In the latter Koch-Hoven trial of the SS this matter, too, played an important part. I can remember the hasty efforts which started in order to remove these two workshops when the matter, as we would say, was about to blow up in thecamp. There was continuous work for Dr. Hoven and Dr. Ding going on in these two workshops.
Q. Dr. Hoven presumably visited these workshops frequently, didn't he?
A. He was in comparatively close contact with the Capo in Block 46, Otto Dietsch, who was responsible in Block 46 and who was eager to supply the SS leaders with even more goods than they were wishing to have themselves. Otto Dietsch at that time had already been in detention for a period of twenty years.
Q. And then, Dr. Kogon, you mentioned a three-fold position of the defendant Hoven at the camp at Buchenwald. First of all you said he was camp physician; secondly, Ding's deputy, and, thirdly, for some short periods Dr. Polling's representative.
In order to elucidate this point, I have a few questions to present. First of all, do you know how long defendant Hoven represented Lolling?
A. To my recollection only for a very brief period. Unless I am mistaken, it amounted to about six or eight weeks. I assume that this was in 1943.
Q. But then, if I now toll you that it was only four weeks, would you believe that that could be correct, too?
A. Yes, certainly.
Q. And if I go on to tell you that defendant Hoven as deputy for Dr. Lolling was not in a position to give orders and had no executive powers, would you consider that too to be correct?
A. Yes. I can remember that on one occasion there was an investigation of some sort in order to establish whether Dr. Hoven's authority as Dr. Lolling's deputy enabled him to give orders; whether he had given orders; and whether he had been entitled to give orders. Nothing is known to me about the details of this affair. The medical clerk of Dr. Hoven can give you the information you require.
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any further cross examination of this witness?
DR. GEORG FROESCHMANN: Yes, Dr. Froeschmann, defense counsel for Viktor Brack.
THE PRESIDENT: Will counsel's cross examination be bried or will it take longer than seven minutes?
DR. FROESCHMANN: Mr. President, I have only a very few questions. I should think five minutes would suffice.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Witness, you had just talked about the action in May to July, 1941, which had taken place and which could be traced back to a Himmler order;
is that correct?
A. Are you talking about Action 14-F-13?
Q. Yes.
A. first of all, I was told, sir, in the concentration camp at Buchenwald and, secondly, I believe that on one occasion I heard through my friend Ferdinand Roemhild, the medical clerk in the sick bay for prisoners, and saw through him some document to that effect.
Q. Did you, Mr. Witness, have an opportunity to see the wording of this Himmler order?
A. No.
Q. Did you hear about the wording of it from any other person?
A. I cannot answer your question.
Q. Did the wording of Himmler's order come to your knowledge through your friends?
A. The approximate contents.
Q. Will you please tell the Tribunal the approximate contents of this order?
A. I shall have to say that I have very little recollection of this matter. First of all, I cannot tell you exactly what the sources of my knowledge are--whom I cannot recollect for certain.
Q. Well, then, can you remember that the persons had been clearly designated in that order who were now to be sent away on this transport?
A. I know from practical experience gathered when these transports were put together that Jews and invalids were selected; that is to say, Jews and invalids of every nationality and category; in other words, political, criminal, so-called anti-social, Jehovah's Witnesses, and so forth. I do not know from documentary evidence what the detailed designations were.
Q. The last question. Where did these transports go?
A. A Scharfuehrer who accompanied the first transport and then before half a day later returned with a few last belongings of the victims gave us knowledge for the first time of the fact that this was a gassing action in the northeast of Buchenwald, approximately in that direction in any case, and that this was a lunatic asylum or sanitorium. Later on we discovered that there were three sanitoriums which had been employed for this purpose, one at Bamberg, a second one, if I remember rightly, near Pirna, and the name of the third I can no longer recollect.
DR. FROESCHMANN: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess until 1:30 o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 8 January 1947) EUGEN KOGON - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION (continued) BY DR. TIPP (for defendant Schroeder):
Q. I still want to ask a few questions to the witness. This morning in your interrogation you have mentioned a Luftwaffe physician, Dr. Reichelt Will you please tell the Tribunal when Dr. Reichelt appeared for the first time at Block 50 at Buchenwald?
A. As far as I can remember approximately April or May 1944.
Q. What rank did Dr. Reichelt hold at that time as far as you can remember?
A. Oberstabsarzt of the Luftwaffe.
Q. If I have understood you correctly he wore the Luftwaffe uniform?
A. He wore the Luftwaffe uniform.
Q. Can you tell me to what Luftwaffe command Dr. Reichelt belonged or what Luftwaffe headquarters had sent him to Buchenwald?
A. I know that Dr. Reichelt was sent by the Hygienic Institute of the Waffen SS of Berlin to the department for typhus and virus research at Buchenwald and for the specific purpose of producing vaccine and that he, along with many others from the Luftwaffe, had been attached to the SS.
Q. Now have I understood you correctly, witness, if I say that this has not been a medical officer from the Luftwaffe but a former Luftwaffe physician who had been attached to the Waffen SS who probably, for purely technical reasons, were the Luftwaffe uniform?
A. Yes.
Q. My final question. Can you tell me if Dr. Reichelt through his entire activity at Buchenwald were the uniform of the Luftwaffe?
A. He was wearing the uniform of the Luftwaffe until the very end from the autumn of 1944 until the spring of 1945. He was making efforts to be transferred to the SS and he was hoping that he would obtain the rank of Hauptsturmfuehrer in the SS.
Q. To conclude now. Although he was wearing the uniform of the Luftwaffe, he obviously still belonged to the Waffen SS.
A. From the point of discipline he belonged to the Hygienic Institute of Berlin.
Q. I do not have any further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any further cross examination of this witness on the part of any defense counsel?
There being none, Prosecution may proceed.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q. Mr. Kogon, I am not sure that we made perfectly clear on the direct examination just how the hormone experiments were carried out. Can you explain to the Tribunal how these experiments were conducted and what was done to the experimental subjects?
A. May I ask you to put your question, the first part of your question, more precisely because you want to know how were these experiments carried out. That part has been described in detail.
Q. Did they operate on the experimental subjects?
A. The medical experiments were carried out on the experimental persons by it * by ***** of injection of it - by means of giving them drugs.
Q. Did they transfer glands from other persons to the experimental subjects in the homosexual experiments or did they transplant artificial glands?
A. In the case of the homosexual operations they were carried out, if Pf**************** an properly informed, by operation of various types. In many cases artificial synthetic glands were transplanted. The former first mentioned operations were really of a preparatory nature, preparatory for actual operation, namely, for putting artificial glands in.
Q. Can you say whether the two persons who died, died as a result, direct or indirect, from these homosexual experiments?
A. I assume that the exact information about this can be given through
Q. Now, Mr. Kogon, to go to the typhus experiments very briefly, is it not true that reports of the typhus experiments in Block 46 were sent to the office of the Reich physician SS and Police Dr. Grawitz?
A. That is correct.
Q. And Poppendick got a copy of that report?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the typhus experiments in Block 46 continue when Ding made trips away from Buchenwald and Hoven was in charge?
A. Yes.
Q. You have mentioned the name Roemhild. Do you refer to Ferdinand Roemhild?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you say whether Roemhild is well informed on Action 14F13 in Buchenwald?
A. I think I can say that any reaction connected with 14F13 is known to Ferdinand Roemhild. That is because he handled the correspondence and also because he worked in the prisoners' sick bay and also because he was in close contact with the leading men of the legal cabinet administration or their representatives and deputies, and also because he is a man who would watch matters with great care.
Q. Can you also say that Roemhild is well informed on the activities of Hoven in Buchenwald? ,
A. Yes.
MR. McHANEY: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any cross examination on the part of the defense counsel as to the redirect examination by the Prosecution?
Their being none, the Prosecution may call its next witness. The witness is excused.
MR. McHANEY: The Prosecution would like at this time to call a witness to testify with respect to the activities of Dr. Eugen Kogon at Strasbourg Natzweiler, and a small concentration camp by the name of Schirmeck, with the medical clerk of sick bay based on the general condition in the camp and the special condition in sick bay, as well as special conditions connected with this experiment.
I believe to be entitled to the assumption that the experiment led to the death or part of the cause of the death of these two experimental subjects.
respect to typhus experiments. We have not yet concluded our proof on the typhus experiments at Buchenwald. However, the witness whom we would now like to call to the stand is desirous of returning to Strasbourg at the earliest opportunity, and for that reason we wold like at this time to call Gerog Hirtz to the stand.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will summon the witness Georg Hirtz to the stand.
MR. HARDY: This witness is a French citizen, Your Honor, but he will testify in German.
GEORG HIRTZ, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows;
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will raise his right hand. Will the oath be administered to the witness in French or German?
MR. HARDY: The Tribunal wants to know if the witness can take the oath in French.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I can repeat the oath in French.
THE PRESIDENT: I didn't hear the translation.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I can repeat the oath in French.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand that the witness is a Frenchman. Will the witness answer?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I am a French citizen.
THE PRESIDENT: I will administer the oath in English and it will be translated into German.
I swear that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: Ask the witness if he does so swear.
THE WITNESS: I swear.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Witness, your name is Georg Hirtz, is it not?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. You spell your last name H-i-r-t-z, is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. You were born on July 27, 1907, were you not?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Witness, where were you born?
A. I was born in Saarbrockenheim in lower Alsace.
Q. What is your present address, witness?
A. My present address is at Erstein in lower Alsace.
Q. You are a French citizen, witness?
A. Yes. I am.
Q. Witness, will you kindly tell the Tribunal what is your educational background?
A. I went to the elementary school up to the age of nine years. From nine to seventeen years I visited the high school and junior college, and then I started in pharmacy. Afterwards I worked in a bacteriological laboratory as an assistant, and I completed my studies by graduating as a doctor of natural science.
Q. Witness, you received a degree of pharmacology at the University of Strasbourg in 1929; is that correct?
A. In 1929. I was issued my state diploma as a pharmacist, and afterwards I was given another diploma in 1933.
Q. That is, in 1923 you received the degree in pharmacy, witness?
A. 1929.
Q. Witness, what did you do after the completion of your education until the time that you were placed under arrest by the Gestapo?
A. I worked in my own pharmacy, which also included another laboratory and which also contained another testing laboratory.
Q. Prior to your arrest by the Gestapo, were you ever arrested for and convicted of any crimes, witness?
A. No, never.
Q. When were you arrested by the Gestapo?
A. On the 11th of May, 1943.
Q. Will you tell the Tribunal the circumstances of your arrest?
A. The charge against me stated because of decomposing the German military strength and of the attempt to escape.
Q. After you were placed under arrest by the Gestapo, where were you imprisoned, witness?
A. First of all I spent two or three days at the Augustine prison at Kollmar.
Q. And then?
A. And then I was transferred to the concentration camp Schirmeck.
Q. Would you tell the Tribunal where the concentration camp Schirmeck is located, witness?
A. The concentration camp Schirmeck is located in the Vosges valley near the Alpine border between France and Germany.
Q. Is that within close range to the concentration camp Natzweiler?
A. The two concentration camps belong together.
Q. When you arrived at the concentration camp, what was the first duty assigned to you?
A. Well, I was locked in the bunker first of all for a period of eight days.
Q. And then?
A. And then I became a nurse at the hospital.
Q. When did you become a nurse in the hospital in the middle of May 1943?
A. I arrived on the 11th of May, and after 8 days in the bunker -therefore that was on the 20th of May that I became a nurse.
Q. In your experience as a male nurse at the hospital, Doctor, were you familiar with the activities connected with experimentation programs on human beings?
A. Yes, in the course of the week after my arrival, a transport of Poles arrived. It contained approximately 20 to 25 men. The transport arrived on a particular day which did not fall on the same day as the day on which other prisoners used to arrive.
These Poles did not arrive in the usual way and were not processed in the usual way upon their arrival. But they were immediately taken into a barrack and lock there. The barrack had been established for that particular purpose. It was a common barrack which had been divided into two sections by means of boards.
Q After the Poles arrived in the camp and were placed in the barracks what happened to them witness?
A First of all, the Poles had to wash their barracks several times with Lysol solution. I shall refer to this fact later on. Several days later two German Luftwaffe physicians arrived by car, and then they were accompanied by a German woman. Then they called the Chief of the Medical Office -- it was a medical student by the name of Adler -- and I, as well as the previously mentioned Poles, and then we had to stand at attention. The camp leader and his deputy were likewise present at the formation. The camp leader, his deputy, Adler, and I were given the usual Robert Koch Institute produced vaccine, and we were innoculated with this vaccine. The 20 to 25 Poles, on the other hand, were injected in the chest muscles with a yellow-grayish liquid, which the physicians had brought along in little glasses which were sealed with cotton wool. Before receiving this injection, the Poles were not subjected to any medical examination, and all the injections were given with the same needle without any further disinfection from one person to the next. The Poles were then sent back to their barracks and the barracks were guarded; nobody besides myself, who had to brind their daily food, had access to them, and I also had to check on their temperatures.
Q Witness, when this yellow-gray fluid was injected into these Polish victims, was that the virulent virus of typhus, as you understood it, or was that a vaccine injection?
A I cannot tell you that, but there are two facts which show that the vaccine was virulent, namely, because the nurse who had contact with them had been immunized through a tested vaccine and, on the other hand, I have mentioned the fact to you that upon their arrival the Poles had to wash their barracks with a Lysol solution. This was for the purpose of killing fleas and bugs. The other section of the barracks, because as I previously told you, the barracks was divided only by a wooded partition, was specially occupied by some prisoners, and when it was discovered that the washing with Lysol had not killed all the insects, then the other half of the barracks was immediately evacuated.
Q Now, witness, you have told us that the Poles were taken back to this isolated barracks after these injections, completely cut off from the rest of the camp. Now, will you tell us what developed after that time?
A I had to take the temperature of the Poles three times daily. After 36 to 48 hours, the temperature began to increase very much, to 39-40 and still higher. The reaction of the individual Poles was not always the same, which can also be explained because the people there were not homogeneous enough. They were young, partially still strong people amongst them, end there were older ones who, it could be seen, had lived in a concentration camp already for a long time. On the second or third day, I already found two corpses dead in their bunks. The fever kept on for about six to seven or eight days. Towards the end of this period, conditions of excitement and shock and fear and speaking affect, and other symptoms were found, and from that moment on I was unable to follow the experiment any further because I was relieved of my duty as a nurse and was sent to punitive company.
Q Doctor, you cared for these Poles and took their temperatures three times a day. Now, as a result of caring for these Poles and taking their temperatures, did you submit reports on your activities in that connection and, if so, to whom did you report to?
A. The temperature report was recorded on fever charts by me in the evening and they were then handed over to the Camp Commander at his office. During this time to which I am referring, the latter must have had telephone contact with the instigators of these experiments.
Q. Did you understand that these experiments were initiated by Dr. Haagen?
A. Upon the arrival of the two physicians I was told by the prisoner, Adler, that this was Luftwaffe Oberstabsarzt Haagen and his assistant, Luftwaffe Stabsartz Fraefe. This was not the first time that they performed such an experiment at Schirmeck.
Q. Now, did these reports that you turned in to the Camp Commander's office -- were they in turn forwarded to Professor Haagen?
A. Most probably; but I did not know that exactly. I only do know that sometime later, in the first days of the month of June, Haagen and Graefe again came to Schirmeck and took a blood test from the Poles who had remained, as well as myself.
Q. You refer to the fact that after you left this particular barracks as a male nurse, you had heard of other experiments; can you tell the Tribunal about those?
A. In only know what my comrade Adler told me; that this was the second experiment of this kind at Schirmeck.
Q. Were Haagen, Graefe or Croedel clad in the uniforms of officers of the Luftwaffe when you saw them?
A. Both of them were wearing the blue-gray uniform of the Luftwaffe.
Q. Now, witness, did you understand these experiments that were conducted upon these 20 to 25 Poles to be experiments with typhus for research, in connection with the disease, typhus.
A. Yes; there wasn't the slightest doubt in it for me, because after all at that time I had already 15 years of pharmacological activity behind me.
Q. Witness, you have stated that on the third day after the injection, two of the Poles died as a result of the experiments. Now, did you see those corpses yourself, personally?
A. Yes. I have personally tied, those two corpses into paper bags and they were burned at the crematory of Natzweiler.
Q. After these first two deaths, did any other deaths follow?
A. I could not swear to that fact, but I only know that as long as I was present at the experiment -- and I was unable to see the end -- there were only those two fatalities.
Q. You have stated that these experimental subject suffered from agitation for about five or six days after the vaccination, speech disorders, stammering and feelings of anxiety appeared. Now, do you know whether or not as a result of these experiments on the experimental subjects who survived, whether any ill effects resulted to their physical condition?
A. I will have to assume that these were the results of the injection, because Adler as well as myself, who had been immunized with the usual and common typhus vaccine, did not feel such reactions. These speech defects of which I have already spoken probably remained in the form of stammering with two or three Poles.
Q. Now, witness, you were later released from the Schirmeck Concentration Camp. On what day were you released?
A. I was released--i do not remember the exact day any more, but I was released a little more after four months after my arrival. That is approximately around the 15th of August.
Q. Why were you released, witness, at this period of time?
A. The Gestapo was corrupt and my wife had given everything that she owned in jewelry and gold in order to effect my release.
Q. Now, witness, at the time of your release, were you compelled to sign a sworn statement that you would not disclose what you had seen, heard, or gone through during your period of imprisonment at the concentration camp?
A. I had to swear and I had to sign that under threat of life impresonment in protective custody that I would with nobody discuss what I had seen and lived through. I do not need to toll you that such an oath was given under force and that it does not have any meaning for me.
Q. Now, witness, these 20 to 25 Poles that were injected at the Schirmeck Concentration Camp and later suffered these intense fevers, did any of those people volunteer for these experiments?
A. I do not think so. The people came in one transport. They were immediately locked up. Some morning they were called and had to fall into formation. Nobody asked them in my presence if they wanted to volunteer for these experiments or not.
Q. I have no further questions now.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the defense counsels wish to cross-examine this witness? There being no cross-examination, the Prosecution may proceed.
JUDGE SEBRING: Mr. McHaney, the Tribunal is interested in knowing whether or not this witness can testify as to whether or not he knows the names of any of these officers who conducted these experiments and whether or not he knows whether they had any connection with any of the defendants in the dock.
EXAMINATION BY MR. HcHANEY:
Q. Witness, will you tell the Tribunal who conducted these typhus experiments at the Schirmeck Concentration Camp.
A. As I have already told you, there were Luftwaffen Oberstabsarzt Haagen, the Luftwaffen Oberarzt Graefe; both of then were accompanied by an assistant whose name, I think, was Fraeulein Croedel.
Q. That name is spelled C-R-O-E-D-E-L?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. And you understood that Miss Croedel was secretary to Dr. Haagen?
A. I rather had the impression that it was his assistant because it was she who prepared the hypodermic one moment before the injections were given and performed the usual tasks which are usually performed by an assistant.
Q. If the Tribunal please, the substantially is the only fact which we wish to establish with this witness. The connection of one or the other of the defendants with Haagen will appear at a later date. The Prosecution has no further questions to put to him.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed. The witness may be excused.
MR. McHANEY: If the Tribunal please, I would like, at this point, to introduce Document NO-201, which will be Prosecution Exihibit 290. The Tribunal will recall that the witness Kogen testified with respect to certain poison experiments carried out at the Concentration Camp Buchenwald, and you will remember that he first told us of the poison experiments carried out in the presence of Dr. Morgen, for one, in December 1943; and that those experiments were conducted to see whether or not the defendant Hoven had administered poison to the witness against Koch, the concentration camp commander in Buchenwald, who was being prosecuted before an SS Court; and that four Russian prisoners of war, I believe it was, were selected and poison was administrated to them, and then were then taken to the Crematorium and executed, after which autopsies were performed upon their bodies. We also find a note in the Ding Diary, which is Document NO-265 and Prosecution Exhibit 287, on Page 48 of the English Document Book.
That note is an entry of the 30th and 31st of December 1943 and it reads: "Special experiment on four persons in the case Koch/Hoven. By order of SS Gruppenfuehrer Major General Nebe, the experiment was carried out in the presence of Dr. Morgen and Dr. Wehner." That is one of the poison experiments charged in Paragraph 6-K of the Indictment, and of course also in Paragraph 11 of the Indictment. There are three instances of experiments with poison charged in that paragraph and I think it might be well if I just read that paragraph from the Indictment. It read as follows:
" (K) Experiments with Poison. In or about December 1943 and in or about October 1944, experiments were conducted at the Buchewald Concentration Camp to investigate the effect of various poisons upon human beings. The poisons were secretly administered to experimental subjects in their food. The victims died as a result of the poison or were killed immediately in order to permit autopsies. In or about September 1944, experimental subjects were show with poison bullets and suffered torture and death. The defendants Genzken, Gebhardt, Mrugowsky, and Poppendick are charge d with special responsibility for and participation in these crimes."
Now the first experiment in December '43 at Buchenwald is supported first by the entry in the Ding Diary for the 30th and 31st of December 1943, and also of course by the testimony which the witness Kogon has given before this Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: That was the number assigned to this exhibit?
MR. McHANEY: This exhibit is Prosecution Exhibit 290.
Now the second poison experiment about which Kogon testified was the one charged in the Indictment as occurring in October 1944: and the Tribunal will remember that Kogon stated that four persons were administered some secret poisonous powder by Ding in the Crematorium, as I recall. His attention was then directed to the entry in the Ding Diary of 26 October 1944. That is on Page 51 of the Document Book which reads as follows: "Special experiment an six persons according to instruction of SS Oberfuehrer Lecturer Dr. Mrugowsky and RKPA Report on this orally."
The Tribunal will also recall that the witness Kogon testified that Ding had told him, before this poison experiment in October, that he had also seen Russian prisoners shot with poison bullets at Sachsenhausen near Oranienburg, and that Ding related those occurrences to him and that he testified the defendant Mrugowsky was there, and there was apparently some incident about one of the Russian prisoners of war trying to attach Mrugowsky on that occasion.