Since this lists only Professor Rostock's scientific writings up to about the middle of the year 1937. I have prepared a further list of his scientific publications from the middle of 1937 on.
BY DR. PRIBILLA:
Q. This Document No. 4, Exhibit No. 4, I submit to you, Professor Rostock, and I ask you to tell the Tribunal that you prepared it to the best of your knowledge. I an sorry, that is Document No. 5, Exhibit 5. Exhibit 4, Document 4 is the extract from the Register of Surgeons up to 1937. Document 5, Exhibit 5 is a list of publications from 1937 on.
A. The list of the publications of books under Roman I is complete. The list of the publications of journals I have had to prepare here without any documents and solely in accordance with my memory. It is quite possible that several items are missing here. The wording of the headings of the articles I have likewise prepared by memory and there may be some more differences in the words but not according to the entire matter.
Q. But on the whole you did it to the best of your knowledge?
A. I made them to the best of my knowledge.
DR. PRIBILLA: I believe I do not need to make any explanation about this, either. I submit this list in evidence of Rostock's scientific personality.
Q. Then I should like to ask you - did you later here in the prison, for example, do any further scientific work?
A. Yes, I continued to do that work. In the prison at Nuernberg I have completed a book on the compendium of surgery and I have also completed another book about lectures with regards to surgery. However, I was unable to add the pictures which are necessary for that book.
Q. Professor, were you a member of any medical scientific societies?
A. I was a member of the International Society of Hospitals, and I was a member of the Society of Natural Scientists and Physicians. I was a member of the German Surgical Society, the Berlin Society for Surgery, the Berlin Society for Natural Science, the German Society for Unterheilkunde, and the Accident ind Insurance Society, and surgical societies in Berlin, Bochum and Jena.
Q. And did you yourself publish a scientific journal?
A. Ever since the year 1939 together with Professor Hagnus and after his death I have issued the journal for Surgery as editor.
Q. Is that a journal which is well-known in scientific circles?
A. It is the oldest German surgical journal with the largest number of publications.
Q. Were you a member of the NSDAP?
A. Yes, since the year 1938 or '39.
Q. Did you have any office in the Party or any of its branches?
A. No, I was only a nominal member.
Q. Please pause after the Question so that the translators can keep up. Why did you join the Party?
A. At that time it was obligatory to be a Party member and it was a prerequisite if I wanted to become a regular professor for surgery in a German university.
Q. In addition to that did you take any active part in politics?
A. No, I have never been active politically and politics do not generally interest me.
Further, my professional activity to ok so much of my time that I did not have any other spare time. In this connection I could perhaps quote a comparison which I read, several days ago in the Spinoza novel. It is stated there: "Science is a beautiful woman; it does not tolerate any other woman in the heart of its lover."
Q. Professor were you a member of the SA*er of the SS?
A. No, I have never been a member.
Q. Professor Leibrandt on the witness stand here told the Tribunal about the teachers' camps. Were you yourself trained in such a camp?
A. No, I was graduated according to the procedure which was followed prior to 1939. Therefore, so to speak, I am a lecturer.
Q. Did you ever take part in courses at the medical school at Altrehse?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever teach at a Schooling camp at Altrehse?
A. No I did not do that either.
Q. You were head of the Surgical University Clinic in Berlin, Ziegel Strasse, until the end?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you very busy there?
A. Already during the peacetime and then also after the war broke out I was very much occupied. The number of patients has already been named here which went through my Polyclinic. On the average there were about twenty thousand patients there annually. I had to direct this polyclinic and the clinic, and, of course, I personally had to carry out a large number of operations. In addition to this I furthered my scientific activity with lectures and also by giving State examinations, physicians' examinations, and also some other occupations. With the beginning of the air attacks on Berlin, a considerable amount of time was taken from me, and ever since that time i have slept at the clinic in order to be able to be present there at all times.
Q. During the war you were also a consulting surgeon in the Army Medical Inspectorate. Please describe your activity there to the Tribunal.
A. First of all, I had to consult with the inspector and members of his staff with single surgical questions. I further had to deal with the reports which arrived from home and the front-line hospitals. I had to look them ever and I had to give an evaluation of them, and the most important items were summarized of these reports every six to eight works, and they were then sent to the Army Physician and the Army Corps Area Physician. I further had to prepare the collection of material for scientific work about the medical experiences during the war which was to be written after the war, and this work was also carried out to a considerable extent.
Q Well, when you were the consultant surgeon, what was your task as to attending the meetings?
A Yes, I participated in the conferences.
Q The meetings what was called "consultant meetings" which were mentioned even here, who called these meetings?
A These conferences were called by the Army Medical Inspector; later on by the Medical Inspector of the Wehrmacht.
Q Did you yourself have anything to do with the preparing for these meetings?
A No, I had nothing to do with it. The preparations were handled by a so called working staff, which was composed of several members of the Department for Science and Health in the Army Medical Inspectorate. I believe that previously Dr. Handloser stated that more in detail.
Q I shall like to ask you, were you one of the many consultant surgeons, or did you have any special position among these other surgeons?
A No, a large number of consultant surgeons participated, and the number of participants in a conference were between three hundred and fourhundred people.
Q It is said that a section of the Army Medical Inspectorate prepared for these meetings. Who was the head of this section?
A That was Generalarzt -- Generaloberstabsarzt Schreiber.
Q How were such meetings, what was such a meeting like?
A First of all a common conference took place in a big room of the Military Academy, and then the participants were separated into various individual groups, and then they went to other smaller rooms, and at their conference they would assemble, the internists, the hygienists, the surgeons, and the pharmacologists, in the end another common conference took place in the big meeting room.
Q You just said that you did not have any especially high position among the various consulting surgeons. Could you tell me in a quiet way if at the meeting in May 1943 you were a chairman in a specialized group for surgery? 3266
A The presidents of those specialists groups were always the consulting hygienists, or surgeons of these specialists groups. That since during that when I was consulting surgeon of the Army Medical Inspectorate, I was charged with the direction of the specialists' group for surgery.
Q If I understand you correctly, the chairmanship was changed at every meeting, and among what persons would it fluctuate?
AAs long as it was an Army conference, and I believe that was so up to the year of 1942, that was the consulting surgeon of the Army Medical Inspectorate, and afterwards then it became the Wehrmacht conference, and the consultant surgeons of the Army, Navy and the Luftwaffe changed. The Navy did not have any consulting surgeon in the branch.
Q Then this meeting in 1943 was a Wehrmacht meeting?
A Yes, that was already a Wehrmacht conference.
Q And if I understand you correctly, it was a coincidence that you accepted for the Army, and happened to be the chairman?
A Yes.
Q Of these reports from the lectures held in the specialists groups for surgery, were you notified of them because you were the chairman?
A No, I have already stated that the working staff were informed of the lectures that were to be given, and this working staff also compiled this program for the conference, which was very extensive. The working staff also received the manuscript of the reports by the consulting surgeons and physicians, and it also compiled a printed report, as they have been pre sented here by the Prosecution in the form of these green booklet
Q. Did you personally know the subject before the meeting, when Gebhardt was going to report on sulfanilamide,about what he was going to report on?
A. I naturally read it from the program that he would give on the lecture, which already distributed two weeks ahead of time. However, I did not know a thing what was going to deal with in this lecture, that is why the common procedure in scientific meetings.
Q. After the speech did you receive the manuscript which Professor or Gebhardt turned in?
A. No, I never received the manuscript. It was sent to the working staff. The chairmen of these specialists groups only had the task to make out the notices as to the discussions which were taking place.
Q. And to when did they turn ever any of these notes?
A. They also went to the working staff. They were also responsible afterwards for those printed reports.
Q. Please say again, where was the working staff and who was in charge of it?
A. The working staff was located in the Medical -- Army Medical Inspectorate. Its director was Generalarzt Schreider, who was supported by members of this department.
Q. At the meeting in 1943, did you yourself hear Professor Gebhardt's speech?
A. Yes, I heard it personally.
Q. What did you think, when you hear Professor Gebhardt's speech as to the manner and the execution?
A. Professor Gebhardt said the following: That the experiments been carried out on purple who had been sentenced to death,and who then were granted a pardon. Then he further stated that the loyal aspect of this matter had been decided on, and, that, therefore, discussion on the matter was not necessary. If I reckon right, he did not state that the experiments had been carried out in the concentration camp.
He certainly did not mention the name of RavensGrueck, because until I came to Nurnberg I did not even know of such a place existed in Germany, that a concentration camp was located there. I am quite certain he did not say that Polish women had be involved. I heard that for the first time here in the course of a preliminary examination.
Q. After this speech, or during the speech, when you heart what you have just stated, what did you --
A. Yes, I have dont that. I have tired to place myself into the situation of a person who has been condemed to death, and I have told myself that in such as situation, If I had been given a chance to gain a change in the punishment, or a pardon, or, that if I were to get over with an artificial afflicted infection with sulfamilamide that I would have been very glad to have such a chance.
Q. Then you have taken this into consideration --
MR. MCHANEY: If Your Honor, please, the question of Dr. Pribilla was not fully translated we which this response was given, and I not understand whether he went through this thinking process which the witness has just described on the occasion of Dr. Gebhardt's speech in May 1943, or, whether he is now giving an aftersight justification.
THE PRESIDENT: Doctor, it did not come through here either. Suppose you repeat it -- repeat you question. The members of the Tribunal did not get the entire translation. BY DR. PRIBILLA:
Q. I asked and I shall ask you again whether you had at that time or later these considerations?
A. I had made this consideration at that time. Shall I repeat to you once more?
THE PRESIDENT: If satisfactory to both counsel the Tribunal has ruled. Counsel may proceed.
BY DR. PRIBILLA Q. That was what you said at that time.
Well, did you talk to their people about it at the time, and, did this speech and these facts attract special attention?
A. No. I have not discussed that subject with anybody, and the lecturer did not draw any particular attention to it, as the effect of sulfanilamide was discussed not only solely in connection witt the lecture of Gebhardt, but at the time about four or five more lectures were given on the subject, and about six or seven people discussed this which complex question.
Q. Now I must ask you, how do you explain the fact that this speech did not attract special attention. Was the manner of presentation such that it was not very noticeable, or what; or, what was the explanation that you had?
A. In his introductory speech, Gebhardt stated the same thing that plays a part here in the trial, namely the jurist basis of the whole matter, that this had been approved by prominent jurist agencies so that me did not have any cause to discuss this problem at all.
Q. And you did not get any reaction from among the other professors present?
A. Nobody discussed this aspect of the question with me; of course we had discussed in detail the effects of sulfanilamide.
Q. Had you yourself personally dealt with sulfanilamide scientifically
A. That of course in only natural, because at the time the sulfanilamide problem was the problem of the theoretical practical war surgeons and in the previous year, I myself had given a lecture in which I referred to the questions which still had not been verified and of which there was still a large number.
Q. Did you yourself have the intention or working in the field of sulfanilamide?
A. Yes. In the lecture, which I have just mentioned, I stated that I myself would have examinations made at my clinic of certain pre-requisite for that could be filled. At the time, I stated that the effect of the sulfanilamide appeared especially important to me in the basic research, because we had a very large number of disinfection medicines, but all of them were not sufficient in order to prevent an infection of the wounds. The sulfanilamide seemed to show a new way to us, however, it possibly would be going to much into detail if we discussed this any further here.
Q. As you are speaking of that time, you mean your speech in 1942?
A. Yes, that was in 1942.
Q. I should like to ask you to tell the Tribunal how you intended to carry out this work; was that mentioned in this speech, or perhaps you can state it briefly.
A. I had the following idea, that with the wounds of soldiers, who had been injured and that those daily injuries which took place in the larger cities, that I myself wanted to observe it chemically.
That furthermore the physiological examinations should be carried out on the wounds, that also examination of the blood and urine should be carried out with regards to quality as well as quantity. They were usually carried out in the healing of wounds.
Q. Did you actually carry out this work?
A. No, in order to be able to place these examinations on a very broad. basis, I required a psychologist, a chemist or pharamacist and also a bacteriologist, however, these people were not furnished to me by the Wehrmacht. The transfer of injured soldiers to my clinic failed for purely formal reasons.
Q. If you had these conditions in 1942 and made this speech at the meeting; do you believe that the experiments of Professor Gebhardt, which he reported on in 1943, might have been instigated by your speech in 1942?
A. No, I do not believe that. I have already stated that sulfanilamide problems occupied most all of the physicians at that time, not only the surgeons, but also all the other branches of medicine. In the year 1942 I was not the only one to speak, but also four or five other surgeons discussed the same subject, also a neurologist spoke. Like explanations were given by a bacteriologist and a pharmacist. Several of the people there were very enthusiastic about the effects of sulfanilamide and they called it a "wonder drug", however, there were several people who were more reserved.
Q. Do you remember any names of other surgeons who reported or spoke about sulfanilamide at the same meeting as you? I beg your pardon, I understand that other surgeons spoke in addition to you?
A. Yes, surgeons. I am quite sure that Sauerbruch also spoke, Kilian, Krueger, Wachsmuth and I believe Pfruendt also spoke.
Q. Were they all consulting surgeons?
A. Yes, all of them were consulting surgeons.
Q. Now I sum up. One cannot say that your speech brought up the problem for the first time and thus caused the experiments?
A. No, the problem itself had already existed for several years. I cannot tell you exactly any more when it was publicized for the first time and that may have been five or six years later. I have further stated that all those who occupied themselves with at that time, and especially Dr. Gebhardt, tried to find a solution through their own way.
Q. You said before that your own planned investigations were not realized; did you no longer work in this field or did you do anything more?
A. Of course sulfanilamide was used in my clinic. Furthermore, in my capacity as consulting surgeon with the Army Medical Inspectorate I also pointed but the importance of this matter and suggested that several research troops, under the guidance of particularly qualifier surgeons, well equipped with personnel and medicine, also with laboratory equipment, should be sent to the front line hospitals and they should there study the effects on wounds, which had been inflicted in the course of combat. Accordingly, two such troops were established under Professors Hellner and Koestler.
Q. Did you inform Professor Gebhardt of your efforts in the matter for sulfanilamide or rather in 1942 or 1943 was there my scientific or personal contact with Professor Gebhardt?
A. No, I did not inform him and we did not have any contact whatsoever about it.
Q. And on the other hand Professor Gebhardt did not give you any information about his efforts?
A. No, he did not do that.
Q. At this same meeting, which you attended as consulting surgeon, Professor Gebhardt and Dr. Koestler made a speech about operations and n* nerve injuries; was a similar announcement made in this case that they were human experiments?
A. No, not a word was mentioned about that.
Q. From what was said, would one have to draw any such conclusion?
A. No, that conclusion could not be drawn either.
Q. At the same meeting in 1943 at the gathering of hygienists, a speech was given by Dr. Ding about typhus; did you hear this speech and did you learn anything about it?
A. No, I did not hear this lecture because it took place simultaneously with the surgeon's lectures, but it was taking place in some other room and I naturally had to attend the surgical lectures.
DR. PRIBLLA: Mr. President, I have now concluded my question referring to Profess r Rostock's activities as consulting surgeon. Now I begin a new subject of his activities from the year of 1943 on and the subject for the section for science and research. If the President agrees, I will continue after the recess.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session. May it please your Honors, the defendant Oberheuser, having open excused, is absent for the balance of this afternoon.
DR. PRlBILLA: Mr. President, I should like your indulgence; and I should like to call your attention again to Document 1, Exhibit 1. I was so brief in my examination that I should only like to refer once more to what section is coming now. I have finished my questions concerning the activity of Prof. Rostock in the years 1939, 1940, 1941, 1942, to the end of the year 1943; and now I am beginning, with questions concerning the activity indicates by the small arrow in the middle at the bottom.
Q. Prof Rostock, you have known the defendant Karl Brandt for sometime?
A. I've known him ever since he was assistant at the hospital at Bochum.
Q. Did you have contact with Karl Brandt constantly during the war?
A. We saw each other on very rare occasions. He was located in tho Fuehrer's headquarters; and I was at the front with the army and also in Berlin.
Q. Were you informed about what I did during the war up to the end of 1943?
A. No.
Q. What do you know about the decree of the 28th of July, 1942, concerning the medical and health system? This is Document NO-O8O, Exhibit 5, of the prosecution.
A. From this decree I found out that there were difficulties with regard to medical material and also personnel; and of course it interested me to know that Karl Brandt had received an assignment in that respect.
Q. On the basis of the decree of 1942 did you take over any official activity for Karl Brandt?
A. No, I did not take over any official activities.
Q. Did you do any work for him unofficially?
A. Mr. Brandt has already stated here that he worked on the planning for the reconstruction of the Berlin University clinics and the medical institute. He was working on the establishment of special hospital facilities. These were evacuation hospitals for the bombed out cities. Then occasionally with regards to the establishment of these hospitals I was asked about these questions.
Furthermore, the limitations of production began around this period of time with regard to medical instruments, X-ray apparatus, medicines; and I was also asked questions in this respect on various occasions.
Q. But otherwise you did not know what Karl Brandt was doing?
A. No.
Q. How did it happen that on the basis of the decree of the 5th of September 1943, this Document NO-081, Prosecution Exhibit 6, you were given work for Karl Brandt?
A. After the decree had been issued he approached me with a request.
Q. What reasons influenced you in spite of the work which you already had to help him?
A. I had seen the shrinking which constantly grew out of the research possibilities with regard to science and medicine. I had further soon the attempts which could be traced back to Conti, not only to involve the German medical profession in politics but also the entire medical science. I consider this a wrong development. In addition to this there were some especially acute problems. First of all, there were the attempts which also originated with Conti at the time in 1943, the fall, a close all the universities and medical faculties in Germany. We were able to prevent this at the very last minute.
Then I heard that the lecturing facilities for physicians and the research possibilities of the scientists were deteriorating more and more as a result, of the fact that the medical press as well as the production of books with regard to scientific subjects and student training and text books became small and smaller. Finally I knew that lecturing for the German scientists about the experiences collected abroad had came to a complete standstill.
Q. You were already head of the Surgical Clinic, Generalarzt in the Army, Consulting Surgeon, Dean of the Medical Faculty at Berlin. If, in addition, you took over such a job for Commissioner General Brandt, was there not a certain ambition to be still more important in Germany?
A. There was no personal ambition involved as far as the scientific laboratory work was concerned. That did not cause me to occupy this position. I was trying to help German science in a time of emergency as it has rarely be seen, as far as I was able to do that. I was trying to improve the knowledge which was available and to save it until such a time as peace would again in existence. The sacrifice which I made at the time was perhaps greater then can generally be assumed. Afterwards it can perhaps be said that perhaps it would have been better if I had occupied myself with my own scientific work, and there was plenty of it, and which was destroyed in the last few days of the war. In the many years of my clinical activity I had collected a large amount of experience with regards to the pathology of the joints and this was to be compiled into a greater work. It consisted of an extensive study of literature, of case histories, x-ray charts, microscopic preparation and all this has now been burned and the book will never be written. However even if I did not succeed in everything which I was striving for in my position, I still believe that my activity has done some good because if, during the last few years of the war,the bases for research have not been completely destroyed and if not everything has been described as unimportant and has been destroyed and burned then I believe that I have played a certain part in this respect - namely, in preserving it. However, that I would ever be accused, on account of my activity, or that I would be exposed to such monstrous acquisations, I have never even dreamed of that.
Q. At the beginning of your activity did you get a written statement from Brandt, or a notice of appointment, or anything like that?
A. Such a document was in existence. Today I cannot clearly say, under oath, if it was signed. Therefore I cannot answer you with yes or no. It possible that it was not signed. I did not place any special emphasis on such administrative details.
Q. Did you have the impression that by the decree of September 1943 a science and research in Germany was out under you?
A. No, not at all. Mr. Lammers has expressed the fact very clearly. In my opinion, that also in the field of science and research Brandt was only told to solve and to carry out special assignments, as it has also been stated in the decrees which have been mentioned here so often. Minister Lammers be likewise stated that it had not been intended to give Brandt such a leading top position. He further stated that his budget was purposely kept at a very low level and that for this reason alone it was not possible to carry out such an extensive activity. Perhpas I can explain this in the best way if I tell you how many collaborators I had. I had four medical students, who furthermore worked at the clinic, and I had about two or three clerks. That instituted my whole staff and I believe that this indicates clearly that with these five men, let us say, and three women, I could not exercise with this staff any large activity which was to extend over the whole medical field in Germany.
Q. You spoke of several decrees. I may correct that. At the moment you0 are dealing only with the decree of September 1942.
A. Yes, that is the one I am referring to.
Q. Now on the basis of this appointment and this decree what was your activity in effect? How did it begin and what did you deal with?
A. Aside from the beginning to where this acute problem of closing the schools of higher learning, I began in the autumn of 1942, in the offices in my clinic with the help of some of my assistants and for the time being who one secretary, I began my work with regard to the whole scientific situation in Germany. This work made relatively little progress because I had a large number of other things to do also and the constancy air raid alarms in Berlin also were not suitable to guarantee a continuity of the work. In order to carry out my work I obtained a list of personnel and literature of the university clinics and I had them evaluated by my collaborators. In this way obtained a certain insight into the situation at the universities. However it was much more difficult to find out if now the individual people were actually working at their institutes at home or if they had been conscript for military service and they were working abroad.
Therefore, the insight was able to obtain was lacking in many respects. Of course no activity cou te carried out in this field for the time being.
Q. Was anything changed when - I believe it was in February 1944 - you exercised this activity no longer in your clinic but in the office in Belit near Berlin?
A. The work at Belitz was, of course, carried out much more slowly, the other hand the separation of the clinic and the dean's office was very hampering, especially since the telephone connections failed rather frequently and so I had to drive to Berlin by car almost an hour every day and back.
Q. Please say in a little more detail what you actually did in this time; what your work was.
A. At the time I had the impression that special research was the main interest and that, of course, is understandable in times of war. Everybody was trying, as quickly as possible, to be able to achieve some special success, and they all wanted to be able to submit corresponding reports. This was done in particular by young, inexperienced men who were lacking the supervising eye and the guiding hand of an experienced chief. This development was seen to be very dangerous to me because without a sufficiently broad basis no research can be carried out for the duration. It must then lead to failures eventually. As a result of this, I directed my special attention directly to basic research and I tried to carry it on until the end of the war.
Q. Can you tell us the difference between basic research and special research?
A. This could perhaps be done best by means of an example. First of all from natural science and technic. The construction of an effective atom bomb is Zweckforschung, which is special research, research for the basis and the laws of the spontaneous combustion of the atoms and the arbitrary destruction of atoms, that is basic research. Take an example for medicine, research about the effect of a virus, and the changes which it affects in the body of animal and human beings, that is basic research; and the establishment of an effective vaccine against this virus and effective treatment of a disease, that is special research, Zweckforschung.
Q. And now with your work you tried to promote and maintain basic research.
A. Yes.
Q. How did you do that?
A. The first thing I did was that the individual scientists in certain fields were called to come in conferences, and I have organized these conferences quite systematically. For example, they took place as to the field of penicillin and the microscopic electronic, for example with the occasion of the last conference, which lasted two days, not only medical men gave lectures, but also chemists, physicists, scientists, textile specialists biologicalists and all other specialized people. The purpose of such a conference was not to give special research assignments, but it was to give general ideas in these fields, and similar discussions were under preparation about research on the brain current, on the tissue cultures and Spor element, and ultra sound.
Q. Perhaps I may interrupt for a moment. These difficult words, if I understand you correctly, express certain things which are necessary in very civilized state as a prerequisite and basis if any research work is to be done at all?
A. They were problems which not only in my opinion but also in the opinion of a large number of other people would probably play a rather important part in the future. But that was not the only thing, it was just as the general horizon was to be extended also the tools of the scientists had to he maintained and improved and it succeeded, and I have already stated this previously, before, with regards to preserving medical literature and the production of books.
Of course, at the time no scientific work was practically, possible, and also informing German scientists about the results of research abroad. This was also in the early stages at the end of 1944.
Q. May I interrupt you for a moment, Professor; were all these things which were the prerequisites for research, were they endangered at that time, and would it have been very bad if all these things had been stopped?
A. The danger was very great. That was at a period of time when the literature and books were not printed any more in Germany, and we only succeeded because we were able to prove that the paper which was used for the medical journals -- there were still approximately 60 to 70 in Germany---that they used much less paper in the course of one month than the paper used by a single edition of a daily journal or newspaper, and perhaps it would be characteristic to point out that the medical decisions were not so decisive so that time than the War, the scientific termination as to the amount of paper used.
Q. Then that argument helped you better than the scientific argument?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, in the winter of 1943 and 1944 did this activity to preserve basic research take up very much of your time?
A. In this activity much of my time was used, still I could not deal with any specific tasks on the special research. I want to point out once more the number of my collaborators which I have mentioned previously, and my office was kept in such a modest frame and with such a limited budget that I have to limit, myself to the look question which I have mentioned.