Q Very well. Well, you were saying that Mr. Haagen was vaccinating the first group against typhus. Can you tell us exactly what vaccine he used?
A No.
Q How about the second group?
A The second group was merely strengthened with food and then worked upon anew.
Q The first group was vaccinated, and the second group was not. These were the stronger people.
A The stronger people were used for the second group.
Q And now you are saying that after some time everybody started to work again. Well, what was the length of time between these two experiments?
A Only a few days.
Q Now, witness, it is important to know what the second work of Haagen constituted. The prosecution asked you this morning if Haagen injected into these inmates artificial infectious typhus vaccine, and you said yes. Witness, what do you understand by artificial infectious typhus vaccine?
MR. HARDY: The prosecution did not say vaccine.
BY DR. TIPP:
Q Pardon me, what I just mentioned was typhus medium, artificial infectious typhus medium, what do you understand that to mean?
A I can't judge that.
Q How do you know that it was artificial infectious typhus?
A Well, we heard that -
Q One minute, witness. I don't want to hear any conclusions from you. The Tribunal wants to knew what you really know from your knowledge, and now you say that you cannot really judge whether it was really artificial infectious typhus, that is, from what you just -
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, the defense put a question to the witness and the witness proceeded to answer it, and he interrupted him. I request that the witness be permitted to answer that question.
THE TRIBUNAL: The witness may answer the question. The interpreter will read the question.
BY DR. TIPP:
Q I am asking, since you cannot judge it, how do you know that Hr. Haagen was using Artificial infectious typhus?
A The Professor spoke to the inmate physician in this department and made no secret of it. He told us about his work, and that was when we were all present.
Q Well, what did he tell you about his work?
A Well, I can't repeat that to you exactly.
Q Well, in that case how can you maintain that he used artificial infectious typhus if you cannot judge that from your own knowledge and if you can no longer tell us what Mr. Haagen has told the inmate physician?
A Well, as far as I can judge it, if one receives typhus normally, one gets it through lice or unclean conditions, but these people were entirely clean. Therefore, they must have bean infected with an artificial medium. Even if you are not a physician you can judge that.
Q Well, witness, I am repeating that you are merely giving us a conclusion. But that that does not constitute a knowledge. Finally, let me establish that you really do not know whether Haagen actually worked with infectious typhus -
MR. HARDY: May I suggest that defense counsel interrogate the witness, not argue with him?
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel is proceeding in order. You may proceed, excepting a little more slowly.
BY DR. TIPP:
Q Very well, witness. Now, another question. What was the success of the introduction of the vaccine, or this artificial infectious typhus; will you please talk a little slower?
A It occurred just as in the case of normal typhus. There was high fever, collapse, it is ordinary in the case of typhus, one saw all the normal symptoms of a typhus patient. The one group which received vaccinations did not show as severe symptoms as the other group, which did not receive these vaccinations. In other words, they did not experience such high fevers except in the case of a few individuals. I know that from my own knowledge because I measured the fever myself.
Q In that case you are saying, witness, the patient had high fever?
A Yes.
Q I did not quite understand your further statement. What do you mean by "collapse", or "kollapieren"?
A Collapse, I think, means if the curve goes way up and then suddenly drops down, as far as I can judge that as a nurse.
Q In other words, you are saying that the inmates had high fever, and that fever dropped abruptly. What other symptoms did you notice in the case of these inmates, witness?
A I can't tell you any other symptoms.
Q In other words, the inmates had high fever. Is high fever necessarily a sign of typhus, witness?
A No, certainly not. But Professor Haagen said publicly that these were typhus experiments.
Q Unfortunately, I must once more establish, witness, that Mr. Haagen told you that these were typhus experiments. May I perhaps put to you that he may have spoken of typhus vaccine experiments?
A That I cannot say, I really don't know.
Q In any case, witness, you can't tell us with certainty from your own knowledge that these inmates contacted typhus?
A No.
Q I think that this answers my questions.
A But I must tell you one thing, the blood tests taken from these inmates were sent to Strassbourg together with tests of all the normal typhus cases.
Q I beg your pardon, witness, what do you mean by normal typhus cases?
A I mean those cases which were already in the camp, that is, those who were sent to the camp suffering with typhus; but the typhus cases came from Auschwitz.
Q You were saying that the blood tests were sent to Strassbourg. Now, witness, you are not a physician. At any rate, you were working long enough at a so-called experimental station, may I perhaps ask you did you at any time hear of the so-called Weil-Felix reaction?
A Yes.
Q Do you know what is meant by that?
A Yes, in my opinion this is the blood test according to WeilFelix. This is a blood examination which was invented by Weil-Felix.
Q. I think we understand each other, witness. You are saying that the Weil-Felix reaction is called after the two men who used this test for the first time by the name of Weil and Felix. What does one establish by this Weil-Felix reaction, do you know that?
A The state of the blood. I cannot really judge that.
Q Now, witness, if I were to tell you know that one establishes, by using the Weil-Felix reactions what resistance there is to be found in the blood, would that be something new to you?
A Yes, I think so, but I forgot it again.
Q At any rate, you do know that these people who were treated by Dr. Haagen received high fever, blood tests were taken from their bodies, and you also know that these blood tests were sent to Strassbourg for examination together with blood tests of the normal typhus cases?
A Yes. But they may have also been sent to other places.
Q Very well. I don't want to argue with you about that subject.
Witness, you were a nurse at this station, and you asserted you nursed these inmates yourself, is that true?
A Yes.
Q When did these feverish symptoms occur?
A Well, I really can't tell you that exactly. I do not know the exact course of the illness.
Q Now, witness, if you are so well informed about these matters, you must be in a position to tell the Tribunal approximately when these symptoms occurred after two days, three days, fourteen days?
A Well, I think they occurred after 10 or 12 days.
Q And when, witness, did the individual people die? I mean, the persons of whom you were speaking this morning and this afternoon.
A You mean as cf what date they died? I think that it started approximately at the end of December 1943.
Q Let me clarify my question. I am now speaking of the death cases as they arose from this experimental group?
A Yes, I understand you.
Q As you were saying this experimental group was started at the end of November or the beginning of December, and when did the first death cases occur?
A I think that these occurred towards the middle of December.
Q Now, witness, can you tell us with certainty what the cause of the death was?
A No, I cannot tell you.
Q When did the other death cases occur?
A During the subsequent periods. Two days later there was a one, a few days later there was another one, and so on.
Q We have the death book before us, witness, and I shall come back to that later; but couldn't you ascertain by using the death book exactly when these death cases occurred? May I perhaps help you? You were speaking about the 12th line of page 38.
A I beg your pardon, I make a mistake. I think I got my dates mixed up. I think I made a mistake in giving you some of the dates. If I correct myself, the experiments started approximately at the middle of November. Many years have passed since, and this is my only help. The group of these 18 people was already entered in November.
Q Now, witness, I must put something to you. At first, you said that the experiments started at the end of November. Now, you say, looking at the book, that there were already death cases in November, and in order to connect these death cases with the experiments you are now saying they actually started in the beginning of November. Isn't this error due to the fact that you want to connect those death cases with what you were telling us before?
A No.
Q Now, witness, how do you know that this group of 18 gypsies which is entered here are actually persons who belonged to Haagen's group?
A These people were not entered with their names and their numbers. I mean, the camp administration book, the camp registry book, whore every inmate was entered with name and number.
Q How do you know that?
A Well, I do know it. Every inmate who comes to the Natzweiler concentration camp had to pass through the hospital.
Q How do you know that just this gypsy group was not entered there?
A because I was present when they arrived. They arrived on a Sunday.
Q When this experimental group came to the hospital you, yourself, were present, witness?
A Yes.
Q And on this occasion you found out that these person were not entered?
A Certainly, I am quite sure of that.
Q Why was that, witness?
A I can't tell you.
Q Was that ordered specifically -- was it forbidden specifically that these people be entered?
A I really can't tell you.
Q Weren't these names ascertained at the experiment station?
A Oh yes, I knew that one was called Joseph and one had another name, but of course I can't tell you that with certainty now.
Q Witness, form the fact that these inmates were not registered in the camp at their arrival, and from the fact that here in the book we find a group of 18 gypsies, without names, you conclude that we are here concerned with the people coming from that group -- but that is merely a conclusion on your part?
A No, that is a fact. These people were not entered.
Q Now witness, you are saying that is a fact but in that connection I must ask you the following: Who exactly made the entries into the death book?
A The clerks -- the inmate clerks.
Q Not yourself?
A No.
Q Well, in the case you really cannot tell us why this clerk left the names out?
A Well, the clerk did not know their names.
Q Witness, when this group arrived in the camp you were accidentally present?
A That was not an accident. That was quite normal.
Q Were you always there?
A Yes, I was always there when they arrived.
Q In that case, do you mean to say that in the case of every new influx of people into the group, you were present?
A Of course there were transports when I was not present but every transport had to go through the hospital.
Q Now let me establish the following thing, witness. Can you state that this group of 90 gypsies was the only group whose names were not entered?
A There were other gypsies.
Q You mean other groups whose names were not entered?
A Yes.
Q Well, then, how can you tell us that those gypsies who have no names are identical with the experimental subjects?
A I can tell you that because the other persons in the preceding transport arrived and left again and were not accepted into the camp proper.
Q But witness, you cannot exclude, if I understand you correctly, that other groups arrived at the camp whose names were not registered?
A Yes, but that was at an earlier date.
Q Well, how do you know that?
AA number of Jews, for instance, arrived at the camp, who left a day later. They were not registered and they were not any death cases.
Q At any rate, witness, I can establish that you yourself did not register these people into the death book.
A No, not into the official death book.
Q Let me furthermore state that your assumption that these 18 gypsies came from Haagen's experiments is only a conclusion on your part. Witness, you have already said that you did not yourself enter these cases into the death book. Now please tell us, witness, how this copy originated which you have submitted to the Tribunal.
A I was always interested in getting hold of these names because I, as a Dutchman, knew that one day I would be free and I did want to know who found his death from our people in order that I might get back and say that these and these people died at the camp of Natzweiler. All these people were Nacht und Nebel prisoners; they were not openly registered; I only did that in the interest of my citizens.
Q Do not misunderstand me, witness. I do not in any way want to reprimand you because of that. I only want to find out how you got the original death book.
A Oh, I had access to it every day. I was in the hospital and I could take hold of the original book every day. I could do that for hours, if I wanted to; even if SS physicians were present; it was something quite ordinary.
Q And by using these entries in the original book you compiled this copy which was submitted by you?
A Yes, it was copied by me.
Q Does this copy correspond with the original in all its details?
A Yes, exactly.
Q Witness, let me finish this typhus complex. I should like to know how Haagen's work was being carried through. You were present when the first group recrived these protective vaccinations. How were these vaccinations carried out?
A Professor Haagen did them in collaboration with an assistant.
Q What I am asking you, witness, is how were they vaccinated -intramuscular, intravenous, or how?
A I cannot tell you that exactly. I was standing at the ent rance and it was my duty to let these people in.
Q In that case you weren't present during the vaccination itself?
A Well, I was in the room.
Q But you didn't see whether Haagen injected or what he did?
A I really didn't see whether it was intramuscular injection or an intravenous injection.
Q And the second treatment which you think was an infectious treatment, how was that carried through?
A It may have been done in the same way. I can't tell you that exactly.
Q Witness, another question with reference to the death book. A little earlier, in the case of one name, you have stated that you knew exactly that this death came as a result of the experiment, because you added a "V" to that name. What does that "V" mean?
A The V means Versuch - experiment. I merely indicated that personally. That was not in the death book.
Q Witness, you are a Dutchman, aren't you? Do you use the German language so often that even in case of such a notation you use a German word?
A No, I really don't use the German language at all but at that time I certainly did. Sometimes, after I came home, and I can tell you that, some Dutchmen pointed out to me that I have to learn to speak Dutch properly once more. For 5 years I had to speak German and therefore I often made mistakes in Dutch and even today it occurs that I make a mistake.
Q You were saying that you abbreviated the German word "versuch" with a "V". Now, witness, let me depart from the typhus experiments and go over to the further work of Mr. Haagen. You were telling us that Mr. Haagen, in May of 1944, once more went to Natzweiler, is that true?
A I have said that either the end of April or the beginning of May.
Q During this time, witness, was another typhus vaccination or something carried through?
A I can't tell you that exactly. I only know that Professor Haagen, in the case of normal typhus patients, had ordered blood tests to be carried through and sometimes carried them through himself.
Q Now, witness, if I understand you correctly, there were normal typhus cases in the camp too?
A Yes.
Q Were they very numerous in the summer of 1944 or the spring of 1944?
A Well, there were about 40 cases. I was not working in that department and I really can't tell you that exactly but I do think there were about 40 or 30 cases.
Q Isn't it true, witness, that in the spring or summer of 1944 there was a regular typhus epidemic in the camp?
A No.
Q Witness, you yourself were not a nurse in the typhus block were you?
A No.
Q Do you know the witness Grandjean?
A Yes.
Q Do you think Grandjean is a reliable and credible person?
A Yes.
Q Now if I tell you now that Mr. Grandjean, here as a witness before this Tribunal, has appeared in the same way as you have, and has testified, under oath, that he was a nurse in the typhus block and that the number of typhus cases in the spring and summer of 1944 amounted to 1200, would you say that Mr. Grandjean has lied?
A Certainly.
Q But you were just telling us that Mr. Grandjean was a reliable man. Now you say that ho has lied. Why?
A In the whole camp there were only about 1200 people and I am now talking about the Natzweiler Mother Camp. At the most there were 2,000 at the last moment.
Q Witness, perhaps this apparent contradiction can be cleared up that Grandjean certainly did not say that these 1200 cases occurred at one time but that, one after another, throughout the year, there were 1200 cases.
A Well, that is possible.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I wish when defense counsel refers to the testimony of Grandjean he quotes the record exactly as Grandjean testified. I think this will deceive the witness here.
DR. TIPP: I haven't the testimony of Grandjean before me but I shall be able to ascertain the exact page number during the recess and will then be able to inform the Tribunal as to when he appeared.
MR. HARDY: There were a number of cases in camps outside the Mother Camp, as Grandjean testified.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess and then the matter may be investigated.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. TIPP: Mr. President, in accordance with the request of Mr. Hardy, I have determined when the witness Grandjean testified here. He was here as a witness on 6 January 1947, his testimony is on page 1099 of the English record, page 1145 of the German.
The testimony of the witness Holl is also of interest in this connection. He was here on 3 January 1947, his testimony is on page 1058 of the English record, page 1098 of the German.
BY DR. TIPP:
Q Witness, we stopped at the typhus epidemic in Natzweiler. I put to you the testimony of Nurse Grandjean, who said there was a total number of 1,200 cases of typhus and I believe I understood you correctly that you conceded this number might be right. If one took all cases together; is that true?
A Including the outside camps, that might be right.
Q Grandjean was including the outside camps, yes. Witness, I should like to go on to another subject you discussed, the poison gas experiments, which Mr. Haagen allegedly carried out. As far as I can recall, you said Haagen came back about the end of April or beginning of May in 1944; is that right?
A Yes.
Q Well, then will you please toll us from your own knowledge what you know about these gas experiments?
A Professor Haagen came back about this time, he had people picked out again from among the gypsies who were in the camp, who were in a certain block and he put them in the same two rooms.
Q May I interrupt you a moment; how do you know who selected the experimental subjects?
A They were selected by the camp doctor and told to come to the prisoner's hospital, they came early in the morning or at noon, I don't remember exactly and Haagen and the camp doctor picked them out.
Q How many people were taken out of these blocks as possible experimental subjects; was it a large number or a few?
A I believe eight, there were four groups.
Q. Do I understand you correctly? Did you say eight?
A. Perhaps eight, about eight.
Q. The experiments were carried out on eight persons?
A. Yes.
Q. I believe you said this morning that these experimental subjects included some gypsies who had already been in the typhus experiments, is that true?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, do you know whether Mr. Haagen ordered the people to come to the hospital and from what group of persons these people were taken or whether it was a camp doctor who did this? Do you know anything about this?
A. No, I only know that perhaps an orders from above -- I don't know -- the camp doctor ordered them to come to the hospital and Haagen and the SS camp doctor selected them; but primarily Haagen.
Q. Witness, do you know Professor Haagen well?
A. I saw a great deal of him.
Q. Well, the Court has seen Mr. Haagen too. Can you please describe to us what Mr. Haagen looks like?
A. Well, he is about one meter sixty-eight tall. He had gray hair. He wore a Luftwaffe uniform, blue-gray. He had a white epaulet, a golden staff of Aesculapius. He was not fat, but rather stout.
Q. You knew Mr. Haagen from the typhus experiment?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did he carry out these typhus experiments alone?
A. Yes.
Q. Was no one ever there?
A. No --- there were visitors sometimes.
Q. Now, I must put some other testimony before you, witness:
A witness, Hirz, whom we heard here said that Mr. Haagen came with another Stabsarzt of the Luftwaffe.
A. No, sometimes people came alone and sometimes not, but occasionally he brought somebody along.
Q. But when the injections were made nobody was there.
A. No, only the assistants.
Q. It was a female assistant?
A. Yes.
Q. There was no other officer there?
A. No.
Q. Now, what happened in this gassing experiment, Witness? Just briefly.
A. I have already said that Professor Haagen divided these people into four groups. I am assuming this number, eight. It might have been ten. And then he went down with one group each time and he took a drinking cup and an ampule , a white ampule, that he brought with him in a big box. It was put in soot or something like that. It was very well packed. He took that out and he took the people down or else he sent for them; he had gone ahead, and then they came back and were put to bed.
Q. Just a minute, Witness, What actually happened to these people when they were away from the hospital until they came back. You don't know that?
A. No.
Q. And you don't know whether Mr. Haagen performed experiments on these people in. the meantime or whether somebody else did it and maybe Haagen was only the assistant. You can't say that?
A. No.
Q. Now, what did the people look like when they came back?
A. The first were not seriously affected. They were used again later. And became worse and worse. When the worst came the people were trying hard to breathe. They couldn't get air; they had foam at their mouth. Terrible, terrible to look at. I can't judge, of course. I only know that the diagnosis when they died was lung oedema. That was determined by Professor Haagen and some of the prisoner-doctors, including this Dr. Kredit, the Dutch doctor!
Q. You said, Witness, I believe, three people died of these experiments, is that right ?
A. Five, and some died in Dachau too.
Q. How do you know that.
A. I went with an evacuation from Natzweiler to Dachau with the sick transport. There was a train with thirteen hundred patients and these people were among them. I know that on the way some of them died. We had one car for this ward and another car for that ward, and so we had the cases sorted. And Dr. Kredit reported that these people had died, but I don't remember the names.
Q. Now, how many of these people died while they were still in Natweiler and how many died in Dachau?
A. I can only say that I saw some of them in Dachau. One was in the hospital with me for something -- had something the matter with his lungs.
Q. And how many dead people from these experiments did you yourself see in Natzweiler?
A. Five.
Q. Those are the five in the book here?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, can you, opening the book, Witness, tell from the book when these people died? Can you see that from the entry?
A. The month, yes.
Q. Now, Witness, how does it happen that only the month is entered and not the day?
A. The dates were not always given, the dates. Sometimes the report came up. It was always reported to the SS and the date wasn't important, only the month.
Q. But if I understood your correctly before, you said that the death record from which you copied this list was kept in the hospital.
A. Yes.
Q. And was kept by prisoners?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, Witness, it seems rather remarkable that prisoners would not have enough interest in their dead comrades to record the date of the death, especially since you say that there was the intention of notifying the relatives later.
A. If you will look at the book you will see that in the cases of the Dutchmen -- and I was a Dutchman -- I wrote down the exact dates or had them written down, because I was especially interested. The other prisoners , too; but I was interested in my Dutch comrades, and if you look at the Book you will see that in the cases of the Dutchmen the exact date is given.
Q. Well, Witness, are these exact dates given in your copy too?
A. Of the Dutchmen ? Yes they are.
Q. Now, Witness, to go back to Mr. Haagen: Can you say definitely that Mr. Haagen carried out these experiments or is there a possibility that you are confusing Haagen with some other Luftwaafe doctor who was also a Stabsarzt -- captain -- and who to your knowledge actually did carry out such experiments in Natzweiler?
A. What experiments are you talking about, the typhus experiments?
Q. No, I mean the gas experiments.
A. I know only that Haagen only --- was the only one who came to the camp and was the only one who had the interest of having the case history recorded.
Q. You think you can exclude any mistake then?
A. Yes, it is quite impossible.
Q. But whether Haagen actually carried out the experiments, you don't know?
A. No.
Q. Now, Witness, a final question on the witness, Dr. Kredit. Kredit was a Dutchman, I believe.
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us whether Dr. Kredit died?
A. In February, 1945, in Dachau.
DR. TIPP: Then I have no further questions, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further cross-examination by any of the Defense Counsel?
(There was none.)
Has Counsel for the Prosecution any redirect examination?
MR. HARDY: The Prosecution has no further questions, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness is excused from the stand.
(The witness, Nales, left the witness-stand.)
I understand that Counsel for the Defendant Becker-Freyseng has some documents to offer.
MR. HARDY: May I inquire at this time whether other Defense Counsel will be prepared to put on their documentary evidence? It seems to me that some of these translations should be through by now.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any other Defense Counsel prepared with any of the documents which re to be offered in evidence?
MR. HARDY: I think Dr. Wille has one document.
DR. WILLE: I have a single document to offer.
THE PRESIDENT: Will Dr. Wille have any further documents?
DR. WILLE: No, only one.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Wille may offer that document at this time.
DR. WILLE: Mr. President, this is Weltz 25. I have -
THE PRESIDENT: Is that document available to the Tribunal?
DR. WILLE: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you hand them to the Tribunal?
DR. WILLE: I offer this document as Weltz Exhibit 24.
The event described in this document is a visit of Professor Alexander to Hirschau where the aviation medicine institute of Professor Weltze was at that time.