"7. Curator.
"The curator is in charge of the scientific work of the society within the framework of the directives given him by the president.
"8. Reich administrator.
"The Reich business manager will deal with the society's business he is responsible for business organization and administration, for drawing up the budget and keeping accounts."
Witness, was there a financial advantage which caused you to change your profession as publishing business man?
A No. In 1935 I already had an income of about 600 marks in that profession, whereas Secretary General of Ahnenerbe only paid 400 marks a month.
Q Were the financial expectations in the Ahnenerbe greater than expectations you could hope for in the publishing business?
A No. Only in the year 1943 I had an income which was somewhat above 700 marks per month. I am sure that in the publishing business I would have had such income much, much earlier and I am sure I would have earned more in 1943 as a publisher.
Q Were there any other advantages connected with your position at the Ahnenerbe or were you lead to expect such advantages?
A No.- on the contrary. I got married at the end of 1934. My career in the publishing business was very favorable. As a General Secretary of the Ahnenerbe I had to change my flat and reside at Berlin. But it was only in 1936 when I succeeded in finding an apartment and until that time had to be separated from my wife and only had disfavor in that connection.
Q Witness, in other words you are saying that it was an idea which called you to assume this position as Reich Business Manager of the Ahnenerbe and you will probably agree with me that it is not easy to believe that anyone would be prepared to take into account such disadvantages and only follows a new course on account of an idea, as you said you did?
A I conscientiously examined all of these disadvantages because the aims of Professor Hielscher and his groups were more important to me than any disadvantages.
Q The position of Reich Business manager of Ahnenerbe was held by you until the end of the War?
A Yes.
Q Did you consider this position having the possibility of resuming your position with Hielscher?
AAhnenerbe was a registered society. Since Himmler was its president it was not easy to establish contact with every agency other than those that came within jurisdiction of the SS. It was much easier to do any work from the Ahnenerbe which was more or less in neutral grounds than it would have been from any SS agency.
Q In the subsequent period you often got in touch with Himmler and I would be interested to hear something from you about that.
A When Himmler in 1937 became president of Ahnenerbe I occasionally established contact with him. Now and again I was ordered to report to him or sometimes ordered to have dinner with him.
Q What was it that you had to report to Himmler?
AAbout organizational and financial questions as they related to my duties as Reich business manager.
Q Did you also report to the curator regarding these questions?
A I reported to both regularly about all these questions because both were my superiors.
Q In order to clarify further happenings I consider it necessary that you briefly tell the Tribunal about this situation so they may understand what train of thoughts you were subject to. Professor Wuest was director of the Munich University, wasn't he? Considering your separation, you must consider that you yourself were in Berlin, didn't any difficulties arise?
A This separation naturally made the work more difficulty, especially sine I had to go very often to Wuest at Munich while the other hadn Wuest repeatedly visited me in Berlin. Cowing to the special separation it became necessary that I repeatedly had to represent Wuest at conferences and had to sign letters relating to matters which really did not belong within my spere of tasks.
Q The prosecution in connection with the counts which are here under the indictment has submitted a number of letters which bear signature. I am at first interested to know whether the entire correspondence arriving at the Ahnenerbe went through your hands.
A That was not the case. Because of the independence of the departmental heads and the decentralized organization of the departments it came about that a large amount of the mail did not go through me but arrived at the departmental heads, respectively. They, in turn, when important matters came up submitted these matters to the curator Prof. Wuest.
Q Could you yourself order any research assignment to be carried out in the framework of the Ahnenerbe?
A No, I could not do that, Only the president, Himmler, or the curator, Wuest, could do that.
Q At a later time we shall come back to the fact that in one or other cases you did that, nevertheless, but at any rate we shall talk about that later. The Ahnenerbe only dealt scientific tasks?
A In accordance with its organization its tasks only dealt with cultural and scientific work and actually carried such work through.
Q When for the first time, was the Ahnenerbe given tasks which organically had nothing to do with that society?
A That happened on the 1st of January 1942, by order of Himmler when he ordered that an enthomological institute be rected.
Q To whom did Himmler give that order?
A To the Ahnenerbe.
Q Was the Ahnenerbe at that time an office within the Reichsfuehrer SS organization? 5670
A Yes.
Q Well, the department chief was Prof. Wuest, wasn't he?
A Yes, that is true.
Q Did the Ahnenerbe in subsequent periods receive tasks which organically didn't belong to it?
AAt the beginning of March 1942 Dr. Rascher approached the Ahnenerbe and informed them that Himmler had ordered that the Ahnenerbe would take over his work at dachau.
Q Had you known this Dr. Rascher from before?
A Yes, I had known him since the year 1939.
Q In what connection did you make Dr. Rascher's acquaintance?
A Wuest at that time was informed by Himmler that a certain Dr. Rascher was to receive a diagnosis of cancer illnesses. This assignment was not to carried out because of Rascher being drafted into the Luftwaffe In this manner an opposition became superfluous as regards as science which had really nothing to do with the Ahnenerbe.
Q Why did you at that time believe that you would have to oppose any such assignment given to Dr. Rascher?
AAt the time when neither Prof. Wuest as curator nor I as business manager had knowledge of any departmental head by the name of Rascher, an article appeared in the well-known periodical called "The Week" in which quite exciting results in cancer research were mentioned, and the same of Dr. Rascher was pointed out as the departmental head in the Ahnenerbe. I immediately notified curator Wuest, as well as Himmler, of that fact but nothing came of this entire affair because Rascher was drafted into the Luftwaffe. Since Wuest and I did not approve of this inconsiderate method of Dr. Rascher to put Himmler into the foreground our rejecting attitude revived itself when Rascher once more appeared in 1942 at the Ahnenerbe.
Q I now come to your participation in the high altitude experiments of Dr. Rascher, and I shall have the Document Book Number 2 of the Prosecution shown to you.
(Witness receives the purported Book.)
Will you please turn to page 61, and page 59, in the English Book translation. This is the Document No. 15181-A, Exhibit 48 of the Prosecution. As it can be seen from this document you made an inquiry on the 9th of March to the 9th of March 1942 to the personal staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS. The inquiry referred to Dr. Rascher, since this inquiry itself is not available as a document I should like to ask you to tell us from your own memory what its subject was.
AAs far as I remember Rascher at that time turned to Wuest, who was in Munich, and then to me, and told us that certain research work which he was carrying cut by order of the Luftwaffe at Dachau were to supported by the administration of the Ahnenerbe. Since he, however said that he wasn't allowed to give us any more details I turned to the personal staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS in order to gain more information about that matter.
Q What support was to be given to Dr. Rascher on the part of the administration of the Ahnenerbe?
A He was to be supported regarding the supply of equipment, apparatus, and the establishment of connections with scientific institutions with whom collaboration seemed to be necessary with reference to rascher's work. This support was not used at the beginning because the Luftwaffe made everything that was needed available.
Q Did you at that period of time know - that is, when receiving the letter of the 21st of March 1942 - that this concerned with experiments on human beings?
A This only became evident to me when on the basis of this letter dated the 21st of March 1942 O talked to Dr. Rascher at Dachau.
Q When was that?
A That was at the end of March 1942, or on the 1st of April. At any rate, it was after this letter - either the end of March of the beginning of April.
Q Had you been in any concentration camp before that date?
A No.
Q Could you enter the concentration camp at Dachau in the subsequent period of time without any ADO?
A No. For that purpose an express approval was necessary, an approval and a directive by Himmler, which was done during that first visit. After that I had to report to the commandant of that camp and had to sign a statement which obliged me to keep secrecy, and furthermore, I was not to talk to the inmates regarding personal matters. It was always necessary to report to the commandant personally if at any time in the future a further visit was to take place.
Q It was at the end of March 1942 when for the first time you came in contact with Dr. Rascher in the Concentration Camp at Dachau?
A That's right.
Q Were at that time the high-altitude experiments of Dr. Rascher started?
A Yes, these experiments were already being carried out for a little more than one month. That is, ever since the 22nd of February 1942 but that is something I only found out here through the testimony of Neff.
Q Up to that period of time you knew nothing of these experiments?
A No.
Q Is it correct that on invitation of Rascher you watched one such experiment?
A Yes, that is correct. When on that day I arrived at Dachau, of course, at the end of March Dr. Rascher introduced Dr. Romberg to me and we then carried out an experiment at the pressure chamber. I watched two of these experiments.
Q Did participation of those experiments fall within your tasks as they were defined by the order of Himmler?
A No, it didn't belong to my task but Rascher requested me to watch these experiments.
Q What did you find out about the experimental subject on this occasion, and what did you know about the course of these experiments and I am speaking of the experiments which you yourself watched?
AA number of experimental subjects were there. The experiments were carried out by Dr. Romberg and Dr. Rascher. I spoke to those experimental subjects both of whom received no harm and emerged completely fit after the experiments. One person who had lost his consciousness during the experiment afterwards refused to believe that he had become unconscious. This phenomena interested me and I entered into a conversation with that man since I couldn't imagine that one wouldn't know about the fact of having become unconscious.
In that connection the man pointed to a number of figures which he wrote during this experiment which were not interrupted in his opinion.
Q Was Dr. Romberg present during these experiments?
A Yes, Dr. Romberg was present.
Q Did you discuss with these experimental subjects whether they were volunteers?
A I spoke to both of them since I was interested in that matter. Rascher had told me that these experimental subjects were volunteers, and Himmler confirmed that. For that reason I asked whether human people had volunteered for these experiments. The answer was made that more people had volunteered for the experiment than could be used at the moment. I inquired what the reason was that they volunteered for such experiments and the reply was made that in this camp every opportunity is seized to improve one's condition. This was a new train of thought for me because up until that time I had never been in a concentration camp.
Q Did you report to Himmler about these two experiments which you attended at the end of March, Rascher hinted this in his letter of 5 April 1942 addressed to the Reichsfuehrer SS? In this connection I refer to page 62. This is the letter by Rascher to the Reichsfuehrer SS, dated 5 April 1942 which is Document of the Prosecution 1971-A, Exhibit 49, which is to be found on page 60 of the English translation. In this letter it says SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Diehl took time for a few days watching experiments and probably may have given you a brief report. Did you report to Himmler about what you had seen in Dachau and when was that?
A In view of the way Rascher expressed himself it is important to state that he is merely expressing an assumption. Easter 1942, that is on the 5th of April, shortly after I had seen this experiment I discussed with Himmler. Certainly I wasn't in a position to give him a report about it for the technical pre-requisites or anything that would have enabled me to give him a correct description I lacked.
Q Rascher in this letter mentioned that you had been very interested in this work. How do you explain this passage in Rascher's letter?
A This letter written by Rascher to Himmler is not known to me, which also applies to the entire correspondence of Rascher with Himmler or vice versa. For that reason I can only assume that Rascher chose this expression in the letter to Himmler in order to score a point with Grawitz with whose visit he was probably not satisfied. If he speaks about my interest, he probably mentions it because according to Himmler's order I had to carry out the support which I had been ordered.
Q At that time in Dachau you recognized that human experimental subjects were used during these high-altitude experiments. Apart from the order which you, did you have -- didn't any certain consequence arise for you personally from that fact, even if I take into consideration that these two experiments which you observed had no fatal outcome?
A Yes. I personally rejected these experiments on human beings. I rejected them without being in a position to judge whether they were materially and essentially necessary.
Q Did you communicate this thought of yours to any higher agencies?
A Yes, when I reported to Himmler at Easter 1942, ordered to attend to field headquarters, that is, to report regarding other matters I stated to him that I had been to Dachau and that I there witnessed a high-altitude experiment, and that I was personally rejecting such experiments.
Q And how did Himmler re-act to this statement?
A Himmler spoke to me and gave me some long explanation. He stated that experiments on human beings were always carried out where nothing else would do.
He said that we were concerned with saving our German fliers when conducting these experiments, and he asked me whether I when rejecting to such experiments was not indicating that not all was being done to save German soldiers.
Q Was the furnishing of experimental subjects your task?
A No, all of these experiments had to be personally approved by Himmler. Himmler personally issued further directives to the Reich Security Main Office (RSHA). That is, to the competent agencies there. Himmler during that conference told me that only volunteers were used for these experiments, and in case these experiments may have a fatal result only those criminals condemned to death could be used and in no circumstance were any political protective prisoners to be used.
Q On this occasion, during that Easter conference of April 1942, didn't you one more ask Himmler to give such research assignments to another institute, as this one given to Dr. Rascher?
A Yes, I told Himmler that a layman I could make no reply to his statement but that in spite of that I asked him to consider whether it would not be more correct -- that such medical experiments were transferred to the sphere of the Reichsarzt SS, since he was at least more competent in regards these experiments than the Ahnenerbe was.
Q Were you successful when voicing these misgivings?
A Unfortunately, no. Himmler stated that no person in the world was asking me to carry out these experiments. I should have to leave to him that his directives were correct. He neither wanted Grawitz nor anyone else included in these research activities, but wanted to maintain them directly at his own control. He said expressly that it was because he wanted to exercise a personal influence since he personally carried the responsibility.
THE PRESIDENT: We will now adjourn until nine thirty tomorrow morning. 5677 Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal I in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 10 April 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 1.
Military Tribunal 1 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Tribunal.
There will be order in the court room.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain that the defendants are all present in court?
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all the defendants are present in the court with the exception of the Defendant Oberheuser, absent due to illness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court save the Defendant Oberheuser absent on account of illness, pursuant to doctor's certificate which will be filed. Defendant Oberheuser may be excused from attendance, it appearing that her interests will not be prejudiced.
MR. HARDY: May it please, your Honor, at the present time we have in Nuernberg a representative of the War Crimes Group who has requested permission of the Tribunal to interrogate the Defendant Hoven this morning. The defense counsel of the Defendant Hoven has agreed and prosecution is agreeable to such interrogation if the Tribunal should see fit to dismiss Hoven this morning for this interrogation.
THE PRESIDENT: On the statement of counsel for the prosecution and agreement of counsel for the defense, Defendant Hoven may be excused from attendance before the Tribunal this morning, subject to the interrogation which has been mentioned, it appearing that his absence from the Tribunal this morning will not prejudice his interests.
Counsel may proceed.
WOLFRAM SIEVERS - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. WEISGRUBER (Counsel for the Defendant Sievers):
Q Witness, I remind you that you are still under oath; you were sworn in yesterday.
A Yes.
Q Witness, yesterday at the end of the session we had reached the question whether you were successful your misgivings to Himmler which went to the effect that the attachment of the department Rascher and Hirt to the Ahnenerbe was alien to its tasks and that you for certain reasons endeavored to keep these departments out of the Ahnenerbe society. Did Himmler on this occasion state that the execution of further research assignments were to be carried out with the support of the Ahnenerbe?
A Yes. Himmler said that in addition he wanted the research work of Professor Hirt linked to the Ahnenerbe since he considered that to be of the utmost importance. We then discussed the Lost experiments of which Hirt had spoken to me, and in which connection he had formerly carried out experiments at the military medical academy on NCO's. Himmler then spontaneously declared that such experiments would have to stop. He said that the were being carried out against the will of Hitler, non commissioned officers were more important as soldiers. I was told to tell Hirt that he would have to report to Himmler about his work in detail and I was to transmit Himmler's wish to him that Hirt in addition to his animal experiments, would make a few practical experiments on human beings. Himmler, who originally wanted Hirt to report to him personally but Hirt was ill-asked me to relieve Hirt of all his work, which would keep him away from his real research activity. In this manner I came into contact with Hirt regarding his work.
Q How, did you discuss this situation with any third parties into which you got on the basis of Himmler's order?
A Subsequent to this objection I raised with Himmler and which had no success, I spoke to my departmental superior Wuest He maintained the point of view, however, that Himmler's orders were to be carried out.
I than discussed this question with my secretary, and I told her that I disliked this entire development. I discussed this question also with some of my friends, for instance, Dr. Hielscher.
DR. WEISGRUBER: Mr. President, in this connection I intend to submit an affidavit of Frau Dr. Schmidt. This affidavit is contained in document Volume 11. I heard this morning that this will be compiled during the course of the morning and it is expected it will be delivered, to the Tribunal in the afternoon.
Q. Subsequently many reports, requests and inquires of Dr. Rascher arrived at your office, and there is reason for the assumption that you gained a rather extensive picture about the manner of execution of Dr. Rascher's experiments; isn't that correct?
A. Rascher always sent his reports directly to Himmler. They never went through me.
Q. Didn't any copies of these reports arrive at your office?
A. No. the entire scientific affair, the execution, was dealt with in direct contact with Himmler and Rascher. Rascher made a secret report entitled "In order to save from high altitude."
Q. It appears that this secret report was sent to Ahnenerbe, at least a copy of it; for that reason there is reason for the assumption you at least gained knowledge of this report?
A. I wouldn't want to exclude the possibility that this report was also sent to the Ahnenerbe. It may have been on the distribution list. However, I didn't read these scientific reports. This did not fall within my tasks. I knew nothing about its technical aspect. I was not interested in it, because it only dealt with medical questions. In most cases I read the usual summary which could be found at the end of any such report; and these reports, as far as they didn't concern Rascher, were either transmitted to Himmler, or Wuest, or to the competent departmental head.
Q. I shall now have the Document Book 2 of the Prosecution shown to you; I should like to discuss a passage which is contained in the Document, NO-226, Exhibit 75, on page 123 of the German text, and page 127 of the English text.
This is a letter by you to the Personal Staff of the Reichs Fuehrer SS, dated the 21st October 1942. In passage 2 you write there that the high altitude experiments would have to be continued and that therefore the low pressure chamber was again required. How did this letter originate?
A. Himmler had inspected a number of agencies of the Ahnenerbe in Munich. Afterwards a meeting took place, at which Rascher was present. Himmler asked Rascher how tho situation was regarding low pressure chambers. Rascher said that the low pressure chamber hadn't come back, and as a result Himmler ordered that I should send him a draft of a letter addressed to Brandt, which he wanted to send to Milch. According to Rascher's instructions I sent this draft to Brandt, including this letter which you have just submitted to me.
Q. Were the high altitude experiments then continued?
A. The high altitude experiments were not continued because the low pressure chamber didn't return to Dachau.
Q. Could you assist in seeing to it that this low pressure chamber didn't come back to Dachau?
A. Yes, that was possible by establishing a contact with the Reich Research Council. By referring to the competent expert who made the views of the Air Force Offices and the DVL, which were known to me, his own, it could be prevented, that, in spite of the express order by Himmler, this low pressure chamber was returned to Dachau once more.
Q. I now summarize your activity in connection with the high altitude experiments of Dr. Rascher very briefly. You received the order from Himmler to assist Dr. Rascher in his experiments at Dachau by getting for him all the necessary laboratory equipment.
I state in that connection that at the time this order was issued by Himmler, Dr. Rascher had already been carrying out his experiments for a period of approximately four weeks. In addition I state that the low pressure chamber was not furnished by you. Upon Rascher's request you participated in two high altitude experiments one day, during which Dr. Romberg was also present. No harmful results could be ascertained after these experiments on the experimental subjects. Both experimental subjects confirmed to you that they had volunteered for these experiments. Thereupon you made a short report to Himmler about these experiments, and upon this occasion asked Himmler not to affiliate this work of Rascher to the Ahnenerbe, something which Himmler strictly rejected. During the course of these experiments you took no notice of any reports of Rascher, and tho secret report which I previously discussed only arrived at the Ahnenerbe at a time when these experiments had already been concluded. You yourself state that you did not read that secret report. You admit, however, the possibility of having road the final sentence. You wrote two other letters, tho subject of which was the new furnishing of a low pressure chamber, and in large outline this is all you had to do with Rascher's high altitude experiments; is that correct?
A. Yes, that is true. In this connection I did my best to see to it that experimental subjects be released.
Q. We shall later revert to this question. During tho subsequent period you came in contact with the cold experiments of Dr. Rascher?
A. I once went to Dachau in order to participate in administrative conferences, at the time when Dr. Rascher, Professor Holzloehner and Dr. Finke were concluding a cold experiment.
That is to say, the experimental subject was just placed into a room, but I didn't see anything else of this experiment.
Q. On the occasion of this experiment, or on the occasion of a discussion which perhaps followed, did you hear anything more in detail about Rascher regarding these experiments?
A. These three gentlemen were very busy in reading the apparatus which was used in connection with that experiment. I was told that it was necessary to receive the warmth covers as quickly as possible, and Professor Holzloehner stated that they bad almost concluded their experiments, and that further experiments hardly seemed necessary. No scientific questions were discussed at that time.
Q. Did you see any report or did you receive reports from Rascher about these cold experiments?
A. No, these reports also went directly to Himmler from Rascher, as becomes evident from the documents which have been submitted here.
Q. I shall now have document Volume No. 3 of the Prosecution handed to you. In Document NO-1611, Exhibit 85, of the Prosecution, page 16 of the German text and page 17 of the English text, you find a letter sent by the Reichs Fuehrer SS to Dr. Rascher of 22 September 1942; and in the second paragraph it says "Sent to SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Sievers as information copy." Paragraph 1 mentions the intermediate report of the cold experiments by Dr. Rascher at the concentration camp Dachau. One could conclude therefrom that you had received this intermediate report?
A. this intermediate report went directly from Rascher to Himmler, otherwise Himmler wouldn't have answered to Rascher directly. I don't think, however, that it is cut of the question that Rascher had told Hitler by way of this intermediate report, or in any other report that I when hearing of these cold experiments considered them to be perverse. I assume that by sending mo that report Himmler's opinion on that subject was to be transmitted to me, and for that reason I received the copy of that letter for my information.
Q. Now, would you be good enough to turn over one page, and you will there find Dr. Rascher's letter dated 3 October 1942. This letter is obviously directed to Dr. Rudolf Brandt. It becomes evident from that letter, and I am referring to the last lines on page 17 of the document book, that Rascher had turned to you in a number of matters, is that correct?
A. Yes, I shall revert to the low pressure chamber briefly. He says here that he turned to me in order to take steps regarding the low pressure chamber. I didn't do anything about that, at least not on the basis of this request by Rascher, only later when Himmler arrived at Munich and when he himself gave me the order to send him this draft letter, which was previously discussed. Ho further says that he turned to me regarding a teletype which asked for the furnishing of women for tho purpose of those experiments. Since Himmler had already issued orders regarding the furnishing of experimental subjects, there was nothing left for me to do.
Q. Didn't you participate in a second cold experiment?
A. Yes, I together with Dr. Hirt, whom I had to accompany by order of Himmler, as he had been included in Rascher's experiments by the approval of Himmler.
Himmler probably had realized in tho meantime that for the purpose of the clarification of these scientifically very extensive and difficult questions Rascher alone would not be sufficient. Hirt, because cf his state of health, could not come to Munich for one day, and for that reason asked that everything be prepared beforehand, that he could gain insight into all the work results which had been obtained so far. I told Rascher to prepare everything according to Hirt's desire. A professional criminal was presented for the purpose of this experiment.
Q. Was that a professional criminal who had already been condemned to death, and how did you know whether it was such a criminal?
A. Hirt, before tic experiment started, wanted to look at the files, because there was a possibility that this experiment would end fatally. The sentence was furnished by the Criminal Police Department of the Camp Administration. We saw that this was a sentence which had been passed by a regular court, and it became evident therefrom that this man had more than 10 years penitentiary behind him, and had been sentenced recently to death because of murder and theft. Hirt furthermore asked the man whether he knew that this experiment might end fatally, whereupon the man answered that he was well aware of that. He said that he would have to die anyway for he was an old criminal, he was a criminal because he couldn't be anything else, and that he therefore deserved death.
Q. Did you convince yourself of that by asking the experimental subject whether he was actually a volunteer?
A. After Hirt's questioning I personally asked the man whether he agreed to that experiment. He thereupon said that he was in full agreement, providing it didn't hurt him. This assurance could be given to him, because tho experiment was carried out under complete anesthesia. I didn't participate in tho entire experiment, but I saw that this man was given anesthetics.
Q. You yourself received insight into the files from the criminal police?
A. Yes, I read through them, together with Hirt.
Q. Well, I guess there can be no doubt that this was a professional criminal sentenced to death by a regular court?
A. This was a very regular sentence. All previous sentences were listed in tho files, and I remember in addition to tho death sentence, he already had 10 years penitentiary.
DR. WEISGERBER: Mr. President, in that connection I intended to read a document, which unfortunately is also contained in Document Volume No. 2, and I should like to reserve the right to revert to that matter as soon as this volume is available. This is a matter relating to concentration camp inmates who witnessed this episode between Hirt and Rascher regarding the death sentence and voluntary aspect of that subject.
JUDGE SEBRING: Counsel may present the document when available.
Q. Witness, it can be seen from further documents contained in Volume 3, which I won't go into detail about, that you were interest in Rascher being sent from tho Luftwaffe to the Waffen SS; from that it could be assumed that you were on good footing with Rascher, and that you had personal interest in seeing that Rascher be transferred to the Waffen SS from the Luftwaffe, is that correct?