in order to make this impossible idea plausible to him.
DR. HOFFMANN: Mr. President, if I remember correctly, I have already asked these questions which Mr. Hardy is asking now and the Tribunal was of the opinion that they did not serve to clarify the issue. I believe that the Prosecution must be in the same position and I therefore ask that this question not be permitted, otherwise, I would have asked it this morning.
THE PRESIDENT: It seems to me that these questions are entirely different from those propounded this morning by the defense. The objection will be over-ruled. Counsel may proceed. If counsel for the defense feels there are any questions he should ask, he will have an opportunity on re-direct examination of the witness.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q May I ask you, Dr. Pokorny, did you write this letter or did Voigt write this letter to Himmler?
A I wrote this letter. It is a reaction to the impressions which I was given by Voigt's statements. Just a moment, please, I have not finished my answer yet. I imagined at the time that that would be possible only by giving Himmler an idea, which he would have to think about for months and years in the hope of a sensational success, but an idea which would not have this success. This accounts for the letter being in this form. I quite understand that you do not understand the formulation of the letter, but I have testified it was not possible for us to combat these measures we heard about in any other way than this.
Q Now, Doctor, I am having a great deal more difficulty that I did before. Now, it is you contention that you wrote this letter and you hoped that Himmler would sit back, read the letter and would be confused he would stop the experiments, which you say were going on and endeavor in two or three years to determine in his own mind whether or not he would use Caladium seguinum to conduct future sterilizations; was that your method to sabotage the effort?
A Yes, that is what I mean to say. The necessary preparations were so enormous and so difficult that a reasonable method would have required years before it was found, aside from the fact that Caladium cannot be used for sterilization
Q Just a moment; how much time would it take a person to experiment with Caladium seguinim on one human being?
A On one human being?
Q Yes.
A That was the risk that existed. That could have been done
Q Just a moment, answer my question before you go into detail. How long would it have taken to perform an experiment with Caladium seguinum on one human being?
A 218 days.
Q 218 days? How long would it have taken to get the equipment ready to start the experiment?
A I have already told you it required fresh sap. This was please, Mr. Hardy, let me finish my answer. This fresh sap cannot be used on human beings, since human beings are not the same as rats, because fresh sap contains tetanus and gangrene, and so forth, I don't need to go into that, it would have required preparation, but because of my botannical knowledge, I knew something about the plant. It is a plant of a group of 27 tropical plants which were formerly used as decorative plants in Europe and are not cultivated any more. In all of Germany only Madaus could have a few of these plants. It is difficult to reproduce this plant for that reason alone and it would be difficult to obtain the necessary number of plants.
Q Well just a moment. Madaus might have had a sufficient number of plants to immediately go to work so that Himmler could have gotten his plants from Madaus, isn't that correct?
A I doubt it.
Q You know as a matter of fact Himmler did send his people to Madaus organization to work there. Do you know that?
A I saw that from the document.
Q But you don't think it is possible Himmler could have gotten his preparations ready much sooner or do you think he could have used Caladium seguinum in an experiment on human beings in the same manner he would have on rats?
A Preliminary experiments would have been necessary, especially extensive animal experiments would have been necessary. What we have here that is a scientific work. That is not even the basis of an hypothesis. One knows nothing about the causative agency. I assume it was a leucocytes. Whether this poison or the poison is one substance or whether it reacts to heat, cold or chemical influence or not, whether it works alone or together with some other substance, those are all factors which would have to be tested and any such test would have taken months so that this experiment in the case of Caladuim specifically would have required an enormous amount of time. Let me remind you of penicillin which went very quickly. With Caladium it is not so.
Q Try to be brief in your answers, doctor. Madaus and Kock were were known specialists in this field, weren't they?
A In the homeopathic field, yes.
Q Were you a specialist in this field? Were you considered to be a great expert in Germany in this field? Had you ever been heard from by anybody in this particular field?
A I really cannot call myself a big specialist in the field but I had the literature. I had the botannical knowledge and as I have testified I worked for a pharmaceutical firm in Neugiene and was very close friends with one of the very best pharmacologists and I had as much knowledge as I needed for this work.
Q And you stat that the publication of Madaus and Koch in the experimental magazine which is defense Exhibit 16, that is Porkorny Exhibit No. 16 is unsound scientifically, do you state that?
A Let us say I hold the opposite view scientifically.
Q Did you ever see Caladium other than in pictures?
A I have already said that is one of the 27 plants from the Amazon district
Q Please doctor, I have asked you a very simple question. I am trying to expedite this examination so that we can finish in a rather short time and I have asked you a very simple question. Did you ever see the Caladium plant itself? Now you cam simply answer by saying yes or no, whether you have read about it or have seen pictures of it I am not interested. Kindly follow my question and make an attempt to answer it specifically and we will be through much quicker and reach an understanding much quicker. Now have you ever seen the plant Caladium seguinum yourself?
A This is an excellent picture but I have never seen it personally.
Q Have you ever worked with it?
A No.
Q Have you ever look at it yourself?
A No.
Q Then you don't know the effect of it other than what you have read in literature, is that right?
A On the basis of the analysis of the paper it was possible for me to form a judgment of this type of experiment and the effectiveness of the use of Caladium.
Q Then you are definit in your statement that Caladium under no circumstances would effectively sterilize a person?
A Caladium cannot.
Q And you feel you know more about the effects of Caladium than Madaus and Koch?
A Possibly, yes.
Q Do you know the difference between sterilization and castration?
A Yes, what kind of sterilization do you mean? There are distinctions there too.
Q Well is castration distinguished from sterilization?
A Yes.
Q Castration is the sterilization of a male or a female individual by removal or destruction of the tissues of the reproductive organ, isn't it?
A No, that is wrong, removal is not necessary. One merely needs to separate them. There are several methods, the method in use in America -
Q I said removal or destruction. I didn't say exclusively removal, I said removal or destruction of the reproductive organ. This is the definition given by Albert Schoenberg in Lasaris, and printed in his manual, X-ray Therapy, volume one, and Schoenberg in his manual X-ray Therapy, the definition they give for castration is the sterilization of a male or female individual by removal or destruction of the tissues of the reproductive organ.
A The definition is essentially correct yes, but castration and sterilization are not synonomous.
Q Do you exclude the possibility that the use of Caladium might have had a castrating effect or was your research extensive enough for that?
A In the first place I performed no research at all but if you will think that a young rat weighing 150 grams for 218 days is under treatment and there is no effect yet then you can assume that the drug has no effect.
Q How is caladium administered?
A Madaus and Koch used it in two ways, as an injection and per os, by mouth.
Q Then after reading the Madaus-Koch publication you could not determine that the effect of caladium quite corresponded to a castration? You excluded that possibility entirely.
A Yes, I can prove that immediately. That was included in what I was not allowed to testify before. According to this work the effect of Caladium on male animals is sterilization but on female animals it is lutenizing it docs not destroy but on the contrary it promotes and that is ridiculous.
If a thing is effective, it has the same effect on men and women.
Q Dr. Porkorny, did you ever hear of a chemist named Taubock, Karl Wilhelm Friederich Taubock?
A Taubock, no.
Q. I would like to read you an affidavit by Tauboeck who has worked on this drug and worked on it with Madaus concerning the efficacy and see whether or not you disagree with him. This is Document NO-3963, Your Honor, offered as Prosecution Exhibit 528 for identification.
THE PRESIDENT: The number you assign to this is identification 528?
MR. HARDY: Yes.
Q. (Cont'd) I will turn to paragraph number 3 which outlines the qualifications of the affiant Tauboeck in that he was a biochemist and botanist in the biological laboratory of I.G. Farben. Now, if you will turn to paragraph number 4, and I will quote therefrom:
"In the fall of 1942 I was instructed by the director of my laboratory, Dr. Mueller-Cunradi, to devote my time to research on the effective substance from the plant caladium seguinum. At the beginning of November 1942 I was sent to Dr. Schamberger of the Research Institute Grunewald/Berlin for the purpose of obtaining further information. The Research Institute Grunewald was a cover name for a camouflaged SS office. The address was Berlin-Grunewald, Delbrueckstrasse 6. There I was told that this plant was to be used for sterilizing mental patients. In order to obtain further information about the progress of experiments with caladium seguinum which had already taken place, I had to visit the firm Madaus in Dresden-Radebeul, together with Dr. Schamberger and another SS man. This firm had already made animal experiments with this plant and published the results in a medical journal in 1941. I was introduced to Mr. Madaus as Dr. Weiss, so that nobody would know that I was an employee of I.G. Farben. The senior pharmacologist of Mr. Madaus asked us, "You must be a commission from SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl," to which the SS men replied "yes". The pharmacologist went on to tell us that a few days previously Pohl himself had visited Mr. Madaus together with several other people and had mentioned the especial urgency of this work. Furthermore, while visiting Mr. Madaus I checked all the equipment and experiments in the course of one day. By careful examination of sections of mice and rats and of the histological pre parations, I was convinced that the publications of Mr. Madaus were perfectly true.
By this examination I, as a specialist in this field, gained the conviction that sterilization with caladium seguinum is no Utopia, but something which is quite within the bounds of possibility.
On the return journey from Dresden to Berlin the SS men revealed to me that this research was being carried out on the express order of Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler in order to suppress birth among the Eastern nations. After this fact had been revealed to me, I was sworn to secrecy. I was furthermore informed at the Research Institute Grunewald-Berlin that the first preparations were to be supplied as soon as possible, as the Reichsfuehrer SS had ordered the testing of the new method on inmates of concentration camps to take place at once."
Now, paragraph number 5:
"In order to point out the effectiveness and practical possibility of using caladium seguinum as a sterilization drug, I would like first of all to go into the subject of the history of this plant. Before doing so, however, I would like to add that the caladium seguinum is not to be considered as a sterilization drug in the ordinary sense of the word, but as a castration drug. This is evident from the fact that the experiments carried out by the firm Madaus have clearly shown that a destruction of the sexual glands of the experimental animals occurred which is equivalent to the surgical removal of such glands."
And then he goes into the history of the plant, and in paragraph 6 he states:
"Inspired by this experience of the Brazilian natives the firm Madaus carried out their experiments on animals. The results obtained by the firm Madaus, which I have seen with my own eyes, confirm the effectiveness of the drug (caladium seguinum) as a means of sterilization for human beings."
And he goes on extensively to give his reasons which Your Honors can read, and I won't take up this time to read now.
Now, do you think that this affiant has also misunderstood the effec tiveness of caladium seguinum?
DR. HOFFMANN: Mr. President, I ask that the defendant be given an opportunity to read all of this affidavit. There are a number of paragraphs which do not confirm the opinion of the prosecution. This reading might have a suggestive effect on the defendant.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel will be furnished with a copy of this translation in German. The Tribunal has it and counsel may have the copy of it, of course, and the defendant may certainly read it.
DR. HOFFMANN: I ask that he be given an opportunity to read all of it.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes indeed, I said that he will be furnished with a copy of this affidavit in the German language. That is available and he may read it. He may have it and keep it in his file and read all of it, of course.
I see no occasion, counsel, for the defendant to be making extensive notes on this affidavit. He would have a chance to discuss the affidavit later. You desire that he have time to read it, but--
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I have only perhaps one or two questions to put to him concerning the affidavit. Defense counsel may well put other questions to him in re-direct examination.
DR. HOFFMANN: Mr. President, I merely wanted him to have an opportunity to look it over because Mr. Hardy asked his question immediately.
THE PRESIDENT: But he is now making extensive notes on it.
MR. HARDY: While he is reading it over, Your Honor, I would like to call your attention to paragraph number 11 and read that into the record also. The other paragraphs refer to some of the misgivings concerning the use of caladium seguinum by the affiant and the reasons why perhaps some of the tests by Madaus and Koch were unsuccessful. The paragraph number 11 is one that I think is important for the record. I will read it:
"As a result of all examples and explanations mentioned I am of the opinion that mass production of a castrating preparation from caladium seguinum in Germany or in the German occupied countries is no dream, but could easily have been put into practice.
Another proof of the harmfulness of the caladium poison is the fact that the Madaus examinations confirmed beyond doubt the castrative effect of caladium despite all the shortcomings already described. All this made me realize at once the criminal character of such research and for this reason did not carry it out as far as my specific order was concerned. The SS, however, took a great interest in this matter. I received my orders as an employee of the I.G. Farben Industrie from the chief of the security police, first through the camouflaged office of the Research Institute Grunewald-Berlin and later direct. I know, however, that the firm Madaus placed their orders through SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl separately and am not acquainted with the development of this matter."
Q. (By Mr. Hardy) Now you, witness, have read this affidavit. Do you think that the affiant is incorrect in that he states that the drug caladium seguinum would have a castrative effect?
A. Quite.
Q. When you wrote this letter, Document NO-035, which is in Document Book Number 6, to Himmler, did you anticipate that Himmler would hand it over to experts for study?
A. That's what I thought, yes.
Q. Weren't you afraid that Himmler might find out that you were making an attempt to hoodwink him?
A. I have two things to say to that. That is why the letter is put in this form, and that is why it says that as a German doctor and Oberarzt of the Wehrmacht I pledge myself to secrecy. That I was in danger in this matter I quite realized. There could be two reasons: one, that Himmler wanted to get rid of a person who knew about the secret; and the other, if the swindle had been discovered, then there would have been punishment.
Q. And you would have been in been in serious danger had Himmler realized that caladium seguinum was not effective and that you were attempting merely to sabotage his efforts, is that correct?
A. Yes, one can assume that.
Q: And you were willing to take this chance even though you knew that Himmler would as soon kill a person as not?
A: I was ready to take any consequences.
Q: When did you divorce your first wife, Dr. Pokorny?
Q: In the middle of 1935. The divorce became effective the first of April 1936.
Q: When did the Nurnberg laws go into effect?
A: I do not know. I studied the Nurnberg laws when they became of significance for me, that is, for my children,
Q: Did they go into effect in the year 1935?
A: I do not know. I read them. I was in Czechoslovakia. We didn't have them. They didn't touch me at the time. I don't know whether they were issued at that time. I probably read them in 1939 - 1939, I think.
Q: And you state the reasons for your divorce were not for National Socialistic reasons?
A: Nothing whatever.
Q: Were they for what purpose - or for what reason did you secure a divorce from your first wife?
A: I have testified that our characters developed in different directions.
Q: You mean infidelity?
A: No not infidelity. Those were secondary consequences.
Q: What was your second wife's name?
A: Trux was her maiden name.
Q: How do you spell that, please?
A: T-r-u-x.
Q: And you married her in 1943?
A: September 1943.
Q: Could you tell us whether or not the name Ulzeva means anything to you. Spelled U-l-z-o-v-a.
A: Yes
Q: What does that name mean to
A: Yes.
Q: What does that name mean to you?
A: That is the lady to whom I was engaged at one time, a Czech lawyer.
Q: When was that?
A: That was about 1936 to 1940. I don't quite understand what that has to do with this trial. I am not being tried because of my divorce.
Q: Just a moment. What was her job? Was she an Aryan and wasn't she a lady district judge?
A: Yes.
Q: Now you have told this Tribunal a story concerning communications by your first wife in the year 1942 and that she was in Prague and called you on the telephone and was in dire need of assistance. Is that right?
A: That was right. I can't give the exact date. It was 25, 26, or possibly 24 January 1942.
Q: Well, that was in 1942, January 1942, And then an SS man or some officer came to you and warned you not to go to see your wife in Prague as he intercepted the telephone message. Is that right?
An That was on the same day, in the evening. I think it was about 6:30 or 7.
Q: And what did he tell you he would do to you if you went to see your wife in Prague?
A: He said that I would be shot in my consulting room.
Q: What was his rank, do you remember?
A: I don't know.
Q: Captain? Was he a Lieutenant? or a Sgt.?
A: He had a black uniform coat. His collar was turned up. He showed me his credentials. He told me what he had to say and went away again.
Q: And then you as a result of that could not muster up sufficient courage to go to your wife's or your former wife's, assistance in Prague?
A: That was not possible since I could assume that my house would be guarded that night and if I had gone out with the car it would not have been necessary to help my wife.
Q: But you were the man who had sufficient amount of courage to write a letter to no less a man than the Reichsfuehrer-SS in an effort to sabotage his sterilization program, knowing fully well that if you were discovered the results would be fatal that your family perhaps would be threatened? Yet, you didn't have sufficient courage to go to the aid of your wife in Prague. How do you reconcile this, doctor?
A: The situation is entirely different in respect to Himmler than the situation I found myself since I knew that my house would certainly be watched and that any attempt to get to Prague would have the most serious consequences.
Q: Now you have stated here that in the spring of 1942 you received an inquiry regarding the production of the drug. What drug are you referring to in that inquiry?
A: I testified that I did not understand this question because I did not know that the Madaus firm had a drug called caladium-D-1. Consequently I did not understand this incident.
Q: Why would Himmler or an SS agency have to write to you to determine the producing of a drug when they themselves had the publications from Madaus and Koch. And, in addition, thereto, they already had men and representatives going to the Madaus Company to work?
A: I wondered about that too. If I had got a paper in my hand filed by Madaus I would have assumed that Madaus produced the drug. That's why I wondered. Besides I think you are mistaken in the time of the document. The first representative to the Madaus firm was later.
Q: Well don't you suppose that Himmler had contacted Madaus after receiving your letter.
This letter is dated October 1941 and there is a letter on page 5 of Document Book 6 which is Document NO-036 wherein Himmler personally addresses a letter to Oswald Pohl telling Oswald Pohl to get in touch with Dr. Madaus about the publications and offer him possibilities of doing research with the Reich Physician SS on xeiminals who would have to be sterilized in any case. Now didn't it seem unnecessary he would have to refer to you when you were, as you state, somebody who had read the publications?
A: I don't understand your question. I wondered at receiving this inquiry. Besides you see a certain amount of success here already. Himmler had gone into the idea if experiments were to be performed they would be performed on criminals in as much as they had to be sterilized anyway.
Q: That's good you point that out, doctor. That is an aid to the Prosecution rather than to the defense. Himmler here is conducting human experiments as you point out, and here you have proposed he continue further experiments with caladium. Well this indicates he is following through the program given to him, as he says in the first sentence of this letter to Pohl: "I read Dr. Pokorny's very interesting memorandum ...." Your memorandum had considerable effect on him, didn't it, according to this letter?
A: It was supposed to.
Q: I have no further question your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may redirectly examine the witness.
DR. HOFFMANN: Mr. President, I have no questions. I should like to call a witness now but I don't know whether it would be expedient or not to call him at this time.
MR. HARDY: If your Honor pleases, is it the witness Trux that will appear first?
DR. HOFFMANN: Yes.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. SAUTER for the defendant Blome:
Q: Witness, I am afraid I have to ask you a few questions arising from your answers to the cross examination by the Prosecution. The Prosecution called you an expert and questioned you about things regarding the medical profession and you answered these questions. Witness do you really consider yourself an expert for such professional questions for the German Medical profession during the Hitler time?
A: I did not answer as an expert. I do not consider myself an expert. I answered merely as a private citizen, as common sense dictates. That my testimony is colored to a certain degree will probably not surprise you since you have learned my life history today.
Q: Witness, I believe you realize that the Prosecution is hardly interested in what you think as a private citizen.
A: I don't know what the prosecution is interested in.
Q: But that is quite clear, witness, you were asked because of special knowledge which you were assumed to have and you answered the questions. Now, I would like to ask you a few questions on this subject. Where did you study?
A. In Prague.
Q. In Prague. Were you born in Prague?
A. No, I was born in Vienna.
Q. You were born in Vienna. In Prague and Vienna. Did you know German conditions of the medical profession, medical science, and the medical faculties before 1933 from your own observation?
A. Yes.
Q. Where?
A. From congresses, visits to the universities. I was the senior member of the dermatological Society in Czechoslovakia. I had scientific contact, not, of course, to the extent that other people did.
Q. Did you attend German universities as a student?
A. No, I only visited them briefly.
Q. What do you mean visit, two hours? Did you just look at the building, or were you there for 6 months to learn how they operated? Please explain that.
A. To be informed about German science and research before 1933, one does not have to be in the anteroom of a university. One can judge that from quite a different point of view.
Q. From Vienna and Prague?
A. Yes, and from the Reich.
Q. But you didn't live in the Reich, you didn't study in the Reich?
A. But as a person of scientific interests, I was informed.
Q. Did you have insight into the medical training, scientific training of young doctors in German universities?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. By visiting a German university here and there, when you can't tell me how long the visit was?
A Because we had a certain contact with our German colleagues. Dr. Sauter, you will concede that the first German university was formed in Prague.
Q We don't have to go back to the Middle Ages. I am talking about your own studies.
A The discovery of America was a very important event. The founding of the first German University was also an important event, and that was in Prague.
Q You said before that the medical training of young doctors in the Third Reich receded in its level; and you said that on various occasions you talked to medical students; did I understand you correctly?
A Yes.
Q When was that? What years?
A These medical students that was in 1943; the beginning of '43.
Q '43. And did these medical students in 1943 have insight into conditions before 1933?
A I can't tell you that. They came from the student company in Leipzig.
Q But you can judge that, Doctor, if there were students in 1943 studying medicine, then before 1933 they were children, and children are not able to form comparative judgment on the question of medical training.
A Dr. Sauter; I was not referring to the comparisons which these medical students drew. I was the one who drew the comparison, what I know from earlier, and what I observed on these medical students. There is no purpose in wasting a great deal of this talk on this. One doesn't have to generalize. Far be it from me to run down German medicine and science and the medical profession. But one cannot deny you can't tell me how long the visit was?
A. Because we had a certain contact with our German colleagues. Dr. Sauter, you will concede that the first German university was formed in Prague.
Q. We don't have to go back to the Middle Ages. I am talking about your own studies.
A. The discovery of America was a very important event. The founding of the first German university was also an important event, and that was in Prague.
Q. You said before that the medical training of young doctors in the Third Reich receded in its level, and you said that on various occasions you talked to medical students, did I understand you correctly?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that? What years?
A. These medical students that was in 1943, the beginning of '43.
Q '43. And did these medical students in 1943 have insight into conditions before 1933?
A. I can't tell you that. They came from the student company in Leipzig.
Q. But you can judge that, Doctor, if there were students in 1943 studying medicine, then before 1933 they were children, and children are not able to form comparative judgment on the question of medical training.
A. Dr. Sauter, I was not referring to the comparisons which these medical students drew. I was the one who drew the comparison, what I knew from earlier, and what I observed on these medical students. There is no purpose in wasting a great deal of this talk on this. One doesn't have to generalize. Far be it from me to run down German medicine and science and the medical profession. But one cannot deny BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Doctor, you spoke of the interference by the Nazis in the professional organizations. Did you have any close insight into German professional organizations in the Reich?
A. Yes, they came to us to our great joy in October 1938. If you want the exact answer to this question, I can help you. A certain Dr. Kress came to Aussig, to the KVD, and in the first meeting which we attended it was said that the exaggerated specialization had to be abolished, that the good old German general practioner had to return. I have nothing against a good old general practioner, but any sensible human being will not object to the development of medicine through specialization. The specialist is nothing but the expondnt of the clinic in the country, and what he does not achieve he sends to the clinic. Not all the measures which were taken by the German Reich Medical Association were ideal, not to mention what affected me personally.
Q. Doctor, you said that after 1933 people were appointed to the top positions of professional organizations who were no longer elected, but appointed, and consequently one could not judge whether they owed their office to personal efficiency or to other circumstances.
A. Yes.
Q. One of these persons was your co-defendant Prof. Blome.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you mean to say on the basis of your outstanding knowledge of conditions that Professor Blome is in any way responsible for the lowering of the medical profession which you allege took place.
A. I never said that. But you will admit that people were in charge of things of whom we never heard anything.