This shows the purpose of our working plan.
Q Witness, was the purpose of this publication to announce a drug for sterilization, perhaps for use in the eugenic courts?
A No, this was not the purpose of the paper. As I have already said, the examination of the question of what influence caladium had on the function of the glands with internal secretion. If the paper had had such a purpose, then we would have had to multiply the caladium plants. We never did that. We would also have had to isolate the effective agent in the plant and determine the chemical formula. We did not do that. Without this procedure the question would have been quite senseless.
Q Witness, then you realized that this caladium did not represent a drug that could be used for the sterilization of human beings?
A Yes, of course.
Q How could that be seen from your paper, that this was not a drug for sterilizing human beings?
A There are many points in the paper where one can see that very clearly.
Q Witness, please do not quote. Since you wrote the paper yourselff, just tell us about those reasons.
A On page 69 I said expressly that this was no prospect of procedure for human beings. I also said that the experiments were in part positive and in par? negative, also on page 69; that the time until the drug took effect was subject to extreme variation; thay in some cases after l40 to 160 days there was no effect; that large amounts of the extract were needed in comparison to the body weight of the animal; than the treatment took 77 to 218 days? that in female animals the sterility produced, we assumed to be only temporary; that it was unknown how long sterility would continue after treatment was discontinued; that the changes in the hypophysis were not the same as those produced by castration; that the method of action of the plant in the body was unknown; that we had not thought of isolating the effective agent and producing it artificially.
I am sure there are other points, but I think that will be enough.
Q Witness, do you believe that an average doctor, after reading your paper, would be convinced that there was no possibility of using caladium for sterilization?
A I should like to say that if he had looked at the paper and read through the passages which I have just quoted, he would have had to realize that.
Q Witness, you published this paper and Dr. Madaus had published an article in tho "Unschau". Did you concern yourself with tho grooving of caladium or was* there any special reason for the question of caladiun being taken up in your institute?
A In 1936-37 we carried out tests on caladium with plants which happened to be available among our medicinal plants, and in 1939-40 we did the same. There was never any cultivation on any large scale. We often had difficulties in carrying out the experiments because there happened to be no plant material available. Then in 1942 I was suddenly told by a General Pohl that I was to come to Berlin for a conference.
Q What kind of a general was that?
A From the SS.
Q And what happened in Berlin?
A The conferences in Berlin, "Unter den Eichen" were in a big building, apparently Pohl's office. The guard received me, saying that the General had been waiting for twenty minutes. I was taken up to him and he said that he was not pleased that I had written a paper on caladium; that it was undesirable for Germany's position abroad or some such thing. I can't repeat his exact words. And therefore he asked me in the future to refrain from making such publications, but he asked that the tests be continued and that we tell the SS or rather him, about the results. We were to continue the tests on a broad basis, wore to cultivate caladium, were to try to grow the caladium from seed, and he had a few other wishes, but I can't remember them at the moment.
Q Witness, did you realize during this discussion what Pohl wanted caladium for?
A No, that was not entirely clear to me, but the way in which Pohl opened this discussion and the way in which he pointed out the significance of these investigations immediately disturbed me and made me suspicious.
Q If I understand you correctly you said before that on the basis of your work there was no possibility of sterilizing human beings with caladium. Now, since you were suspicious, as you just said, didn't you toll Pohl that nothing could be done with caladium?
A. I tried very hard to convince Pohl that this work would take very long, that it would be very difficult, that it would take many years before there would be any progress. I pointed out that this question interested us from the purely scientific point of view with respect to the influence on the function of the inner organs and the function of the glands with inner secretion, and that after we had cleared up this question we had stopped our investigation in 1940 and that we had no intention of resuming this work and no intention of publishing such work again.
Q. Witness, did you have the impression that Pohl did not have a very high opinion of caladium but was following an order from above?
A. Yes, I am sure he had such an impression but I don't believe that I could give any exact reason for it. I had the impression first that Pohl had a high opinion of the significance of the caladium experiments in the beginning but then I told him all the difficulties, the extremely long duration of the experiments - one was 184 days, another was 357 days. I pointed out all these difficulties to him and I told him that there was no caladium available, or at least that there were only very small amounts, that this plant grows in America, that it is very difficult to grow, and that it can be grown in Germany only in hot houses. And then he asked me, "Can't that be grown from seed?" and I said that growing tropical plants from seed in Germany was often very difficult because insects which exist in the tropics and which plants are adapted to do not exist here and, therefore, it would be necessary to pollenize such plants artificially, and that this had succeeded in many cases, but how it was for caladium I didn't know because I did not carry out such experiments myself but I had heard how our botanists dealt with such questions on principle. I pointed out the great difficulties perhaps in my own interest; I even exaggerated them a bit.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, the Tribunal will now be in recess.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats. The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q: Witness, you told the Tribunal before the recess, that you spoke with Pohl in Berlin. Did you see him again?
A: Yes, twice. Once in 1942 - I don't know the precise date but I do know that there were peaches so it must have been in the autumn. I was in the biological institute at that time and all of a sudden was told that high SS generals or officers were in our plantation. This garden was 3 kilometers from the institute. I know that I was surprised because in the matter of caladium I had undertaken nothing; besides, I was afraid that I might be denounced because of the 16 anti-fascistic collaborators, who were in part political prisoners, whom I employed in the institute. I immediately went to the plantation and found Pohl with a large staff with him who had come in 2 large automobiles. He immediately introduced me to a doctor named Lolling and told me that in the future Lolling would supervise these experiments and that I should report to Lolling on the results of the experiments. In addition, he specifically required -- of, I forgot to say before, that at the conclusion of the conference in Berlin, Pohl gave me no precise orders or assignment -- but now he gave me the specific order that caladium experimentation was to be carried on on a broad basis. Then we were to examine the question whether native plants contained effective substances of the same sort as caladium.
Q: Witness, when Pohl ordered you to produce caladium, at what stage were your experiments at that time?
A: At that time there were no experiments at all. The whole matter had come to nothing in 1940; there had been nothing done to follow it up. That was toward the end of 1940. At any rate, in 1940, at the time of the publication of this paper, no experiments were under way.
Q: Did you then unertake further experimentation after Pohl gave you this order, and until when did you do so?
A: Yes, I did. At first we experimented on Drosophila-melogonasta, which is a fly. The results of these experiments were completely negative. The records of the experiments are probably available. Then we experimented on mice. After a few weeks this experiment was broken off, having had no positive results because all the animals died. We put in the record that they died because of an epidemic among themselves. Then there were what we called in our records Sterilization Experiment No. 4. It was carried out on 46 rats in toto but they were strictly subdivided so that, if I remember correctly, every single plant or variety of caladium was given to, I think, 5 rats.
This experiment lasted 184 days and I believe that in May 1943 we reported on this, then there was the last experiment, Experiment No. 5 with perhaps 60 animals altogether. I can't give you the number precisely because I don't have my documentation any more. This experiment lasted 357 days. That was in the middle of 1944 and then I believe after that no one was interested in any more experiments of this wort.
Q: Witness, I shall now put to you a report on the experimental series No. 5 on rats along with the charts and I ask you to tell the Tribunal whether these are the results of your last experiment?
A: Yes, these are the reports on the last experiment.
DR. HOFFMANN: Mr. President, I put this record of the last experiment which the witness has just identified in evidence as Exhibits 22 and 23. They are in the Pokorny Document Book Nos. 27 and 28, the report and the tables respectively.
Q: Then it can be clearly seen, witness, that your last experiments were without result and were broken off having had no results?
A: Yes, that is so. However, I must explain in this connection that since 1940 we had not thought of these experiments as scientifically significant. If we were expecting any sort of results from them in the way they were carried out these experiments were of such a nature that you can derive nothing of scientific value from them today. The reason for that is that we assumed that the SS or Pohl was pursuing intentions which we did not agree with. For that reason the experiments were planned and carried out in the way I have just described, namely, in such a way as to lead to no reliable scientific results.
Q: Witness, even if you assume that the experiments were undertaken seriously do you believe on the basis of your knowledge particularly in the field of caladium that in the calculable future anything would have come of them?
A: No, there is no reason for believing that there would. That is to say, nothing would indicate that which would be anything like scientific proof. We only had experiences with animals and the results with the animals could not be transferred to human beings.
Q: Do you believe this was enough assurance for an average doctor so that he could believe that no experiments of any importance could be carried on with caladium?
A: If the doctor reflected on the fact that it was necessary to treat animals from 70 to 120 days and that they were still uncertain elements then from this fact alone you can readily see that the doctor would not then feel that he could carry out experiments on human beings. The human beings would have to be segregated, locked up; they would have to be guarded all the time because as soon as the person noticed that this drug that he was talking didn't agree with him he could bring about artificial vomiting and thus frustrate the experiment. The drugs had to be taken in amounts from 40 to 60 kilograms for every human person in order to have the same results or corresponding results to the results from the animal experiments. That is a very large amount. This factor also would have persuaded ary normal doctor. There are also other indication in the paper to the effect that this work was at a stage that permitted no discussion so far as to its applicability to human beings. In the paper on page 69 I specifically mentioned that, precisely in order to prevent some imaginative doctors hitting on the crazy notion of pursuing the matter in that direction.
Q: Doctor, did you have in Dresden the necessary number of hot houses to grow the necessary amounts of caladium?
A: At first we had no hot house for caladium; whether it was grown in the tropical houses so to speak on the side, then Pohl's order came to produce greater aaounts of caladium and he made available a large hot house to us which I, however, refused on the basis, saying there was no purpose to that because we didn't have the plants. Then we were given permission to attach a hot house that already existed to a heating plant that already existed. This was 196 cubic meters and perhaps 270 plants could have grown in it.
Q: Was caladiua extract ever produced for the sterilization of human beings?
A: No, and I am convinced that not even one gram was produced this without my knowledge because the two people entrusteu with producing this contract, Mr. Bisker, anti-fascist, well known, and Mr. Beiger was the other, a laboratory assistant of his, - he had been arrested for political reasons a few yea.rs previous to that and both hatea che third Reich vehemently. Now, that these two men might have given anything to the SS, that I consider quite out of the question.
Q: Witness, yesterday the prosecution put in an affidavit, an affidavit by Karl Wilhelm Friedrich Teauboeck. Would you please make a statement regarding this affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will shew that the witness is now examining Prosecution Identification No. 528.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, do you expect to examine the witness, Dr. Friederich Jung, in connection with this same affidavit? I suggest that you show the witness in advance the affidavit before he takes the stand, thereby saving the time of reading it when he takes the stand.
BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q: I just want to ask you very briefly about this affidavit. First, do you know a man by the name of Tauboeck?
A: I never heard that name.
Q: Do you know a man named Weiss?
A: I know lots of people name Weiss, but the man designated here as Dr. Weiss, who worked for me, I cannot remember him for certain. I do seem to remember that after Pohl's visit in our garden and I believe after Lolling's visit to the institute, there was still another commission there and it is possible that Dr. Weiss was a member of this commission, but, I cannot remember him. In 1938 I had more than 8,000 doctors in the institute and it is impossible for me to know the names of all the visitors.
Q: Would you call a person who studied primarily botany a specialist in this field?
A: He might be an expert in the field of botany, but in the field of medicine, I should be very dubious whether he is a specialist, because regarding histological preparation and their make-up he makes statements here and he asserts that he practically had worked with histology in Vienna, but although I have great histological experience in the field of animal experimentation, in all important questions I always consulted a specialist pathologist, that is a man who concerned himself 20 years or more with histology. I always chose one who also specialized in this specific field and he had specialized in the field of the glands with inner-secretion. For instance, Professor Profeierte, who was in the question of the influence of Caladium on the structure, that is to say the structure form of the tissues.
All of these are very difficult matters to investigate. It is very difficult to diagnose changes in such organs precisely. Therefore, I do not think it is permissable that a non doctor who in addition to biological studies, may have studied later histology, be called a specialist in this field.
Q: Do you happen to know where Dr. Madaus had his experience in the matter of the use of Caladium?
A: Yes, I do know that. He told me that personally in 1935 or 1936 before we began our first Caladium experiments. He was in North America and heard there in conversations that natives of South America used the Caladium plant in order to sterilize their enemies. They tried to feed it to them secretly or perhaps they put it on arrowheads and shot their enemies with them. These, of course, were tales of folk lore more or less and whether these tales were credible that you cannot say. Dr. Madaus himself could not tell. Because we were interested in vegetable medicines, we of course heard innumerable such reports on the magical effects of this plant or that. In numerous cases we investigated such tales through experimentation and tried to find out exactly what their source was and if there was any truth in them at all. In such investigations, sometimes you do find the little nugget of gold, that is tile truth in the matter, but usually such tales turn out to be unfounded. You cannot take such tales of mythology in general and apply them in the world of reality.
Q: Witness, on page 5 of this affidavit, this man writes of his experience, that he alleges he has had; can you tell by the way he expresses himself here whether he really had such experiences, that is the necessary experience?
A: When he says here "in one experiment" I cannot characterize that myself as an experiment. It is not customary in science to accept on single experiment as proof or as substantiation of any theory.
Of course, I cannot tell how he intended this expression "one experiment" to be construed, that you would have to ask him. But, if there was really only one experiment without any subsequent or checking experiment, such a single experiment is not even worthy of discussion.
Q: Mr. President, no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any defense counsel have any questions to propound to this witness? There being none, the prosecution may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Dr. Koch, it is my understanding that you testified upon reading the article published in the publication, "Experimental Medicine" written by Madaus and yourself, that a person, that is a physician, could ascertain that Caladium Seguinum could not be effectively applied to human beings?
A: Yes.
Q: On page 35 of the document book, which is page 2 of the report, your report there, do you have the report before you, the publication?
A: No, I don't.
Q: You have the publication before you that was written by yourself and Madaus?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: On page 2 of that report, the publication, the first paragraph reads as follows: "The artificial creation of sterility, particularly the temporary elimination of the functions of the female genital organs in case of tuberculosis or other serious damages, is a question which for understandable reasons is discussed frequently and which has resulted in extensive animal experiments; the results obtained in the course of this research have been most instructive from the point of view of science, but have not yet been applied, in practise to human beings."
Now, can it not be construed from reading that paragraph that it is possible that this research Caladium Seguinum shows to you that application upon human beings may also bear some results other than what you have stated here under direct examination?
A: Funadamentally it should be said that new investigations might of course produce new results, that is a question that no person can answer. It is impossible to way here. This introduction to my paper refers to the problem altogether in general before I started discussing Calladium specifically and on page 69, page 2, I specifically emphasize the fact that one should not simply expect that such a product can be applied to human beings. I am emphasizing that my statement applied only to animals.
Q: Where is that, kindly point that out to us, where you say that this cannot be applied to human beings, kindly point that out.
A: Page 69, paragraph 2.
Q: Which page is that of the report?
A: Page 2.
Q: Would you read that, please and read it slowly so that the interpreters can follow you.
THE INTERPRETOR: Mr. Hardy, it is page 36a.
THE WITNESS: "If we now report in the following a third possibility of artificial, that is to say sterilization by medication, this docs not mean a frivelous promise of a similar method for human beings."
BY MR. HARDY:
Q That does not exclude the possibility though, does it doctor?
A It does not exclude the possibility, of course, but a possibility is after all an open question.
Q Yet in this same report on page 4 of the original which is page 37 of the English, you impress upon the reader that the effect of caladium, this is the second paragraph on page 37, of the English, beginning in the middle of the page, you impress upon the reader there the following language:
"The effect of caladium on the sexual organs has been known to the natives there for a long time; they administer this plant in large quantities to their enemies in order to bring about impotence."
Now the whole purpose of this publication is to emphasize the efficacy of caladium segunium and you refer here to a drug which was used in South America by natives in order to keep out their enemies, and you are now showing the results in your animal experiments, and you state in conclusion on page 47, starting on page 46-A, that:
"Caladium segunium to which popular experience attributes a sterilizing effect, shows in animal experiments the following effect:"
And you also show the effect it has on animals. Now from reading this you say it is impossible for a person to determine that this would be effective on human beings?
A This statement that caladium ever was used by natives is put down here as an explanation or let us say as a piece of information, explaining what our incentive was, what induced us to begin these experiments at all. The other information refers to results from animal experimentation, and previously I had numerous examples which showed clearly and unequivocally that this work was at a stage or that this paper describes a stage in research which must be regarded as an initial stage of experimentation, a pre-requisite for subsequent experimentation, and a prerequisite for a possible subsequent use on human beings, but I don't say that here and whether it is really going to be the case no one in the world could say unless he is a person of unusual imagination.
Q Then you say that if it is possible that more elaborate experimentation had been performed on animals, then it may be that experimentation performed on humans would show that caladiun segunium would be effective, is that right?
A That is an open question. There is no one in the world who can answer that question yes or no. If you want to ask me whether the possibility is based on my knowledge; if you want to ask me what results will probably occur from further experimentation then I will tell you this: It will for certain take many years before this question can be answered in the affirmative or negative, for example, the caladiun question, and that I can say on the basis of my own study, is much more difficult to answer than the penicillin question.
Q Well, why couldn't you immediately experiment on human beings to determine this? Would that be unethical unless you had most extensively conducted experiments on animals?
A I don't believe that any one would offer himself voluntarily for an experiment of this sort.
Q Well, you are aware, of course, that human beings were less expensive to the SS than animals, weren't you?
A I beg your pardon.
Q You were aware of the fact that the SS could have obtained human beings for experiments more readily than they could have obtained animals?
A The sterilization quation as applied to human beings was never discussed by me with the SS. The extraordinary importance of the question was simply pointed out but it was not said that experiments were to be carried out on human beings.
Q Well, now let's go back
A But if you ask me whether I consider it ethical to carry out experiments on human beings, such experiments, then I must say I do not consider it ethical.
Q Let us go back to this report which you wrote. Do you consider this report for publication written by you and Madaususen to be a scientific publication?
A Yes.
Q Dr. Pokorny says that the report is unsound, has no scientific value?
A What reasons did he give for the statement?
Q Well, Pokorny said he knew this report was unsound because the authors arrived at the conclusion that regarding animals that the drug was effective on the male animals and was not effective on female animals and in that case he concluded it was an unsound theory, that if it was effective on one it should be effective on the other, and he felt the report had no scientific foundation whatsoever.
DR. HOFFMAN: Mr. President, I object to this question, the scientific part, and Dr. Pokorny's scientific reasons, I did not go into that yesterday because with the permission of the Tribunal I want to put an affidavit in on this question. Therefore, if the individual isolated statements of Dr. Pokorny here are to be torn from their context because he was not given an opportunity to state his whole view in this matter, then that is a disadvantage to him. It is impossible now to evaluate what he wanted to say and this question must be left until the affidavit is put in.
MR. HARDY: I submit that the defendant Pokorny in cross examination stated to me as I have just put the question to the witness and I am asking the witness whether he feels his report was scientifically sound in view of the testimony of the defendant Pokorny. In going into the specific details of the experiment just generally the defendant Pokorny stated to the Tribunal that he considered the report unsound and unscientific in as much as they found that the drug was effective on males and not effective on females and hence he couldn't understand where there would be any value to it.
DR. HOFFMAN: Mr. President, we feel that this should not be asked in the cross examination as this was all on the presupposition that he would later be able to make his entire statement in the affidavit, and the questions would not be propounded to his individual answers in the cross examination and put to the witness here and now on cross examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel for the defendant Pokorny is correct, defense counsel may file a supplemental affidavit, but counsel may now ask the witness if in his opinion the fact that it might be stated that the drug would be effective on males and not on females would make any difference in his scientific opinion on the matter.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q What is your opinion, Dr. Koch?
A That is of no importance. There are drugs that are five times as effective in males as in females. I myself have carried out experiments with the neurotoxic substance. These possibilities do exist but these are specialized scientific matters and the average doctor would not be inclined to know about this or concern himself wich such questions. There is a difference in the resistance on the part of the male or female organism and in determining this question I have given specific consideration to this and published a paper on it.
Q Well, now when you were using this caladium segunium or the drug derived therefrom in the course of your experiments, how did you administer it to the animals, orally?
A Not in the form of a drug but in the form of a fresh vegetable extract.
Q Well, could you introduce it to the animal or to the subject other than orally, intravenously, for instance?
A I do not think it has been examined intravenously - it has been given sub-cutaneously and through a stomach channel, into the stomach.
Q Well, now when Oswald Pohl came to your institute and ordered you to perform these experiments did you attempt to delay the experiments and fake the results?
A I must make a correction. Pohl was not at the institute. He went to our botanical gardens which is three kilometers away. As to the other part of the question I must say this: We did not carry through these experiments with the greatest possible energy, first of all we delayed the experiments; then secondly, we started off in a false direction, and thirdly, as adepartmental head Pisker told me later we made various sins of omission and other mistakes and we made such mistakes intentionally, in order intentionally to sabotage these experiments. It was our firm intention that nothing positive should ever come of these experiments.
Q: Then you were of the opinion that something positive could come of the experiments. Therefore you purposely attempted to delay and fake the results so that no positive results could be obtained?
A: That is not an absolutely necessary deduction, because, as I said, the caladium question is an open one and so long as we do not have clear results you cannot say that treatment of human beings is possible with it.
Q: And by the same token you cannot say that it is impossible?
A: No, no person alive could say that, that it is impossible. But you can say that at the time -- right now -- it is impossible, and it is uncertain whether it ever will be possible. To state this very clearly the question is just as open as if someone said "Are we going to be able to telephone to inhabitants of Mars next month?" Then I can say "I don't know; that is an open question." And the caladium question is exactly of the same sort. Nevertheless, and this is what you seemed so surprised about in your question, I didn't carry out the experiments I was ordered to carry out just precisely for this reason, because I don't know, because no one can know whether contrary to expectations perhaps these experiments might not have some positive results. I don't know and no one can know because it hasn't been done yet.
Q: Well, did you ever give any of this caladium to the SS?
A: No, never.
Q: Did you ever give any to I.G. Farben?
A: No. That is, I cannot recall ever having given any to the I.G. but I can say with apodictic certainty that I never gave one gram of this caladium extract to anybody.
Q: You don't know whether I.G. Farben had any?
A: I don't know.
Q: What were you doing in Dachau?
A: We looked at the botanical gardens there on Pohl's invitation, when in 1942 he suddenly turned up in our botanical gardens and looked at our plants without my knowledge.
Then at that time he told us, "Please don't think that we are spying on you scientifically or otherwise. So that you may be sure that we have different purposes with our botanical gardens in Dachau I invite you to pay a return visit." We did pay this visit because otherwise we had to be afraid that we were making Pohl suspicious of our experiments.
Q: You didn't go down there for the purpose of starting a growth of caladium sequinum in his hothouses in Dachau, did you?
A: No. So far as I know, no plant of ours was sent anywhere for such purposes.
Q: Were you inside the concentration camp when you want to Dachau?
A: No, I was in the botanical gardens and they were outside the camp proper, because we could see from there a high wall, and I assume that behind this high wall the concentration camp lay.
Q: Did you ever go to Dachau again after that first visit?
A: No, never.
Q: Was Pohl with you on that visit?
A: He arranged for the visit. He met us for perhaps two minutes, turned us over to another officer, and this man conducted us through the gardens. A conversation of a scientific nature with Pohl did not take place so far as I know. We saw him for the briefest sort of time.
Q: Did you ever meet Dr. Schumann?
A: Dr. Schumann from England?
Q: No, no, an SS physician, Schumann.
A: I cannot remember that name.
Q: Didn't he ever visit you at your institute?
A: I can't tell you. I cannot remember the name. I don't know.