A Yes.
Q I am now asking you, Witness, you remember perhaps that in dealing with these sea-water experiments, the Prosecution has referred to the strange notices with regard to the distribution; that is to say, there still had to be a certain connection with the Ruff Institute to these sea-water experiments. Dr. Ruff will confirm in the course of his examination that this document had never been presented to him at an earlier period of time. Now, Doctor, how do you explain the fact that the Institute of Dr. Ruff is listed here at the end of the distribution, although no referent from his institute participated in the meetings and his institute did not have anything whatsoever to do with these experiments?
A I cannot quite understand the claim by the Prosecution if I read through the list of the distribution here correctly. However, since I know the agency I must make the following statement: This report was not worked on by a medical agency, it was handled by a technical agency. It was recorded and worked on there, and it was presented there, and if I see now who received the information copy of it, then I could not help but gain the impression that this was done according to certain schemes because the technicians here, at least, or the technical agencies with which they were usually in contact because not only the Institute for Aviation Medicine does not play any part here at all but just is interested as the testing station directly in the medical experimentation, and its Experimentation Department at Jueterbog which has also been listed here. These three agencies which I have just mentioned do not have anything whatsoever to do with the matter and it could have been only listed here by people who worked on this matter, and who were not acquainted with the connections at all.
Q Witness, if you will take another look at the distribution, which would perhaps give rise to the assumption that,in the distribution, the Institute for Aviation Medicine, that is, the Institute of Dr. Ruff, was included for the reason that it was mistaken for the Institute of Professor Struckholdt, which has a similar name?
A Yes, this probability exists because the institute which was interested in this question has not been listed; that is, this possibility had to be considered, that a mistake was made here. The correct institute has n** been listed in the distribution.
Q Although, under Article 14, a representative from that institute, that is, the Institute of Professor Struckholdt has been named as attending A (Interposing) Yes, and by all this institute was the one which had done part of the work, and that is why the referent Dr. Schaefer attended.
Q Witness, I still have another question. In the course of the trial, in an earlier period of time, you knew the defendant Dr. Ruff had carried ou* experiments with a low pressure chamber in 1942 -- the purpose of these experiments is, as you know, to rescue aircraft, to rescue aircraft personnel from high altitudes. In 1942, you were not the Medical Inspector?
A No.
Q And, therefore, you are not responsible for the experiments which were carried out at that time; therefore, I am the more interested to hear f** you if such high altitude experiments with the low pressure chamber were absolutely necessary for our Luftwaffe in the year 1942 or were these experiments superfluous?
A These experiments were very important, and I am speaking of this from my experience as Fleet Medical Officer, where these questions were discussed rather frequently, and that no fighter planes were flying at altitudes with which the ones we have been used to. I can remember quite a few discussions about this question of our flight engineers, and with regard to how the technicians would solve their experiences, and I can remember I used these experiences rather frequently. The technique is one that placed new problem upon us. At that time, I knew just as little as our flight engineer when these experiments were carried out, but these experiments were necessary and we were interested in them and we considered them necessary.
Q Witness, can you tell us anything about the personality of Dr. Ruff in his capacity as a scientist. Now, that Dr. Ruff was subordinated in some respects to your Medical Inspectorate, and I am particularly interested in the question: Is it correct that Dr. Ruff, at that tine, was generally Known as a scientist who was conscientious and particularly careful in carrying out his experiments, and who furthermore had the reputation that he carried out almost all experiments on himself. Can you tell us anything about that?
A. Yes. At this time I would like very much to give a judgment of Ruff; and I can probably give it with the necessary objectivity because I have known Ruff since 1936, or it may have been since 1937. When I at the time was chief of the staff of the inspectorate, Ruff then drew my particular attention because he was not only a physician but he was also captain of a flight, and flying captain in Germany meant a high achievement in aviation. It was not a name which everybody could have who had ever passed his flight training, but it was a title which was given as a result of special achievements in aviation.
For us, this was a very favorable matter. Ruff was the only physician at our disposal who was flight captain. We had a large number of other medical officers who were aircraft pilots. But we had only Ruff with this great aviation experience. This fact shows more than words that somebody who is so experienced in aviation and who has achieved so much there is naturally the person to carry out these experiments on himself because he fulfills the technical prerequisites for it. This we also knew; and also on the part of my agency they always referred to the fact that medical experiments which required special aviation experience could only be carried out with Ruff and by Ruff. He did not hesitate to carry out these experiments at all times.
Furthermore, Ruff at that time was a relatively young physician. However, he had an outstanding aviation physiological medical basis; and during his very young years he had understood it in this big institute for aviation research where probably our best and most experienced experts of aviation technique were working together to obtain an absolutely authoritative position for their own sectors. For us, Ruff with his work was the counter balance to the Aviation Medical Research Institute, the institute which on the basis of its laboratory organization was able to carry out this kind of work and which usually established prerequisites for Ruff's work; and this could now be completed by Ruff and his practical work.
Ruff was a man who basically carried out experiments on himself only; and only when he believed that he had obtained enough security did he then include his closer collaborators into his experimental circle. It is also characteristic of the work done by the institute that there were very few transfers of assistants. Once a person had become an assistant with Ruff, then he did not want to leave there anymore. It was a research community based on such loyalty and comradeship that men were inseparably connected with their research and their chief.
DR. SAUTER: May it please the Tribunal, I do not have any further questions to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess.
( A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
EXAMINATION BY DR. WILLE: (Counsel for Professor Weltz): May I be permitted to put a few questions to the witness, Professor Schroeder? You were discussing previously with Dr. Sauter the Aviation Medical Institute of Adlershof and you were answering a few questions. The leader of that Institute was Dr. Ruff. My question is, do you know the Aviation Medical Institute of Munich that was leaded by Professor Weltz? Do you know it from your activity?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know how it is comparable to the Institute in Adlershof or what differences there were?
A. Yes. There was a very great difference. The Institute at Adlershof was attached to technicalities and, therefore, in its research work had to adapt itself to the needs of technicians. The Institute of Professor Weltz when it originated, I think that was in 1935 or 36, was attached to the Physiological Institute of the University of Munich, and because of this difference there resulted a difference in the tasks. The Institute in Munich dealt mainly basical research work, research work which animated from work in physiology.
Q. As I assume, you probably know the scientific work of the Munich Institute and I should like to put a question to you and I am sure you can answer on behalf of your activity at that time. How was his work evaluated scientifically? Was it recognized?
A. From the Institute of Munich a number of theses were worked in the very young field of Aviation Medicine at that time. I remember to work before the war about the change of the blood distribution in the body when accelerated and works of that nature were carried on at that time. This was basical physiological work which originated with that Institute.
Q. So, one could will say that the activity of Professor Woltz was important and, from your point of view, would it be saying too much that Professor Weltz, in a certain sense, was the discoverer of the cold problem and I must tell you how I arrived at that assumption. Professor Weltz was attached to the Aviation Medical Institute as an observer and he was near the channel at the time and observed the catastrophes that resulted from flyers who drowned in the channel who were rescued and died from cold. It was found how important it was to find out methods to prevent death from cold. I should like to ask, is this result of Professor Woltz one of the first in the field?
A. Yes. That is correct. During the Western campaign the fields of tasks of the various Air Fleets, two and three, during that time I had certa in connections about it as I spoke yesterday, and similar experiences were made within Air Fleet No. 3 - the Fleet which covered the French part of the coast.
When we left that territory Air Fleet No. 3 to which Weltz belonged at that time took over the entire coast from Holland up to Spain. Consequently, I had sufficient opportunity to remain in contact with these questions and I remember some later discussions in my agency. I was told that the first discussions about the systematical treatment of cold damages were begun by the Institution of Professor Weltz, I think in 1942.
Q. Do you what organization of the Wehrmacht sponsored and took over this discussion of Professor Weltz and used it for their own purposes. In order to make this question more clearly: Do you know that a certain notice was distributed, the subject of which was this statement of Weltz and therapeutical methods to be employee?
A. I cannot say that. I think among the regulations issued by the Army one such notice was distributed, but I cannot say any more definitely.
Q. I am sure you probably didn't know the exact connection. Now, can I say with right, that is, a certain of the research work when he tried to clarify this problem was with animals? Do you know he only carried out experiments with animals?
A. Yes he did that. He performed these experiments on little animals, up to the pig and comparisons can be made of changes with the pig with human physiology.
Q. Do you know that Professor Weltz at a later date receive a research assignment in the field of cold? Also, that this research assignment was never actually carried out? Did you ever hear about that? Do you know anything about that?
A. I assume that since he was an animal expert he probably continued with these experiments.
Q. You probably cannot say that with certainty since it was before your time. Do you know Professor Weltz in his capacity as an x-ray specialist?
A. Yes.
356O
Q. You know that he is an x-ray specialist for many scientific works. Do you know he was the leader of the x-ray Congress in Munich in 1938?
A. Weltz was one of the leading x-ray specialist. The Congress of 1938 in Munich is very much in my memory since I was present there myself and I believe this was the very first opportunity where I started to get into closer contact with Weltz.
Q. I have no further questions.
EXAMINATION BY DR. STEINBAUER (Counsel for the defendant Beiglbeck:)
Q. Witness, you were speaking about the consulting physicians. My question is - is a consulting physician in a superior positions regards departmental physicians in a hospital?
A. Do you mean consulting physician?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, he is.
Q. The Indictment maintains that Dr. Beiglbeck was a consulting physician of the Air Force. Is that correct, or is it not?
A. No. He was considered as such but as I remember now that was never executed so the designation in the Indictment, namely consulting physician of the Air Force, is erroneous.
Q. According to your knowledge, did Dr. Beiglboeck ever attend meeting of the consulting physicians?
A. No, I cannot say that. I was only present in 1944 during that meeting and I know that he did not attend then. I would not assume that he took part in the other meetings since merely because of special consideration only consulting physicians were assigned.
Q. Was Dr. Beiglboeck ever invited to participate in any of the discussions about sea water experiments?
A. No.
Q. Did he receive any decision about the experiments whether they were to be carried through and how they were to be planned?
A. The arrangement and design of the experiment was communicated to him as it was established by Eppinger, Becker-Freyseng.
Q. Was it provided that the execution of the experiments was to be controlled in Dachau by Eppinger and others?
A. As far as I remember, even Eppinger himself initiated the idea in order to inform himself about the development of the experiments.
Q. Was the name Dr. Beiglboeck already mentioned in Himmler's letter; that is, before Beiglboeck knew about his being assigned for that purpose?
A. Yes, that is to be assumed. It is to be assumed that Beiglboeck, when the letter was sent off, did not know anything about the assignment, for his name had been mentioned by his chief, Eppinger, on the basis of his education and training with the Eppinger Clinic. He was the man who was particularly capable for that purpose and he was, therefore, suggested by Eppinger, and it is quite possible that when he was mentioned in the letter he had no knowledge about it.
Q. Is it correct that Grawitz assured you of the voluntary nature of the subjects?
A. Yes.
Q. Was Dr. Beiglboeck informed by you in the same sense?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the SS approach you when selecting the physicians who were to participate in the experiments, and were you told to consider political points of view?
A. No.
Q. Was any supervision carried out by the Gestapo in that direction?
A. No.
Q. Was Dr. Beiglboeck informed to the effect that the experiments were to be carried out in the Air Force Hospital at Braunschweig?
A. Yes.
Q. Was Dr. Beiglboeck at that time in Braunschweig himself?
A. No. At that time he was not in the hospital of Braunschweig any longer.
Q. What position did he hold while he was working at Braunschweig?
A. At that time he was attached to the Internal Department.
Q. Was he in a leading position or was he in a subordinate position?
A. He was not in a leading position.
DR. STEINBAUER: Thank you.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q. Pelckmann, counsel for the defendant Schaefer. Witness, you were saying that you saw Schaefer for the first time when he presented his means through which to make sea water potable.
A. Yes.
Q. How often did you see him altogether?
A. Perhaps two or three times.
DR. PELCKMANN: Thank you.
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, you testified this morning concerning recommendations which you might make for a promotion of certain of your staff. Through what channels and to whom would such a recommendation go if you made one?
A. Promotions of officers were dealt with according to the rank of the officer either by the Commander in Chief of the Air Force - that was the case from any general's rank up - or they were dealt with by the Fuehrer of the German Reich.
Proposals and suggestions for that purpose had to include the reason given by the competent chief; that is to say, I made these suggestions and they were then sent to the personnel office of the Air Force, where all the suggestions came in from various fields and from there, in turn, they were prepared for presentation to the Commander in Chief or the chief of the government.
Q. Your recommendation then for promotion of one of your subordinates would after being processed by the Personnel Division go directly to the Commander in Chief of the Luftwaffe, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You testified yesterday that you heard that human experiments had been performed on human beings in concentration camps. When and where did you hear that, and from whom?
A. I heard that when preparing the sea water experiments when difficulties occurred in the institutes belonging to the Luftwaffe to start these experiments as it was originally intended.
Q. When was that, witness?
A. May, 1944.
Q. And where was that, did you say?
A. That was in my agency.
Q. And who told you?
A. Becker-Freyseng.
Q. And what did he tell you about these experiments?
A. He told me that my predecessor - I cannot repeat the word - approached the SS in the case of experiments which had become necessary and subsequently was informed by Holzloehner that experiments were being performed at the camp at Dachau.
Q. Were you then informed upon what persons these experiments were being performed?
A. No. I assume that Becker-Freyseng did not know any of these details.
EXAMINATION BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q. Witness, you made the answer a little while ago in answer to the question, "Do you know that Dr. Weltz carried out his experiments only with animals?", you answered, "Yes." Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know that?
A. Approximately at the time when I entered my office, and that was January 1944, I visited Professor Weltz in Munich who at that time was ill. I did that because I had to make a visit in Munich for other reasons anyway. The reason for my visit was only an ordinary visit to an ill colleague. During that opportunity Weltz was speaking about the work which his institute had performed during the last years, that is, during the time when I was absent from the Central Office. At that time he outlined his working program in a few words up to that period of time and emphasized that he was still continuing with the old line, namely, to continue basic research work and to further it wherever it was possible by experiments on animals. During that talk, which in itself was very short because Mr. Weltz had just come through a severe attack of scarlet fever, he told me these facts in a few words or sentences, and that is how I know something about it.
Q. What gave rise to the discussions; was there some controversy existing in German medical circles at that time concerning the question of whether or not there might be something ethically wrong with experimenting upon human beings?
A. This discussion didn't take place from that point of view; it was merely an information about the work performed in his institute.
Q. I understand, but you made some statement to the effect that Dr. Weltz said that he was sticking to the old method of experimentation and intended to further that line of experimentation, that is to say, with animals wherever he had an opportunity to do so. Now, I ask you this; Was there some question in German medical circles at the time about the propriety of experimentation with human subjects; or, was there some controversy at the time in medical circles about these matters?
A. With regard to the admissibility or necessity, or such questions regarding human experiments, no mention was made as to that on that occasion I had just come back from the front and was not at all acquainted with these lines of thought. I only started thinking on that line here in Nurnberg. I can even say, with certainty, that a discussion with reference to experiment on human beings didn't take place at all. I may bring the word "method" which you just mentioned into the right connection, that is, how it was used at that time; that is to say, his old method of basical research work that time he explained to me that the manner of work as it was carried on in his institute will still continue to be in line with basical research, and he wanted me, as his new chief, to give my confirmation with regard to the method and line that his institute was taking so he could maintain such work.
Q. At about the period when it was contemplated that your experiment would be conducted upon concentration camp inmates, did you know then what type or class of concentration camp Inmates were being held at Dachau?
A. No.
Q. Do you know what type of such inmates were being held there at any time during the period of the war?
A. I knew only about one; these were people who had been excelled from the Wehrmacht. In our regulations we received the necessary orders to what effect; that is to say, people who were repeatedly subject to punishment and who did not maintain the disciplinary orders of the troops and proven endangered it. I remember this fact exactly because at one time in my capacity as Fleet Physician, I read through all the orders to that effect. Since I held a rank at that time -- since I had an officer working with me at that time whom I had to warn because of his bad behavior that he may be sent to the police and then be sent to a concentration camp.
Q. Can you state by what process or writ such a man in the Luftwaffe would be placed in the concentration camp; would it be upon an order, by the commanding officer; or upon your order, upon a decree entered as a result of the court-martial; or a directive; just how did the nan get in there?
A. It was a prerequisite that this man had to have received repeated punishments; furthermore it was a prerequisite that the competent superior had to be convinced that this man by further punishment could not be corrected. Then, and this is something I personally experienced at one time, the competent disciplinary superior had to give this man a warning i**riting in which he told him that he had received a certain number of previous punishments; that his behavior and demeanor with the company was so bad that he was not worthy of continuing to be a soldier, and that at the next opportunity he became subject to punishment he would be sent to the police in order to be transferred to a concentration camp.
This had to be handed to that man and he had to sign it, the acknowledgment of this regulation. If such a case re-occurred, his disciplinary superior had to demand the transfer of this man to a camp giving a detailed reason. This letter had to be sent to the police, as it said in the regulations. The approval of such a transfer was then given by a superior who had the disciplinary authority of a commanding general. He had to confirm the fact and only then could he approve the transfer. That is how it was.
Q. Doctor, how many human subjects did you calculate or estimate would be necessary to fulfill and successfully carry out your experiments?
A. What were you talking about --- the sea water experiments?
Q. I am talking about the experiments which you said you had something to do with; the sea water experiment; and what experiments do you now say that were carried on at Dachau as a result of your instigation.
A. The sea water experiments.
Q. How many human subjects did you calculate or estimate would be necessary to successfully carry on and conclude these experiments?
A. According to the suggestion as it was made to me at that time there were forty.
Q. You estimated that would take forty subjects, forty human subjects.
A. Yes.
Q. Now then, at the time how many men from the Luftwaafe were incarcerated in the Dachau prison camp?
A. That I don't know.
Q. Do you know whether there were any?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know that?
A. I heard that on the basis of such transfers as they were demanded.
A. You heard it from whom?
A. During my activity as Fleet Physician, this came to my knowledge whenever any such case was a subject of discussion. Fortunately such a thing didn't occur frequently, but now and again there were some such events and such transfers had to be carried out, carried through. During conversations with our Chief Judge, who was the chief of justice within the Fleet, such questions were now and again discussed. I once asked Judge Schreiber how future development of this reassure was handled and he told me that as far as he pursued those cases he always found out that they had gone to Dachau, and this is how I realized how this was done.
Q. But you say that the case where you were obliged to take someone from the Luftwaffe and send them to Dachau occurred only very rarely; is that true?
A. Yes.
Q. How many such transfers were actually carried through to your knowledge?
A. That I don't know. I cannot tell you that under oath, but there nay have been a few dozen. I can only tell you that from the sphere of my activity as Air Fleet Physician because at the time I discussed these things with the chief judge. At that time during a period of three years, I think two dozen people were mentioned, but I in the year of 1944 was only concerned with questions from the air force, but the same regulation was applicable to the army and the navy; that is to say, those Wehrmacht regulations were handled in the same manner every where, so that the army probably had to transfer many more people than the people that came from our sphere.
Q. But aside from the fact that there were at Dachau these men who had been taken from the Luftwaffe, the army and the navy, you had no idea that any other types of prisoners were at Dachau?
A. No, I can say that very honestly here under oath, namely, that I didn't know that any other non-German people were there. I heard that people from civil justice was sent there who made themselves subject to punishment.
Q. But at that time you had no idea of the number of inmates at Dachau either as German political or criminal prisoners or as men who had been sent there for delinquencies in the Wehrmacht or non-German nationals?
A. No, I heard nothing at all about non-German people. I considered them all to be German prisoners.
Q. Did you have any idea at the time of the size of the Dachau Concentration Camp or of the facilities there for housing the prisoners?
A. No, I saw Dachau for the first time when I was sent there myself as a prisoner.
Q. Can you tell the Tribunal after these salt-water experiments were approved who actually requisitioned the persons who were to become the human subjects of the experiment?
A. No. The request went to the Chief of the German Police through my letter to the Reichs Minister of Interior. How this was done in the inter-office communications of the Reichs Minister of the Interior, I don't know, because this was another Reichs agency who, in their own competency, had to settle this question.
Q. Do you know when the Dachau camp was first established as a camp or prison for, oh, either German political or criminal prisoners or non-German prisoners of any kind?
A. I cannot say when it was first instituted for the very first time. I gained, knowledge of it as a camp in the year of 1937 or 1938 when the case of Pastor Niemceller came up. At that time I heard from circles who were acquainted with Pastor Niemoeller that he, after the proceedings against him, was sent to the camp at Dachau. At that opportunity I for the first time consciously heard the name of Dachau.
Q. Well, did you gain any impression at that time about what kind of camp it was? What it's purpose was?
A. No.
Q. I believe that you made some statement to the effect that the arrangement and design of the experiment in which the defendant Beiglboeck was to take part was communicated to him; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. By whom was it communicated?
A. Beiglboeck at that time was ordered to Berlin to come to my agency. Then he went at first to Becker-Freyseng who greeted him shortly and perhaps already told him some details. Then he came to me together with Becker-Freyseng and rejected. I greeted him and I told him that we had considered him as the leading person in charge of this experiment since his chief during his civil activities, Prof. Eppinger, had suggested him because of his pre-education, experience and personality and that he was deemed especially capable to conduct and lead this series of experiments.
Q. In your letter, witness, to the Minister of the Interior concerning these experiments, what did you say to him?
A. After an introductory sentence which was to convey certain connections with some assistance demanded further on where I said something like this: