AAlso they were totally different in personality and philosophy. Dr. Conti was a fanatic opponent to the indulgence in alcohol and nicotine, whereas Dr. Blome took a moderate attitude toward such indulgence. Dr. Conti was very ambitious and distrusted even his closest collaborators, particularly Dr. Blome. Dr. Blome on the other hand liked to pursue a direct path in all matters, to speak frankly and was above all not ambitious, and consequently did not undertake jobs which were not within his competence, that which Dr. Conti would do, and in general he was mere tolerant and moderate. He had an open heart toward all of his co-workers and subordinates.
Q Dr. Kosmehl, if I understand you correctly you assume that the relationship between Dr. Conti and Dr. Blome was so tense one cannot assume that Dr. Conti informed his deputy, Dr. Blome, of everything? Can you say yes or no?
A I can absolutely answer this by saying that Dr. Conti not only did not work well together with Dr. Blome, but deliberately refrained from informing him on all important matters.
Q Dr. Kosmehl, I should like to ask one last question on the subject of euthanasia. Now on the basis of the trial we know that the execution of the euthanasia program was in the hands of the amtsaerzte and directors of the insane asulums. Will you please tell us were these official doctors and directors of the insane asylums under the Reich Chamber of Physicians and the disciplinary power of this organization, or were they not?
A The SS physicians and SA physicians and physicians of the Reich Labor Service, the official doctors (Amtsaerzte) were not under the disciplinary power of the Reich Chamber of Physicians. They were subordinate toa special state disciplinary jurisdiction or to various organizations of the party, the official doctors were subordinate to the Reich Chamber of Physicians only if in addition to their official activities, they had A private practice of their own, and that was in individual cases possible and then if they committed any offense against the rules and regulations in their private practice then the Reich Chamber of Physicians with approval of the competent office could take disciplinary action against them otherwise not.
Q Then you say that the Amtsaerzte dealing with the euthanasia program were not under the Reich Chamber of Physicians and Dr. Blome. if these doctors received any instructions on statistics and so forth, did they get them from Dr. Blome or through the State Health Administration with which Dr. Blome had nothing to do?
A In general we did not receive such instructions at all because the Reich Chamber of Physicians or the main office for public health had nothing to do with German Health politics.
Q Doctor, I asked you whether the Amtsaerzte got their instruction and reports through the Reich Chamber of Physicians or whether they got it through the State Health authorities?
A I misunderstood the question. The Amtsaerzte received their orders directly from the State, from the Reich Ministry of the Interior not from us. The Reich Chamber of Physicians was simply under the supervision of the Reich Ministry of the Interior but had nothing to do with it actually.
Q And if these public officials of the medical administration, the Amtsaerzte and heads of the insane asylums, sent trports in, than the Reich Chamber of Physicians did not see these reports?
A Under no circumstances did the reports of the Amtsaerzte group the Reich Chamber of Physicians. Such reports went to their superiors, along the official channels to tine ministry of the interior.
Q Dr. Kosmehl, in connection with your description of the relationship between Dr. Conti and Dr. Blome, I am interested in one other thing, because we have heard an expert who made several disguised charges against Dr. Blome, and made Dr. Blome responsible for conditions in the medical profession, in particular, the elimination of Jewish doctors step by step from practice, did Dr. Blome have any part in these measures? I am referring to the limitations imposed on the Jewish doctors, and then the regulations, they had to use the name Israel, and they had to wear two Star of David, and so forth. Were these orders of the Reich Chamber of Physicians and did Dr. Blome have anything to do with them, and if so, how?
A Dr. Blome did not have any part in these things. Also measures on the part of the Reich Chamber of Physicians or the office for public health were not taken against Jews. After Gustloff was murdered in Switzerland and von Rath in Paris, repirsal measures were introduced against Jews and also measures to eliminate Jewish doctors. The Reich Doctor, rather Dr. Conti, was commissioned at that time to carry out the necessary regulations in this field, and he commissioned in turn not Dr. Blome, but a certain Dr. Grothe in Berlin, who was the leader of the Kassenaerztlichen Vereinigung of Germany, an independent organization for panel doctors within the Reich Chamber of Physicians, which advised the German population, so far as they were subject to social security, and among the population the Jews also. Dr. Grothe at that time carried out these measures on orders from Dr. Conti, and I can remember that the Reich Chamber of Physicians in Munich, and thus also Dr. Blome, like all referents in Munich, received these orders as an accomplishment fact but in working them out Dr. Blome was not in any way involved.
Q Do you know, Dr. Kosmehl, where these regulations originated, these restrictions on the Jewish doctors, and at a later time the exclusion of Jewish doctors from practice, the regulations about the name Israel, the Star of David and so forth?
AAs far as I know these measures originated with a government office and not from the organization of the doctors themselves, but applied not only to t he doctors but to the whole of the national economy.
Than, in other words, the Reich Chamber of Physicians was merely an executive organ?
AAs I just said the Reich Chamber of Physicians had nothing to with these things, but simply was the Physicians' Union in Germany, and because it had to do with social security it was the executive office for carrying out these measures, and perhaps Dr. Conti suggested Dr. Grote as the leader since he seemed a particularly good person to carry them out.
There was a directive at the Reich Chamber of Physicians that had a per manent deputy and that he occasionally can give someone a special assignment, and that was the case here just as earlier Dr. Grothe became the leader of the public office of the Chamber of Physicians in Berlin. Also in other cases this path was pursued.
Q Dr. Kosmehl, do you know that in the course of years the relations between Dr. Blome and the Reich leader of physicians, Dr. Conti, became so tense that at the end Dr. Blome even spoke at public meetings of doctors against the plans of Dr. Conti? And, when was this?
A In the course of the years the relationship between Drs. Conti and Blome became worse and worse. The reason for this was that, aside from personality differences, they differed in their opinion on basic matter Dr. Blome was interested in the removal of physicians in general from the influence of the party, to keep physicians clear of politics altogether whereas, Conti construed his office as Chief Health Officer as purely polite Thus already in 1941 Dr. Conti, for personal advantages made a compromise with Dr. Ley, who at that time was planning a health program for the whole German people. In this it was provided that all Germans, not only workers, also those privately insured, should be brought under a unified national insurance program. And, in connection with this, of course, private insurance should cease to exist so that it would not be possible to choose the physical one wanted freely. Now, of course, all these matters affected the German physicians very intimately. Dr. Blome objected and opposed energetically these plans of Dr. Conti. They quarreled not only on this matter, but also turned to the Party Chancellery for assistance, and Dr. Blome did receive assistance from the Party Chancellery in his opposition to Conti's plans and Dr. Ley's plans. At that time Dr. Blome was commissioned by Borma*** perhaps without Conti's knowledge, to work against these plans, and Blome so with the jurists in the Party Chancellery. Blome also called public meetings of German physicians, and there openly opposed these plans for the socialization of medicine, for making physicians officials in the group, and so on. It was also planned in this program to appoint a number of physicians for a certain number of Germans and to give them official position Blome, as I say, brought these matters up in public meetings, and I attended one in Munich and saw with what enthusiasm most of the German physicians greeted Dr. Blome's remarks, seeing him as a representative of their intere I know also that because of these open meetings Dr. Blome had great troubles with Dr. Ley, who did not want Blome to interfere openly in these matters.
Blome was forced by Ley at that time to break off his plan for public meetings which he had planned for many large cities. He had already spoken in Hamburg and Duesseldorf. Because of these meeting Dr. Ley wanted to bring Blome before a Party Court, charging him with carrying on activities prejudicial to the Party. But, because of Dr. Bormann's intercession this proceedings was dropped.
Q Witness, you said that Dr. Blome approached the Party Chancellery for support in his battle for the free selection of the physician. That is, the right for every patient to call in the eoctor he wishes, and also in his struggle against socialization of the medical profession. Now, did you learn that thereupon that Dr. Conti gave an order that Dr. Blome should no longer go to higher Party agencies or to the Ministry for information and could net report undesirable conditions?
A. Yes, I know that. This was in about 1942 or 1943; then Dr. Conti issued an order that all the specialists in his office in Munich and Berlin, according to which it was forbidden for an expert or a specialist to turn directly to a Reich Minister, Reichsleiter, or a Gauleiter. Included under this order was also Dr. Blome as his deputy. Whereas such orders had not previously been issued to German physician And, Dr. Wagner, on the contrary lot his physicians do what they wanted. This measure of Dr. Conti's surprised everyone, because it included Dr. Blome who was his deputy. We, in Munich at least often discussed this, and all had the impression that this measure was mainly aimed eliminating more and more Dr. Blome.
Q. Then apparently you assume, if I may draw the conclusion from your testimony, that one cannot believe that Dr. Conti informed his deputy of his own knowledge in all cases, especially let us say in questions dealing with the Euthanasian program.
A. I am sure that Conti did not do that. It was part of his whole nature that he kept such things to himself. It is also to be assumed that Dr. Blome was not informed of these important things because Con feared Dr. Blome's competition. In this context I must mention one other thing, which puts Dr. Conti's mistrust toward Dr. Blome into proper light. When Dr. Blome frequently objected to Dr. Conti because he was not consulted in important matters, Dr. Blome then withdrew altogether from political activities. This was at the end of 1941 or it might have been 1942. Dr. Blome moved from Berlin to Munich in order to devote himself solely to tasks that concerned the interest of German physicians, that is, first of all, matters concerning the Reich Chamber of Physicians and to devote himself to cancer research. It was particularly noticeable to all his associates in Munich, that at the same time Blome moved to Munich, Dr. Conti transferred two physicians from Berlin to Munich who enjoyed his particular confidences.
These were Dr. Roehrs and Dr. Schuetz.
Q. Dr. Roehrs and Dr. Schuetz?
A. That's right. The latter had connections with the Gestapo within the scope of the main office for Public Health under Dr. Conti, we noticed that every week packages with mail came to these two gentlemen in unusual manner from Berlin at Conti's office, and these were either sent by courier or in special envelopes on which was printed - Dr. Roehrs. Those were important matters of official business which were sent to Munich from Conti's office in Berlin to be worked on; whereas it was otherwise customary that all mail went through the official mail channels of the two organizations, namely, the Reich Chamber of Physicians and main office for Public Health and then opened, given to the specialists to whom it was addressed, so far as it was not secret or confidential matter. In this case with these special envelopes this was not the case. Those two workers also led us other associates to believe that it was their particular job to supervise the offices in Munich, and to isolate Dr. Blome from all important occur rences and so far as I can judge they wore largely successful in this Thus I remember a case which concerned the reformation of German social security, in other words, a field in which German physicians were most imme mately interested.
In a matter so important as this, Dr. Conti stated his position in Berlin to the Reich Ministry of Labor and to the Party leadership without saying a word about this to his Deputy, Dr. Blome. This occurrence, like the previous ones, led to a fight between the two men. Dr. Blome, as I know from hearing it from him himself, expressed himself not only to Conti to Dr. Bormann in the Party Chancellery and put all his offices at their disposal. Under these conditions he did not want to carry on any further official activity. In other words, he wanted to resign. Neither Dr. Conti no Bormann accepted his resignation on the grounds that this was war time and that everyone should remain at his post and do what he was assigned.
Q Dr. Kosmehl, do you know that Dr. Conti went so far as to issue written instructions to the personnel of the Reich Chamber of Physicians say that Dr. Blome was to deal only with unimportant things - that all important matters were under Dr. Conti himself?
A I know of such an order. I saw a memorandum of Dr. Conti's persona ly. It was specifically mentioned in this memorandum to Dr. Blome, that Dr. Conti reserved for himself all important matters and that Dr. Blome was empowe ed only to deal with incidental and unimportant matters himself. On the b**** of this memorandum, Dr. Blome repeatedly said to us, his associates in Munich that this was enough for them, that he no longer wanted to work under these conditions. He wanted to return to his private practice, or devote himself to cancer research exclusively. He was so serious in this intention that we had doubt that he would carry it out. We specialists in Munich, who belonged to had inner circle of friends, then tried to persuade Dr. Blome that this step was impossible. We pointed out to him that he would be betraying German physics if he withdrew when Dr. Conti was not concerning himself in the interests of German physicians at all. It was an open secret that Dr. Conti, as Reich Hess Leader, paid more attention to German midwives - his mother was leader then he did to German physicians. Dr. Blome had an open mind in this matter.
so remained in his official capacity.
Q Dr. Kosmehl, do you know that Dr. Conti repeatedly attempted to have Dr. Blome eliminated completely from his offices? If I am not mistaken, this was with the aid of a certain Dr. Kaufmann. What do you know about the
A That is correct. I have already said that the relationship between these two men got worse from year to year. After Dr. Blome ceased concerning himself with political matters altogether - as early as 1940 - he went into cancer research very deeply, and later devoted himself to tuberculosis and wrote scientific papers in these fields which were written for the State as the Party offices. He pointed out to the Party that these two sicknesses of more human lives than any other diseases, and he wanted to inaugurate, with help of scientific research, a movement to assist people sick with these diseases. He also informed Dr. Conti of what he was planning because he pre sumed that Conti would leave him a free hand in this; but when Dr. Conti say this material he interfered immediately and forbade Dr. Blome to send these papers, that he had written, to Hitler or to Party offices. He asked him to give these papers to himself Dr. Conti, so that Dr. Conti could transmit to signed with his name and give them to Hitler. It is understandable to Dr. Blome objected to this. On the other hand, it was in the very nature of Dr. Conti that he answered that in political spheres he had had success in many different branches, and it was obvious that he wanted to take all the credit this work of Dr. Blome's. Dr. Blome then, in opposition to Conti's instruction showed his paper to Dr. Bormann with the request that it be transmitted to Hitler and informed Dr. Conti of what he had done afterwards through a cop* In order to eliminate Dr. Blome, Dr. Conti had earlier taken a Gauamtsleit from Steyermark; namely, Dr. Kaufmann, with him to Berlin as his personel adviser, particularly in the important matter of Dr. Ley's health measures. Kaufmann was to be his advisor in this matter and Dr. Kaufmann was able. *** course of years, to gain Dr. Conti's complete confidence, and he exercise this influence in all fields and ruled Dr. Conti, in all these fields. At the end 1943, or the beginning of 1944, Dr. Conti gave a regulation to all collaborate in Munich and Berlin in which it was stated that all important matters should first be submitted to Dr. Kaufmann, and, only via Kaufmann, should they pr** to the individual specialists.
It was specifically emphasized here that Dr. Conti's two deputies - Dr. Blome for the Reich Chamber of Physicians and the office for Public Health, and, on the other hand, Dr. Grothe as the leader the Kassenaerztliche Vereinigung Deutschlands (German social security-**** not exempt from this measure. This measure on the part of Dr. Conti of co** aroused the protest of both Dr. Blome and Dr. Grothe; and, in this matter to Dr. Blome turned to the Party Chancellery for support, and was successful insofar as this broad interpretation of Kaufmann's plenipotentiary powers limited. But so far as practical purposes were concerned, he retained what power he had had.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until 1:30.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours, 12 March 1947)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find t their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
HEBERT KOSMEHL - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION - Continued.
BY DR. SAUTER (Counsel for the Defendant Blome:)
Q. Dr. Kosmehl, before the noon recess you were speaking of the relationship between Dr. Conti and Dr. Blome. This was necessary so that the court will be able to judge whether one can assume that Dr. Conti informed his deputy of all details, for example, concerning euthanasia, and you told us that Dr. Blome repeatedly offered his resignation but that it was not accepted. Now I should like to know the following, if the relationship between these two was as bad as you have described it; then can you say why Dr. Conti did not simply dismiss Dr. Alone, he then could have appointed Dr. Kaufmann, for example, whom you mentioned.
A. I am dealing now with the question I spoke of this morning, when I spoke of Conti's being called as Reich's Health header and Dr. Blome as his assistant. At that time, as I said Dr. Blome was explicitly named Dr. Conti's deputy because it was wished that traditions, as established by Dr. Wagner should be carried on by Dr. Blome. It was not within Dr. Conti's power to appoint his own deputy, nor could he fire his deputy on his own although he certainly would have liked to.
Q. Then you think that was the reason why Dr. Conti had to adjust himself to having a deputy whom he could not agree with?
A. Yes.
Q. Dr. Kosmehl, you told us this morning that this Dr. Conti was represented by Dr. Blome in the Reich's Chamber of Physicians as well as in the main office for Public Health?
A. Yes.
Q. Because this term main office for public health' was not translated very well, the German expression is 'Hauptamt fuer Volksgesundheit'. I should like to tell you what kind of an office that was, was it a state office or community office or was it purely a party office?
A. Where, as the Reichs Chamber of Physicians was purely a professional society, the Hauptamt fuer Volksgesundheit was, so to say, the health office of the party, a purely party office which had nothing to do with governmental things.
Q. And since the party office had actually nothing to do with euthanasia, what did this Hauptamt fuer Volksgesundheit have to do with euthanasia?
A. Nothing.
Q. That is what I wanted to clear up so there could be no doubt here. Doctor, is it true that in the on conditions became so difficult that, for example, Dr. Conti regularly went away by railroad when Dr. Blome appeared and vice versa, because both of them wanted to avoid meeting and talking about official matters?
A. That is correct. I can say that both of them would rather see each other from the back rather than from the rent.
Q. In order to avoid this condition, Dr. Blome in 1941 is supposed to have made this suggestion that the two of them, Dr. Conti and Dr. Blome, should go to the front alternately so that one would, be at the front for a certain length of time while the other was at home, and after a certain length of time they would exchange places. Do you .../... know anything about that?
A Yes, I know of this, I heard this repeatedly from Dr. Blome himself, and he also told me that he had drawn up a memo randum regarding a conference in which he made the suggestions to Dr. Conti. Dr. Blome made the suggestion to Conti particularly because he had taken part in world War I from the beginning until its conclusion as a combat officer and not as a doc tor. He had been decorated with the highest decorations, whereas Dr. Conti had really never been a soldier. Consequent ly, he considered it necessary that Dr. Conti should go to the front since so many German physicians were at the front, Dr. Conti should also see what went on there.
Q Dr. Kosmehl I shall leave the subject of euthanasia then and go on to another point. In this courtroom the charge has been raised against Dr. Blome that during the Hitler period medical training, post-graduate training, suffered, that the ethics of the medical profession had fallen and that Dr. Blome was as deputy Reichs leader of physicians more or less wholly responsible for this degeneration. Was your knowledge of conditions so deep and so extensive that you can give us any information on this subject?
A I believe I can give information on this subject. It is not correct to say that the standard of medical ethics and medical post-graduate training got worse during this period. On the contrary, Dr. Blome received from the Reichs Leader of Physicians, Dr. Wagner, the task of building up medical post-graduate study, that means, in other words, that medical post-graduate training theretofore had been at a lower stage. The situation was that for many years many physicians had had no further training in their fields, at least so far as I know. It lay at the discretion of the individual whether he would do anything further to train himself or not. And so it happened that many doctors remained scientifically retarded 12 Mr-EBH-13-2a-Foster-Int.
Brown-vonSchon because they didn't want to take the time to attend lectures in matters that might have been important to them.
Dr. Blome put medical post-graduate training on an entirely new basis, both as a voluntary basis and a physician's duty. He set up medical post-graduate training.
Q. How do you mean, as a duty?
A. In the one case it was left to the discretion of the physician and was to be left so in the future whether or not he studied any certain field further. But for certain specific fields, and, as far as I recall, this applied particularly to specialists, certain arrangements for further study were made and this study was mandatory. If the physician did not attend he could be fined. This was necessary because a large number of German physicians had specialized in a particular field and did not know the human body as a whole organism but simply saw the organism as a whole from their Particular field. of specialization, and this was to be avoided.
Q. Then if I have understood you correctly, Dr. Blome issued regulations that general practitioners had to continue their studies. Is that true?
A. It is.
Q. Then where did this training take place? Is it true that in the individual Gaus or in the individual provincial offices there were such training course, do you know?
A. That depended. These courses depended on local conditions. They took place in university rooms or in health centers or Places like that. Also in Alrese in Mecklenburg such courses were held.
Q. Because of this medical leader school at Altrese, I repeat Altrese, in Mecklenburg, a special charge has been raised against Dr. Blome here. It has been asserted that it was the obligation of each doctor to spend a few weeks every year for several years at this medical school in Altrese. Is is true that there was this obligation to attend this school at Altrese?
A. That is not correct. Rather, Altrese, as you can see in the name itself, was thought of as a school for medical leaders - as a Fuehrerschule. Thus, primarily, functionaries of the medical professional societies were concerned here. The Reich Physicians Leadership used this school in order to instruct the local Physicians' leaders to inculcate then with their ideas, to make certain problems known to then, such problems as concerned the body of physicians as a whole.
To this extent one can speak of a certain obligation to attend, but let me repeat only for these functionaries among the physicians.
Q. For ordinary doctors who did not have any position as functionaries there was no obligation to attend this so-called Fuehrerschule?
A. No, none at all. Young doctors who had just passed their examinations or had just started practicing wished to attend these courses, but practicing physicians of long standing and specialists were never obliged to attend courses at Altrese.
Q. Do you know that this course at Altrese found great approval among the medical profession and that the number of voluntary applications every year was so great that all doctors could not/be accepted? Do you know that?
A. The last thing you said is true. The actual state of affairs was that many voluntary applications could not be accepted because of overcrowding.
Q. I asked this question, Dr. Kosmehl, only because a charge has been raised against Dr. Blome in this courtroom saying that attendance at this school was obligatory. Now, as to the scientific level of the German medical profession and German research, and the question of Dr. Blome's endeavors in this connection. Doctor, do you know that Dr. Blome took a great interest in medical post-graduate training on an international basis? What can you tell us about that and about his success?
A. In the field of medical post-graduate training Dr. Blome had, in my opinion, great success. He also worked in the international field of medical post-graduate training and accomplished a great deal. That is in the year 1937 there was an international medical post-graduate training course in Berlin in which 44 nations participated and which was carried out with great success. Scientists of world renown were there in various specialist fields and at this congress, on the suggestion of Dr. Blome, the so-called International Medical Academy for Post-Graduate Training was founded.
One year later, in the year 1938, Dr. Blome founded this academy in Budapest. Geheimrat Professor Borst was appointed president of the academy and Dr. Blome was unanimously appointed president of the Permanent Committee.
Q. Just a minute. You mentioned Geheimrat Dr. Borst. Is that the world famous cancer research worker of the University of Munich who died a few weeks ago?
A. Yes, that is the one.
Q. He was president of this International Academy for Medical PostGraduate Training - that is, a scientific institution for medical postgraduate training on an international basis - and Dr. Blome, you said...?
A. Dr. Blome was president of the Permanent Office, that is, manager.
Q. And one year earlier, you said, under the direction and responsibility of Dr. Blome there was an International Congress in Berlin, I believe?
A. Yes, in Berlin.
Q. Are you aware that this congress, which was the work of Dr. Blome, was attended by representatives of 44 nations?
A. That is what I said. That was 44. I know that personally.
Q. Then Dr. Kosmehl, I have only a few very brief questions to clarify the personality of Dr. Blome. Dr. Kosmehl, from your official activities and from your private conversations with Dr. Blome, do you know what his attitude is toward the medical treatment of Jews, that is, what it was. In other words, whether he thought that Christian doctors should not treat Jews or vise versa, do you know what he thought on this question?
A. As regards the measures that the State and not the physicians brought about to eliminate the Jewish doctors there was at the same time an order that forbade Jewish doctors from treating members of the German population and conversely German doctors could not treat Jewish patients. This was according to the arrangement by the Kassenarzte Vereingung, which I already mentioned before. But it did happen that a member of a Jewish community fell sick and no Jewish doctor was available. In these cases Dr. Blome, even in conferences at which I took part, repeatedly pointed out in opposition to other doctors, his opinion that it was an absolute human duty for a German doctor to take over treatment of a Jewish person under such circumstances, and if I recall correctly he also stated this at a Congress in Bad Elster in 1942, the question having been brought up specifically by the Reich Chamber of Physicians. I know also that Munich, I am not sure what year it was, a doctor once in such an emergency refused to treat a Jewish patient. The danger arose that he would be tried and Dr. Blome concerned himself greatly as to this question and reported on this matter. Dr. Blome saw to it that this doctor who had refused to help the patient was placed before a Tribunal and penalized.
Q. Now, Dr. Kosmehl, you just used the expression "kassenaertzliche Vereingung", a medical insurance unit. I have been told that the translation of this word into English is very difficult and on the basis of the translation one does not get a very clear picture as to what sort of an organization it was, you can tell me very briefly what "kassenaertztliche Vereingung" means, what the duties of the organization were, very briefly just so the Tribunal will be able to have a picture of what sort of an organization it is.
A. The "Kassenaertztliche Vereinigung" was an assembly of all those doctors who had the right to treat patients who were members of the national health insurance in contra-distinction to such patients who had money of their own or through private insurance called on a physician.
In other words, the physicians in Germany who were allowed to be members were included in this "Kassenaertzliche Vereinigung" and other doctors were not allowed to treat their patients. There were, I believe, sixty per-cent of all the German physicians.
Q. And the head, of this organization was Dr. Grothe?
A. It was Dr. Grothe, yes, whom I mentioned this morning.
Q. Dr. Kosmehl, you mentioned once in passing that Dr. Blome endeavored to keep the medical profession out of politics as long as possible. He tried to keep politics from interfering in the interest of the medical profession. In this connection I should like to ask do you know that Dr. Blome constantly endeavored in view of the fact that the Hauptamt Foer Volksgesundheit and the main office for public health were under the same person, he tried to have this fact changed. He tried to keep the medical profession, the head of the medical profession completely away from party influence.
A. Yes, Dr. Blome wanted to effectuate this separation contrary to the opinion of Dr. Conti, Reich Health Leader. As I said this morning, Dr. Conti wanted to stay in closer touch with party organizations and indeed went so far that the Reich Chamber of Physicians was to be coordinated with the party organization, thus for every gau that the party had, he wanted to set up a special chamber of physicians. That was not otherwise the case, be had, for example, in Bavaria, one chamber of physicians, whereas this district of Bavaria consisted of five political gaus, and it is Dr. Blome's achievement that the situation remained in Bavaria as it was, and the five chambers that Conti wanted were never set up. In Westphalia the situation was the same and in the Rhineland. The one physicians chamber of the Rhineland included several gaus and here Dr. Blome was unable to prevent Dr. Conti from coordination the chamber of physicians with the party.
Q. Then, if I understand you correctly, you say that this again was an effort to keep the medical profession free from the influence of the party?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, can you tell me with respect to the last statement, what did the party offices have to say about it? What did they do in order to retain their influence on the Reich Chamber of Physicians?