The public health service at first was independent of that agency, and was subordinated to the Undersecretary of State, Conti. Physicians of the Reich Chamber of Physicians worked in that service, or physicians that had been loaned to that organization by the Wehrmacht such as my case. The Vulksdoutsche Mittelstelle on the other hand endeavored to transfer these physicians that participated in the resettlement work to the SS. Since I refused my entry to the SS an disnee in addition I . had a number of scraps with them concerning some fundamental interests, and that with a number of higher SS loaders I wash asked to resign and be replaced by an SS physician. In the year 1944 I was invited to be a president for a new reich institution which was yet to be founded, an institution for insect pests dangerous to human health, and for professional reasons was supported by Centi, The SS at that time tried to get the field of insect control under their authority, since Himmler personally was interested in that subject. This fact can also be seen from Sievers diary which contained in the files of the tribunal. In the Commitee for disinfection I had already opposed any that any special place be reserved for the SS in that field. In addition tc that I from the resettlement I was knew as a troublesome collaborator and it was not difficult for the Getleman of the SS who were interested to dissuade Hammler from requesting my appointment, who in the mantime had become Minister of the Interior.
DR. FRITZ: Mr. President, with reference to the difficulties which Rose suffered in that regard, I offer Rose Document, NO 4, as Exhibit, no 4 an affidavit made by Dr, Gerhard Peters, on the 28th of February 1947. This can be found in the Document, pages 8 to 10, Document Book, no 1, I should like to read the most essential parts of that document, and I quote on page 1, paragraph 2:
" I have known Professor Dr. Rose since the early years of the war,for, as a consultant hygienist of the Luftwaffe, dealt closely with all questions of insect control and engaged his department in respective scientific work. Independent of this, he was assigned in May 1942 by the Reich health Leader as a member to the Working Committee on De-verminization and epidemic control, including the supply of equipment, manpower and General enlightenment.
Professor Rose here gave valuable and energetic assistance, I came to know him personally during this work and learned to estimate him for his incorruptible objectivity.
" It had been intended to appoint Professor Rose president of a special Reich Institute for vermin control which was to be established in 1944, an appointment which was generally approved in expert circles. This proposal had the be the special support of the under Secretary Dr. Conti. Rose, however, was turned down in SS circles, of Himmler's entourage for the reason that he was " too difficult" Sturmbannfuchrer Pflaum, who had been appointed ' Special Commisioner for Vermin Control' by the Reichsfuchrer SS was a particular opponent of Rose, and constatly criticized the work of the Committee for its lack of compliance with the Party and the SS. Finally instead of Rose, an SS candidate was considered. Rose did not even then change his often expressed hostile attitude concerning the wishes of the SS, nor his critical rejection of the Machinations of the then personal physician Professor Merell "(Russia power") but rather further anta?onized the opposition through his support of my work in the Committee and by his intercession on my behalf - I was threatened with arrest by the SS-."
Now comes the signature of Dr. Gerhard Peters. T"is affidavit was certified.
Q Now, Professor, Dr. Peters, in the affidavit I have just read speaks of difficulties which you had with the SS in the field of insect control. Could you please describe those matter in greater detail, so that they become more understandable?
A It was at first a fundamental clash when the working com mittee was founded. Those committees had been founded by Minister Speer, as independent administrative organs of the industry. I was to represent in this committee the interest of the civilian consumers, namely the civilian health authorities the private persons. The committee was todecide what means for insect control could yet be produced, what firms were those means, what factories had to be stopped and what personnel of those factories had to be transferred to other factories.
Furthermore, it was to be decided how the products were to be distributed among the various meeting groups. During the first meeting where all the interested parties were invited, the representative of the SS is rejected giving in to decisions of that committee. He said whenever Himmler was interested in producing any means for the combatting of insect control it would have to be controlled anyway. He further said the SS did not think of submitting to the decision of that committee regarding the distribution of quotes to the various parties. At that time I rejected any independent position of the SS, including the Reichs Fuehrer, because at that time the president hesitated in voicing his opinion, although it was his business to make this rejection. This of course was afterwards always hold against me. For reasons which I don't know, Himmler was personally interested in combatting insects.
That was always maintained by his representative. They even tried to get the professional organizatiens and insect control under their supervision. One of its heads a certain Mr Demmer was arrested without our ever knowing the reasons why. Some agent of the SS was established as a trustee. Similar plans were made against the president of our committee. He could only be put into that because of the interference of Government or institutions, who were interested in the smooth working of the committee. I personally was only concerned in as much as it was worked against my appointment as president I would gladly accepted that position in order to become the president of an independent institute. Himmler, of course, was in position to prevent such an appointment since he was a Reich minister. I personally hover knew why the SS had such a special interest in the field of insect control. The conflicts with Himmler's personal physician, Dr. Morrell, came about for the reason that he was producing an inactive lice means in his own factory. This was ordered by Hitler for the Army, since Morrell managed to represent this drug in a wrong light.
Dr. Morrell was known in this matter as notorious. Since he was using the same raw materials that another time could have used that was using a more effective drug, conflicts with the committee arose. Finally, I started to be very interested in the production of DDT preparations, something which was combatted by Morrell, because it had a tendency to limit his own production of his lice powder. It was all a very poor chapter.
Q At any rate, during the outbreak of the war you were professor with the Robert Koch Institute in Berlin and also director of Hygiene of that Institute?
A Yes, that was my position.
Q Did you also have certain assignments abroad?
A Yes, in 1943 the medical director of the Basle University at Basic put me on the proposal list as an expert in hygiene at their university at Basle, and then in the year 1944 I, including two candidates, was intended to be selected for the Turkish Public Health Office in Ankara. Both assignments for political reasons did not come about.
DR. FRITZ: In order to substantiate the proposal to assign Professor Rose to the University of Basle, I offer a document which was sent to me by tho faculty of Basle, which can be found on page 11, up to page 14, of my document book. This is Rose Document 5, and Rose Exhibit No. 5 This is a certified excerpt of the opinion of the faculty insofar as Professor Rose is mentioned therein. This document is rather interesting, since it compares itself with the year 1943. Naturally, it was very difficult at that period of time to put a german in position of a lecturer at a Swiss University, and here in this document is explained why. In spite of those considerations professor Rose was suggested. I ask you to take a notice of that document, and I do not intend to road it.
THE PRESIDENT: (The Court will now recess:
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again insession.
BY DR. FRITZ:
Q Professor, two short questions. The Persecutor, for reasons unknown to me, has made the subject of your evidence, the fact that you were a board and miss Schmidt said you didn't have a board when she saw you, is that right, or did you always were a board?
A For twenty-one years, from 1922 until 1942, I were a moustache. From 1929 until 1936 I were a full one which was famous on the whole chinese coast and of a caricature was made of me then the mustache was the main point. In 1942 I removed it. Now in the Nuernberg prison I have let it grow again because when I came here the razor is taken away from the prisoners to prevent suicide and we were shaved every ten days at that time and if I have to run around with a beard nine days out of ten, I thought I might as well grow a beard.
Q Another question, the Prosecution when examining the witness, Schmidt, had her tell him how you created her during an exhibition in Strassbourg. Was that customary at all times?
A No, only when I was in uniform. What the witness described rather accurately was the prescribed salute for military personnel in the German Wehrmacht in closed rooms without head covering. The witness no doubt saw that salute frequently during the German occupation in Strasbourg.
Q When the war broke out were you drafted into the Wehrmacht?
A Yes, the Luftwaffe.
Q "Would you please describe the development of your official work after being drafted into the army?
A Immediately after I was drafted on the 26th August, 1939 I was offered the position of a consulting: hygienist under the medical inspectorate of the lUftwaffe. I remained in this position until the end of the war, only formally a fee changes took place during the war at a time which I no longer recall. The name " consulting hygienist" was changed and made " consulting hygienist and tropical hygienist." When the pc sition of the medical inspector was changed to the chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe my title was also changed.
Also when the group of consulting physicians was ape abandoned in 1944; a second consulting hygienist under the chief cf the Medical Service cf the Luftwaffe was appointed.
Q What was the military rank you held?
A I was drafted as Oberarzt of the Reserve, equivalent to 1st Lieutenant; in 1940 I became Stabsarzt, equivalent to Captain; in 1941 Oberstabsarzt, equivalent to Major; in 1942 Oberfeldarzt, equivalent to Lt. Colonel; in 1943 Oberstazt, equivalent to Colonel; and finally about eight days before the collapse, 1 May 1945, I became Generalarzt which is equivalent to Brig. General, Medical Reserve Corps.
Q How much time did your military activities take up
A That changed considerably in the course of time. In the beginning of 1939 I was only claimed for a very minor period of time. Most of my time I could still devote to work in the Institute and to my lectures. At the request of State Secretary Conti I was assigned as Hygienist to Resettlement in the winter of 1939-1940. during the campaign in France in 1940 I had no military duties but after this campaign it was again proposed at the end of 1940 for three months to be assigned to resettlement to Bessarabia and Bukowina and in 1941 there was a decisive change. My duties for the Luftwaffe became so demanding that I had to work all day at my Luftwaffe office.
Q Why was this change?
A. There was a basic change in the organization in the Hygiene Service of the Luftwaffe. Originally the practice had been hygiene as territorial affair and territorial affairs were to be settled for the Army by the Luftwaffe at the same time. During the War this practice proved to be unfeasible. The Hygiene Service of the Army was so over-burdened that it could take care only of its own interests. The Theater of War kept expand ing.
africa, Italy, Balkan, Creta, Greece were added. In the summer of 1941 there was added the Russian front too. The Luftwaffe was often commissioned in areas where it was alone or where it was preponderant. The extent of the hygiene duties increased. The Luftgay physicians had offices for hygienists under them which had existed only under air Fleet physicians. There was the necessity of having our own bacteriological laboratories for the Luftwaffe set up - the so-called motor field laboratories. Also, measures against lice in the Luftwaffe were assigned to the Medical Service. Tropical Hygiene which in 1941 had been insignificant suddenly became important. Since the Luftwaffe did not have old regular hygiene offices this whole organization had to be built up during the War with reserve officers. Of course, that made a great deal of basic work for the central office. In addition questions of Tropical medicine were completely new for the troop physicians. That made a great many official trips necessary, to hold lectures and to instruct the officers or to investigate conditions among the troops.
Q How could you combine your strong military duties with your civilian activity?
A During my absence for several months in 1939 to 1940 for Racial Gorman Resettlement I assigned work in my section in the Robert Koch Institute to my assistants who had to work more or less independently according to my long range instructions. In the lectures I had my assistants organized to represent me. I had dictated manuscripts of all my lectures. Of course, there were individual difficulties but during the War one had to make concessions in many fields. Other offices, too, were unable to go on a peace time basis. Besides, I had the special good fortune to have two experience tropical doctors as my assistants in my section who were not obligated to the Military service.
That made things a little easier. In addition I had to increase the amount of work which I did myself. I had to subordinate all personal matters. I had to work in the evening and at night. Very many other people did the same thing during the war. We all know that we were fighting for our existence.
Q Well, how was your work and practice?
AAs the name of my office shows my activity was that of an advisor. I gave advice orally and in writing. This was not limited to the Medical Inspector himself, he was also advisor for the whole office, anyone who wanted to have my opinion on a question the inspector, his Chief of Staff, and Section Chiefs could call me in for personal discussion. The referenten could come to sec me. The questions were presented and I gave my opinion. Simple matters were sometimes settled by telephone, or documents, reports from two doctors of other agencies were sent to me with a request for a written opinion or for a comprehensive opinion to be worked out. Or, I was called upon to prepare drafts and memorandum for instructions concerning my specialized field. I was also sent drafts made by other consulting physicians, perhaps from consulting internists or consultants for skin and venerial diseases to supplement such points in them which referred to hygiene. In addition I was also sent important reports for my attention even if no opinion was required from mo so that I would be informed about the matters discussed in them.
Q What questions wore worked on by you?
A In principle all the scientific side of the field of hygiene and tropical hygiene, unless in individual cases other specialists were called in for consultation by the Inspectorate.
Also from 1943 on the field of causes of death in air war and the prevention and reduction of health damages and death among the civilian population in air raids. Some time from the middle of 1943 to the middle of 1944 on that was the field which took most of my time, after basic clarification of the most important points in this field had been achieved, as my lecture in 1944 in Hohenlychen indicates, the amount of work in this field was lessened for me so that I could devote more time to hygiene questions.
Q In addition to working on such assignments did you have any other tasks?
A I also had to give many lectures which wore made according to special instructions for post graduate courses for Luftwaffe Doctors in Berlin. Also, training courses organized by the Air Fleet or Airgau physicians where I was asked to hold lectures. I also gave a series of **** lectures to students of the Medical academy of the Luftwaffe after they completed their studies. I often had to hold lectures to non-military audiences on non-air raid measures. On tropical medicine I also lectured for training courses of the army at special request. I have only mentioned the important fields and there were quite a number of others.
Q You were adding something before when describing your field of activity in that you were dealing with the entire field of hygiene and tropical hygiene. It must be said then, as far as you know, other specialists were used, What docs this limitation mean?
A That means that in limited fields the Medical I spectorate did not call upon me but another specialist for advice.
That could be done for three reasons, first that I had too much work and myself asked that the work be given to some one else. That was for example the reason a second hygienist was appointed in the beginning of 1944 because I had too much to do with the problem of damage from air warfare and my DDT work.
Secondly, that might happen if the Inspector was of the opinion that, for a certain question, he had a better specialist working under him or if I myself said that in certain fields I had no practical experience and that some one else would be better. In the third place, that happened if the Inspectorate did not agree with my opinion but did not want to act on its own initiative against my advice but wanted a second opinion.
Q. Can you cite any examples for that?
A. For example, the training of the Luftwaffe medical service in decontamination questions. I was eliminated from that. The reason was that when this arrangement was created in questions of gas decontamination I had represented a basically different point of view then the Inspector Professor Hippko who did not agree with me. Therefore, all those courses were turned over to the consulting hygionist of Air Fleet 5 who agreed with the Inspector. Another example, in the creation of our bacteriological laboratories for the Luftwaffe, I had opposed them. I had said we should rely on the Army laboratories. When the decision fell out against me because Medical Inspector Hippko wanted to make himself independent to a large extent, I continued to hold the point of view that one needed at least the normal equipment of an Army laboratory. Here again the Inspector wanted a solution for the Luftwaffe alone. Since I made difficulties, this duty was also assigned to another consulting hygienist.
Q. In such cases you could no longer influence those matters. could you?
A. No, I did occasionally receive reports about them for my knowledge, but no longer offered any advice in this field. One scientific advisor is normally sufficient. Then it requires merely the executive decision. Only by exception, when there are doubts, does one seek for a second opinion. I was, moreover, so overworked that I did not have any ambition to have an absolute monopoly on advice in my field. Generally, I was very happy if the work was done by some other specialist even if it was done differently than I would have done it. I am old enough to know that there are many roads to Rome and that very often one can do a thing in several ways and the final result will be the same.
Q. Were your suggestions of any influence to the Inspector? Did he abide by them of necessity?
A. My advice was in no way binding on the Inspector. The examples which I have mentioned show that there were differences of opinion on basic questions where sometimes exactly the opposite was done from what I had advised. Of course, there were exceptions. In general, my advice was accepted and my drafts. Perhaps they were revised and adjusted to the needs of the troops. If he had not considered my work in general useful, in spite of isolated cases of differences of opinion, I would hardly have remained in the same position during the whole war.
Q. Well then, how were the drafts of your suggestions worked on after you submitted them?
A. After the commanding officer of the Group Science and Research had taken notice of them and signed them, they went in writing to tie Medical Inspectorate.
There they were treated like incoming mail from outside; that is, according to significance and contents they were sent to the Chief of Staff or to one of the section chiefs and were dealt with by the referent concerned according to Instructions.
Q. Did the Inspector always receive personal notice of your attitude in those questions?
A. No, only if I had officially or expressly noted that on the opinion or if the Chief of Staff or the section chief considered the matter important enough to submit it to the Inspector himself. Whether that was done I did not learn in individual cases or I learned it only if there were inquiries or the Inspector called me for an oral report.
Q. Mr. President, in this connection I offer Rose Document No. 6 which is Rose Exhibit No. 6, the affidavit of Professor Dr. Walter Schnell, dated the 1st of March, 1947. This can be found in Rose Document Book No. 1 on pages 15 to 19. I should like to read a part of this affidavit. I am starting to quote from the third paragraph of page 15 of this document book.
''Concerning the position of the "consultants" of the Luftwaffe, I have personal knowledge since I myself was a consulting hygienist in an air fleet, without, however, being able to quote verbally the service regulations for consultants, which incidentally, were also available in print. The consultants were, in the Medical Inspectorate as well as in the various air fleets, purely scientific experts who bad no powers of command or operational powers whatsoever.
"As far as I know, the official position of the consultants in the Medical Inspectorate was exactly the same. They were not, say, superiors of the consultants of the various air wings; in fact, they had not even any direct contact with them. If any important sanitary events in an air fleet had to be reported, the consulting hygienist made his report to the wing physician who, in turn, passed the report on to the Medical Inspectorate. Whether the Chief of the medical service -- or his chief of staff decided to include the consulting hygionist of the medical Inspectorate in the ensuing discussions or not, was left to his own judgment. When the consulting hygionist was included in the discussions, his opinion was by no means decisive but it merely represented an export opinion before the Medical inspectorate.
"My experience-reports and special reports for the Medical Inspector to which had to be presented at fixed periods, had to be routed via the wing physician and were passed on to the Chief of the Medical Service, and not to the consulting hygienist of the Medical Inspectorate.
"On one occasion when I wanted to carry out largescale measures to combat malaria from aeroplanes in a territory particularly subject to malaria, I first contacted Professor Rose directly by telephone to win his assistance for the work planned by me. I did that although I know the above described division of functions within the medical inspectorate, and it was immediately obvious that even though Professor Rose agreed with me on the merits of the matter, he could not help me, nor did he know anything about my reports about the hygienic case in question.
He referred me to the official channels via the Air Wing physician and the Medical Inspectorate. This can be explained by the fact that there was a sharp division between the administrative field and the field of the scientific consultants,within the medical inspector to.
"Thus, there was within the inspectorate proper, also a hygienics expert who, as the execution agent of the chief of staff or of the department head, dealt with the day by day flow of hygienic matters, whereas the consulting hygienist only was called upon to deal with special scientific assignments, expert opinions, etc. There were no official channels between the consulting hygienist of the Medical Inspectorate and the consulting hygienist of the Air wing.
"The consulting hygienist of the Medical Inspectorate, Professor Rose, and after 1944 also Chief Physician Dr. Muhlert -- ware in no way my superiors, and I was not their subordinate, although both hold higher rank than I. They had no right to direct or supervise me in any way. The consultant of the Air wing was subordinated solely to its Air wing physician.
"On official visits to Berlin I always reported personally to, and had discussions with, the chief of the Medical Service, the department heads and the subdepartment heads, without the consulting hygienists of the Inspectorate, Professor Rose or Dr. Muhlert, taking part. If possible, however, I visited Professor Rose also in order to exchange views with him. It was not my duty to report to him. I regarded the visits as a matter of professional courtesy."
Mr. President, I shall revert, at a later period, to the further contents of this affidavit. However, at the same time I should like to offer the next document in the document book of Rose which is Rose No. 7 which will become Rose Exhibit No. 7. This is an affidavit of Dr. Ferdinand Muhlert who was repeatedly mentioned in the affidavit which I have just read. This affidavit bears the date of February, 1947. You can find it on pages 20 to 23 of my document book 1. The date is the 25th of February , 1947. Considering the importance of this matter I should also like be read this affidavit in part.
MR. HARDY: May it please Your Honor, this question as to the duties and functions of a consulting physician in either the Wehrmacht or the Luftwaffe, has been most elaborately explained to the Tribunal by Professor Hand loser and Professor Schroeder, and it seems to me that it is unnecessary for any burdening of the record with reading the fact that a consulting physician did not have the authority to issue orders as such, this his position was merely one of suggestion, etc. That is the whole point of taking up the time here now with discussion of consulting physicians and I feel certain that the Tribunal is well aware of the position of the consulting physician. Therefore I object to any further details concerning the capacity of a consulting physician.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has had no opportunity to read the affidavit. If counsel for the prosecution agrees with these statements taken by Defendant Rose as the facts stated in this affidavit, there would be no use in reading it.
MR. HARDY: The Prosecution has no objection to the affidavit, as such, Your Honor.
JUDGE SEBRING: Do you agree, Mr. Hardy, that the position taken by this defendant and prior defendants in regard to the scope and authority of consultants is as maintained by them?
MR. HARDY: No, Your Honor, the Prosecution does not agree. However, the Prosecution submits that these details have been fully explained to the Tribunal at great length and, as a matter of fact, Dr. Handloser submitted nearly a treatise explaining the position of consulting physicians.
JUDGE SEBRING: Which you say you do not agree with?
MR. HARDY: We do not whole-heartedly agree, no, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The objection will be overruled. Counsel may read such portions of tho affidavit as he deems particularly relevant with due regard to the matter of time.
DR. FRITZ: Mr. President, may I make one fundamental remark regarding this problem, because we shall, in the future, often revert to this matter of a consultant. He is not quite in agreement with the statements made by a number of the co-defendants or witnesses and especially since he is also responsible with Haagen in Haagen's actions, who was also a consulting physician with the Luftwaffe, he has to speak about these matters.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal understand that, Counsel. That is the reason for the overruling of the objection made by Prosecution. Counsel may proceed and read such portions of this affidavit as he deems important to his defense.
BY DR. FRITZ:
I shall at first quote from Page 1 of that document, reading the eighth sentence of Paragraph 2:
"From the outbreak of war until 1944 I was consulting hygienist with the Air Fleet Physician of Air Fleet No. 2. In 1941 I became consulting hygienist with the Chief of the Luftwaffe Medical Services in addition to Professor Rose and remained in this position until the end of tho war."
I shall now read from Page 2 of that document, starting from tho third paragraph:
"Professor Rose was never my superior, neither in the medical service nor with the troops. I was therefore not his subordinate.
As consulting hygienist of Air Fleet No. 2 I was subordinate to the Air Fleet Physician.
his subordinate. As consulting hygienist of Air Fleet No. 2 I was subordinate to the Air Fleet Physician. Neither did Professor Rose have any supervisory power over my activity with the Luftwaffe.
"When I became consulting hygienist with the Chief of the Luftwaffe Medical Services, I also had no supervisory powers over other consultants, and was not their superior. There was no Luftwaffe service regulation which obliged or entitled the consulting physicians of the Medical Inspectorate to supervise their colleagues amongst the Air Fleet physicians. The consulting physicians of the Medical Inspectorate were entitled to report personally to the Chief of the Luftwaffe Medical Services. They had to give their expert opinions on questions about which they were consulted. They had no power to issue orders and no right to give directives; they were also not entitled to ask for reports. They could not carry out any inspections without a special order, because such inspections would necessarily encroach on the sphere of command of an Air Fleet physician, who had his own consulting physicians.
"The military rank bestowed on the consulting physicians was to increase their authority in scientific medical matters in contrast to army doctors and other offices. For this reason, special regulations existed for the promotion of consulting physicians.
"My own reports, which I had to make as consulting hygienist of Air Fleet 2, went through the Air Fleet Physician, even if they were designed for the Inspector of the Medical Services. In the Luftwaffe no reports were made to the consulting physicians with the Chief of the Medical Services.