"You, Reichs Minister, at former occasions gave opportunity to the Luftwaffe to carry out experiments which were urgent and again I am before a decision which demands of me to request you to make it possible for me to carry on an experiment at a camp." End quote. Something like that. And then a discussion followed what was intended by us, where the purpose of the experiment laid and, furthermore, that we ourselves in a small frame had performed these experiments on our own personnel and that we were now looking for some results by trying a large number of experimental subject and we wanted to decide which one of the two methods would be the most expedient for the needs.
Q You said that in your letter to the Minister of the Interior you made some reference to former occasions upon which experiments had been conducted. What did you mean by that witness? What were the former occasions?
A This was the result of the cold experiments of which we had been informed; cold experiments that were conducted by Holzloehner.
Q Do you know, witness, or when did you find out that there were concentration camps in Germany in which non-German nationals were kept or restrained?
A I only learned that during my imprisonment after the collapse. I can repeat here once more; up until the time of the collapse I knew of two concentration camps. One was at Oranienburg. Every man resident in Berlin knew that. That was nothing. The second one as I already mentioned, was Dachau. Whatever went beyond that -- whatever existed in Germany beyond that, I only learned after the collapse. I believe that this can be made a little more credible by the following -- it seems almost like a fairy tale if someone says something like that today. Up until September 1943 I wasn't in Germany at all and when afterwards I was sent to Berlin as a Medical Chief I had no opportunity at all to receive any insight into these affairs.
Q I would assume that the German military system, as most others do, have two places of confinement for soldiers who have offended against the law. One is called generally a disciplinary barracks for less serious offenses and another is the penitentiary or prison for more serious offenders. If a soldier committed an offense and was convicted of the offense which called for a sentence of death, where would he be sent for confinement until the sentence of death could be executed?
A There were so-called Wehrmacht prisons in which there were only prisoners of all of the three Wehrmacht branches. I remember one such name as the Wehrmacht prison at Germersheim. I think there was another prison by I don't know its name. I can't remember its name. As we learned from the regulation sheets such prisoners were selected for labor and sent to the concentration camps in order to work there in armament work for the war effort and they mention one thing. Mr. President; in the Wehrmacht there were two forms of punishment. One was the so-called disciplinary punishment which was not in the hands of the judges but in the hands of the military superior, who was authorized to do that. For instance, there was the disciplinary authority of the company commander or the regimental commander, division or corps commander. These authorities include reprimands and also punishment which deprived people of their liberty up to four weeks arrest. This was not called imprisonment but was called arrest. These authorities of disciplinary punishment was to prevent every little detail being dealt with by courts.
Punishment by court only started in the case of a certain severe act and which could only be judged by judges. That is something that you have to differentiate in the Wehrmacht Penal Regulations -- the disciplinary and the juridical punishment.
Q I understand that very well, That was what I mentioned in my question, but would a German member of the Armed Forces who had committed murder or some crime for which he was sentenced to death -- would he be sent to a prison or simply to a concentration camp? Would he be put to work in a concentration camp when he was under sentence of death for murder?
A Mr. President, you are asking me too much. I don't know these smaller details. I couldn't tell with certainty how these matters were conducted.
Q Witness, you have detailed at some length the manner and official channels through which you passed in order to get your seawater experiments approved and human subjects in concentration camps made available for the experiments. Now, then, in proceeding in the manner that you did, did you consider that you followed official military procedure as you then understood it?
A Excuse me. I didn't quite understand the translation. I understood the first part. Would you repeat the second part?
Q In proceeding in this manner to have your experiments approved, did you consider that you went through official channels and followed official military procedure, as you understood official channels and military procedure at the time? Did you understand my question?
A I don't know whether I quite understood what you were saying. Will you please repeat the question?
Q Are the translation channels open?
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
Q You have told the Tribunal what you did and the official channels--military channels-- through which you passed in getting your sea-water experiments approved, and men, prisoners in the concentration camp, made available to you for the experiments.
Is that true?
A Yes.
Q Now then, in following the procedure that you followed, was that accordance with military procedure for getting such matters approved?
AA military procedure did not exist for that purpose. I had to see how I could safeguard the execution of the experiments in the most expedient manner and under the consideration of all prerequisites which are necessary for the health and other questions.
Q The reason I asked the question is this: let us assume that the proof shows that other experiments in the field of special research were carried out for the purpose of determining important medical problems that existed during the war. Would the general procedure that you followed in getting your sea-water experiments approved and material made available for experiments -- would that be the ordinary procedure that would be followed by some of these other gentlemen who had fields of special research in the Wehrmacht or in the Armed Forces or in the Navy? Do you have any idea?
A. I assume so. I can't imagine any other possibility.
Q. In other words, it would be impossible within the framework of the German Wehrmacht as well as it would be impossible in the framework of any other organization, to determine that concentration camp inmates would be made available in certain numbers, to determine where the laboratories for such purpose would be established, to determine where these concentration camp inmates would come from, to determine how they would be taken from the camp to the seat of the laboratory and to determine how they would be treated and to determine what founds should be made available for that research -- that would be impossible without the matter being taken up through the channels in virtually the manner in which you proceeded in taking up your experiment, wouldn't it?
A. Well, yes, as far as I understand you.
Q. Yes. Could you suggest any other way that a project that needed all of these things could be approved and all of the material and the laboratory and the human subjects be brought together without some sort of official procedure -- through official channels by which these things would be approved, the appropriated and the material allocated? There would be no other way to do, would it, defendant?
A. No, I believe that it can be explained very simply.
Q. Well, will you explain?
A. The situation itself helps along the solution of such a problem.
Q. But there must be a great many agencies who naturally would gain knowledge of an approved experiment; wouldn't there be an order to have that experiment put into execution? For example, if there was a particular type of special research, that special research first would be suggested by someone who thought that research necessary, would it not?
A. Yes.
Q. Then the problem of where to conduct that special research would considered by someone and approved by someone wouldn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Then would there not arise the question of financing or making the fund available for the research and in that particular some other governmental agency would have to know about the matter so that they could make the funds available; isn't that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Then it would have to be determined that certain individuals from concentration camps would be made available?
A. Yes.
Q. That fact would have to become know to someone within the framework of the German Government who had something to do with concentration camp inmates, wouldn't it?
A. Yes. It wouldn't be possible otherwise.
Q. Then someone who had held the authority or the responsibility or the discretion to select certain individuals would have to make that selection, wouldn't they?
A. Yes, that would come within the sphere of the Minister of the Interior.
Q. Yes. Then let us assume that these concentration camp inmates were at Buchenwald and the laboratory was at Dachau, someone would have to ......
be responsible for transporting those concentration camp inmates from Buchenwald to Dachau, wouldn't they?
A Yes, that would be an inter-office affair of the Minister of the Interior.
Q And someone would have to supply the motor trucks or the railroad cars and furnish the fuel for implementing the railroad cars or motor trucks to get the people over there. Isn't that the procedure through which it would follow?
A Yes.
Q In other words, a problem or task of this kind could not possibly occur without the whole matter passing through channels and virtually everyone who came in contact with that experiment officially from top to bottom would have a knowledge of it. Isn't that true? Either the person himself have knowledge of it or his agency or department? Wouldn't that necessarily follow because all of those matters would be detailed in official reports or requests, would it not?
A Well, but that would have been an inter-office arrangement within the sphere of the central agency which was responsible for the camp, that is, the Chief of the German Police, for instance.
Q I understand that but there would have to be, in the German Army as well as in any other Army, records kept and details approved and all of that sort of thing, in detailed order. Is that not true?
A Yes. If I may explain it, giving myself as an example. At that time I sent the letter say, at first, I sent it only away after I had consulted the possibility of the experiment with Grawitz. And after I had informed him how the whole thing was brought by us so that he could pass on this information to Himmler in case it became necessary. Then this letter was sent off and after possibly four weeks when Beiglboeck had arrived at Dachau --in the meantime he was given an opportunity to carry out this work. Whatever lay in between that, how in the administrative way this was organized, we never learned that as I just said, it was an inter-office affair of this authority. We only saw the initial point and the end point of this route.
MR. PRESIDENT: As the Tribunal desires to propound some more questions to the witness, the witness in this case will be put under the rule and not permitted to consult with other defendants or with his counsel during the noon recess. That rule will be followed only when it is directly requested by the Tribunal and it is requested in this case. The Tribunal will be recessed until a quarter before two o'clock.
(A recess was taken)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The Tribunal reconvened at 1345 hours, 26 February 1947.)
OSKAR SCHROEDER - Resumed THE PRESIDENT:
The Tribunal has no further questions to propound to the witness. Does defense counsel have any further question of the witness?
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. MARX:
Q Witness, in the course of the examination by the Honorable Judges you made a statement as to the unfitness of persons to serve in the Armed Forces. Do you have enough knowledge of the subject in order to give your opinion on that subject?
A I did not understand your question correctly.
Q I am asking you if you had enough knowledge of the subject in order to be able to answer such a question about the unfitness of persons to serve in the military forces.
A The unfitness of such persons to serve in the Armed Forces?
Q Yes, under what prerequisite was a member of the Armed Forced declared as unfit to serve?
A That was a decision which had to be made by a court or a judge.
Q Therefore, a verdict had to be given by a military court or courtmartial?
A Yes. However, this was based on evidence which had been presented by the superior officers.
Q Yes, but a member of the Armed Forces could not be declared as unfit to serve unless a verdict had been given by a court-martial.
A Yes, that is correct. And in order to do this the disciplinary superior officer had his judge who advised him on these matters, yes.
Q And a further prerequisite was that he had been sentenced to a ter** in jail or some other dishonorable punishment?
A Yes.
Q Like, for example, death punishment for desertion or because of rape, robbery or similar crimes?
A Yes.
DR. MARX: I do not have any further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: With no further examination by defense counsel the prosecution may proceed.
DR. MARX: May it please the Tribunal, I request the permiss of the Tribunal to now call as my first witness, the witness Jentsch because this witness has to leave this afternoon on a trip to England. The prosecution has no objection for my calling the witness at this time.
THE PRESIDENT: The marshal will summon the witness Jentsch and the witness Schroeder is temporarily excused from the stand and will resume his place in the dock.
(The witness was excused temporarily.)
THE PRESIDENT: I would advise counsel that during the ***, recess I made some inquiry concerning the witness Grodl and was informed that every effort is being made to procure the attendance of that witness at the earliest possible date.
WERNER JENTSCH, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q Please raise your right hand and be sworn, repeating after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. MARX:
Q Witness, would you please give us your first and your family name.
A. My name is Werner Jentsch.
Q When and where were you born?
A I was born on the 3rd of April 1913 at Chemnitz.
Q And where is your present residence?
A I am living presently at Cassel.
Q And what is your profession?
A I am a Protestant priest and Licensiat.
Q What activity are you engaged in at present?
AAt present I have the office of Director of the YMCA college at Cassel, that is, in German, the Youth Secretary School at Cassel. I am now traveling to England as German Director for War Prisoners' Aid.
Q What kind of an organization is that?
A That is the aid for prisoners of war of the Christian Youth Movement which is sponsored for all German prisoners of war by the International League at Geneva.
Q Witness, will you please tell us in your own words, and give the Tribunal a short sketch of, your life history and also tell the Tribunal about your political attitude.
A I studied theology at Leipzig and Berlin and I passed the state examination at the University of Leipzig. First of all I was a priest for the youth in central and southern Germany and I was director of the YMCA college at Berlin. At the outbreak of the war I became an army chaplain, I became a chaplan for the Luftwaffe units at Berlin. Actually, the Luftwaffe did not have its own ministers and I was an army chaplain. However, I was used as minister for the Luftwaffe for the civic commander. When Himmler was able to develop his power in the OKH I lost my office in 1943.
I was conscripted as a simple soldier and I was medical soldier with the parachute troops. After the collapse I was used by the Americans and the English in Italy as senior chaplain for entire Italy and as liaison man for the British and the Americans for the German prisoners of war in the Mediterranean area. In this capacity I was responsible for the reeducation and denazification of the German prisoners of war in Italy. As a result of this, I was given the opportunity to perform some work which I was unable to attain during the period of the Third Reich. To the contrary, during the regime of the Third Reich I was confronted with many difficulties.
When Pastor Niemoeller was arrested in 1937, I, as a confessional minister of the Lutheran Church, participated in this work and I was also arrested. As a result of my activity on behalf of the YMCA I was expelled from Danzig and from 1934 my activities were watched by the Gestapo and I was given a special court trial by the Gestapo.
Then, in 1943, I lost my office because Himmler wanted to prevent my influence on the Luftwaffe. In the course of my activity, which I had to carry out in the Third Reich, I was only assisted by very few Germans. At the time I became acquainted with General Schroeder, at man who did not hesitate to help me.
Q. Witness, when and on what occasion did you make the acquaintance of Dr. Schroeder?
A. That was at the very beginning of the outbreak of the war. He was the father of one of my students and one day he called me and asked me to hold the Christmas ceremony at the Reich Sports Field in Berlin, of the Luftwaffe. He maintained the point of view that a Christmas celebration for soldiers could only be hold in the presence of a minister and with a clear concession to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
This gave me the possibility for the first time to be heard and to speak before the men and women of the Third Reich in a larger circle, which were taking particular care of that hospital at that time. Therefore they were especially kind because the Luftwaffe usually refused any special aid in that respect.
It was on that occasion that I made the acquaintance of Professor Schroeder.
Q. Did not this attitude of Professor Schroeder on that occasion have a certain risk connected with it for him?
A. It was connected with a risk for him because official spiritual welfare for soldiers of the Luftwaffe had not been planned for in Berlin. Thus, as an officer he gave an example and he maintained an attitude which was contrary to the official attitude of higher officers in the Luftwaffe
Q. What were your further contacts with Professor Schroeder?
A. On the basis of this Christmas celebration at the hospital I requested Professor Schroeder to let us carry out the spiritual welfare in all Luftwaffe hospitals in the vicinity of Berlin. Through a special decree I received the permission to hold a service every week and also to have a discussion with the wounded medical officers, non-commissioned officers, and soldiers.
His son Hans was one of my confirmation students and he was one of the best students there. After having been confirmed, he became the director of a small group of boys and girls who, in spite of the prohibition against the Protestant youth, assembled once weekly. Professor Schroeder permitted us to hold the meetings of this group in his house.
Then, in the official position which I occupied, he helped me in many forms. For example, he helped me in obtaining negotiations and discussions which I had to engage in with loading men of the Luftwaffe in order to guarantee that I could take care of the spiritual welfare of the Luftwaffe personnel in Berlin. Then, he also personally frequently intervened in the work which I had to do with the prison in Berlin. When a member of the medical sector had been accused, and when I believed that he was being unjustly sentenced, then I was entitled to report to him directly about the matter.
Q. Witness, you spoke of the time until Professor Schroeder was transferred as Air Fleet physician, that is, when he was at Berlin, Now I con* to the time when he was Fleet Medical Officer with Air Fleet 2. Were you again in touch with him from that time on?
A. Even during this period I had contact with him. He also helped me in my work, which was not very easy, from Italy. At the time I was the sil** liaison man of the Confessional Church to the agencies which were kindly disposed towards us at that time in the Wehrmacht. My spiritual advisor was the Minister von Bodelschwingh, who has died in the meantime.
During the time when Professor Schroeder was in Italy, I tried to start a main office for spiritual welfare of the Luftwaffe. However, all my attempts failed in the beginning. Since General Bodenschatz, who had become the contact person with Goering, had intervened on his part, and he was kindly disposed towards me, I took a new opportunity in order to again start discussing the question of spiritual welfare in the Luftwaffe.
The predecessor of Professor Schroeder, Professor Hippke, and General von Hase, who was later on hung by order of Hitler, and the civilian adjutant of Goering, Ministerial Director Boettge, and I, tried to formula A memorandum in which it was shown that the wounded and the dying in the hospitals of the Luftwaffe were in need of spiritual welfare by the Catholic, as well as by the Protestant Church. At the time a secret circular was directed to all chief medical officers of the Luftwaffe, and all air district medical officers, in order to discover the religious attitude of soldiers of the Luftwaffe. The result, which never became known in Germany, was that 65 percent of all hospital inmates requested, spiritual welfare. Among the statements of the persons who answered who individual questions, the questionnaire of Professor Schroeder was the most outstanding and the the most important. In very sharp and clear words he gave reasons, from the Italian theater of operations, that spiritual welfare for members of the Luftwaffe hospitals was necessary. At the the situation had deteriorate to such an extent that dead German soldiers in the hospitals, who were Protestants, had to be buried by an Italian Catholic priest because no German Minister was available, and the soldiers in the Luftwaffe who had been ministers in their civilian professions were not allowed to engage in the civilian activity.
This happened during the time when Prof. Schroeder was in Italy, and the filling in and the handling of the questionnaires had been entrusted to me by Prof. Hippke. We were able to address a memorandum to the command in chief of the Luftwaffe, and the good examples which Prof. Schroeder gave about the prevailing situation assisted me at the time in formulating the memorandum in such a way that the only person who was at all kindly disp*** towards the question of Christianity -- and that was not a man, but a wo*** that was Mrs. Goering, at the time accepted this memorandum in order to present it to her husband. However this resulted in a complete failure, because Goering did not have very much authority any more in 1942 and therefore nothing changed. However, we did achieve success in one point, because several German medical officers of the Luftwaffe had the courage to state to the National Socialist regime that Christian spiritual welfare in the Wehrmacht was necessary. It became tolerated after a while that at the time when officially spiritual welfare on members of the Luftwaffe were prohibited -- such spiritual welfare could be given with the individual approval of several officers and that several soldiers now were able to spiritual welfare as ministers. Of course, they were not military chaplain but they were plain soldiers who had been ministers in civilian life.
That is sufficient for the time being, and while for the time being Prof. Schroeder was in Italy.
Q From April, 1943, you had been conscripted as a soldier in the medical service of the Luftwaffe. Was your contact to Prof. Schroeder interrupted as a result of this, or did you still have contact with him subsequently?
A When I lost my office in 1943 I had to be very careful, because was being watched by various sides. For example, I was prohibited from entering the office of the Reichsmarshall, and I could only under an assu* name, namely Johann II, have any contact at all with the officers of the Luftwaffe who were kindly disposed toward me, because, thank God, there were German officers who had more regard for Christianity than for the orders by the Gestapo. At that time I again got into contact with Prof.
Schroeder through a remarkable fact. I came to Saldorf near Berlin as a simple medical soldier. There I did the usual service and duty performed the rest of the soldiers there. I was just a simple soldier. One day I received a letter from the Reich Military Court. It was signed by the high prosecutor, by the Reichs Kriegs Attorney, General Staff Judge Krell. In this letter he requested me to immediately draft a memorandum in a certain matter, and in this case conscientious objectors were concerned who refuse to serve for religious reasons. This came about in the following manner: During my activity as military chaplain of Berlin I also cared for the military prisons which were located in Berlin. In these prisons there was contained a large number of so-called Jehovah's Witnesses. They also app* under the name "Jehovah's Witnesses.'' Amongst them there were also member of the Mennonites, of the Quakers, and there was one representative of the Protestant Church. At that time, together with my Catholic colleagues, was the only person entitled to visit these prisons. And because of the large number of prisoners confined there, we were unable to see all of t** However, those for whom I felt a particular sympathy were the Jehovah's Witnesses, because they did not have any rights at all. They were not given justice. While the Catholic priests, on the basic of their agreement with Rome, did not have to serve in the armed forces but could either go into the medical service of the Wehrmacht or they were not conscripted at all. But they, on their part, were not wiling to perform any military service. The Protestant objectors for religious reasons, and above all, the group of Jehovah's Witnesses, did not have any advantages whatsoever. On the contrary, they were sentenced to death by Hitler without any consideration whatsoever, although the legal situation was the same as that of my Catholic friends. At the time both my Catholic colleagues and I tried everything in order to help these people. In the Reich court there were also men who at that time occupied themselves particularly with this case, and if I am not mistaken, in the year 1942, on the occasion of a reception at the President of the Reich Military Court. Admiral Bastian and the Senior Reich Military Court Prosecutor, General Staff Judge Krell, I received the permission to draft a memorandum which was to be of help to the delinquents and which was to help them change their point of view, if possible.
The Reich Military Court was determined, thanks to the attitude of Bastian and Krell, who were kindly disposed towards Christianity, to postpone the execution of the sentences until such time when we ministers had been given an opportunity to give spiritual welfare for these men for a sufficient amount of time. If we had succeeded in changing the attitude of one of the delinquents, by virtue of the law which was in existence at that time, he was dismiss, from confinement and sent to the front. As a result of the fact that we were given the opportunity to work on these people, we were able to save large number of people from their death punishment, and we were able above all to care for the families which had gotten into terrible difficulties as a result of these series of murders. I had just begun with the manusc* that was with its duplicate form and also with the popular version for the delinquents themselves, and also as a religious psychological form for the representatives of the Reich Military Court, when my house, my library, my books were burned as a result of a British air attack. Ten days later also lost my office. I became a plain private in the army, who could not take it upon himself any more to contact as high an agency as the Reich Military Court. As I have stated, after the period of one year, that is, at the beginning of 1943, the General Staff Judge Krell addressed me with the request to once more make an application in matters pertaining to the conscientious objectors. He simply directed this letter to my address and it did not call for any particular attention, because he was the father one of my former religious students whom I had confirmed. He also request me in the letter to keep the matter secret. Then I got into a very great difficulty, because I was a private first class in the Luftwaffe. First of all, I should have seen my company commander, and then I should have r*o** ed the whole matter.
At the time, after a severe struggle with myself, I reached the decision to give all my confidence to a man who was willing to risk something for the sake of Christianity. The man whom I trusted was Osker Schroeder. At the time, I went to his agency by avoiding regular channels. I succeeded and I told him and his adjutant, Augustiniak about the whole matter.
At the time, Professor Schreoder told me he wanted to help me. On very same day I received an official room at Saalow. It was an officer's room. I was given a furlough for three months in order to draft his manuscript. Then I had the opportunity to work out the important manuscript in peace and quiet. It was a manuscript on whose success the lives of thousand of people depended. Neither Professor Schroeder nor I were conscientious objectors for religious reasons. He was an officer. And I had been a military chaplain for three years. However, we were human beings who respected the viewpoint of the conscientious objectors for religious reasons.
We wanted to help them within the framework of this manuscript. We, on our part, believed we were able to suggest that these conscientious objectors should be used as enlisted men in the medical service with parachute troops or that they should work with the Organization Todt in defense work. I particularly intervened in these two points for the reason that a large number of the people were prepared to do two things: They refused to handle any weapons, but they were willing to go to the front. Secondly, they did not want to give any religious oaths, but they, on their part, were willing to enter into an obligation. Hitler would have refused both ways. He actually did. We were unable to help them any more in this way. There was only one further way. That was the postponement of the execution of the sentences.
After the three months passed, I submitted the memorandum to the Reich Military Court. I then came as an enlisted man in the medical service to the parachute unit in Italy. In the summer of 1944, I requested a furlough in order to have this memorandum to the Reich Military court printed. My superior with the parachute unit at that time was again a medical officer of the Luftwaffe.
It was a friend of General Schroder. His name was Oberstabarzt Fischer. He gave me permission although he knew what the m*t* concerned.
Then in the days of 20 July or afterwards, I came to Germany. Gentlemen, you know what was going on in Germany at that time. I then had an attack of malaria and I was unable to move. Three of my friends were hung by Hitler. I administered welfare to all three families. I was the person who educated those boys. One was General von Hase, the City Commander of Berlin. The second was General Freygebel of the OKW. The third was General Thiele who was working at the same agency.
During this period of time, I also tried to get into contact with Professor Schroeder. At that time I was his subordinate. At that time, I was not a minister any more. At the time, he made it possible for me to again get into touch with Thorgau and also with Thiele, so that the memrandum could be printed. In the meantime, within the OKW the political situation had progressed to such a point that we were unable to have this memorandum printed without first obtaining official approval.
At the time, a copy was sent, for reference, to the Reich Military. Nobody was allowed to discuss the subject. The popular memorandum, on the other hand, was placed at the disposal of the delinquents. There were approximately 50 typewritten pages. In the course of a telephone conversation, I remember exactly, Professor Schroeder charged me with tho care the family of the City Commander Hase. General Hase was hung after the happenings of 20 July. He knew that we had the same convictions as he did I was the only person who, at that time, was in the technical position to help him.
My furlough came to an end. I did not have the time any more to take any action. Only now, after my return from Italy have I been able to again get in touch with the family. When I travelled to Italy again, Professor Schroeder gave me a special recommendation, that was with the Ambassador the Holy Seat, Baron von Weizaecker. There also, the case of the conscientious objectors was involved. Baron von Weizaecker was able, as a result of the information which I imparted to him, to intervene in this matter the Vatican.
I want to emphasize, particularly, that Baron von Weizaecker and I are both protestants. However, this was a matter which pertained to human in general. Confessions were not involved anymore, but these matters concerned everybody who was a Christian. As a result of this intervention, I* was possible for me to indirectly inform the Vatican. And at the time, Professor Schroeder, gave me the opportunity to do this. This was in the period while I was in Italy.
Q What general picture can you give of the personality and the character of Professor Schroeder?
A May it please the Tribunal, the usual place from which I speak is the pulpit, not the witness stand. The message which I have to give i* the pulpit is devoted to love and truth. Here the legal questions are involved. However, it is necessary in the case of emergency, for the minister to leave his pulpit and enter the witness box. Because otherwise whatever he says in the pulpit is neither love nor truth.
Professor Schroeder was a member of my community, my congregation. He helped me although he knew I was a confessional minister. He did this during a period of time when the entire confessional church was persecution I, myself, was confined to prison. I know, now, how he feels. I would not be able to look him in the eye if at this time I would not be ready to testify that to which my conscience obligates me. I know that this will cause me to become unpopular. The same truth is involved here as is involved in the pulpit. I am not a soldier and I am not a physician. I am minister and I hope to be a Christian. Only as such, can I say anything about Professor Schroeder. However, I am of the conviction that what has been stated about him in the indictment cannot be true. I cannot imagine that he would have anything to do with that. It would also be contrary to any inner moral logic. How can a man who on the one side helped the Jehovah's Witness's, persons who are politically persecuted and in whose exterminate the Third Reich had an interest, be interested in exterminating people in concentration camps?