Q Although there was no supervision exercized by the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service or the Army Medical Inspectorate, I assume that certain points of contact existed, considering the SS divisions which were committed at the front, is that correct, and what type of contacts were they?
A This assumption is correct. The divisions and corps of the Waffen SS were parts of the armed forces committed to the front. The soldiers of the Waffen SS, therefore, had to be cared for in the hygienic and prophylactic field and had to come up to the requirements which affected the rest of the armed forces. They mainly referred to protective vaccination, to delousing measures, to certain measures of quarantine when returning from the front, et cetera. For those reasons it was always necessary that a representative of the medical service kept in touch with the operational head office of the Army Inspectorate.
Q Is it correct if I say that we were concerned with questions of medical tactics and medical service?
A Yes, only questions of that nature.
Q In other words, these were points of contact which referred to a cooperation. There was no point of contact which went beyond that, which indicated a cooperation of the medical service with the other armed forces?
A No, that was not the case.
Q In the Ding diary which was mentioned here, the Weigl typhus vaccine is repeatedly mentioned, which originally was used by the OKH Institute at Krakow or Lemberg. I should like to clarify that in spite of the use of that Weigl vaccine in Block 46, this can not be explained by saying that there was a connection between Block 46 and the Institute at Krakow of the OKW, that there was any relationship as to the furnishing of the vaccine. I ask you to tell me whether there existed an official directive of the SS which settled generally the delivery of vaccines?
A Since 1936 or 1937 there was an order of the Medical Service of the Waffen SS, one of the first orders in that field, which became known to me, to the effect that the units of the Waffen SS did receive their medical requirements or drugs or vaccines only from the central medical depot of the Waffen SS which was in Berlin. A direct requisition from any firm or any other producer was prohibited. I also know on the basis of what the Chief of that medical depot told me, that repeatedly serious difficulties occurred with army physicians who, for some reason brought about by personal connections, ordered such medicants directly from the firm which produced them, and that was prohibited.
Q Is it correct that the Weigl vaccine in the end of December 1941 was considered as the best and most approved typhus vaccine at that time?
A In Germany we only had that vaccine available. The other products were still in their early stages and didn't go beyond the laboratory stage.
Q Did the Weigel vaccine need any further examination as to its effectiveness at that period of time?
A The effectiveness of this vaccine was very wellknown. A repeated examination was no longer necessary.
Q In other words, wherever this Weigel vaccine appeared, it was only used for the purpose of checking the effectiveness of other vaccines by comparison?
AAt that time when the first conversation took place between Grawitz and me, mention was made of our desire to produce; and it was also mentioned that the aim of our production was that the Weigel vaccine be taken as a measure for our intended achievement. We wanted to achieve as much as the army had achieved with the Weigel vaccine; and I therefore assumed that in case of the later discussions as to the individual series of experiments in which I did not participate and about which I cannot testify, the directive was given to Ding in that form. I was always of the opinion that the Weigel vaccine need have no examination but that rather Ding had the intention of comparing the other vaccines with the effectiveness of the Weigel vaccine.
If I understood you correctly, the procedure was handled in such a manner that after Ding had received the order to carry out the experiments in Block 46 he approached the Central Medical Depot of the Waffen SS in order to get from there the Weigel vaccine which he needed for purposes of comparison. That I would assume because I know that there was always Weigel vaccine available, at least during that period of time, in the year 1942.
A Prof. Handloser as Army Medical Inspector or as Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Services, did he have any insight into the medical research system of the Waffen SS?
I am here differentiating between official connections which do not exist.
A No, neither did he have any insight.
Q Did you ever have any discussions with Prof. Handloser?
A Yes, I think two discussions took place which referred to general measures concerning the rear areas of the Eastern territories. No research questions were discussed at that time. Nothing was said about any typhus series of experiments or anything like that.
Q Nor did you speak about the experiments that were conducted at Buchenwald?
No, for the most part I had no knowledge of them. I therefore couldn't discuss them.
Q Now, you know that the prosecutor maintains that the experiments in the concentration camp of Buchenwald can be explained because of the instigation of the Wehrmacht. This was done on the occasion of a conference in which you allegedly participated and which is recorded in Ding's Diary in its first entry of the 29th of December 1941. I am asking you, is Prof. Handloser, in whatever capacity, mixed up in any way in the suggestions, intention, or execution of these experiments of Dr. Ding's in Buchenwald?
A I never heard the name of Prof. Handloser in that connection. It is highly improbable that he participated in this affair in any way, for I know that Grawitz was anxiously safeguarding his own jurisdiction.
Q As you have already testified during direct examination, it is established that the order for the beginning and the execution of these experiments emanated from Himmler through Grawitz?
A Yes.
Q You know the entries in the Ding Diary of the 29th of December 1941?
A Yes.
Q As participants in this conference, Prof. Handloser, Dr. Conti, Prof. Reiter, Prof. Gildemeister, and you are mentioned. You know that it says there that it was decided to conduct experiments on human beings. In your direct examination, you discussed the question of the Ding Diary, its probative value; and I shall not revert to this again in detail. But I do want to ask you, Is it correct if I conclude on the basis of this examination and your answers that the first diary entry of the 29th of December 1941 must of necessity have been an invention by Dr. Ding?
A On the basis of the document submitted by the prosecution and on the basis of the document submitted by the defense counsel, we know about the real course of this conference. There weren't any more participants there than in the documents that we have available here. The conclusion is that neither any cremium had met, which Ding mentioned, nor that Ding himself participated. How he came to make that entry is beyond my imagination.
Q The prosecution asserts that two conferences had taken place on that day, one in the Reich Ministry of the Interior, the final location of Bieber, and the other, where the people participated, in Ding's Diary was on the date of the 29th of December, 1941. What I am asking you is is, is it impossible that this actually took place?
A I don't think it is probable that any second such conference took place, for the simple reason that from the material which Dr. Demnitz had it can be seen that on the 6th of January I was expected back from Kiev, from the Ukraine, to Berlin.
This is a distance of more than 1,200 kilometers. In other words, it takes some time to get back by car, especially in the winter, considering the difficult situation. Therefore, it i s highly improbable that I was in Berlin on the 29th of December 1941. I can say with absolute certainty that one week later I never in my life did participate in any conference of that nature. For that reason I do not believe that any second conference had taken place.
Q Now, with reference to the conference in the Reich Ministry of the Interior, where we have Bieber's file Exhibit 54 of the prosecution and also your documents, 63, 62, reports of Dr,: Demnitz and Dr. Zahn, you know that it says in Bieber's file notation, "An experimental plan was discussed with Dr, Mrugowsky." With whom did you discuss that experimental plan?
A This plan for experiments was discussed with Dr. Gildemeister, the head of the Robert Koch Institute, who at the same time was the typhus adviser in the Ministry of the Interior.
Q When this conference took place on the 29th of December, 1941, had this plan of experiments already been discussed, or had discussions of that plan already been concluded?
A Discussions had been concluded some time earlier because Demnitz already had given me the first five hundred portions of the typhus vaccines for that purpose on the 29th of December, 1941. Therefore, the experiments must have been discussed much earlier, about the end of November.
Q Was Prof. Handloser, as Medical Army Inspector -at that time there was no Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service -- or in his capacity as the Army Medical Inspector, participating in this plan for the experiment in any way?
A No. Only two people were represented, both from the civilian sector. These were the administrative representatives for the Interior Reich Zone and representatives of the Germans who were to be sent to the occupied Eastern territories in order to execute administrative duties there. In other words, the Wehrmacht or the army had nothing to do with that.
Q Did you discuss the plan for the experiments with Prof. Handloser, one of the representatives, or his agencies?
A I don't remember.
Q How is it that you were not participating in this conference of the 29th of December 1941?
A recording to the list of participants, it was only at a conference between the Ministry of the Interior and the Industry. Since I neither belonged to the Ministry of the Interior nor was remember of the industry, there was no reason for me to be invited.
Q Whore was Ding on the 29th of December, 1941?
A Ding at that time belonged to my institute. He had been detailed to Gildemeister a short time earlier, that is, to the Robert Koch Institute, in order to train himself in typhus questions; and I think that at that time he probably was on his Christmas vacation.
Q He was active in the Robert Koch Institute?
A Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, how much longer will the interrogation of this witness continue?
MR. HARDY: I might say at this time that counsel has asked the defendant Mrugowsky if he attended the meeting of 29 December 1941, and Mrugowsky has said, no. And Mrugowsky has said Dr. Ding did not go to the meeting, and Handloser was not at the meeting because he did not know of the meeting. Now he asked him about the other meeting of Demnitz, and the defendant does not know anything about that. I don't know what further information he is looking for, and I don't see any further reason for him to labor on this point.
DR. NELTE: I believe I need not to explain to the Tribunal why I want to know all of this. I am only contending the assertions which were made in the course of the submission of evidence on the part of the crossexamination of the Prosecution. With regard to the typhus conference on 29 December 1941, it is the most important question in the complex of Handloser's case, and I attach value to bringing proof on that, to bring proof on the assertion of the Prosecution to the effect that on 29 December 1941, that two conferences had taken place on that day, that is not only erroneous but can be explained by a forced certification carried out by Dr. Ding. In that connection my questions have to be a little broader than would perhaps be expedient in any other case. I shall need perhaps another quarter of an hour at the most to ask questions of this witness, Professor Mrugowsky.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I submit that counsel's contentions are right, that he is making an attempt to con test the fact of the two conferences.
He asked the witness whether any other conference, and the witness said, no. Now he is attempting to argue with the witness, and he is attempting to examine the witness on that.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning, and at that time the Tribunal will settle the pertinency of any question propounded by counsel.
(The Tribunal recessed until 0930 hours, 2 April 1947)
Corrected copy of transcript for morning session, Court I, 2 April 1947. Please destroy your old copy.
Official-Transcript of the American Military Tribunal I in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 2 April 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I.
Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court room.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain that the defendants are all present in court?
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all the defendants are present in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the presence of all defendants in court. Counsel may proceed with the examination of the witness.
JOACHIM MRUGOSKY - Resumed EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. NELTE (Defense Counsel for defendant handloser):
Q. Witness, the last question I put to you yesterday was my question where Dr. Ding was on the 29th of December, 1941. You answered that he was working at the Hygiene Institute, but simultaneously had been assigned to the Robert Koch Institute for the purpose of his training there. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. I attach importance to clarify how it could have been possible that in Ding's diary there is an entry of the 29th of December 1941 concerning a conference in which professor Handloser allegedly participated. According to Ding's activity and his position on the 29th of December, 1941, did Dr. Ding have knowledge about the conference on 29 Dec. 1941 in the Reich Ministry of the Interior?
A. I don't know that exactly for I personally did not know about that conference. I know, however, that Ding, after his detail to the Robert Koch Institute, maintained a relatively close contact with Professor Gildemeister. It is quite possible that Gildemeister told him the contents of that conference. It is possible that Ding, however, mixed up the contents of what Gildemeister told him and came to a wrong entry.
Q. Mr. President, in Document NO-1321, under Figure 3, it is said that a copy about the conference Bieber, about the conference of the 29th of December, 1941, went to the institute for infectious diseases, the Robert Koch Institute. I wanted to mention that in this connection in order to clarify what the aim of my questioning was. The prosecutor, during his cross-examination of Professor Handloser, on page 3114 of the German transcript, put the following questions...
MR. HARDY: May it please your Honor, I object to this form of cross-examination by Dr. Nelte. Is he now pleading his case or is he examining Dr. Mrugowsky?
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed. Objection over-ruled.
BY DR. NELTE:
Q. This question as to what interest the SS could have in that egg yolk vaccine was put to Professor. Handloser, but I am submitting that question to you because you will be in a better position to answer it.
A. We naturally had a great interest to find out something final about that vaccine. In all our formations we had already used thousands of portions of that vaccine which we received from industry or from the Robert Koch Institute. It is the same situation here as in military life. No weapon is being used unless one knows it exactly. The same applies to the combat of epidemics. As physicians, we don't like to use weapons which we don't know. Therefore, we had great interest in finding out the value of the new vaccine.
Q. The sense of my question was what your own interest was. What you have just stated would mean to say that this was a general interest. I am interested, however, in your own interest.
In what you did on your own initiative.
A. In order to find out what the value of vaccines was I intended to use them on a large scale to discover their value. This research had already been started in December and it became apparent from. Dr. Denmitz' statement that already on the 22nd of December, 1941 that is 8 days before the conference, I had received five hundred portions of vaccines.
Q. That one can see from Dr. Denmitz' report. Now, in Document 64, which was submitted to you, Dr. Zahn is speaking about a large scale experiment, whereas in Bieber's report, an experimental plan is mentioned. Are we concerned there with the same thing?
A. They are different words meaning the same thing.
Q In Dr. Zahn's report on Page 104 which you submitted, which is Document Mrugowsky 64, it is stated Professor Gildemeister maintains that 2700 portions of his vaccine had been used without any ill effects resulting. Professor Kuhne reported that in the months of October and November he used 3,000 portions of the vaccine of the Behring Works without any failures having occurred. Do I understand you correctly if I say that this plan for the experiment, or this large-scale experiment was to be carried out with typhus vaccines which had already been tested out to some considerable extent and had been found to be effective?
A That is correct. It is true that the first experiments had already started by the producers. It becomes apparent from the various statements that German industry only since 1941, that is the year we are speaking about, concerned itself with the manufacture of vaccines of that nature. The typhus period starts in November and December and finds its peak in June. Therefore, up to December we couldn't have practically gathered any experiences regarding that vaccine because the period of epidemics was only just reaching the increased stage. One would have to wait before arriving at any conclusion.
Q Everyone who participated in that meeting in the Reichs' Ministry of the Interior on 29 December 1941 and heard what was being said must assume that one was concerned with a plan for epidemiological experiments on a large scale intended by you with vaccinations against typhus.
A Nothing else could have been mentioned. That is the customary channel used up to that point.
Q Was there any connection between your plan of experiment and the experiments as they were carried out later at Buchenwald?
A No, not at all. This plan was much older, at least four to six weeks older.
Q Is it true that this epidemiological experiment was carried out by you completely independent of the experiments at Buchenwald?
A It was started independently and was carried out independently.
Q You know that on the 5th of May, 1942, that is Document 10 Mrugowsky, a letter was sent to Dr. Conti and Dr. Grawitz and Dr. Genzken under the heading, "Testing of Vaccines." It was also sent to the Robert Koch Institute and the Army Typhus Research Institute at Krakow, as well as the Behring Works. You also sent this letter to Professor Eyer, who was an O. K. H. official at Krakow. Let me at first ask you, could the recipient of this letter gain the impression that he was here concerned of necessity with the result of the experimental plan which was discussed on the 29th of December, 1941?
A It can only be seen from this letter that these vaccines, that were discussed, were actually tested. They were tested on a relatively small amount of persons, I think thirty or thirty-five people. No more could be derived from that letter. There can be no question of largescale experiments with that vaccine, because thirty persons cannot be considered a large-scale experiment. There was no question of any artificial infections. For that was just the reason Grawitz ordered me to change Ding's original report. It could not be derived from that.
Q I understand that. But you are speaking about experiments because of an epidemic?
A There were innumerable epidemics at that time.
Q At any rate Professor Eyer had to conclude, or rather not conclude that any experiments were being carried out at Buchenwald.
A He couldn't conclude that in any way. The recipient could only come to the conclusion that the person mentioned in the report had merely compared a few vaccines with one another. He took notice of that and that probably was all.
Q This letter dated the 5th of May, 1942, could give a third party the impression as if Professor Eyer were sending a vaccine, the Weigl vaccine, for the purpose of its being tested. Was that the case?
A No, no, that was not the case. I already said yesterday there was a general directive to the effect that S. S. units and agencies could only be supplied by their own medical depot in the SS.
Q On the basis of the contents of this circular and the result of this test, could Professor Eyer receive a hint to report anything about that to the Army Medical Inspectorate?
A I cannot say that. Had I received any such letter I certainly wouldn't have done anything. I would have merely acknowledged the letter and then filed it away.
Q Let us assume which was not done that Professor Eyer sent this letter to the Army Medical Inspectorate, and let us further assume that they submitted that letter to Professor Handloser. With reference to Handloser's knowledge of things in which he didn't participate, I want to ask you the following. Could he conclude from this circular as it is formulated that there was any possibility of any impermissible experiments on human beings?
A No, I already said that, that he couldn't do that, because that was the purpose of the circular.
Q Looking at your letter dated the 5th of May, 1942, and looking at the order of Grawitz, I am asking you was this form of report, this form of a camouflaged report, a result of the orders for secrecy that no reports were to reach the outside of what was going on in S. S. camps and concentration camps?
A Yes.
Q In Dr. Rudolf Brandt's statement correct that there was a special order by Himmler according to which the physicians active in concentration camps were obliged to keep a strict secrecy towards every third party, even including S. S. physicians who were not active in the concentration camps?
A That did not only refer to the physicians, but to every member of the staff of concentration camps. This order already originates from a time prior to the war.
I may refer to Dr. Horn's testimony here yesterday who very clearly stated that even members of the S. S. and Waffen S. S. could not enter concentration camps. That was the reason. His testimony was correct.
Q Do you know for what reason Professor Eyer and Dr. Schmidt went to Buchenwald on the 8th of February, 1943?
A Yes, we were then concerned with the pending commitment of S. S. divisions in the German Africa Corps. Extensive preparations were made in the medical field. I already testified during my direct examination that the protective vaccines against yellow fever played a particular part there. This was technically somewhat difficult since the vaccine had to be kept in a very cooled state. That is naturally very difficult in a warm climate.
A special transport vessel had been developed which was under low pressure. It was rather difficult to handle because it could easily be broken when not handled skilfully. In order to instruct the physicians to handle this container, Dr. Eyer was in Buchenwald, and Dr. Schmidt. Dr. Schmidt said that many physicians were there whom he instructed in the use of that vessel.
Q Whom Prof. Eyer instructed
A Yes, Professor Eyer was instructing the physicians about that technique.
Q In other words, you are confirming what Dr. Bernard Schmidt said on the witness stand?
A Yes, I think that is correct.
Q You remember that a contingent of lice supposedly arrived at Buchenwald from Krakow or rather two contingents of lice which were later destroyed. In this connection I want to ask you only whether you know Dr. Haas?
A Yes, I know Dr. Haas.
Q Where did Dr. Haas live? Where was he active, and what was the position he held?
A Dr. Haas came from the Behring Works at Marburg, He was a young lecturer on hygiene and bacteriology at Marburg, and later he became the head of a branch of the Behring Works at Lemberg. This, of course, was private industry. It has nothing to do with the army. As far as I know, the Army was producing vaccines in Lemberg, too, at a laboratory of Professor Weigl. These two agencies, however, are not identical.
Q The submission of evidence has shown that Professor Weigl was attached from the ARMY MEDICAL INSPECTORATE to the Behring Works in order to train personnel there temporarily. We were here only concerned to find out whether these two institutes had anything to do with one another.
That is to say, whether the Behring works at Lemberg had any official connection to the OKH institute at Lemberg.
A No. As far as I know, these were two separate institutions.
Q On the basis of an entry in Ding's diary regarding the results of tests on yellow fever vaccine, I am asking you the following: is it correct that you were sent these results and passed them on to Dr. Schmidt?
A The results of these tests were received by me, but as far as I remember, I transmitted them to our main medical depot which was actually supplying the vaccine, and that include Ding. I don't remember having had any discussions or correspondence with Schmidt about or anyone else of the Medical Inspectorate.
DR. NELTE: This brings me to the end of my questions on behalf of the Defendant, Handloser, and I now ask the Tribunal to permit me to put two questions to the Defendant on behalf of Professor Brandt since I want to represent Dr. Servatius.
Q I am submitting to you the organization charts made by you concerning a description of the Medical Service of the SS. There you drew a direct relationship of subordination of Reichsarzt-SS Dr. Grawitz, and you placed him under Dr. Karl Brandt. Furthermore, I handed to you the decrees, which were often discussed, about the position of the Reich Commissioner for Health and Medical Services dated the 28th of July.
A I am sorry; I haven't got them.
Q Aren't they before you?
A Yes.
Q These are the documents NO-080, Exhibit of the Pros ecution No.5, and Document 081, Exhibit of the Prosecution 6, and Document NO-082, Exhibit of the Prosecution 7. Could you derive from the decree of 1942 that Dr. Grawitz and therewith according to your chart; the entire Medical Service of the SS was subordinated to Professor Karl Brandt?
You find these questions of competence under paragraphs 5 and 6 of this decree, dated the year 1942.
A This decree of 1942 appoints the CHIEF OF THE ARMY Medical Services, for the Medical Services of the Army, Waffen-SS and organizations attached to the Army. This professional subordination is found at the entry in this chart. It would have been more correct if the line hadn't been drawn directly from Dr. Brandt to Dr. Grawitz but would have gone from Professor Handloser to Dr. Genzken only.
Q During the submission of evidence and according to your questions, it has become clear that this line from Professor Handloser to Genzken only refers to the subordination of the Waffen-SS divisions which were committed at the front.
A Yes, it says so here on the chart.
Q What I am asking you is whether there was a direct relationship of subordination Professor Brandt - Dr. Grawitz
A I don't think such a clear relationship of subordination can be derived from these charts, but I should like to say in that connection that these charts were drawn up during tho later period of my preliminary interrogations. These charts brought about a discussion with the interrogating officer, and we really arranged that the actual situation should be noted down on paper. In that connection I thought it was necessary to point out that Grawitz never would have received any order from Professor Brandt or Handloser never would have accepted any such order because he thought that he only had one chief which was Himmler.