They were waiting for the day or for the night when something would be done to them, something of which they did not know what it might be, but of which they expected they would have some frightful form of death in store for them. The infection was so thorough that there was always the most horrible form of typhus, and it happened quite often there were frightful scenes which the Capo Arthur Dietsch would keep down with iron discipline, because the patients were afraid they were given lethal injections. After a certain period when the actual illness had set in after the infection, ordinary symptoms of typhus would appear, which, of course, as is known, is one of the most frightful illnesses. The infection, as I have already described to you, and particularly during the last two and a half years got so that there were almost always the most horrible symptoms of typhus. In some cases there were outbreaks of insanity, delirium, people would refuse to eat and a large percentage of them would die. Those who went through that disease in a lighter form lived because their constitution was strong, and because the vaccine was effective, but they were forced to observe the death struggle of the others at all times, and they were living in an atmosphere which it is hardly possible to imagine and just what happened to those people who survived the typhus was something which they did not know during the period of convalescence. Would they remain in Block 46 to be used for other purposes? Would they be used as assistants? Would they be used as surviving witnesses of the special experiments and would they have to fear death because of that. All of that was something which they did not know and which aggravated the conditions of these experiments.
Q. Now, Mr. Kogan, do you know whether Dr. Ding ever made a report on these typhus experiments which you have described to the Military Medical Academy?
A. Every experiment carried out in Block 46 in Buchenwald was put down in accurate minutes. On the strength of the notes made in Block 46, temperature diagrams and reports and final results served for the compiling of a report to the Chief SS Hauptsturmbannfuehrer of the SS and was sent to him together with the copy.
Those copies were also destined for any other department which was also interested in the experiments. In other words, if we were concerned with an experiment which was carried out in collaboration with the Behring Works or in collaboration with the Military Academy or the Reich Ministry of the Interior, then that department would be contained in the distribution chart of the original report.
Q When you say that the reports were sent to the Chief Hygienist of the SS; whom do you mean?
A The Chief Hygienist of the SS was SS-Oberfuehrer Professor Doctor Mrugowsky.
Q You said the original of these reports together with copies; did Ding attach distribution lists to the copies noting to whom they should be sent?
A In practice, this changed. At the beginning of my activities as Dr. Ding-Schuler's clerk, he took these reports to Berlin personally. And they were distributed from there; without my knowing details as to where they went. Later on, on frequent occasions, these reports together with the corresponding number of carbon copies for each individual were sent off. For instance it would state on the distribution chart, "To Reichs Medical Officer of the SS, To the Chief of Department 16, SS-Oberfuehrer Professor Doctor Mrugowsky." Then came one original and four carbon copies. There were even copies for Ministerial Director Dr. Christensen, Reichsminister of the Interior, Professor Lockemann and the Behring works.
Or in other cases, if we were concerned with the experimental Department V at Leipzig, and reports went to Oberfuehrer Poppendick, it would say for Messrs. Firm of Maddaus, or Sturmbannfuehrer Doctor Werner.
Q Can you remember any instance in which a written report on the typhus experiments was in fact noted for distribution to the Military Medical Academy?
A The contact with the Military Academy in Berlin is known to me from two or three instances. In the first case, we were actually concerned with a meeting. It was the third Military-Medical Session or Meeting in Berlin. During this meeting, Dr. Ding was making a report about typhus experiments. I do not know whether he actually openly mentioned during that meeting that there were experiments going on in a concentration camp. I expect I guessed from subsequent events, however; at least, it was apparent by means of suspicion since Dr. Ding told me in June, 1943, that professor Rose spoke against these experiments and objected against these experiments quite openly before the entire Congress.
He described these experiments as superfulous. And Dr, Ding, as he told me later in June, 1943, and the Congress had been in May, had rather a difficult position against Professor Rose because the German scientists who were assembled there must have been quite clearly aware of the facts since at the end, Dr. Ding found only one way out--that of hiding behind the secrecy of the Reich.
The two other cases only concerned typhus. In one instance--no, I beg your pardon, I must correct myself--in both cases we were not really concerned with typhus. We were concerned with the production of blood plasma and the examination of the old blood plasma which the Military Academy at Berlin had entrusted to the Concentration Camp in Buchenwald in order to have it examined in Block 36.
Q Witness, I think we will hold the explanation of the blood plasma experiments until a little later on in the examination. Right now, I would like to go back again to this meeting of the Military Medical Academy at which said Dr. Ding made a report on the typhus experiments. I will ask you if Dr. Ding was rather excited at the objections interposed by Professor Rose at this meeting?
A Dr. Ding had been in a condition of considerable excitement for a number of days. During the first weeks of my own work with him, I had not actually formed any close relationship to Dr.Ding. In spite of that, he told me on three or four occasions, again and again, and then under considerable excitement, using curses, what he thought of Professor Rose, and that professor Rose had dared turn against the experiments carried out by Ding on human beings in public. I should not like to repeat some of the expressions which he used.
Q And you say that after Rose had made his objections that Ding would only say to the meeting that the experiments were top secret?
A Dr. Ding told me that he had no way out at the end, but to tell this Professor, using corresponding expressions on that occasion, that there are certain spheres which even a professor would have to respect; there fore, he would be compelled to keep certain matters secret.
Q And when do you recall that this meeting of the Military Medical Academy took place at which Ding made his report?
A To my recollection, this was in May, 1943.
Q Now, Witness, can you tell from the remarks made by Dr. Ding after this meeting whether professor Rose's objections were interposed on moral grounds or shall we say on scientific grounds? Was he objecting to the scientific value of these experiments?
A I can only repeat my own impressions based on the statements made by Dr. Ding. Perhaps some would be inclined in my position as a prisoner to overestimate from a human point of view, the resistance put up by Professor Rose. It was my impression that it was both for scientific as well as human reasons that he objected. After Ding's statement, Professor Rose said that animal experiments with typhus had produced clear-cut results and that the human experiments which had been made, did not in any individual point exceed he results of animal experiments. Therefore, from the scientific point of view, they had to be superfulous; in fact, even otherwise. And this is what Ding had been saying had been unnecessary. This also was interpreted by me as being from the human point of view.
Q Now, Witness, I am going to ask you if anything happened after this meeting which made you change your mind about the humanitarian motives of Professor Rose on the occasion of his speech?
A Approximately one year later or maybe nine months later, Dr. Ding was showing no triumphantly an order from Professor Mrugowsky dealing with a new series of experiments which were to be carried out in Block 26, this time with the so-called Ibsen-vaccine obtained from Copenhagen which had been produced from the liver of mice. This vaccine had been supplied for the very purpose of experiments in the concentration camp at Buchenwald by Professor Rose. He had made a corresponding application to Mrugowsky. Dr. Ding thought and said laughingly, "you see Kogon, now he too has given in."
I must say quite openly, I was flabbergasted because Professor Rose's resistance put up in May, 1943, had been considered by me a symptom of the survival of the ethics of German scientists and medical men.
This experiment with the Ibsen vaccine, did in fact, afterwards take place and an explanation of this contradiction in Rose's attitude adopted in the Third Medical Congress in Berlin is one I cannot comprehend. In my book, "The SS State," I left this question open although I mentioned it.
Q Do you recall whether any of the experimental subjects died during the course of the series of experiments requested by Rose?
A. That is something which I cannot ascertain today according to memory. I believe that there was one person, but I am really not sure. It would have to be ascertained from the diary.
Q. But he suggested, that is Rose suggested, using a Copenhagen vaccine made from the liver of mice in 1944; is that correct?
A. Yes; I think it was in January or February of 1944.
Q. Now, witness, you have mentioned a book and since you brought tho point up; is it true that you have written a book on your experiences and your observations in the Buchenwald Concentration camp?
A. Not in that form, no. I have written a book, called "The SS State" concerning tho system in German concentration camps, but that does not deal with my personal experiences. It describes the structure of the camps and in this connection Buchenwald, where I myself have lived through and which I have survived, was always used as a proper example.
Q. And did you deal in this book with the typhus experiments at Buchenwald at some lenght?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether this book has become available to defense counsel in this case?
A. The book has been for sale now for a few weeks and it is perfectly possible that the defense counsel may have read it.
Q. Now, in connection with the typhus experiments in Block 46, I wish that you would tell the Tribunal what connection the defendant Hoven had with these experiments?
A. As I already mentioned yesterday, Dr. Hoven was Dr. Ding's deputy. Dr. Ding was absent from Buchenwald quite frequently. Dr. Hoven could not start any series of experiments on his own initiative as Dr. Ding was the only one authorized to start such experiments and he was under Dr. Mrugowsky's orders. Dr. Hoven was responsible for the supervision of the carrying out of these experiments, the visits to patients, the reports by means of temperature curves, diary notes and report sheets; in other words to secure an orderly record of those experiments. Secondly, Dr. Hoven was indirectly connected with typhus experiments insofar as the request for selectees, as this was sometimes, as I already emphasized, made through the camp physician.
Q. Now, I want to come back for a moment to the experiments with the Copenhagen vaccine, requested by Professor Rose and I will ask you to look at page 23 of tho Ding diary, which is Prosecution Exhibit 287, and see whether this refreshes your recollection as to whether any of the experimental subjects died. If it please the Tribunal, the corresponding translation of the English text is on page 49 of the Document book and at the bottom and top of page 50.
(Page 23 of the Ding Diary is shown to the witness.)
Will you now state, after refreshing your recollection with the Ding diary, whether any of the experimental subjects died during the course of this Copenhagen vaccine experiments?
A. Now I can remember the following circumstances. After the end of this series of experiments and after the result of many serious illnesses in that series of experiments, I say six fatalities among thirty, which meant twenty six in practise because four dropped out early because of other diseases. After this result, as I was saying, had become known to us in Block 50, I, together with a number of my comrades, doctors and scientists discussed this affair at great length. It now becomes clear to me and I now recollect that there were more fatalities and that we were most depressed about this fact, particularly connected with so important and significant a scientist as Professor Rose.
Q. Now, witness, will you mention for the record the names of a few of these scientists, who were working with you in Block 50?
A. I will mention Lecturer Dr. Ludwig Fleck, Lemberg; specialist in the field of research and the combating of typhus; Dr. Karl Makswitschka, Prague, Bacteriologist; Prof. Dr. Alfred Walachawsky the Pasteur Institute; Prof. Dr. Etienne Suare; Prof. Dr. Waitz, of the University of Strassburg; Prof. von Linzen, Amsterdam; and Dr. Marianne Viopilowski of Karlsruhe.
Q. Now, to go back to the typhus experiments; can you tell the Tribunal approximately the total number of inmates experimented on with typhus?
A. The total number of experimental subjects, who went through Block 46, including the so-called passage persons, totalled nearly one thousand persons. Of these more than half were passage persons used for typhus experiments.
Q. And can you tell the Tribunal approximately how many people died from the typhus experiments, as distinguised from the so-called passage experiments.
A. That varied from case to case, it varied very much. There was one series of experiments with a unique therapeutical preparation from I.G, Farben and a series of experiments in which among the persons, who were immunized, nearly as many died as among the so-called control persons; in a concrete case there were 56.5% among the control persons. Among the immunized persons, who had been treated with this agent, before they were injected and since it was a chemical therapeutical agent, after the injection 53.3% or 53.4%. If there were twenty persons in each series, twenty more immunized control persons, twenty who were treated with this agent and twenty persons who were vaccinated with another agent, so that a comparison could be made, then in each group of twenty people, more than ten died.
Q. Would you say that the total number of persons who died as a result cf the typhus experiments would exceed one hundred?
A. As far as I can recall the total number of deaths from typhus experiments in Buchenwald, not including the passage persons, was between 150 and 160.
Q. Now, let's pass on to some of the other experiments at Buchenwald. What can you tell us of the para-typhoid A & B experiments?
A. The experiments with para-typhoid A and B took place at a time, as far as I can recall, I had just entered the pathology section in Buchenwald, but I am not quite sure of the time but in any case I was not yet so directly informed by documents as was later the case. I know of one example when para-typhoid A bacilla were given to prisoners in Block 46 in potato salad and the effects of this food were observed. As far as I can recall, the report was sent to Professor Lechmann in Berlin, I believe, of the Robert Koch Institute. Details about the experiments with yellow fever, smallpox, para-typhoid A and B, typhoid fever, and a few others I cannot give because, as I have already said, I did not have direct information from my own activity in Block 50 and our entire attention at that time was directed to the typhus experiments in Block 46.
Q. Can you state whether or not any experimental subjects died as a result of any of these other disease experiments, that is, ether than typhus?
A. A number of persons, a comparatively small number, died as a result of other experiments. A very large scale series of experiments, for example, was introduced with yellow fever, but the infection did not take and these experiments, which as far as I recall, included over 140 persons, were discontinued. The number of deaths, of course, depended on the nature and the manner of execution in each individual experiment. There was an experiment which affected only four persons and all four might die - did die in this case - and other experiments with 40 or 50 persons where there are only two or three dead. The total number of deaths in all experiments, with the exception of typhus experiments, according to my recollection, was considerably less than the number cf deaths from typhus and from the transfer of typhus cultures through passage persons.
Q. Do you know anything about experiments with poisons in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp?
A. I know of two such cases. In the one case it was about the turn of the year 1943-44 or in the late fall of 1943, and the second case was probably in the summer of 1944. In each case Russian prisoners of war were used for these experiments. In the first case various preparations of the so-called alkaloid series were put in noodle soup, and 40 of these prisoners of war who were in Block 46, who of course had not idea what was going on, this noodle soup was given to the. Two of these prisoners became so sick they vomited, one was unconscious, the fourth showed no symptoms at all. Thereupon, all four were strangled in the crematory. They were dissected and the contents of their stomachs and other effects were ascertained. The experiment was occasioned by the -- was ordered by the SS Court, by the SS investigating judge, Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Morgan. It was carried out in the presence of Dr. Ding, Dr. Morgan, Dr. Wehnert, SS Hauptsturmfuehrer and SS judge, and one of the three camp leaders, I do not know whether it was Sturmbannfuehrer SS Schubert or SS leader Florstedt. The second experiments --
Q. Witness, before continuing with the second experiment, I wonder if you could tell the Tribunal the reason for carrying out this poison experiment which you have just mentioned?
A. In the summer of 1943 there was a trial going on under the SS court in Berlin against the former commandant of Buchenwald and later commandant of Lublin, concentration camp in Poland, SS Handartenfuehrer Koch. It was reaching its climax. The investigation had lead to very serious charges against Koch, unless the remark that SS Obcrgruppenfuehrer Waldeck, then head of the SS Oberabschnitt Fulda--Werra, was personally combatting Koch, and that this personal antagonism of the two man had brought about the trial. A man by the name of Koehler, a Hauptscharfuehrer in Buchenwald, was arrested by Dr. Morgan and kept in custody in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp. This Hauptscharfuehrer seemed to have testified something against Koch. Two or three days later this Hauptscharfuehrer Koehler was found dead in his cell.
A few hours before he had been quite healthy. He seemed to have taken poison. Dr. Morgan planned that Dr. Hoven, together with the guard, Hauptscharfuehrer Sommer, had killed Koehler in the presence of a scientist from Jena. Koehler was dissected in the dissecting room and two of my comrades were present at this autopsy. The head of the pathology section was there and in the stomach of the dead man drugs from the alkaloid series were found The amount and the specific type was not known. In order to determine the fatal dosage cf poisons of this type the SS court ordered an experiment on four Russian prisoners of was, the experiment which I have just described in Block 46. On the 20th of September, 1943, Dr. Hoven was arrested at Dr. Morgan's orders and remained under the custody cf the SS court until the end cf March 1945. I knew the date exactly because on that day, which was a Saturday afternoon, Dr. Hoven came to Block 50 on his motorcycle, asked me about Dr. Ding Schuler, who was not there, and went away again quite depressed and half an hour later I learned from the hospital, the prisoners' hospital, that Dr. Hoven was expected to be arrested himself.
Q. In other words, Hoven was suspected by Morgan of having done away with the witness against Koch, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, will you explain to the Tribunal about this second poison experiment?
A. In the summer of 1944 - I am not quite sure about the time - Dr. Ding, whose name was already Schuler, at that time came from Berlin and told me he had a very unpleasant task to carry out. It was extremely secret he said, and after a few hours without my having asked, he told me in his room; he told me details about it.
I must point out that at this time there was really nothing any longer, whatever it might be, private or official, that Dr. Schuler would not have told me in order to get my advice. He realized quite clearly that the cause of National Socialism was lost. He was only looking for safety.
He said, "Kogen, do you see any way to get me out of this business? I am supposed to test a poison here on Russian prisoners of war. I must report on it immediately. It is a direct order from Mrugowsky. I don't know how I can get out of it."
He gave me the prescription, the chemical formula of this poison, and I was to put this prescription in an envelope and sort while he watched. In the haste I was not able to read it. It had a code name. I put the prescription in the envelope. We were interrupted in this talk. I said to him only, "You know my point of view." I must add here that in long conversations at night I had tried to make clear to him that there was no other way for him than to do as much as possible far the political prisoners, but that as a human being, if there was a serious case he must refuse to carry out immoral orders.
He laughed at me when I said that and said, "I know your religious and moral ideas. You know that I don't believe in anything; that this is out of the question for me; that I can only collaborate with the political prisoners."
In this case, this case of the poison, he went in great haste and excitement to the camp leader, Sturmbannfuehrer Schubert, whom he had informed beforehand by telephone, and the commandant, Oberfuehrer Pistor, had been informed, and in the presence of a fourth person -- I don't know whether it was the camp physician -- they went to the crematory, not to Block 46. The Russian prisoners of war again, four people ha been taken there in the collar in which were the 46 books on the walls on which the people were strangled. These four people, these four Russians, were administered this poison.
I do not know how it was administered. As Ding-Schuler later told me, they died in a very short time. They were dissected and burned. A written report on this matter Dr. Ding did not send to Berlin. He told me he bad to report this to Mrugowsky orally. Ding was not only excited about this matter, but afterwards he was very secretive about it. He did not want me to talk about it anymore. From hints and indications in his conversation I learned that there were experiments -- that there was same connection with experiments in the Concentration Camp Sachsenhausen near Oranienburg which Mrugewsky had carried out in Ding's presence. Prisoners must have been shot with prisoned bullets there because Ding said that a Russian prisoner of war had succeeded in having a knife, I think it wasr, and attacking Mrugowsky, but that the prisoner had been subdued immediately.
In any case Ding did not want to have anything more to do with the matter even in my presence. A short time later the prescription and the sealed envelope were burned in my presence by Ding. He held it over a candle in my presence and burned it. I could not learn the contents.
Q Do you know anything about experiments in Buchenwald with incendiary bombs?
THE PRESIDENT: Before opening a new subject in the examination of this witness, the Court will recess.
(Recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is now in session.
Q Witness, I had just asked you before the intermission whether or not you know anything about experiments conducted at Buchenwald with the phosphorus content of incendiary bombs.
A I did not hear the German translation. Will you please repeat the question?
Q Is it coming through now?
AAs far as I can recall, I was told by Dr. Ding in the Spring of 1944 that he had been given orders by Professor Dr. Mrugowsky in collaboration with the firm Madaus & Co. at Dresden-Ratebeul to carry out experiments on human beings with regards to the effect of a drug against the contents of phosphorus kautchuk incendiary bombs. I had the impression as if the idea for this experiment had come from Dr. Ding and had been given to Dr. Mrugowsky by him, and then he had obtained the approval to carry out this experiment. On the part of the firm Madams, negotiations were led by a certain Dr. Koch. He had a drug which he called R-17 and which was used by the German population after attacks in which incendiary bombs were dropped.
By way of Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Koch and the higher Police leader of the Dresden sector, the contents of phosphor incendiary bombs were sent to Buchenwald, and, four experimental persons from Block 46 who had survived other experiments had this phosphorus liquid applied to their forearms, and the wholemass was then inflamed and then was treated in the various manners. In the case of one experimental subject water was used in order to wipe off the liquid, and in other cases a damp rag was applied and in the last case R-17 was applied. Several experiments were carried out on these four subjects.
In one instance the drug R-17 was applied immediately after the mass had been inflamed, and in another instance after approximately five minutes and in another case yet after thirty minutes. After the mass had burned the arm, serious burns developed which were still observed for two weeks afterwards. The experiment was conducted by the Special Section 5 at Leipzig, and photographs were taken of the wounds. And previously experi meats on animals had been carried out in Block 40 on rabbits.
These experiments were conducted in the same manner, and the various results were also photographed, and the photographs were compared with each other, and they were put into an album that was exactly described, and the results were sent to Berlin -- two copies. One was sent to Professor Mrugowsky, and the other was sent to Oberfuehrer Poppendick, but I am not quite sure about that. I believe that Oberfuehrer Poppendick must surely have received a report on this matter because Dr. Ding intended to write an article about this in a German medical journal.
Q Now, you have mentioned an album report. Did you see this report?
A I have personally made the report after having it dictated to me by Dr. Ding.
Q I will ask you if the document which I will now have handed to you, and which is Document NO-579, is the report on these incendiary bomb experi ments which you have described.
MR. McHANEY: I will ask that the original of this document be passed up to the Tribunal.
Q I didn't hear any answer to the question.
A Yes. It is a carbon copy of the report with the original photographs.
MR. McHANEY: I offer Document No-579 as Prosecution Exhibit 288, and I will ask that the original be passed up to the Tribunal for inspection. I will ask that the Tribunal turn particularly to Page 15 and following of the Exhibit itself. Your honor, the original. I think you would find the pictures more easy to discern in the original document. Page 15 and following are pictures of burns on the arms of humans beings.
Q Witness, did you see any of the experimental subjects who were burned with this phosphorus?
A I personally have seen all the experimental subjects because this experiment was carried out in the private room of Dr. Ding in Block 50 and in the library of the Hygenic Institute in Block 50. The reason for this was that the execution in Block 46 amongst the experimental subjects that were located there and who were destined for other purposes would have caused far too much excitement.
Q Were these burns very severe?
A as far as I can recall they were very severe in three out of the four cases.
Q Did the experimental subjects suffer any pain?
A From Capo Arthur Dietsch it had been suggested that the persons were to be given an anesthetic as soon as they came into Block 50 so such violent scenes could be avoided, and in Block 50 which was completely different from Block 46 it was to be avoided that the persons were handcuffed, as was the common practice in Block 46. The persons were thus, at least, in the first experiment, but I have only seen the persons. I have not personally witnessed the experiments, and I have seen them before as veil as afterwards. It was, at least, during the first experiment the persons were given an anesthetic and after about half an hour they regained consciousness and complained about very severe pains. You could see that they were really suffering very badly. I must confess that I personally after having looked at the photographs, that I personally almost became sick.
Q Do you knew whether the injuries which they received are permanent?
A In the case of some of the wounds, it is completely impossible that they will over become completely healed; very deep scars must have remained because the wounds were big and were as deep as from two or two and a half centimeters.
Q Do you know whether any of the experimental subjects died?
A Four persons were returned to Black 46, and I do not knew anything about their future fate which awaited them there. I especially do not know if they were used for further experiment
Q Do you know the nationality of the experimental persons used?
A No; however, all four were the green triangle which was to signify hardened criminals and that they were Germans.
Q And, you state that the purpose of these experiments was to test certain chemical preparations of the Madaus Company in treating the burns?
A Yes.
Q. Let us move on to the old blood plasma experiments which you mentioned earlier this morning in connection with the Military Medical Academy. What do you know about those experiments?
A The Military Academy in Berlin? I am not sure -- was the name the Military Medical Academy? I do not know the name exactly, any more at this tinme. In the year 1944, they made the request by way of Mrugowsky that all blood plasma concerned which was being kept at Berlin should be tested on experimental subject? that is, blood transfusions were to take place, and it was to be determined if this blood plasma could probably be administered not without having any ill effects on the subjects. In particular if there would be any effect of shock in the case of the experiment tal subjects. Persons were selected by Arthur Dietsch, but I cannot say as to what category of prisoners they belonged to.
However, I believe that this was left to his personal decision. And the experiments were carried on for a rather long period of time. If I remember correctly until the first month of the year 1945. And, the report about the feasibility of this blood plasma was regularly sent to Berlin to Dr. Mrugowsky with a carbon copy for the Academy.
Q Can you say whether any of the persons who were subjected to this old blood plasma transfusions suffered any ill effects?
A. I can recall from the reports which I have read that several cases -- several complaints by Arthur Dietsch were made, and a certain series of numbers of this old blood plasma were afterwards discontinued. The experimental subjects were infected in these cases, and apparently had been used in other experiments in Block 46. So, we in Block 50, discussed the matter that from a scientific point of view and from a practical point of view, the experiments did not have any specific value because persons who showed some effect or who died from these experiments, it could not be clearly certain as to what specific effect the results had been caused.
Q You state then, witness, that some of the experimental subjects who were subjected both to the typhus experiments and to the old blood plasma experiments eventually died?
A I believe I can recall -- I am quite certain that same of them died. Only, the specific causes could not be clearly determined because no person died as an immediate result of those transfusions.
Q In other words, you could not tell whether the cause of death was due to the type of the previous experiment or the old blood plasma experiment; is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Do you know approximately how many inmates were subjected to this old bleed plasma test?
A In any single experiment a group of from 12 to 20 persons were used, and it always varied. As far as I can recall at least five such series were selected.
Q How, do you recall any experiments with blood taken from typhus convalescence to produce a serum to be used as an anti-toxin?
A In Block 50 there was a guest laboratory, that is to say, a laboratory which had been placed at the disposal of Sturnbannfuehrer Doctor Ellenbeck. It was not under Doctor Schuler. This Sturmbannfuehrer Doctor Ellenback was directly subordinated to Doctor Mrugrowsky. As I found out from Doctor Ding, he had orders from Mrugrowsky to got typhus serum from the Buchenwald Concentration Camp in order to supply, the Berlin SS hospital and other SS hospitals. Approximately toward the end of the summer of 1944 until the spring of 1945, the typhus convalescence in Block 46 -- blood was taken from them regularly, and I was usually between 250 and 300 centimeters of blood which was changed in to this serum, and which was taken from these patients This was kept in Block 46 and then it was sent to Block 50, and whenever a courier arrived from Berlin it was dispatched from Block 50.
Q Do you know whether any of these convalescence patients died as a result of taking too much blood for the purpose of making it into a serum?
A Normally the convalescence serum -- it was made a practice to take it from convalescence patients who were convalescing from typhus. However, in this case, the particular circumstance which were in the concentration camp, and in particular Block 46, must also be considered. Toward the end of 1944 we were almost completely out of drugs, and the typhus convalescence patients in Block 46, around this time, were also really suffering from other diseases, these who had been sent to Buchenwald Concentration Camp in transports.