A. I already said that Dr. Ding did not do any yellow fever testing for us.
Q. And you suggested the possibility that he kept four or five of these ampules of vaccine after you had been there and he might have conducted some tests of his own with those. Is that right?
A. This possibility exists.
Q. Well, I want to demonstrate it to you that there is no such possibility. Witness, you were there on February 8th, 1943. Witness, look on page nine.
A. Yes.
Q. See there where it says February 8, 1943: "Visit of Oberstabsarzt Dr. Eyer from the Institute for Spotted Fever and Virus Research of the OKH in Crakow and Oberstabsarzt Dr. Schmidt from the Army Medical Inspectorate." Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, will you turn back to page 7? Read the entry, 10 January, 1943, which was just about thirty days before you were in Buchenwald. I think you will see that the yellow fever tests were carried out then and that was before you even got there with your yellow fever ampules.
A. That is correct - according to this book, it is correct.
Q. So then the possibility, which you suggested, is really no possibility at all; is it?
A. I don't know what the proof of this matter is.
Q. Witness, direct your attention to this entry on page seven, will you, in the first paragraph there? It seems lice virus is being handled for safety, because for each vaccine a test is to be performed on five persons. You want to tell the Tribunal that Dr. Ding just did not know what he was talking about; there was really no point in testing this yellow fever vaccine?
A. I said that the testing of the yellow fever vaccine was considered to be superfluous by me since the vaccine was produced according to no methods and it was harmless as it was.
Q. Ding just did not know what he was doing; is that right?
A. I do not know.
Q. Let us read two paragraphs down where it says: "The results of the yellow fever vaccine tests are to be sent to Department 16 in the SS Main Headquarters in duplicate; we will forward one to the manufacturer and one to the Supreme Command of the Army, OKH. Attention Oberstabsarzt Dr. Schmidt." Did you ever get any reports on the yellow fever tests?
A. No.
Q Can you offer any explanation for this entry?
A. No, I cannot explain it.
Q. You also testified, witness, that you kept a very careful close watch on these yellow fever vaccines; this same entry under Item 5 shows that they had some yellow fever vaccines from the OKH - Kracow, under Item 5 and Item 8; do you see that?
A. I have not found it yet - page 5?
Q. Page 7.
A. Yes.
Q. Under 10 January 1983, can you see there the tested list of OP Numbers?
A. Page 8, that is right.
Q. Do you see under No. 5 and No. 8 that they had some Yellow fever vaccines from the OKH in Krakow. Do you suppose that they received that through the SS Medical Department to use like they did in the Weigl vaccines?
A. No, no, yellow fever vaccine was not furnished by us at all; I therefore cannot explain this entry at all.
Q. Now, witness, don't you think it is about time you told us the truth concerning this visit to Buchenwald. I have the work report for 1983 of Dr. Ding and he says that 8 February, 1943, you inspected the clinical station in Buchenwald and the clinical station is where they carried out these typhus experimental matters; now don't you want to tell the Tribunal you inspected that Typhus experimental block like Dr. Ding says in the report?
Would you like to see it?
A. I should like to state that I did not see any typhus experimental stations or anything like that; I merely witnessed the presentation and the dissolution of the vaccine, which I mentioned before.
Q. Witness, this form No. 571, Prosecution Exhibit 285 it says: "Visit of Major Dr. Eyer (MC) from the institute for spotted fever and virus research of the OKH in Krakow and Major Dr. Schmidt from the army medical inspectorate." If you don't have this document before you, I will pass it up to you. Right at the bottom of the page, witness.
A. Yes, I can see it.
Q. Did you or did you not inspect the clinical section with Dr. Ding?
A. I did not.
Q. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further re-cross examination of this witness by the Defense Counsel? Any re-direct examination?
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
BY DR. NELTE: (Counsel for the Defendant Handloser.)
Q. Do you have the work report, which the Prosecutor just mentioned before, the report with the OP Numbers.
A. You mean page No. 8?
Q. Will you please look at Document No. 571?
A. Yes.
Q. On Page 5 of the Work report, under No. 111, you will find an entry of 8 February, 1943. This entry is identical and conforms with the entry in the Ding Diary, which you know. I now ask you to look at the visits listed under No. 111; there are altogether four visits. Read them again, it says on the 8th of February, 1943: "Visit of the clinical station by Oberstabsarzt Dr. Eyer and Oberstabsarzt Dr. Schmidt." and on the 24th of August and 3rd of September and the 29th of September. You always find the designation visit by these various visitors. From the use of the word usually used in military channels, can you say what the basic difference is whether you consider something as a visit or an inspection?
A. The expression "inspection" is only used when one is concerned with official relationships of subordinates and superiors. If somebody visits without any official source, that is to say there can be no official relationship between the visitor and the one that is being visited.
Q. I have no further questions.
DR. FLEMING (Counsel for the defendant Mrugowsky): Mr. President, I ask you to permit me that I could ask another few questions on the basis of the questions put by the prosecutor.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. FLEMING:
Q. Witness, you have stated that the testing of typhus vaccines on human beings was of no value. Dig you ever work with typhus?
A. No.
Q. In that case your judgment about the value of the typhus experiments is not derived on the basis of your own personal experience with typhus viruses and typhus vaccines?
A. No.
Q. You said yourself that the testing methods of the typhus vaccines on the animal which were carried out by the institute at Frankfurt an Main were partly attacked by industry. Have you any reason to believe that this interference on the part of the industry was unjustified?
A. I have no reason to believe that - well, you see, this is a scientific question which has not yet been solved. That is why it says in the document that some kind of a unified testing method was to be defined. We, at any rate, kept to the state investigation because that, for us, was the proper authority.
Q. Witness, do you know whether the typhus virus in the case of the animal brings about a disease which in every way can be compared to a disease of a human being?
A. The typhus virus has no such effect.
Q. Then wouldn't one have to say that the testing of typhus vaccines on human beings was not without value and that in addition to experiments on animals, experiments on human beings had to be carried through if there was any intention to produce certain typhus vaccines in the army and in camps in the case of hundreds of thousands of people?
A. We had another safeguard, namely, every soldier who was vaccinated against typhus was registered in his pay book and it could be seen with what vaccine and what production of vaccine this man was vaccinated.
If somebody who was vaccinated contracted typhus, such an entry was taken over into his case history. On the basis of the case history one could establish which vaccine proved to be the better or the worse. I think that this is a method which we carried through and which led us, I am sure, to a good end.
Q. This method, no doubt, is a method which one would have adopted in normal times but didn't it take an extraordinarily long time until one could receive usable results?
A. That is correct.
Q. In the case of the emergency which you have mentioned wasn't it necessary to see to it that one could judge as quickly as possible what vaccines were a valid protection in order to avoid having to vaccinate hundreds and thousands of soldiers with unusable vaccines?
A. In these questions the issue at stake was to decide whether one vaccine is a little more effective than another. We, on the part of production, were only interested in producing as much of it as possible. It is not so important to know whether one vaccine is a little better than the other.
Q. When using this method of testing, wasn't there a danger not only to use vaccines which were a little less effective than others, but also to use vaccines which had no protection value whatsoever?
A. No. We tested these vaccines in animal experiments and one could never say in such a case that one would receive a vaccine which was of no value at all.
Q. Do you know the so-called Ipsen vaccine from Copenhagen?
A. No.
Q. In that case you don't know that this was very effective in the case of animals but of no value in the case of human beings?
A. No, I don't know that.
Q. You don't know it. Thank you. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other examination of this witness by defense counsel? Has the prosecution any further questions? The witness may be excused. Does counsel for defendant Handloser desire that the witness Hartleben be called?
The Marshal will summon the witness Hans Hartleben.
HANS HARTLEBEN, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE SIEBRING: Please hold up your right hand and be sworn, repeating after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE SIEBRING: You may be seated.
THE PRESIDENT: Before proceeding with the examination of this witness the Tribunal will be in recess.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session. May it please your Honors', the defendant Herta Wberhauser having been excused by the Tribunal this afternoon is absent.
THE PRESIDENT: The secretary General will note for the record that defendant Herta Oberhauser has been excused for the balance of the afternoon.
The Secretary General will file the physician's certificate.
The Counsel may proceed with the examination of the witness.
BY DR. NELTE:
Q. Witness, will you please give your name.
A. Hans Hartlenben.
Q. When and where were you born?
A. On 25 January 1896 at Halle on Salle.
Q. Will you please tell the Tribunal about your career.
A. I attended a high school gymnasium in Halle on Saale, and Studied medicine in Freiburg, Breisgau and Halle. Then, in 1923 I entered the Army of the Reich. I was at various posts as medical officer, and I was trained in internal medicine. Then, I was in charge of the internal medical section in a post hospital in Stuttgart, and on the 1st of January 1937, I was transferred to the Army Medical Inspectorate. Originally I was a consultant there, a referent. Then, I was a group leader, Gruppenleiter, and on the 1st of October 1940, I became section chief of the organizational section of the Medical Inspectorate. In May 1943, I was sent to the front as corps physician with the 38th and later of the 57th Armoured Corps. In July 1944, I became Army Physician for the Third Armoured, and I was this until I was captured.
Q. And, where are you at the moment?
A. At the moment I am on the witness stand in Nurnberg, before this Tribunal.
Q. And, when you are not here?
A. When I am not here, I am in a prison camp at Garmisch.
Q. In a Prisoner of war camp?
A. Yes, a prisoner of war camp.
Q. I am interested in your activities as chief of the Organizational Section in the Army Medical Inspectorate. You said this was from the 1st of October 1940 until May 1943. Will you please describe your work as head of this section?
A. All organizational questions in the field of the medical service were taken care of in addition to basic questions, organizational questions in the wider sense, such as training of the non-commissioned officers and the men, seeing that the personnel in the hospitals and with the units in the field, the medical units it the field, and in addition had to obtain medical equipment during the war. Another group was in charge of development of medical equipment, medical instruments, and-so-forth. A third group was in charge of medical organizational measures of care as well as hospitals and the transport of patients at home. Finally, there was another group in charge of the question of expanding the medical service.
Q. Did the organizational questions include working out regulations for the new office of the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Services?
A. Yes.
Q. We would like to hear from you, who helped in creating this decree, and the instructions in 1942. We are interested in the interpretation of the instructions of 1942. Although, this was published or it must have reached many Wehrmacht units, we have no copy of it, and the Prosecution is very unhappy about this because the powers of defendant Handloser was to have been regulated by this regulation. I do not want to interrupt you by question. Will you please tell us about the decree of 1942; the instructions, how it came about, how it was written because the interpretation is of special importance.
A. The instructions had quite a long history which developed during the war. It came about that in the nature of the thing that the developments for the creation of such an office were urgent. At the beginning of the war the medical service of the army, and no doubt also of the other branches of the Wehrmacht, did not have any superfluity of men and materials. There was a considerable lack in important fields. To give an example - at the beginning of the war to a very large extent we had a lack of trained medical personnel, but also in the field of materials and medical equipment there was a great scarcity. To give an example again - an important group of medical instruments had not been set up at the beginning of the war and in some fields did not even exist, x-ray apparatus was lacking too, and ambulances were lacking and other things. No wonder then that at the beginning of the war the need for all of these things and for trained personnel rose suddenly. In the Army, which was the largest branch of the Wehrmacht, this was most urgent, but in the other branches of the Wehrmacht it was no doubt similar. Moreover raw materials gradually became more and more scarce, and industry was not as efficient in doing away with these scarcities in a relatively short time. There was not only the need of the branches of the Wehrmacht, but also the civilian needs for hospitals and doctors, which at the beginning of the war still had supplies, but as the war went on it needed a great deal of replacement of materials, and there were also difficulties in the medical supplies for the civilian population. These things made it necessary for a certain unity to be created.
Q. Excuse me, the war began on the 1st of September, 1939, and the position of the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service was created by the decree of the 28th of July, 1942. Will you please explain why it took so long, you are speaking of the scarcity in 1939?
A. At the beginning of the war, in the first years, these difficulties could be overcome by one measure or another and improvisation, but then gradually the longer the war lasted the more urgent the need became and the more necessary a certain unification was more necessary also because the branches of the Wehrmacht did not check upon one another and did not know whether one branch of the Wehrmacht, for example, had ordered more medical equipment than another.
Then there was a necessity for a central regulation in the branches of the Wehrmacht, but none of the branches of the Wehrmacht urged such a regulation. There were probably two reasons for this. One reason is probably that each branch of the Wehrmacht feared the creation of a central management of the medical service, that it's sphere of activities would be restricted where individual branches of the Wehrmacht had worked independent up until then and a closer check had to be expected. On the other hand each of the higher medical officers who would likely be considered for this position no doubt feared that he would not have enough authority within the High Com of the Wehrmacht. The OKW's set up was unfavorable for this. If it did not on behalf of the Fuehrer, the OKW was in no position to give definite orders to the various branches of the Wehrmacht, and there may have been the fear that a Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service would be very limited in his authority. Then in the year 1942, the High Command of the Wehrmacht intervened itself, not that it had a very clear view of conditions in the Medical Service itself, but in view of a unification of other fields of work. The question was buought up for discussion and a long order from the Chief of the High Command of the Wehrmacht made it possible, or rather ordered his Staff, the High Command of the Wehrmacht, to introduce unification wherever this was necessary, to simplify and coordinate forces. The Army Medical Inspector was discussed, and a Colonel Munch was in charged of the discussions from the OKW. He was killed in action later and the Army Medical Inspectorate put me charge of the preliminary discussions. Then in constant collaboration with Chief of the Staff of the Army Medical Inspectorate and the Army Medical Inspector personally, these discussions were carried on. In these preliminary discussions it was shown clearly that there were many objections from the branches of the Wehrmacht which had to be expected, and that not much more could be done at first than this coordination things in some form in which the State of affairs made it urgent. This meant primarily coordination between the branches of the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS on the one side and the civilian sector on the other side, as far as personnel or materials are co*** The Fuehrer decree was discussed and drafted and also the official instructions for the Chief of the High Command of the Wehrmacht, which was be issued for the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service.
The inclusion of Professor Brandt was also discussed. Colonel Munch apparently had instructions from his superiors on this question, and it was provided that Professor Brandt was to be called upon primarily to coordinate the two big sectors, the civilian sector on the one side and the military sector of the Wehrmacht, and the units which had been or were subordinate to the Wehrmacht on the other side. The negotiations dragged out for sometime. There were changes repeatedly, and finally in the late summer of 1942 the Fuehrer Decree on this coordination of the Medical Service and the Official Instructions for the new Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service could be issued, with the note worthy characteristic that the Army Medical Inspector, who was already at the same time performing the duties of an army surgeon was now to take over the duties of the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service as well. Second, the measure that a special chief of staff for the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service to deal with Wehrmacht affairs was to be appointed. This was how these two regulations were issued.
Q. Now, the difficulties which you spoke of, the differences existing before the decree was issued, were they expressed in the formulation of this official instructions? Will you please explain that in connection with the tasks or functions of the Wehrmacht Medical Chief, according to the decree and the official instructions?
A. These difficulties, as I already said, already indicated in speaking of the preliminary discussions, were doubtless expressed in the official instructions. They were even expressed in the Fuehrer's Decree which contains a preamble which assumed that the coordination in the field of personnel and materials was the main thing. The Fuehrer's Decree also contained much limi tation of important instructions concerning the Waffen SS. It said that the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service in basic questions of the Medical Ser vice of the Waffen SS could act only with the previous approval of the Medical Chief of the Waffen SS to give any orders. This in effect meant a previous agreement and one may add that in effect, as far as the other branches of the Wehrmacht are concerned, this was the situation from the very beginning. Generally it came only to orders issued by the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service when there had been preliminary discussions on basic questions between those concerned. This whole solution was to a certain extent a compromise to a quite considerable extent and this compromise is expressed in the fact that the official instructions, which I helped to dra* up, were relatively brief and were also in relatively general terms. First it stated that the holder of the office, that is, the future Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service in Wehrmacht matters, was under the Chief of the High Command of the Wehrmacht, which meant that the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service was under three authorities, under the Chief of the High Command of the Wehrmacht for Wehrmacht questions, under the Chief of the General Staff for questions concerning the field army, under the Commander of the Reserve who was Generalobersarzt Frohm, at that time, for questions concerning the reserve army. The official instructions in general form then said that the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service was to direct and manage the Wehrmacht Medical Service in questions concerning the Wehrmacht branch jointly, and I may perhaps, if this is desired, go into the question of what such general questions were at that time.
Primarily, as has been repeatedly said, it is the question of coordinating materials and personnel, then the question of volunteer nurses, combating epidemics, and perhaps hospitals and similar questions, which saving of personnel and materials could be effected by the coordination, and in which simplification could be effected.
Q. Now, may I intervene here to speak of epidemic control, which is especially interesting here. Does that mean that research was under the Chief of Wehrmacht Medical Service - that was one of the duties?
A. As far as I remember, this question played no role at all at that time. The questions which needed coordination were personnel and materials I think I can recall that the question of research was not mentioned at all in these instructions. This is indicated also by the circumstance that we had recognized this coordination for quite different reasons and that these instructions were of quite a general nature and quite brief and did not go into details at all. To that extent this question was certainly not in the foreground, certainly not too much.
Q. Now, will you please say who or what was under the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service?
A. Nothing really, aside from his own staff, which, of course, was under him. There was really no subordinate relationship mentioned in the instructions. It was only said that the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service in general joint questions was to act on behalf of the Chief of the High Command of the Wehrmacht and give instructions to the Medical Chief of the medical branches of the Wehrmacht, not orders in the actual sense, but direct. There was a frequent distinction in German regulations between orders and instructions. This is a general word, a concrete term which was just in the case.
Q. Then the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service directed, as you said, in general the Medical Service concerning those tasks which were recognized as joint ones and which he had taken?
A. Yes.
Q. Secondly, he did not have any power to issue orders in this connection - he could merely issue instructions?
A. Yes.
Q. And you express this authority as the expression of a regulation based on agreement, preliminary agreement?
A. Yes, that is how it was in effect, that there was first agreement and this was necessary because in the strict sense there was not power to issue orders and the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service did not have an authority, any means to assert his authority and if we were to avoid that opposition to instructions or failure to follow instructions, it was more practically to sit down around a table before hand and agree on basic questions, so that after the instructions were issued, the work would begin immediately.
Q. Now, a concrete question. Was the defendant Handloser, as Chief the Wehrmacht Medical Service, in charge of the research institutes of the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS?
A. Not according to the instructions, nothing was under him. The research institutes, I think that remained under the chief of the various branches of the Wehrmacht.
Q. Now, how could the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service, in order to realize his duties, obtain any concrete basis for his position, for his office?
A. I have already described that in part. In order to be able to work, he needed material from the various branches of the Wehrmacht and the instructions provided that the branches of the Wehrmacht had the duty to give information in such general matters. According to the instructions this referred only to matters which affected all branches of the Wehrmacht not anything specifically belonging to the Luftwaffe or the Navy, which concerned this particular branch of the Wehrmacht, only things which affected all branches of the Wehrmacht in the same way.
Q. Now what is the relation to the Medical Service of the Waffen SS, you spoke of the basic restrictions in the decree of 28 July 1942; was this expressed more concretely later on?
A. The instructions, as far as I recall, contained a passage which I believe even restricted the wording of the Fuehrer's decree; the Fuehrer's decree speaks only of the Waffen SS, but I believe that these instructions contained a passage concerning the units of the Waffen SS under the Wehrmacht or something like that and the organizations attached to the Wehrmacht, such as the Reich Labor Service, or the OT or something like that. As far as I recall, there was such a passage in these instructions of 1942.
Q. Now, in order to make a clear picture of the relations between 1942 and September 1, 1944, the second decree concerning the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service and the second official instructions; I will ask you to look at the decree and the instructions of 7 August, 1944, which I have already given to you. This is Document No. 227 and Exhibit No. 6 of the Prosecution. We will get a clear picture if you will discuss the individual parts of these instructions and tell us, as far as you can remember what the instructions of 1942 said, then it will be clearly shown how strong the position of the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service was in 1942 and how it was to be according to the decree of 1944. Please begin with Instruction 1.
A. First, I believe I may say in general ......
MR. HARDY: May I request Dr. Nelte to tell how long it is going to take for this extended examination. We have had this same material put to the Defendants Brandt and Handloser and several other witnesses. It is repetitious and taking up the time of the Tribunal. I think we should shorten up the examination and make it as brief as possible.
THE PRESIDENT: I am sure that the counsel for the defendant Handloser does not want to waste any time and it seems to me the testimony of the witness is rather enlightening and without unduly extending this examination it may proceed.
Q. What does this power to issue orders mean?
A. Purely in the medical field; in the field of the medical service, not the power to intervene in military matters. That is clear as the medical service is limited to matters, which effect the various problems of the Wehrmacht jointly.
Q. May I ask you to repeat that official matters in the medical service were limited to those fields in which the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service was in charge, which effected all members of the Wehrmacht jointly. Please tell whether this question of joint tasks is also settled in this service regulation; that it does not contain general authority?
A. Under II, in this regulation it is said in much more detail what individual duties are considered joint or common duties. The first regulation spoke quite generally on this subject, for example, here under 2-A, there is quite a new formulation.
The authorities of all scientific medical institutes, academies and other medical institutions of the services of the Wehrmacht and of the Waffen SS are under 2-B and that was not in the first version, but I must say that this is only a compromise because these institutes were not subordinate. There is no talk of subordination here, it says under the Chief of the Medical Service, under the Chief of the High Command of the Wehrmacht, but it does not say who was under the Chief of the Medical Service, so apparently this question was intentionally avoided, otherwise it was customary to make these things clear in such regulations.
Q. In the Military Medical Service, it is a matter of course that where there is a position of subordination, this is clearly expressed
A. That was always clearly expressed in the service regulations, which I remember. In the regulations for the army, for example, the tasks of the Army Medical Inspectorate are mentioned in one point and it is immediately listed who is under him, the medical officers, the noncommissioned officers, the men, etc. I have seen that in that form in many such regulations and there is a special regulation about ranks where that is determined specifically.
Q. Now, may I say where it is not specifically said that there is a relationship of superior and subordinate, then there is no authority to issue orders in General?
A. That is my opinion.
Q. Now, one could have to assume that the specialized authorities issued orders where it applied to the institutes and academies, etc., and there it says again the Waffen SS; how about the Waffen SS according to this regulation?
A. Here it says at the bottom in this footnote that the Wehrmacht includes only the units under the Wehrmacht, the units of the Waffen SS.
Q. Then it remains the same?
A. Yes, in effect it remains the same. I do not know whether the Waffen SS, as far as its units were under the Wehrmacht, had any institute
Q. Will you please look at 11, 4-A, where it says that other duties of the Chief of the Medical Service of the Wehrmacht will be in the medical scientific field, uniform measures in the field of health guidance, research and the combatting of epidemics and all medical measures which require a uniform ruling among the Wehrmacht; was this ruling also in 1942?
A. No, it was not included in 1942 in this form?
Q. May one conclude that from the 1st of September 1944 the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service not only could combat epidemics but also in addition could intervene in the research work carried on by the individual branches of the Wehrmacht?
A. That seems quite improbable to me from the situation. For example if the Luftwaffe planned some research which affected only that branch of Wehrmacht ...
Q. No, no, I mean only if these are things which affected the common interest; for example, hepititis epidemica, which you know, or typhus. ** this research a question which can be uniformly regulated?
A. No, the uniform regulation of research would not serve the achieve ment of favorable results. In my opinion one can issue assignments on research and one can say we are not satisfied with the drug or that serum, o* that which we have is not sufficient and suggest that these things be impr**** but much cannot be done centrally. A research worker, who receives such a suggestion, will first have to try for himself the methods which he will to come to a result. Perhaps he will take two or three wrong paths, which not lead to the goal. In my opinion this example shows even to a layman t** research cannot be bridled in this form but must have a certain freedom.
Q. Will you please tell us under the rest of the regulations, especially under III, what differences there are as against the regulations of 1942?
A. No. 1 was contained in 1942 according to the same sense and perhaps under the same wording. No. 2 is new, completely new. No. 3 was contain in part in a similar form in the regulation of 1942, regarding the restriction power of inspection. I believe that this was expressed in a similar form with the same restriction in 1942, but it is quite new that the Chief of Wehrmacht Medical Service is to have the authority to issue orders on the spot in the field of medical service if these are necessary for the reme** of an emergency and do not disagree with fundamental orders of the branch of the Wehrmacht, that is also any power to issue orders on the spot. A**** this right of inspection I must say that in my opinion it is very limited cause one must first ask the branches of the Wehrmacht if he can go there, He had no power to issue orders, no power of supervision and such inspection trips could only have been for the purpose of personal observation and, no doubt, this was to be adjusted by this new sentence, which I have quoted an which in itself contains two such strong limitations which I would not have enjoyed as Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service inspecting a branch of the Wehrmacht.
