Perhaps he can put into evidence now. I won't object to either one of then I might add.
DR. STEINBAUER (Counsel for the defendant Beiglboeck): From the list which the Prosecution offered today, about documents for identification, I have seen there arc 2 Vorlicek affidavits. The defense has no objection to these 2 documents because they arc properly certified. Then I had the assignment from the Court regarding Exhibit 5, statement of the witness at the University Clinic, Professor Heinmeyer, that this document should be certified. I wrote to Professor Heinmeyer and now I have the certified copy, so that this document is in order now.
MR. HARDY: Was this one offered before as a Beiglboeck exhibit?
DR. STEINBAUER: No, I gave it the old number - Exhibit No. 5.
MR. HARDY: The Prosecution has no objection now that it is in order, your Honor. Apparently the Tribunal admitted that provisionally.
THE PRESIDENT: I assume that it was admitted provisionally. Reference will be made to this matter in the record. What is that document number - Beiglboeck 5?
MR. HARDY: It is Beiglboeck Document 24, which is exhibit No. 5.
THE PRESIDENT: May the record show that Beiglboeck Document 24, Beiglboeck Exhibit 5, was formally admitted in evidence, being correct in form.
DR. STEINBAUER: And then the Tribunal asked me about a document which I offered in English - an excerpt from a book by Gritchler to get German translations for the Tribunal and the Prosecution. I have had it translated and I give yon copies now.
MR. HARDY: The document which you arc getting a German copy of, your Honor, which is Beiglboeck Exhibit 37, rather Document No. 37, was Beiglboeck Exhibit No. 30, I believe.
DR. STEINBAUER: Yes, it was Exhibit 30. It was just a German translation that was missing. Then, as Exhibit 36, I should like to offer affidavit of Dr. falter Rode, from my Document Book 2. The number is 39. It was in the supplement on page 148 to 154. I do not intend to road it, in order to save time. It is properly certified.
MR. HARDY: Does the Tribunal have copies of the English of Document book 2, that is document 39, which just was offered as Exhibit 36 Beiglboeck?
THE PRESIDENT: Are those Defendant Beiglboeck document books? No, we haven't those here.
MR. HARDY: Here is one copy, your Honor, and the others can be picked up....
DR. STEINBAUER: I have them here.
MR. HARDY: Here are a sufficient number of copies.
DR. STEINBAUER: And here is the German. And then the last document which I intend to submit today will be Exhibit #37, the list of names of the gypsies.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment, doctor, we haven't received these documents yet. How what document ore you offering, Doctor?
DR. STEINBAUER: A new document. I have already given the original to the Secretary General. It is part of Exhibit Ho. 34, a black cover with the names of the gypsies. Since the ease is completed now I should like to offer this list officially. I have asked the General Secretary's office to prepare photostatic copies for the Tribunal and the Prosecution already has copies.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I don't think the introduction of the list as contained in the black cover is necessary as a separate number. I believe that the charts and the 2 books were introduced as Beiglboeck Exhibit #34 and the 2 books that are included in Exhibit #34 have one which has the black cover thereon, where those lists of names are found. I think it would save trouble and would not create too much difficulty if we continued to keep thorn under one number, 34, rather than submit the list on the cover of the black book as an additional number.
THE PRESIDENT: I understood Beiglboeck Document 39 has just been offered as Exhibit 34; am I wrong?
MR. HARDY: No. 36.
DR. STEINBAUER: Yes, the last number was 36, document 39, Exhibit 36, affidavit of Dr. Med. Walter Rohde. And now I wanted to give an exhibit number to the list of names but I agree with the prosecutor that it is not necessary to give it a. separate number.
All I am interested in is that the list of names be made complete. On tho photostat copy of the black cover there are 29 names. On the list, the fever charts, there are 11 other names; that makes 40 altogether. Berglboeck remembers definitely that the last experimental number was a person named Hoff and #43 was somebody named Keifer. The witness, Laufinger, said that Kiefer was in the experiment. The only ones that are missing, then arc perhaps 20 and 42. On the occasion of the cross-examination of the witness, Mettback, by Mr. Hardy, he mentioned a name which is supposed to be No. 20. Since I do not have a list of my own I cannot check it, but that may be right. Then, of the whole number of names, only one is missing - that would be Ho. 42. I haven't found him on any list and it is impossible for no to tell the Tribunal what this last name is, that otherwise we have all the 43 names.
THE PRESIDENT: What was the exhibit number of that book itself?
MR. HARDY: The exhibit number of the charts and the 2 books that wont over in tho cross-examination of the defendant Beiglboeck, is Beiglboeck Exhibit No. 34.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any copies of these lists for the Tribunal?
DR. STEINBAUER: Yes, I can give you copies, but I asked tho Secretary General's office to make photostatic copies and this gentleman here was kind enough to say he -would take care of it and gave me a copy and the prosecutor a copy and I would like to ask him to give the Court 4 copies.
THE PRESIDENT: Then copies will be furnished to the Tribunal?
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, the photostatic copies of the page is not actually necessary. Dr. Steinbauer has made a certified copy of the names as written on the photostatic copy which I think would be sufficient, rather than having the book re-photostated. As a matter of fact....
THE PRESIDENT: My reference was merely to tho photostatic copy of that pa c of the names.
MR. HARDY: That is what I mean. I mean it has been photostated once and I have a copy and the Tribunal nay have my copy if they wish and I will take one of these in lieu of it.
I think this is sufficient.
THE PRESIDENT: Probably that typewritten list of names will answer the purpose of the Tribunal.
DR. STEINBAUER: Thin I have.....
THE PRESIDENT: Just one moment. Nov this list of names is supplementary to a hat Beiglboeck exhibit?
MR. HARDY: This list of names is the sane list of names as contained in the black cover of the book that is in Exhibit 34.
THE PRESIDENT: Then this photostat and this list is a supplement to Beiglboeck Exhibit 34?
DR. STEINBAUER: Yes.
MR. HARDY: Yes, you can call it that, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, doctor.
DR. STEINBAUER: I ask the Tribunal to approve an expert Dr. Glatzl from Flensburg, I have a statement from him in my Document Book No. 3, but it is inadequate since I could not give him any data on wright. I wrote to him and asked to come here or else to give me a written opinion. He promised to do so, but so far I have not received the opinion. Therefore, I asked the Tribunal to be able to offer this opinion if it arrives in a few days. Flensburg has very bad postal connections; it is in the British zone, and it wasn't possible to do this earlier. I believe the prosecutor will have no objection to this delay.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will hear from Counsel when the affidavit or statement or opinion or whatever he calls it is received. If it is received before Wednesday evening, it will certainly be admitted.
DR. STEINBAUER: And today I asked Mr. Hardy whether I can complete my closing brief and go away, leave Nurnberg, whether the water case is finished. He said, Yes". I was very happy to hear this, but after the recess he told me that the prosecution intended to call the witness Karl Hoellenrainer again. Therefore, I should like to ask the prosecutor whether he gave me this information officially or whether that was not official?
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, the prosecution is entertaining the thought of perhaps recalling Hoellenrainer to get his testimony. However, as I say, we were merely entertaining the thought and Mr. McHaney and I were going to have a conference on it late this afternoon and I merely stated that to defense counsel so that I could alert him in case he decided to leave for Vienna before the end of the week and if we did agree in a conference the Tribunal would recall the witness Hoellenrainer. That is purely tentative.
THE PRESIDENT: You will notify the Tribunal at the opening of tomorrow's morning session whether you expect to call the witness Hollenrainer?
MR. HARDY: Yes sir.
DR. STEINBAUER: Then I have nothing more to say at this time.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will he in recess until ninethirty o'clock tomorrow morning.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess until nine-thirty o'clock tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 1 July 1947, at 0930 hours.)
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 1 July 1947, 6930-1700, Justice Beals, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I. Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain if the defendants are all present in court?
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all the defendants are present in the court with the exception of the defendant Oberhauser, who is absent due to illness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Clerk will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court with the exception of defendant Oberhauser, who is hospitalized on account of illness pursuant to the orders of the prison physician.
Mr. HARDY: In compliance with the request of the Tribunal that the Prosecution state the position in regard to the calling of the witness Karl Hoellenreiner. The Prosecution at this time requests that the witness Karl Hoellenreiner be recalled to the witness stand. It may be convenient to recall him at 12:30 this afternoon rather than this morning, and then the defense can continue with their documentation in as much the witness Hoellenreiner has not been alerted. It should be 1:30, Your Honor, I am sorry.
Dr. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, it would be a good sign that the Prosecution does not think it can dispense with this witness, but nevertheless, I must strenuously object to a renewed examination of this witness for legal reasons.
Karl Hoellenreiner was called by the Prosecution as a rebuttal witness and was examined. No one told or forced the Prosecution to say, "I have no further questions."
By making this statement he indicated that the examination of the witness was completed, thereupon, I also said that I had no questions of the witness. If this witness is to be called to the stand again, after there has been an opportunity to interrogate him, and to tell him what Laubinger testified to just before him, then I believe that the value of this witness is slight, and it would be prejudicial to all the defense counsel, because then, of course, we would make application to re-examine our witnesses on weak points after having told them of faulty material of the trial. For these legal reasons I ask this application be rejected, but if counter to my expectations the Tribunal will grant this request, then I make my application on the basis of the mental condition of the witness Karl Hoellenreiner. When a regrettable incident occurred, and recess was called, a woman whom I had not known before came to me and said that she was Helen Hoellenreiner, the wife.
There were very few defense counsel present -
Mr. HARDY: This is all hear say based on defense counsel's evidence that he is building up. I can not see what that has to do with the admissibility of the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
DR. STEINBAUER: She asked me to help her husband, saying that there was something wrong with his head. He had been in four experiments, and was suffering greatly. But not this circumstances alone, but a much more important one has occasions me to make this application, I have had great difficulty in trying to find experimental subjects that were scattered throughout Germany so far as this type is concerned, and I come across Karl Hoellenreiner. I went to see him, and I tried to find him at his home town. Then I sent a doctor to talk to him. He told this doctor he had been in four experiments, and that he was very much excited and disturbed. This doctor came to me and said we can not use this man as a witness, he is a pathological liar.
One must grant even a young doctor the ability to judge that this person is not quite normal. Therefore, I ask that before his examination that Karl Hoellenreiner be examined by a doctor appointed by the Tribunal, and that the Prosecution be given an opportunity to participate also in the examination by the doctor.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other defense counsel have anything to say on this subject?
DR. STEINBAUER: May I continue, Mr. President, I am almost finished.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I thought counsel had concluded.
DR. STEINBAUER: In case Hoellenreiner is called to the witness stand I further make application immediately to send a messenger to the Nurnberg-Furth District Court in Erlangen and get a complete record of the file of 19 March of Karl Hoellenreiner who was born on 14 March 1914 in Furth. This could be done within two hours. The reason is that Karl Hoellenreiner is not unknown to my colleagues. They told me that to their knowledge Karl Hoellenreiner must have been convicted at least 12 times. He lied to you. He was asked whether he had been convicted and he said, "No." I don't have the German record here but I remember that. My colleagues have told me that Hoellenreiner has been convicted for theft, fraud, assault, etc. Therefore, I went to the penal registry and the officials said that as a private person he could not give me any information. I must, therefore, ask the Court to help me. I went to the Secretary General's Office yesterday and he also told me that witout an order from the Court the Secretary's General's office could do nothing. It is without doubt necessary in judging this witness to determine whether he told the truth on this point or not and whether we are dealing here with a decent person or with a person who has been repeatedly convicted.
Mr. HARDY: Your Honor, Prosecution wishes to point out that I believe my words at the time of the interrogation here in the Tribunal in connection with the witness Hoellenreiner were due to the confusion and due to the conduct of the witness. I had no further questions at that time - that is in answer to the defense. Secondly, defense counsel have called witnesses back to the stand, and third, the testimony of Karl Hoellenreiner is deemed to be essential and necessary in this case. Be whatever his record may be that the prosecution has no knowledge of, he was experimented on in the sea water experiments and has knowledge of them and, in addition to that, he underwent at least one of them.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel for the Prosecution having requested the right to call Karl Hoellenreiner again to the stand, the Court, having heard counsel for Prosecution and counsel for the defendant Beiglboeck in resistance of Prosecution's application, it is the order of the Tribunal that the witness Hoellenreiner may be recalled to the stand.
Counsel for the defendant Beiglboeck may have an order of the Court which will assist him in procuring any record of the witness Hoellreiner at Erlanger. If a request will be presented it will be immediately signed and accomplished so that counsel will be aided in every way by the Tribunal in gaining the information he desires. And, of course, counsel for defense may rebut the testimony of this witness. Under all circumstances the weight to be given to this witness called before the Tribunal is for the Tribunal to determine. Counsel will have the privilege of cross examining the witness. The witness may be recalled to the stand being under custody under order of the Tribunal, he will be under guard at 1:30 o'clock this afternoon.
Dr. GAWLIK: (for the defendant Hoven) Mr. President, in the list of exhibits which are to be admitted which was given to you yesterday there is document exhibit 523, NO-2313. I intend to have a handwriting expert text the correctness of this document and offer an opinion. An expert is here in the building and I ask the decision of the Tribunal that the handwriting expert be allowed to examine the document in the General Secretary's office.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the number of that exhibit, counsel?
Dr. GAWLIK: 523, Mr. President.
Mr. HARDY: Your Honor, I haven't heard the remarks of counsel. I had the switch on the wrong number and didn't get the translation. Repeat it please.
Dr. GAWLIK: Exhibit 523, NO-2313 has a pencil notation on it which was discussed here in court. I want to have a handwriting expert examine it.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel is correct. A handwriting expert produced by counsel for the defendant Hoven may examine the document in the of fice of the Secretary General under supervision by an official of that agency.
The clerk of this court will advise the Secretary General that the Tribunal has made this order for that examination.
Mr. HARDY: What reference is that - to the notation of the date which is on the document?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
Dr. GAWLIK: And then on the list, Mr. President, there are documents, Exhibit 526 and 527, NO-2366 and N0-2380, which are now to be finally admitted. Document 527, NO-2380 is a legal opinion by the SS judge, Dr. Morgan. I believe it is not permissible for legal opinions to be handed in as exhibits.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may present the objection when the exhibits are offered.
Dr. GAWLIK: Then I should like to call the attention of the Tribunal to the fact that the final decision about the admission of the affidavit of the defendant Hoven, NO-429, Exhibit 281, has not been reached yet. The Tribunal postponed this decision until after the defendant Hoven was examined. I should be grateful if I could have this decision so that I can consider it in writing my closing brief.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that exhibit contained in the list which is before the Tribunal?
Mr. HARDY: Subject to the president it was admitted in evidence due to the fact it was not stricken by the Tribunal I assumed it was admitted.
THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit will be admitted in evidence.
Mr. HARDY: I believe, your Honor, defense counsel was to prepare a list as to how many remainder of supplemental documents would be presented and that list was to be ready here this morning at 9:30. I wonder if they have it ready?
THE PRESIDENT: Has defense counsel prepared the list suggested by the Tribunal yesterday afternoon as to the exhibits they propose to offer?
Any defense counsel now prepared to offer any further documents?
Mr. HARDY: Your Honor, I am not in a position to put any more prosecution evidence in at this time in as much as this document marked for identification, the index, which I checked yesterday afternoon there is a couple of errors in it - inasmuch they skipped some of the documents in cutting the stencils. I am having it recut and the books put together in a proper form. I didn't check it before they cut it but I won't have it ready until afternoon but I assure you I can take up the rest of the afternoon with the witness Hoellreiner and I think I will have my identification documents ready.
Dr. FLEMING: Mr. President, the list of when it might be expected that defense counsel could offer further material has not been completed because we have not been able to get in touch with some of the defense counsel. But, yesterday I talked with the Secretary General about the subject of translations and he told me we had to expect the translation branch to take about 2 weeks from the time documents are turned over to them before completed, Now, in the last discussion which the Court had with defense counsel the Tribunal said that all supplemental documents would be accepted which were handed in to the translation by the 3rd of July. I believe there will be considerable difficult if the Translation actually takes two weeks for completion.
THE PRESIDENT: If counsel understood the Tribunal to answer that all documents handed in for translation by the 3 July would be accepted it is in error. I am informed by the Translation bureau that counsel Fleming for the defendant Mrugowsky on last Friday, June 27 handed in I think 153 pages of a document to be translated. That was entirely too late to hand documents in for Translation. That means a task of 153 man hours to translate. I can't understand why counsel was so slow in handing those to the translation department. To hand them in on June 27 is too late to be presented for admission -- was entirely too late and beyond any human possibility of having them ready.
Dr. FLEMING: Mr. President part of the documents came into my hands only very late but I would like to point out something further. The closing briefs of the defense counsel - I don't have all the figures together, but as far as I can see now will be 1800 to 2000 pages. The Tribunal said that closing briefs had to be ready by 7 July. If the translation takes 2 weeks we will not be able to get the closing briefs in time and Mr. Vartena told me yesterday that would take up this matter with the Tribunal once again.
Mr. HARDY: As I understood it, your Honor, the Tribunal was anxious to have the colsing briefs into the translation department before 7 July and then the translation would have the closing briefs of defense counsel Prosecution could read in German using some of our German speaking attornies. And, if we had any answers to make we could do so but to file the briefs in the original language by 7 July and then it could be send to translation and by the time the case is completed, the Tribunal would have the briefs in very good form.
THE PRESIDENT: My recollection is that counsel for prosecution is correct. That the briefs were to be made by 7 July in the German language and copies of the briefs in German furnished to the Prosecution. The matter of briefs is an entirely different proposition from the matter of the documents which are evidence because as the Tribunal stated the Tribunal has insisted, that the evidence be all before the Tribunal very promptly. I don't know - the Translation department has been working very hard and I understood they would have some of the defense documents available from day to day, today, yesterday and tomorrow. Can any German defense counsel give the Tribunal any information as to how many documents are in the hands of the translation department besides the 153 pages on behalf of the defendant Mrugowsky? Has any defense counsel present before the Tribunal this morning any untranslated documents in the hands of the translation department.?
MR. HARDY: If your Honor please. If your Honor can see fit to rocess for 15 minutes, the Prosecution will endeavor to got our documents marked for identification and bring then here and present them at this time. In the meantime, defense counsel can have a conference and make out a list of just what documents they have at the translators and what documents they intend to produce.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal would suggest, or indeed insist, that defense counsel furnish some data of that nature to the Tribunal. Could not the Prosecution call the witness Hollenreiner this morning.
MR. HARDY: We can call the witness Hollenreiner any time your Honor pleases.
MR. PRESIDENT: I suggest that you call the witness Hollenreiner now.
MR. HARDY: It will take several minutes for him to be brought up from the jail, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Naturally.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, this noon, after the recess, I shall hand in a list of the defense documents which are not yet translated.
MR. HARDY: It should also be called to the attention of the defense counsel that attorney Steinbauer should be called to the Courtroom for this examination of Hollenreiner.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recces; the witness Hollenreiner may be called and the Tribunal advised as soon as he is ready. Counsel in the meantime will endeavor to procure this list of his documents.
MR. HARDY: Thank you, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Flemming?
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, I have just heard that Dr. Steinbauer has probably gone to Furth in connection with this Hollenreiner matter so that he will not be present. I shall find out immediately.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't understand how Dr. Steinbauer could have done that because the Tribunal has signed no order that will enable him to procure the information which he desires. He has probably gone to his office to prepare the order.
If you can advise him the witness will be called this morning; but he cannot have left, because if he is going without that order it would be useless.
The Tribunal will now be in recess until the Tribunal is advised that counsel is ready with the witness Hollenreiner.
(A recess was taken.)
MR. MARSHALL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. HARDY: The prosecution wishes to recall the witness Karl Hoellenrainer to the witness stand, Your Honors.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will summon tho witness Hoellenrainer.
KARL HOELLENRAINER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE SEBRING: You will raise your right hand and be sworn. I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(Witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Witness, your name again is Karl Hoellenrainer?
A. Yes,
Q. Witness, at the close of your testimony the other day, you were proceeding to tell the Tribunal about your activities after your arrival at the Dachau concentration camp?
A. Yes.
Q. How, when did you arrive for the first time at the Dachau concentration camp?
A That was about the middle of July.
Q And then you stayed at the camp hospital for a period of one or two days?
A In Auschwitz?
Q No, in Dachau, after your arrival?
A Yes, Yes, in Dachau.
Q And then you were examined physically and also X- rayed?
A Yes.
Q Then after you had been physically examined and X-rayed, what happened to you?
A Then, we came into a so-called surgical department of the hospital.
There were 40 of us men. Then a doctor came to us, a man from the Luftwaffe, and he examined us. We had to take our clothes off and, line up. And he said, "Now, you will be given good food, as good as you have never had it, and then you will be hungry. You won't get anything to eat, and you will have to drink sea water." One of the prisoners whose name was Rudi Taubmann jumped up and refused. He was in an experiment, a cold water experiment, and he didn't want to be in any more experiments. The doctor from the Luftwaffe said, "If you are not quiet, and want to rebel I will shoot you on the spot. The doctor from the Luftwaffe always had a pistol, and then we were all quiet. For about one week we got cookies, sweibach, and brown sugar. There were about 21 little cookies, and three or four little pieces of dextrose. Otherwise, we got nothing. The eight days...
Q Just a moment. Did you at any time volunteer for these experiments?
A No.
Q Were you asked whether or not you wished to volunteer for the experiments?
A No.
Q Were any of the other inmates asked if they would like to volunteer?
A No
Q Wasn't the young Mettbach a volunteer, the youngest Mettbach?
A I know only one Ernst Mettbach from Furth, but I don't know whether he volunteered.
Q Was Ernst Mettbach in the experiments throughout that is, did he complete the experiments?
A No, he was only there a short time, two or three days maybe. Then, the doctor from Luftwaffe put him out, and where he went I don't know.
Q How, did the Professor ask anyone for their approval before they were subjected to the sea water experiments?
A No.
Q Did the professor or any of the other Luftwaffe physicians talk to the inmates and advise them as to the hazards of the experiment prior to the commencement of the actual experiments?
A. No.
Q Now, will you, in detail, tell the Tribunal just what food the experimental subjects received prior to the experiments, during the course of the experiments, and after the experiments; and in doing so, witness, kindly talk very slowly and distinctly so that the interpreters will be able to translate you mere efficiently.
A Yes. At first we get potatoes, milk, and then we got these cookies and dextrose and zweibach. That was about one week. Then we got nothing. Then the doctor from the Luftwaffe said, "How, you have to drink sea water, and you will be hungry." That was about one or two weeks. This Rudi Taubmann, as I already said, got excited and didn't want to participate, and the doctor from the Luftwaffe said, "If you get excited and mutiny, I will shoot you," and then we were all quiet. Then we began to drink sea water. I drank the worst kind, that was yellowish. We drank it two or three times a day, and then in the evening, we had one liter of the yellow water. There was three kinds of water, white water, and yellow water; and I drank the yellow kind. And then after a few days, the people were cursing, they had foam at their mouth. The doctor from the Luftwaffe came with a cynical laugh and said, "Now it is time to make liver punctures." I know one very well.
Q Talk more slowly, witness. Thank you.
A Yes. The first row on the left when you came in, the second bed, that was the first one. He barked like a dog. He went crazy. He had foam at his mouth. The doctor from the Luftwaffe took him down on a stretcher with a white sheet over him, and then he stuck a needle about this long (indicating) into his right side, and there was a hypodermic needle on it, and it bled, and it was very painful. We were all quiet and excited. Then when that was ever, the other prisoners had their turn. The people were crazy from thirst and hunger, but the doctor had no pity on us. He was cold like ice. He didn't take any interest in us. Then, one gypsy -- I don't know his name anymore -- he eat a little bit of bread once, or drank some water, I don't remember just what he did, the doctor from the Luftwaffe got very angry and mad.
He took the gypsy and tied him to the bed post and sealed his mouth.
Q Witness, do you mean that he put adhesive tape over this gypsy's mouth?
A Yes.
Q Go ahead, continue.
A Then a gypsy, he was on the right, a big strong, husky fellow, he refused to drink the water. He asked the doctor from the Luftwaffe to let him go. He said he couldn't stand the water. He was sick with it. The doctor from the Luftwaffe had no pity, and he said, "No, you have to drink it." The doctor from the Luftwaffe told one of his assistants to go and get a sound. Naturally, we didn't know what a sound was. Then one of his assistants came with a red tube about that long (indicating) and thrust this tube in the gypsy's mouth first and then into his stomach.
Q Just a moment. That tube was how long? How long would that be a half a meter long?
AAbout this long (indicating.)
Q That will be about a half a meter?
A Yes, about a half a meter. And then the doctor from the Luftwaffe, he took this red tube and put it in the gypsy's mouth and into his stomach. And then he poured the water down tho tube. The gypsy kneeled in front of him and beseeched him, but that doctor had no pity.