We take the responsibility and we assure you that you are free from punishment." It was as legal as anything could be legal in the Third Reich. I said then, "I do not understand that you keep it secret. If an experiment is to have any scientific value it must be examined by the mass of experienced doctors at a congress, and must be tested at hundreds of clinics, and must become a well known term internationally, and so must acquire its moral value. It must do useful service to the broad mass of humanity."
In spite of all objection of the RSHA I insisted on this point, but when it comes to my report I shall tell what difficulties I had. But I may point out that the concept of giving it to the public was introduced by me, and that I do not believe that the prosecution can prove that since that day I have kept my name away and tried to keep my name away from the sulphamilamide experiments.
Now, I will come to the two concepts which only within the order and within the criticism of the Courts, are purely at the expense of the executing doctor. Here is the base of possibilities and here I agree with the prosecution for the full responsibility, that is the scientific regulation of the experiments set it for thought as thoroughly to the end. Second, the human urge to save lives. That is, that the executing physician at the moment, when for the sake of a scientific experiment, he has to count on certain death, considers security measures before scientific considerations. I hope that this explanation can be found in a document, yet the prosecution will not bring the document in my favor, only the others. Himmler had this document with these words which I have just quoted. Then on the 6th and the 7th we went to see Himmler. I demanded by telephone, what had never happened before, that the inspector of the concentration camp, Gluecks, should be present.
Q. Just a minute, Witness. You said on the 6th and 7th, that was June?
A. June, that was June? No, July, 1942. Up to that time everything had been done through the cap. I do not understand from the Brandt notes that Grawitz was not mentioned because as far as I knew Grawitz was there at the discussion on the 6th. At any case, I talked to Himmler, Grawitz and Gluetz, the inspector of the concentration camp, and I again reported my point of view as I have explained it here, and as a clear distinction I said it was not on my initiative, and I had no intention of conducting any such experiment, that I could not let Grawitz carry out the experiment alone. That was not basic research. That is not a bacteriological problem. That is for the front clinical men and old clinical men. If that experiment is conducted it will be under my protection and my responsibility, and I will take the responsibility, and then on the first opportunity we will go to the broad mass of doctors and acknowledge what the State has ordered and what the responsible doctors have done, and to the end of our lives we will subject ourselves to the criticism of the public.
I have remained more or less alone in doing this. Gluecks was not of the opinion that this could be done, because the condition came that I told them one thing is clear, I said the experiment if it begins with my name will be done only on persons condemned for whom the State has taken the responsibility and whom the State gives the opportunity of saving their lives. I did not ask whether Himmler had the right to pronounce a death sentence. You gave discussion as to the legal basis of the Third Reich -- for me Himmler was the Chief of execution who could execute thousands of people by a stroke of the pen. His instrument was the authority of the Reich Office, the RSHA. I was forced to take the responsibility by name, and the people condemned to death could, of course, only be German and only men. Up to now by mutual participation if has never been mentioned, although the documents are well known, that the experiment began with 15 men who came over from Sachsenhausen to Ravensbruck that essentially according to the RSHA they were condemned to death, and that they remained alive. I believe my conditions were relatively clear. I disassociated myself completely from the selection. I disassociated myself express from the initiative for the experiment in itself. I do not admit the selection of any arbitrary person should be left to the camp or camp physician. I said the experiments would have to be conducted on German men condemned to death. It was actually done, and they survived the experiment, and the result since this day became known not only in Germany but in Switzerland and England, otherwise it would not have been so simple to condemn my to death. On the other hand the question of scientific execution had the human conduct was my field of responsibility for which I take the responsibility now.
Q. Witness, I shall go back to the discussion after the death of Heydrich, between you and Himmler, is it true that according to the statements which Himmler made it was quite clear that this was the execution of an order which Hitler himself as the head of the State had given?
A. I can say under oath that that was what Himmler told me. I want it to be absolutely correct. I said that I was not received. Hitler always wanted a report when I performed an operation. Himmler told me with the express approval and the wish of the Fuehrer, and the wish of the Fuehrer was a state order. We did not make a discussion of the instruction, whether Lammers had counter-signed it there, but Hitler ordered and Himmler carried it out and Himmler was my commanding officer and I was obligated by the oath which I described yesterday. I said this because I am not a coward. I could have disassociated myself from the experiment. The experiment would have been dead, and one night say the experiment was useless.
Q. In the discussion of July 6, 1942 Gluecks was present?
A. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: At this time the Court will take the noon recess until 1:30.
(Noon recess)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330, 5 March 1947)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
KARL GEBHARDT - Resumed REDIRECT EXAMINATION (CONTINUED) BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, what were the general security measures adopted in connection with the experiments by you the aim of which was, quite obviously, that whenever possible deaths or serious damage to the experimental parsons was to be excluded?
A. I have made every effort coming about the accomplishment of the experiments should be described so clearly that it was without my initiative -- this is something I want to repeat -- there was no order, no personal connection, no suggestion of any type on the part of any of the gentlemen from the Armed Forces or the members of the second meeting. But, on the other hand, I should like to emphasize equally strongly that for the me carrying out, as far as their scientific and human side are concerned, I feel fully responsible and I am picturing it openly according to the reconstruction I am arriving at according to my reaction. The starting point was that right from the beginning conditions for the experiments, such as were assumed by Grawitz in a conversation with Himmler, namely, that wounds similar to war wounds were to be the starting point of an affliction were never at any time allowed to creep into these experiments by me. The second to my mind rather relevant point, is that I did not in any way discuss this plan with any of my collaborators, or make suggestions and then left the subordonate to his fate. But this carrying out of the plan was my work and that I am describing is well or as badly as it ran when I am talking to you now. I think that the main security measures were that after all, one of the best surgeons of the Waffen-SS, coming from the old school, who had only dealt with other special fields, was personally carrying out the clinical side of those experiments.
There was, therefore, no doubt to me, something which later on became a disaster concerning Himmler's attitude, that the experiments were going on near Hohenlychen. It was not my view that in such outrageous matters of colossal importance one would send a medical assistant officer off to Dachau then make an occasional inspection and then if there are a number of dead people or something wrong has gone on one deserts the person in question and says "I thought this would have run differently". You know Fischer's story, and I am sure he is going to be quite open about his own view of the matter and with reference to my influence with you, anyway you know that my old collaborator at Hohenlychen held that institute in the highest esteem and it couldn't have been immaterial to them. It wasn't immaterial to them that we were suddenly involved in a concentration camp experiment. It is quite clear that I listened to any objections. And it is quite clear that I tried to work as sincerely as possible. And it is also clear that none of my subordinates could take an order from me if I were to have assumed the authority of someone about me.
I did not imagine that we would get to the point where not only my personal reputation but that of my old institute, my sanitorium, would be at stake, and that they would be considered equivalent to a concentration camp, which we are now told was whit happened. Himmler and the SS were most responsible for this point and that was clear to me at the time. Anyway, we entered into this experiment with a clear cut authority from the RSHA and we drafted instructions for the experiments giving approximate figures, and Grawitz, of course, basing himself on his pseudo-scientific conceptions, was speaking about large scale experiments. And I, on the other hand, was fighting for every man being used. I changed conditions since Grawitz could not judge the surgical side of the matter at all. And I in my capacity as a well known surgeon at the time refused to have an internist interfere with my business.
Q. Earlier on you used the word Grossversuch, large scale experiment, but in reality in documents submitted by the prosecution the figure of 205 persons occurs which were selected for experiments according to the Grawitz plan.
What is the situation there?
A. Well, actually, we had to make reports regarding the number of people one had to expect if that experiment would go on for any length of time, and we attached considerable importance to it that the RSHA should check and deliberately place at our disposal as their responsibility the right number of people. I think I can remember that at some point I had explicit information that 205 people were definitely sentenced to death had been chosen. Whether this was said in connection with the Poles, I cannot say from my recollection.
Q. When carrying out these experiments was the defendant Dr. Fritz Fischer involved; what was the reason for you to choose Dr. Fischer particularly in connection with these experiments?
A. That is probably the most bitter point of my responsibility, after the prosecution had come to the harmless decision that the outcast of surgeons and humanity, Gebhardt, had found a willing tool in Fischer. I chose the best man, holding the most important position in Hohenlychen, working on the most seriously ill patients, I chose him against his will and put him in that frightful position, And, if there is one thing I regret, it is that I asked Fischer to make that sacrifice.
It is quite easy to say a young doctor, who does not know much, should be given a chance to got to work without supervision, but that means you did not know conditions in Germany. I know Fischer's personality and there was a station in Hohenlychen dealing with the most seriously ill patients, it was outside our hospital and it was my former ward having sixty beds and that contained most seriously ill patients who could be found in the whole sanitarium. There was one assistant doctor there immediately responsible to the chief without supervision of the Oberarzt (chief doctor). For years and years I was looking for the right man so that my back could be covered if I had to leave. From the scientific point of view and from the human point of view, Fischer was the right man for the job. And now, someone is to try to tell me what the training period was supposed to be for that man. For three years he was a pathologist working in the biggest clinic and hospital in Berlin; he was working in a hospital with 2,200 beds and right out of this, he was appointed deputy chief because he had all scientific, human and intellectual qualifications.
From 1938 to 1939 he worked there independently exploiting the scientific points of the work. I would have thought that an American would understand that one would not overlook seven or eight years of progress and that one would chose the right talent for the right spot.
I had very close connections with this Virchow hospital after I had been offered to go to the Virchow hospital also in Berlin, as chief surgeon. A surgeon who had worked in Sauerbruch came at the same time with me. I was given this high position and I initiated the Warm Springs - an American Spa - at Hohenlychen with the same American condition. I visited Virchow and we had approximately the same installations. During the next years of peace, I had opportunity to find for myself the best man for that hospital and that was Fischer, whom I called to my clinic, along about that time. Fischer had worked under me for two years directly in one station only working on people who had nothing to do with the experimental prisoners.
It was under my supervision that after the three years of scientific training, training under me of High classical scientifical teaching, that for one year Fischer was at the front during the same winter collapse as when I was there. He came back with the same experiences that I came back with, he knew the front, he knew our patients at home. Then I not only used my own efforts, but also the efforts of tie man who was indispensable to Hohenlychen and made him use every free hour to go the concentration camp, to the place where the seriously ill patients were and have him take care of every seriously ill patient there. The case of every report, which I received came from Fischer either orally or in writing and he also reported about his experimental patients.
Q. Fischer was your assistant at Hohenlychen, but was also SS Obersturmfuehrer; he was also your military subordinate and you were his general; is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct. I don't know whether Fischer over volunteered to come to me, he was recommended to me as the most valuable person from the hospital. He was with the cavalry storm troopers of the General SS and turned up with the Waffen SS and consequently was under my jurisdiction. I wanted him to become my assistant and if I took care of a man during his training period, then it was Fischer, not only because of his tremendous personal capabilities, but also for other reasons, such as his scientific out-put and humane and medical attitude. He justified my confidence at every moment. Just because it had been a decision for me, an important decision to take an experiment in a concentration camp away from Grawitz, it was because I went to the concentration camp with my own assistant.
Q. Fischer carried out the experiments together with you and by your order; that is clear is it not?
A. Fischer never worked independantly by himself. There was always a question of differentiating between things I instituted. There are lawa between surgeons which you have to understand and see the point. Naturally, I would not carry cut a minor operation by myself and naturally I would not have done that in Hohenlychen in any case. Particularly because of the few days I spent in Hohenlychen I had to deal with the outstanding aseptic surgery cases. I would not have dealt with gangrene cases at all neither in connection with other surgeons or myself. In order to make clear such responsibility, I always did something that is entirely customary among German surgeons, that is I carried out the first incision myself and that meant it was my operation.
That is the way I want you to see this and you can always hoar from the discussion and statement of the witness that whenever Gebhardt wanted to finish up everything, there was friction with younger men. I would not say that "I am a General, you are young and untrained." I would say in the presence of all the witnesses, "I have carried out these operations on you, this is my operation and Fischer merely assisted me." But, with all the tremendous power of my authority, which passed through my person as a General and a chief of the Research Institute, I pushed Fischer and brought it to bear on him and Fischer's of course had no doubt what it meant. Thus, due to Fischer's intervention entirely, it was due to his intervention, that the experiments caused so few lives.
Q. Was it your impression of Fischer that he was enthusiastic about these experiments?
A. I have already told you earlier there was considerable difficulty in my clinic, difficulties which I had to clear myself. It was incredible in the case of Hohenlychen that we, who never had any dealings with Ravensbruch, who never before or after had a visiting medical officer from Ravensbruch, who had never visited Ravensbruch ourselves, we, by order from Grawitz, whom I could evade quite successfully on other occasions, should be included in this affair. On the other hand it is not a habit of generals once I made a decision that I should have discussions about it with my subordinates. I made it clear that I had taken on this order, received this order and the question now was to make sure it was carried out as decently as possible and that Hohenlychen would stand for that. That meant that I, myself, Gebhardt, would accept the responsibility, and that it was not Fischer's responsibility, is proved by reports ho sent at the front.
It is quite clear and I do not have to emphasize how bravely he fought and lost his arm at the front and it only shows what kind of man he is. It shows what kind of a man Fischer was for when his arm was shot off he remained at the front with the troops for several days until after he had taken care of the last injured man and it was only then he allowed the amputation operation to take place. There was of course the second operation due to very serious complications and as soon as possible after that he went back to the front. Had I not forced him to be detailed for ex-rays at Berlin, he would be dead now, ns it was his wish that he should fall, that he should die.
Q. And I now come to the participation of the defendant Herta Oberhaeuser in the experiments; before the beginning of these experiments bad you known the defendant Herta Oberhaeuser?
A. I can only describe to you the impression to which I beg the high Tribunal to attack a certain amount of weight. Herta Oberhaeuser played a noble part and tried so decently and kindly to take care of the patients, that at one state I took notice of her when she was applying dressings. During these initial arguments between Grawitz, when it was a quest ion when it was a question of man opposing man and soldier opposing soldier he had the higher rank, there were some subordinates who were no longer aware. Naturally, that little girl did not play a part, nor did she have any criminal instincts, nor did she try to do anything in a particularly cruel fashion. What I thought of her and how decently she acted in this desperate situation with which we were faced is something from which you can derive another conclusion, something connected with the entire disaster with which we were faced. I tried always to treat particularly decent those people who I had forced into the situation.
Herta Oberhaeuser was definitely unhappy, she had to act as medical officer in a concentration camp, but not because she was participating in any particular crimes which are charged against her. The dominating feature was that in that concentration camp there were prostitutes ready to be chosen for brothels, there were insane people and God knows what else. She wanted to leave that atmosphere and I took her along as a woman doctor to Hohenlychen. The impression her work made on me, her presence made on me, is proved in the best way from the fact that from the civilian department she was transferred to the women's and children's department a department where she had to take care of about 160 people. She also became the doctor of my family and my children. Had I had the impression that she was acting in a particularly reckless an criminal manner, I would not have called her to that position nor if she had reminded me of anything which I myself did not consider to be quite correct. She had excellent training over a number of years. At some point her department had detached her from service, then the duty of socrocy was imposed upon her and these special duties did not allow her to leave the concentration camp had it not been through us.
She was the station doctor attached to this experimental station shich we had especially created for experimental persons, but she only becomes visible when we start being concerned with moment. She helped us reliably and decently, and most of all she had a staff of Poles working for her, something which seems to be forgotten somewhat by now, namely, that there were a group of Poles who quite happily collaborated with the Germans. The nurses and the sisters were Poles, and the head sister, head nurse was German, so that as far as I could judge the position, and also during the subsequent period when she had this confidential position at Hohenlychen, I considered her to show great signs of human decency and reliability.
Q Defendant Oberhauser, therefore, was seen by you for the first time in Ravensbrueck after the experiments had already started?
A Yes. Quite certainly she was not there during the beginning initial period of the experiments because they were concerned with men and then later at some stage a women station was created, and it was at that point at which she became the station doctor.
I can remember that whenever I was applying large dressings myself Defendant Oberhauser somehow seemed to be there in her capacity as the ward doctor who received her instructions through us.
Q Did Defendant Oberhauser participate in any conferences which you had with Dr. Grawitz or any other medical man or high-ranking officer of the Waffen-SS dealing with such experiments?
A Certainly not. The whole situation was that all preliminary discussions or plannings, as you might call them, were merely discussions which she had with me alone. The carrying out was my responsibility and Fischer was my assistant. The word medical officer was Oberhauser. Therefore, we talked about the taking care and the therepeutical effect and any possible incidents, but the discussions, the arguments between Grawitz and myself were such that if there were witnesses, then it wouldn't have been subordinate officers and certainly not a woman. Any inference of participation on Herta Oberhauser's part is out of the question.
Q Defendant Oberhauser was actually working on venereal diseases and skin diseases?
A Yes.
Q When carrying out these experiments, did you have any personal or scientific interest in the woman?
A No, not at all. I don't want to say the wrong thing, but I think she probably didn't appreciate the real meaning of our work at the fronts, and certainly I wouldn't have taken steps to communicate it to her.
Q Defendant Dr. Oberhauser has been accused that she hadn't taken sufficient care of patients, and one woman witness stated that when she came to after an anaesthetic, she had her face slapped by Dr. Oberhauser. What are your observations in that respect, and what can you say about them?
A I hope that the High Tribunal will give me an opportunity to deal with the question of observations made and judgment passed by concentration camp inmates. There was the spiritual infection which would be in existence in such a case, and there was the question of passing on rumors. I do not believe that the situation was such as described by Dr. Mazka, namely, that when I went there, every thing was in order, and had deteriorated when I left It is a little too difficult to reorganize everything, because, after all, nobody know the times when i would come. For instance, when I had to go to Stalingrad and had already checked out of Ravensbrueck, my worry and concern made me turn around, and once again I went back to the camp in order to see if only that part of the experiments was continued which was justifiable for the brief period of my absence. Therefore, I would have had to see it if any particular change in conditions had been made during my absence.
With refence to the details such as they have been described here, I want to say that it is a most peculiar affair which would never be prevelent in any judicial or legal picture, that the person who has suffered, has been operated on, has been sick would not only say what happened to him, what he went through, but would also speak about the value of the operations.
Every thing that happened in connection with the operations would describe the case history, in fact, would give an expert opinion. I have neither the right nor the intention to criticize these poor women personally. I am perfectly convinced that they were trying to be as honest in speaking, as honestly as they knew, but I would like to point out that now after three years, and under the considerable pressure of the press and the journal situation, private interrogations, they would give just that picture of the situation which is now an actuality.
We, of course, as doctors know that there is no greater chance for misinterpretation than doctors' actions being described by laymen, and this question of hitting someone after an anaesthetic is one of the most typical examples of this. Whatever literature you read about the problems of anaesthetics, you will always find a chapter, at the end of which it says: if someone recovers from the depth of this sleep, then he would usually misinterpret the person or over-estimate the value of the person when he finds that he is faced with. You all know from literature the tremendous worship which suddenly makes the anaesthetic nurse appear as the operating surgeon or some frightfully important person, or which, on the other hand, when someone is just coming back to consciousness, while his tongue is sticking to his gums, that he cannot breathe freely, will suddenly start shaking himself in fear of suffocation, and the, of course, there are the first reflexes of coming to his argument with an egotist. It is cheap to consider that sort of thing implicating a tale against a woman or to have statements made that faces were covered. I would have taken a job away from any assistant or doctor at Hohenlychen if he had allowed a patient to watch a dressing being applied, and if an accusation can be raised in this connection, then it is that was not carried out severely enough and strictly enough.
You all know that if a person is suffering and facing his diseases without justified criticism and when they suddenly see an operation scar or some blood escaping or a piece of detached flesh, then that will impress itself firmly in their minds as the dramatic point of all the happenings in question. Therefore, does the patient not only vomit during the dressing, not only does he shout, not only will he become excited and impede tho progress of the dressing, but he will also psychologically be under pressure, and it underlines the fact that the laws of decent clinical treatment were applied us in the concentration camp, too, whem we find that they were so covered during the change of dressings that they could not see their own wounds. At any rate, all these are instructions based only schooling and not cruelties committed by this little woman.
Q. Was Defendant Dr. Oberhauser independent as a doctor at Ravensbrueck or was she subject to the instructions from the chief camp and station officers?
A. She was the lowest back-room girl in this military table of organizations. I know how difficult I found it to get her out of there. After all I had a male staff of officers, and somehow she as an expert doctor was attached to this staff for venereal diseases naturally fully subordinated to the lowest camp doctor working there.
Q. What work did Defendant Oberhauser carry out before the experiments in connection with those experimental persons?
A. I have emphasized it strongly, and thank God this is something which can be proved clearly by individual statements made by witnesses, that we had nothing to do with the selection, that these people were called up according to a nominal role which had been compiled elsewhere, but, of course, we wanted to know whether there was not a patient who had additional diseases who had come into this infection experiment. I didn't have anybody better to carry out examinations of that kind than Oberhauser, and it is not right to say that every man in Hohenlychen had been carefully examined by specialists six times before they were operated on, but it is, after all, a place where the fact that every 4039.
witness states that she was either x-rayed or that her heart and her lungs were checked, and that even for one or two days her temperature was taken before the experiment actually started, that they were bathed, that the legs were shaved before the cut was made and that drugs were given them. If you always take the fitting pieces of all this testimony, then you will show that these clinics were taking care of just as much as they were taking care of at Hohenlychen at the same time.
Don't forget we weren't in America; we didn't have money and time and medical officers in abundance. I had no choice; I had to deal with 1,000 to 1500 people in case of an epidemic in Hohenlychen, and i had doctors to take care of two hundred patients. I myself had to fly back and forth in order to be able to assume my responsibilities everywhere, and that, of course, was the case in Ravensbrueck, too.
At any rate, if somebody was operated on and not previously examined to the last point as is now wanted by democrats living in a peace period, then it is my fault; my collaborators did what they could considering the lack of time.
Q. What was Defendant Oberhauser's part in actual experiments and operations?
A. I can only tell you that if I was there, Oberhauser was never there, or, at any rate, she doesn't seem to be there by recollection. In each group I would look at the beginning and I would watch the decisive change of dressings, and in no case could I carry out more in the case of any individual station at Hohenlychen because it was impossible from the point of view of numbers of people. All I can remember in tho case of Oberhaucer is that she was present when bandages were changed, that she came along with the patients, that she was taking down the type of medicine that was to be given them, and that was all I can remember. Whether and to what extent she assisted Fischer, stood by during the case of an operation, please don't asked me to give you that during my testimony now considering that in the meantime I have dealt with thousands of wounded men in other places.
Q The experiments for the trying out of the effect of sulfonamides was carried out at Ravensbrueck, weren't they?
A Yes.
Q Please, will you tell the Tribunal how this sick bay was equipped, and what the conditions were from the point of view of hygiene and the medical point of view?
A Oh, we have had all that. If it was said that a station at Ravensbrueck was as good as a field hospital for German soldiers, then we were told that that was lies and cowardice on our part to say anything like that. Well, that isn't my view. I don't think that in the case of a well-run station the medical side must necessarily be well-run. It is, in my opinion, correct to say that a good doctor should be capable of improvising and should be capable of operating decently in a hayloft or in Russia in a field. What we did take care of was that things were started well in Ravensbrueck. I can only say under oath something which has been repeated here inspite of the tendency which creeps into these stories that in the case of gangrene that there was an operating room for gangrenous infections and one for not gangrenous infections, and in 1942 that was something which fifty percent of hospitals in large German towns no longer had, and in the field certainly never had since it was quite impossible to separate these two types of operating rooms. I know that operating rooms were decently equipped, but I had the same objections which any surgeon would have operating on foreign soil, that I didn't know the material, that I didn't know the personnel, particularly because they were Polish with whom one was working together.
The x-ray assistant who was working with Stumpfegger was Dr. Muenster, who was well known to me. There were four Polish nurses working there, so that the situation was that we decided that for the really decisive matters we should bring along whom we could possibly bring along, and the things which we brought along were medical supplies and, to my knowledge, some laundry and other things which were needed, and of course, surgical instruments.
Q The sick bay had also been established with a modern radio, is that right?
A If I remember correctly, that was the only thing we brought along, but I may be wrong, and either the x-ray equipment wasn't there or it was inferior, so that when we asked for it, a certain amount of equipment was supplied, and I think the x-ray equipment was among that.
Q The initial experiments were carried out on professional criminals from the concentration camp Sachenhausen, I believe, people who had been sentenced to death. How many people were that?
A I have told you what the instructions were with reference to the experiments. We started with people under death sentences and repeatedly I had the assurance that my conditions would be applied, and to my knowledge on the 12, 13 and 14 of July, approximately, there were three occasions when five people were dealt with in a preliminary experiment.
Q These experiments were also carried out in Ravensbrueck, weren't they?
A They dealt with men coming to Ravensbrueck from Sachenhausen. In Ravensbrueck, They were kept in some small camp outside, because I do know that dressings were applied outside the women's camp, but that they were brought in for the operation and that there was a separated section in the women's sick bay, something I also know. Also the actual operations took place in the same department in which the others took place but I think the dressings were changed outside the camp and there was a perpetual traveling back and forth.
Q And what was the detailed instructions which you gave?
A These instructions were quite simple. We had a clear cut order. Certain preparations, the value of which was for the work at the front, were to be checked quite from the beginning.