Q Did you learn anything about it?
A Yes.
Q May I ask you what?
A I was told that the problem of making sea water drinkable was to be attacked, and then I heard that Dr. Schaefer had worked out a procedure and that this was another procedure according to Berker, which was being worked out. I was informed in general about the technical details, in conversation.
Q If it had been agreed that experiments were to be conducted with human subjects, where do you think they would have been carried out by Professor Schroeder?
A I know only that one day he talked to the Commanding Officer of the Medical Academy of the Luftwaffe. He established contact with him in order to have members of the Academy, that is, young medical students, for these experiments. It was not the first time that some such thing was done at the Academy. If I remember correctly, some years before, an experiment had been conducted with students; that is, with members of the Academy, or the effects of pervitin and, if I remember correctly, students were prevented from sleeping for 70 hours, by pervitin.
Q Then, Professor Schroeder's efforts would have been to have such experiments carried out in the Luftwaffe's own agencies?
A Yes; certainly.
Q It is no doubt your opinion that he would not lightly have considered any other possibility?
AAnd for what reason do you think that he would have called on his own institutions first?
Q The Academy would have been very suitable because of the human material, if I may say so, and I could not see why the experiments should not be carried out there.
Q Do you know that, in addition to this military medical academy, Where was a Luftwaffe hospital which was to be called upon?
A Yes; in Brunswick.
Q How do you know that?
A I can't say any more, but I do know it.
Q Did Schroeder tell you that himself or did you hear that from some other source?
A I don't remember, but I only know that something was said about the Luftwaffe hospital in Brunswick.
Q Would you believe that Professor Schroeder would have let any experience be carried out without having done everything in his power to make those experiments harmless for the subjects?
A Yes; I certainly believe so. Nothing else is possible in view of his inner attitude.
Q What was his attitude toward the SS? Was there any connection perhaps with Himmler?
A No; certainly not. That was always a rather sore point with him. He did not quite trust him.
A You might say it was something distasteful to him?
A Yes.
Q Well, that is what you can say in general, then?
A Yes.
DR. MARX: Then I have no further questions.
BY DR. TIPP:
Q Witness, how long have you know Dr. Becker-Freyseng?
A Since we were with the Medical Inspectorate, although we did study together, but we did not know each other.
Q Then your acquaintance dates from January 1944?
A Yes.
Q And you were with him until the end of the war?
A Until the 30th of April 1945.
Q. What was the position of Becker-Freyseng when you came to the Medical Inspectorate?
A. He was assistant technical expert in the department for aviation Medicine and under Professor Anthony.
Q. That was changed later?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. I think about the middle of May or about May 1944. Prof. Anthony was deferred for the Medical Polyclinic Rostock.
Q. And he left then?
A. Yes.
Q. Then Becker-Freyseng became his successor?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, witness, you were adjutant long enough and as you said, you, yourself, were a technical expert in the Medical Inspectorate. Will you please, from your point of view, describe the duties and the work of a technical expert?
A. Briefly, he, himself, had to prepare a procedure but he had no right to make a decision. He had to report to his section chief or to the Chief of Staff or to the Medical Chief for this purpose. It was necessary to obtain all the material on paper. The report to the section chief or to higher officers had to be absolutely complete. The matter had to be investigated to the point where one could answer questions and there could be no mistakes and no ignorance.
Q. And you say he prepared this and who decided what was to be done?
A. That depended on how important the matter was. The Section Chiefs had the right to decide but it is obvious that the section chiefs considered what responsibility they could take and what they would have to get from this Chief of Staff for a decision.
Q. Then, either the section chief and in more important cases the Chief of Staff decided all basic questions?
A. Yes.
Q. In this case the Medical referent did not make Medical decisions?
A. No, I had to get used to that. I admit in the beginning I did not find it easy to adjust to this position after having been more before and several times the Medical Chief pointed out to me that I had to keep to this attitude.
Q. Then, yourself experience how little the referent had say?
A. Yes. I had the personnel after me and sometimes, though, there were very unimportant transfers to be carried out --signing them without no risk and no responsibility. Sometimes the section chief might not be there and at the beginning I signed one or other letter but that was very quickly stopped.
Q. Then that was a general principle in the Medical Inspectorate?
A. Not always. I must correct myself. It was the principle, yes, but from Prof. Schroeder a referent never signed.
Q. I think we will come back this matter of the signature later. From your experience in the Medical Inspectorate or as adjutant, you knew the duties of Dr. Becker-Freyseng. I should like to clear up a question which was discussed yesterday, that is, the following: one of the co-defendants has assorted and the prosecutes has taken over this assertion that Dr. Becker-Freyseng was the only research adviser of the Medical Chief. I believe you can say something positive about that.
A. I must make a strict distinction between a consulting physician and our work as a technical referent. I should like to give an example.
If the Medical Chief for any reason needed a new special physician then he had me call to his office through the section chief or the Chief of Staff and he said he needed a new special physician for such and such a place. Who might be a candidate? When do you have? The Medical Chief says 'perhaps this man or that man.' I had a different opinion because I had different information. I was able to express my opinion and I did so. I was able to advance him who might be considered from the position. To that extent I was his only or one of the advisors about matters concerning officers but I wasn't a consulting physician.
Q. And you believed that it was the same in the case of Dr. Becker-Freyseng?
A. Yes, the same in the case of all of the other doctors. Everyone was able to report his experience in his specialized feild and in this way could advise. To come back to my example; no one can remember everything. I worked on only a small part of the officer's files and the active officers -- there were about 550 and the specialists, that was about a thousand. That was 1500 ***** which one had to use in some form or other. The referent might possibly be able to remember that of there were 25 referents; the Medical Chief could know about each department only in general outlines.
The details the referent has to remember and report.
Q Then, if I may sum it up, in technical questions the referent was an advisor. To give an example, if the Medical Chief wanted some question cleared up, for example, the question of high-altitude research, he calls the referent Dr. Becker-Freyseng and he says 'Who might be considered for that?'
A Yes.
Q And then Dr. Becker-Freyseng mentioned the specialist and call him and then this specialist conducts the actual specialized research?
A Yes.
Q And technical advice on technical things?
A He had consulting physicians for aviation medicine.
Q Now, do you know who was the consulting physician for aviation medicine?
A Yes, that was Prof. Dr. Struckholdt, Prof. Rein and Oberregierungsrat Benzinger.
Q Then, one might call them the advisors of the Medical Chief for aviation medicine?
A Yes, that's what they were.
Q Now, witness, Becker-Freyseng is called the Research Advisor. *** you perhaps tell us who were the actual advisors in other questions in the field of internal medicine, for example?
A Internal medicine? Prof,Kalk, surgery Prof. Toennies. Then else was there?
Q Do you know anything about hygiene?
A Hygiene? Prof. Rose.
Q Very well, I think that question is settled. Now I will go on to something else. Witness, Dr. Becker-Freyseng is held responsible for all experiments carried out in aviation medicine on the basis of his position in the Luftwaffe from 1941 on. I know, of course, and the Tribunal knows that you were there in the Medical Inspectorate only from 1944 on but you said that Prof.
Anthony was still referent at your time and Becker-Freyseng was his assistant for almost six months. Can you say what responsibility Dr. Becker-Freyseng had for this kind of experiments in your opinion as *s he was Anthony's assistant?
AAs I know Anthony he certainly did not let anyone take too much from him. I can imagine that he gave Dr. Becker-Freyseng certain work deal with but it must be possible to prove that by means of signatures. I don't know whether the files or parts of the files are available.
Q. We will get to the matter of signatures later, witness, but just said you don't believe that Prof. Anthony gave up very much. To specific now, you know Prof. Anthony and you probably know what he preffered to deal with in the experiments which I have mentioned; they ware primarily high altitude experiments and cold experiments; do you know anything about that?
A. I think that Anthony would not have given up that type of war.
Q. What makes you think that?
A I can't prove that, but that is my feeling, for this reason, we know, under the former medical inspectorate Pippke, Anthony was able to deal with Hippke directly without going through the section chief and the chief of staff; and I think that he kept everything in his own hands and did not like to give anything up.
Q. Very well. Now, do you know anything about this: did Prof. Anthony, in aviation medicine, have any special field in which he was interested -- any hobbies?
A. That is hard to say.
Q. You don't know?
A. No. I don't know.
Q. And you just believe on the basis of your personal impression of these personalities that Anthony probably worked on these questions personally and that he gave Dr. Becker-Freyseng only certain fields.
A. Yes, that is my opinion.
Q. Very well. Now in this connection, concerning Prof. Anthony, I will show you a document; it is in the German Document Book No. 3 first volume, on page 22 and 23. It was submitted as NO 286, Prosecution Exhibit No. 87. I have shown you a photostatic copy; you have it there.
A. Yes.
Q. It is a letter with the heading: The Reich Minister of Aviation and commanding in Chief of the Luftwaffe; it has a file note 55, and number which has no connection here. The letter is addressed to Reich Fuehrer SS; it is dated 8th of October, 1942.
Fitness, will you please look at the signature; can you decipher who certifies the correctoiss there; do you know the signature?
A. Yes, that is the signature of Prof. Anthony, the referent for aviation medicine.
Q. Very well; now please look at the signature a little more carefully. It reads: "Draft signed by order;" and under that 'true copy', and 'Anthony' as you just said. Now, can you please explain to the Court what it means if in Luftwaffe correspondence there is such a notation on a letter.
A. Yes. Standing at the top, draft signed by order; if the medical inspector signs, he also signed by order because the heading read the Reich Aviation Minister, etc. Since that is not his own position, he signs "by order". That makes no difference whether it is the inspector or the chief of staff.
Q. Now, it does not mean that there was a special order for this signature but that it was a general authorization for the chief of staff or the medical inspector to sign "by order of the Reich Aviation Ministry."
A. Yes.
Q. And that was Wullen who was the Chief of Staff at that time?
A. Yes, at that tine.
Q. What does it mean if such a letter says, "draft signed, Wullen, and true copy, Anthony; what does that mean?
A. That means that Prof. Anthony worked out this matter and submitted it to the chief of staff. The chief of staff no doubt approved it in general, but it seems to me that some changes were made here; perhaps he said it is to be prepared as we have it here and then he signed the draft; and then, probably after correcting it, Anthony did not submit it to the chief of staff again. That is why it says draft signed.
Q. That means that the draft of this letter was given by Prof. Anthony to the chief of staff; that he signed the draft; that the letter was copied then; it was not necessary to have it signed again. That the person who had worked out the natter and submitted it, that is to Anthony, had the right to certify this letter.
A. Yes.
Q. That was the general practice?
A. Yes, at that time.
Now witness, just keep the document book; there are some other things in it. I shall go over to another field. You said that as adjutant of the air Fleet Physician 2 you worked on personnel matters, and in addition from '44 on you were a referent for officer matters. Then I may assume that you are the right man to tell us about transfers and assignment of medical officers.
A. Yes.
Q. On the basis of this general knowledge, I should like to discuss with you three documents that have been submitted by the Prosecution; you already have the document book. The first one is in the German Document Book, No. 13, on Lost Experiments, on page 24; it was submitted as NO 196; it is Prosecution's Exhibit 261. I shall quote briefly from this document.
The heading reads: "The Reich Fuehrer SS Personal Staff, Field Command Post, 24 August, 1942. To: Chief of SS Main Office, SS Gruppenfuehrer Berger. Dear Gruppenfuehrer: SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Professor Dr. A. Hirt, Strassburg, who had a great part in the finding of the institute for military scientific research; you are urgently needed in our medical section. Oberzrst Karl Wimmer is at present on this medical section seven to work at the Anatomischen Institute at the University of Strassburg." The rest of the letter does not interest us; only the signature. SS- Obersturmfuehrer -it is to be assumed that that is Rudolf Brandt, the defendant.
A Let me correct one thing. This is the Luftwaffe Medical Training Section.
Q Yes. The second letter I want to discuss with you us in Document Book No. 13, on page 30; it is submitted by the Prosecution as NO 193, Exhibit No. 264. I shall quote from this too. First the heading: "Das Ahnenerbe, the Reich Business Manager, Berlin-Dahle.22.4.43, Secret; to: SS Obersturmbannfuehr Rudolf Brandt, Personal Staff Reich Fuehrer SS, Berlin SW 11, subject: Dr. Med. Habil Karl Himmer Stabsarzt der Luftwaffe, commandad by Luftgauarzt Muenchen, physician, for service with the Anatomischen Institute of the University of Strassburg. Dear Comrade Brandt: Effectively immediately Dr. Wimmer has been transferred to the XX Air Corps; according to information given by Mitteilung in Berlin." The rest of the letter is of no interest. Now, I should like to ask you this question on the basis of your knowledge of matters concerning officers? can you say whether the medical inspectorate of the Luftwaff was informed of this service of Dr. Wimmer to the Institute in Strassburg, or whether this assignment was ordered by the medical inspectorate?
A That happened in 1942? for that reason I can answer only on the basis of my general knowledge. Luftgausanitaetsbteilung 7 can transfer a physician under his command from one point to another. There was no difficulty in that, transferring a physician to Strassburg.
Q Strassburg was under Luftgau 7, wasn't it?
A Yes. That is something which the medical inspectorate no doubt never learned about. It is possible that the Air Fleet Physician, I think it was Zenter at that time, was information about that; probably nobody else.
Q Then the medical inspectorate probably didn't learn about that?
A No.
Q That is, from the first letter; what would you conclude from the second letter that he is to be transferred effective immediately; what does that mean? Let me put it like this. Who had to order this transfer?
A The personnel office.
Then, the Reich Aviation Ministry?
A Yes.
Q And can we assume that a transfer of a medical officer from such a detail would have taken place suddenly if the Reich Aviation Ministry had know about it?
A No, I wouldn't think so. One must conclude that the personnel office transferred him, without reporting to the inspectorate; out, that is not necessary. There were about seven thousand medical officers in the Luftwaffe.
Q Then you conclude the medical inspectorate know about the transfer to Strassburg?
A Yes, that is my conclusion.
Q. Now, Witness, another document with a similar effect. You have it, too. It is again in Book XIII on page 33, Document NO-195, Exhibit 266.
It reads:
"The Reichsfuehrer SS, Personal Staff, Field Command Post, 9 July 1943. Top Secret."
It is addressed to the Personal Referent of the Reich Marshal, Ministerial Counselor, Dr. Goerner.
"Dear Party Member Goerner: Referring to our telephone conversation of the 3rd of June 1943, I request your support for a very quick re-transfer of Stabsarzt Dr. Med, Habil Karl Wimmer, who was transferred to the Eleventh Air Corps from the Luftgau Medical Training Department 7 to the Anatomical Institute of the University of Strassburg." The letter is signed SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Brandt. In view of the question just discussed, what do you conclude from this document, witness?
A. I must conclude that here again this took place without the knowledge of the Inspectorate. If the Inspectorate had participated in this action, one telephone conversation would have been sufficient to have the case managed as desired and all these letters - I have seen three letters about Dr. Wimmer already - all these letters would not have been necessary.
Q. Then you say, if the Medical Inspectorate had ordered this transfer to Strassburg, then a telephone call to the Anatomical Institute would have been enough? All this ...
A. Yes.
Q. .... correspondence would not have been necessary?
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. So that we can say with considerable certainty that this assignment was given without the knowledge of the Medical Inspectorate and according to the document was instigated by Luftgau Physician 7 in Munich?
A. Yes, that is my assumption.
Q. Now, witness, in the discussion of cold experiments yesterday Professor Holzloehner played a special role. You, no doubt, know the name?
A. Yes.
Q. And it was said that in 1940 Professor Holzloehner had a sea rescue station at the Channel coast. Do you know anything about that?
A. Yes.
Q. Very well, and it was said that the purpose of this station was to rescue fliers who had crashed in the Channel, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, can you say briefly how this station was organized and say what observation opportunities they had?
A. Yes. The rescue station was at Vissant near Cap Gris Nez. From there one could see a large part of the Channel. That was why the station was put there in order to be able to rescue quickly because crashes of planes could actually be seen. That is why this station was set up there.
Q. And did this rescue station have the opportunity or the possibility of rescuing those fliers immediately?
A. Yes.
Q. What facilities did they have?
A. They had a motor cutter.
Q. And this boat was ready to start out when the planes went over?
A. Yes.
Q. Then in favorable cases between the time of the crash and rescue there might be only a few minutes, a quarter of an hour perhaps?
A. But that is exaggerated. One has to get there first. The Channel is thirty-one kilometers wide.
Q. Yes, I know, witness. I am speaking of especially favorable cases.
A. Yes.
Q. Then you say these rescue stations had such facilities, that there was only a short time between the crash and the rescue?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, do you know how long Professor Holzloehner was there?
A. No, I don't know that.
Q. Do you know whether this rescue station had carried out frequent rescues?
A. There were eight or twelve persons rescued.
Q. During your time?
A. Yes, During my time.
Q. And Holzloehner remained there later?
A. That I cannot say. I do not know.
Q. But you will be able to say this: Professor Holzloehner gained great experience with the treatment of cold?
A. Yes, one must admit that.
Q. And Schroeder knew that, too?
A. Yes.
Q. Schroeder was there with you once? Was he ever there?
A. Not with me. I know this station independently.
Q. But you know that Schroeder was there?
A. Yes.
DR. TIPP: I have no further questions.
DR. KRAUSS: Dr. Krauss for the defendant Professor Rostock. Mr. President, I ask permission to ask a single question for your orientation and to avoid misunderstandings.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. KRAUSS:
Q. There is a German university city with the name "Rostock". Witness, if you testified that Professor Anthony was deferred for the Medical Polyclinic Rostock, then you meant, did you not, the medical polyclinic at the University of Rostock?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. Not the clinic of Professor Rostock?
A. No. It was the Medical university clinic of the city of Rostock.
DR. KRAUSS: I thank you. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any further questions of this witness by the defense counsel? There being none, the prosecution nay cross-examine.
MR. HARDY: May it please Your Honor, I have no questions to put to this Witness for cross-examination.
DR. MARX: I have no further questions to the witness Augustinick.
The PRESIDENT: The witness may be excused.
DR. MARX: Mr. President, I now have another witness, but before I begin with the fitness Witt, I might suggest a recess so that I do not have to out the examination in two.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. McHANEY: May it please the tribunal,Dr. Marx, I understand, has called the witness Dr. Fritz Witt to testify on behalf of Schroeder. Dr. Marx has heretofore called Pastor Jentsch and Dr. Augustinick, both whom have testified considerable length with respect to the character of the defendant Schroeder. The witness linked as Dr. Fritz Witt is also called, as I understand it, to testify as to character, which will make the third character witness. Additionally, we are noticed with an intention to call Frau Karin ******, what will also testify as to character.
The Prosecution feels that time is a very essential element in this case and that it is not necessary for a defendant to call as many as four character witnesses. We therefore ask the Tribunal to limit character witnesses to two for each defendant, which have already been called on behalf of the defendant Schroeder.
The Prosecution, in the other two cases where witnesses have been listed for the purpose of giving character evidence, is willing to stipulate in the record that these witnesses will testify that the defendant Schroeder had a good reputation in his community.
JUDGE SIEBRING: A good reputation for what?
Mr. McHANEY: As to character, Your Honor, as an honorable man. Or, ta make it more specific, if Dr. Marx cares to state what,precisely, the type of character evidence is he expects these two witnesses to give, we will then be able to stipulate more precisely. But we would like to avoid the calling of more than two character witnesses for each defendant because if more than that number is called, it is apt to prolong the case considerably. It also should be noted that the defendant Schroeder has a substantial number of affidavits dealing with character in his document book, and I think that the rights of the defendants will be amply protected by permitting them to call no more that two character witnesses to testify, which, of course, the right to submit as many affidavits as they care to on the same subject.
THE PRESIDENT: What is your view on the matter?
DR. MARX: May it please the Tribunal, the defense is of the opinion that more time would be lost if the Prosecution and the Defense would engage in discussion as to whether or not certain witnesses should be examined. The witness, Dr. Will, has been approved.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, the Tribunal will hear witness Fritz Will rather briefly on the character if the witness can testify as to facts. If the witness testifies as to facts, that is a different question. The Tribunal would be inclined to put a limit on the witnesses who testify only to the matter of character. In this case the witness will be heard, but on the matter of character only, and rather briefly.
The Marshal will summon the witness, Dr. Witt.
FRITZ WITT, a witness, took the stand and testiffied as follows:
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q Hold up your right hand and be sworn repeating after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. MARX:
Q Witness, will you please give the Tribunal your full name?
A. My name is Fritz Witt.
Q When and where were you born?
A I was born on the 14th of March, 1887.
Q What is your present address?
A Kohlerstrasse 33, Nuernberg.
Q What is your profession?
A I am a dentist. At present, I am the Chief Consultant of the B avarian Chamber of Dentist.
Q Will you please give the Tribunal a short sketch of your professional history?
A I passed my state medical examination 1910. In 1912, I settled at Darmstadt as a dentist. I represented the interests of my colleagues. In 1922, I received the request to come to Berlin as General Secretary of the Reich League of Dentists. I remained General Secretary until the year 1933. Then this organization was reconverted. I lost my position. I gained the position of expert because I belonged to a free Mason lodge. I had to take care of subordinate work, especially questions portaining to insurance. I also had to take care of the dental treatment in the **cht.
In this capacity, I made the acquaintance of many medical officers, among them was Professor Schroeder. At the outbreak of the war, it had been determined that the dental supply had not been secured to a sufficient extent. I, therefore, furnished the experience which I had gained in practicing my profession and I was conscripted into the Luftwaffe.
In 1942, I was then transferred to the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe. I worked there until the final collapse.
Q Therefore, you know Professor Schroeder for a long period of time1 officially. Do you know him from private contacts?
A Yes. I have also frequently had private discussions with him. Our relationship was a very friendly one. We had mutual friends, and we also attended certain meetings and conventions together. This relationship was continued during the entire course of the war, although at that time I saw very little of Professor Schroeder, until in 1944, he final * **** Berlin as Inspector.
Q Then, you were in particularly close official contact with him?
A Yes. Professor Schroeder lived at the camp. And I was in constand contact with the individual man.
Q What was the official assignment of Professor Schroeder during the war?
AAt the outbreak of the war, Professor Schroeder, first of all, was Chief of Staff in the Inspectorate. In 1940, he became Air Physician of the Air Fleet II. Then he was in the East, West and Southern Theater of Operations, until 1944; when he became Medical Inspector.
Q During the time Professor Schroeder as physician of Air Fleet, were you in Berlin with the Medical Inspectorate?
A Yes.
Q During this period of time; did Professor Schroeder know Professor Hippke in his capacity as Medical Chief of the Luftwaffe?