All I wanted to avoid now was that the witness could prepare himself to answer the questions which I had wanted to put now, and this is why I put these questions now.
THE PRESIDENT: You may continue the cross examination tomorrow morning. Pardon me, the adjournment will be until Monday morning.
DR. WEISGERBER: Dr. Weisgerber, counsel for the Defendant Sievers.
BY DR. WEISGERBER:
Q Witness, where were you born?
A Hanover.
Q It is correct that you were sentenced because of fraud and falsifying document?
MR. HARDING: Your Honor, I object strenuously to any continuation of questions of this type. They have asked the witness questions of this type several times. I think they've got their answers now.
THE PRESIDENT: The same question should not be asked more than once but I do not know it this is the same line of inquiry. You may proceed.
BY DR. WEISGERBER:
Q Were you sentenced before that time for fraud and falsifying documents?
A That I don't know at the moment
Q At the experimental station of Dr. Schilling you experienced quite a number of experiments?
A Yes.
Q And you can not remember the names of the visitors?
A No.
Q How did Standartenfuehrer Dr. Sievers come to your attention?
A Only because of his negotiations with Dr. Ploetner. At that time Dr. Ploetner was to go from the malaria station to the Ahnenerbe and it was on this matter that Dr. Sievers was there on a few occasions and had come negotiations with Dr. Ploetner. This is why I remember Dr. Sievers and clearly recollect his name.
Q He was to be included in the -- did Ahnenerbe have anything to do with malaria experiments?
A The Ahnenerbe had nothing whatsoever to do with malaria experiments. It was only Dr. Ploetner that continued to work on these natters.
Q Since you are so well informed about the contents of the discussion between Sievers and Dr. Ploetner, do you perhaps also know that at that time there were pectin experiments in Dachau?
A Yes, that is correct, I remember the name pectin.
Q And who was charged to conduct these pectin experiments?
A I remember, I think, that was Dr. Kunzengruber, a physician who was later released.
Q Did Dr. Ploetner have anything to do with these matters?
A Yes. I assume that at the time Dr. Ploetner took over the Ahnenerbe was carrying out pectin experiments.
Q Did Sievers have any discussions with Dr. Schilling?
A I know that he went to Dr. Schilling on two occasions.
Q Were these just personal visits or were they business visits?
A I can not say because I did not attend these visits.
Q But since you were in a position to observe anything so well, you may perhaps tell me something about the duration of these visits?
A I think they were short visits
Q And do you know whether there a correspondence, an exchange of letters between Sievers and Schilling?
A I only know that the Reich physician wrote to Professor Schilling stating that Dr. Ploetner was leaving us and was transferring to the Ahnenerbe and that Standartenfuehrer Sievers would settle the matter.
Q Can you state the year approximately?
A That must have been at the end of 1943 or the beginning of 1944; I can not remember exactly.
Q Well, that is the time when Sievers visited Ploetner?
A Yes, that is right.
Q Were so-called exhibition patients presented to Sievers?
A I only know that on various occasions they went to the hospital but I don't know where they went to.
Q Did they merely pass through the corridor or did Dr. Ploetner and Sievers actually remain in the hospital for any length of time?
AAt the office of Dr. Ploetner, an office which then belonged to the malaria station, they had conferences occasionally and I thin subsequently they went to the station Ahnenerbe, but I can not remember that in detail.
Q So if I understand you correctly, Dr. Ploetner and Sievers only went through the hospital when leaving the office of Dr. Ploetner and going to another part of the camp?
A No, another part of the hospital, the so-called Ahnenerbe station.
Q As far as you know, did Sievers have anything to do with malaria research?
A Sievers had nothing to do with us.
Q Do you know whether Sievers in a physician?
A I don't know that.
Q Now I am interested in how you found out about the name of Sievers?
A I found that cut because of the correspondence to Professor Schilling from Berlin, and it always was said that, for instance, today Standartenfuehrer Dr. Sievers would arrive, the one who is responsible for Ahnenerbe, and then we saw Dr. Sievers when he arrived.
Q If you did not know the names of many other visitors, it is rather remarkable that you just remember the name of Sievers.
A Between Professor Schilling and Dr. Ploetner, who was assigned to Dr. Schilling as an assistant from Berlin, between these two there was a strained relationship, and because Dr. Ploetner wanted to leave one way or another, we were interested in the matter, and when finally the notice came from Berlin that Dr. Ploetner was to be removed, the name Sievers was mentioned in that connection; and that is the reason why I remember the name.
Q Was Sievers present during any of the experiments?
A That I don't know.
DR. WEISGERBER: I have not further questions to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: At this time the Tribunal will recess until 9:30 o'clock Monday morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 14 December 1946, at 930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 16 December 1946, 0930-1630; Justice Beals, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: The Military Tribunal is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will ascertain if the defendants arc present.
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honors, all defendants are present in court this morning.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will so record.
Defendants' counsel will proceed with the cross-examination of the witness.
AUGUST VIEWEG -- Resumer CROSS EXAMINATION -- Continued BY DR. STEINBAUER (Counsel for defendant Beiglbock):
Q. Witness, this is a question directed to your personal data. When exactly were you born; what day and what year?
A. On the 17th of September, 1895.
Q. In Hanover?
A. Yes, in Hanover.
Q. On Friday you told us that you were the Kapo of the Professor Schilling malaria experiments.
A. No, I was never a Kapo acting at the Malaria Station of Dr. Schilling.
Q. Didn't you have a position which was similar to the one of Kapo?
A. We were employed in the laboratory of Dr. Schilling.
Q. You have told us that you were able to watch the proceedings in that sea water station from your barracks. Is that right?
You have told us that people were carried into the courtyard in stretchers. I am now asking you, can you tell us why there people were carried into the courtyard?
A. On various occasions I saw people being carried into the courtyard. Part of these people were sent into the barracks of the hospital because they were exhausted. In two or three cases I saw how these people, who were carried on the stretchers in that manner -
Q. (Interposing) We will talk about that later. We are going to say something about the morgue; we will come to that later.
On that occasion, didn't you see a photographer who was taking pictures?
A. I saw one in the courtyard between the laboratory and the experimental station, and I was able to watch photographs being taken on numerous occasions.
Q. How were the light conditions in these barracks? Were they sufficiently equipped for photographic work?
A. I can hardly judge that; the photographs which I saw were taken in the courtyard.
Q. You told us about a quarrel between a nurse and one experimental subject. I am asking you, was that at the beginning or at the end of the experiment with sea water?
A. I think it was at the beginning of the experiment. I now remember the name of that nurse. The first name was Max. There were some differences of opinion, and they fought it out in the courtyard. After that the nurse would -
Q. (Interposing) Very well. Can you remember the nationality of this Max? Wasn't he an Austrian, coming from Styria?
A. Yes, I think he was an Austrian, and he came from Styria. I think he was even a Gypsy.
Q. Thank you.
Can you not remember, perhaps, whether max was doling out the rations to the people justly?
A. I can't say that, but I think that the quarrel concerned this distribution of rations.
Q. Were you able to walk freely around the hospital?
A. Yes.
Q. And you had an opportunity daily to speak to the nurses and the experimental subjects, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Didn't they tell you about important happenings there, and not only the details which you have already mentioned to us on Friday?
A. After the early days of the sea water experiments these inmates did not leave their rooms, so that we were unable to talk to them.
Q. But you did have an opportunity to find out something about what was going on there?
A. Yes; we talked about various matters, but I cannot remember any details
Q. Now, the most important thing; did you hear that there were any dead there, people who had died because of the experiments?
A. I only remember from my own observations, that I saw how persons were carried down to the morgue from that station.
Q. But you did not have a positive report that somebody died?
A. I cannot say that under oath. I cannot remember that exactly now.
Q. Do you also remember that medical students were living next door to the barracks who were inmates too?
A. Next to the barracks, as far as I remember, there was this chamber, which I believe was formerly the pathological museum.
Q. Didn't you see any medical students there, walking about in their white robes?
A. Nurses, yes.
Q. Do you know the nurse who was an innate too? The name is Pielweil.
A. Yes, I remember that name. He was a young, strong man, coming from Vienna.
Q. Yes, I think so.
Now let us return to the carrying out of the dead. Did Pielweil ever tell you that any fatalities occurred?
A. I cannot say that now.
Q. Is it possible that the bodies which were carried in the direction of the hospital morgue were perhaps carried to the X-ray station or a laboratory?
A. The road to the morgue went across the courtyard; the way to the X-ray station was in an entirely different direction.
DR. STEINBAUER: I have no further questions.
MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal, our headphones are dead. We couldn't hear the last two or three questions very well. I suggest that we discontinue until the phones are put into condition.
THE PRESIDENT: It is reported that some of the earphones are not working. That had better be investigated.
BY DR. MARX: (Counsel for the Defendant Becker-Freyseng)
Q. Witness, you spoke about a Luftwaffe Institute in Dachau. I am now asking you did you see some kind of a placard or a letterhead where such a name could be seen?
A. No.
Q. Well, then, how did you find out about that name?
A. This name was mentioned among the inmates because the experiments that were carried out there were allegedly for the benefit of the Luftwaffe.
Q. Did you at that time see anything about Dr. Rascher, and at the time Dr. Beiglboeck came there, was Rascher there when Dr. Beiglboeck came or was he not? Did you know about Dr. Rascher?
A. Yes, I knew about him. I saw him daily.
Q. Did you see any connection between Rascher and Beiglboeck or had Rascher already left when Dr. Beiglboeck arrived in Dachau?
A. I cannot say anything about that.
Q. Well, I thought you had such good powers of observation.
A. The successor of Dr. Rascher was Dr. Kurt Bloetner.
Q. Did you at any time see a Luftwaffe officer talking to Dr. Rascher? Did you ever see them talking to him?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you describe them? Can you tell us something about their rank or how they looked?
A. I remember having seen two gentlemen from the Luftwaffe there. One was tall and slim and the other was somewhat stouter. However, I do not remember their rank.
Q. Were they medical officers?
A. No. They were Luftwaffe officers.
Q. Can you differentiate? Can you differentiate?
A. Yes, according to their uniforms.
Q. Well, did they have this yellow sign? What did the Luftwaffe officer lock like?
A. I cannot tell you that exactly. We had been told that this was Mr. "So-and-so," and the other one had another name, but we were never told what rank they had, and I cannot remember that.
Q. But you are sure that they were officers? You are sure that they were officers of the Luftwaffe and not medical officers?
A. I cannot say that. It had been said that he was a professor or something like that. I am not sure about it.
Q. Did you know that Dr. Rascher was in connection with the Institute for Military Science in connection with Ahnenerbe? And is there any possibility that you interpreted that institution as a Luftwaffe institution? Is that possible?
A. Yes, that is possible.
Q. So at that time there was no name of Luftwaffe Institute in Dachau, but what you wanted to say was that "I was of the opinion that there could be such an institute, but I am not sure about it," and you merely drew a conclusion, is that right, because if such experiments were carried out there? Is that a correct statement?
A. Yes, that is correct, and I did not want to express myself with reference to the Rascher Institute as "Luftwaffe Institute."
Q. Yes. That was me rely your way of thinking that this was a Luftwaffe Institute."
A. Yes.
Q. But if you were to be told that possibly it was not a Luftwaffe Institute, then you would still leave that question open, wouldn't you? 453
A. Well, I know that the Rascher Institute was called an Institute for Military Science, and functioned as such.
Q. Well, that is what I wanted to know. Can you say when you saw Rascher for the last time? Can you tell us that approximately?
A. I cannot tell you that exactly. However, I assume it was at the end of 1943, at the end of 1943. I think it was in the Fall of 1943. I cannot remember exactly.
Q. You said before that you had discussions with these experimental subjects. In what language did you have these discussions?
A. They were in the German language.
Q. Well, did these gypsies know German?
A. The gypsies that were used in the sea-water experiments could speak German.
Q. So you could speak to them in German, you and the gypsies?
A. Yes. That is correct.
Q. And when did you have these conversations with them, before the experiments or after the experiments?
A Partly after the experiments and partly during the first days of the experiments when they were still locked out.
Q. So what you want to say is that you spoke to them during the time when they were actually being experimented upon? We have to differentiate between various times here, first, the time when the people received their full ration and then after these eight days there were the real experiments, and I am referring to the time of the real experiments. Could you speak to them, to any of the experimental subjects at that time?
A. No.
Q. But you just said that you spoke to them during the experiments. When was that?
A. That was during the first few days when they received Luftwaffe rations.
Q. Did they complain at all? Didn't anyone complain about this? You said before they were locked out, but you cannot say that they were locked out -- how do you arrive at that expression, "locked out"?
A. Because these people were separated from the other inmates in a special room and could only speak to us partly through the window.
Q. Was there no supervisory personnel there?
A. Not during the first lay. At that time when they weren't being experimented upon yet, these things weren't taken so seriously.
Q. I still wanted to ask you how can you state that these experimental subjects at the time they received their full nourishment could make any complaints towards you?
A. Because of the uncertainty as to the purpose they were being used for, and they were afraid on that account, and they merely were afraid because they didn't know what their fate was to be.
Q. Well, if I understood you correctly they feared because they were in uncertainty, and that was why they spoke to you through the window, Mr. Vieweg?
A. Yes.
DR. MARX: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
BY DR. WILLE: (Counsel for the Defendant August Georg Weltz)
A. I have the following questions to you, witness: in connection with the experiments of the Luftwaffe in Dachau, did you ever hear the name of Professor Weltz mentioned? Can you remember that?
A. At the moment, no. I cannot remember.
Q. You, therefore, never saw this gentleman there?
A. I can neither deny nor affirm that.
Q. He has never been pointed out to you by other inmates?
A. I cannot say that at the moment since my recollection is a little weak because of other experiments taking place at that time.
Q. Can you recognize him? Is he here among the defendants?
A. It is very difficult for me since the gentlemen who were there were all in uniform, and I would not like to say anything which I cannot say with certainty.
Q. Well, as a result, I can conclude that you never heard the name of Professor Weltz mentioned?
A. That I would not say.
Q. But at any rate, you cannot say anything to the contrary; you cannot say that you heard the name mentioned?
A. I can neither say that, naturally.
Q. And you can neither say -
DR. WILLE: Well, that is sufficient.
BY DR. FRITZ: (Counsel for the Defendant Rose)
Q. I have a few questions to the witness. Witness, on Friday you showed good knowledge with reference to certain malaria questions, obviously on the basis of knowledge which you gained with Professor Schilling. I am now asking you to answer the following questions which refer to some very important details. During your examination by the Prosecuting Counsel you spoke of some regrettable incidents during which people during the course of the malaria experiments conducted by Professor Schilling had died. At that time you mentioned about seven cases, but you only spoke about one case in detail, who in addition to malaria had yellow fever and then because of a liver puncture bled to death. I am nor asking you to tell me something about the reasons for the death of the other six persons, the other six patients.
A. The other six patients were the so-called medicament death cases. One patient died as a result of the salvasan drug. The other one died as a result of the so-called Periphere experiment, and the four last onces died as a result of a Pyramidon experiment.
Q. Were the patients who after being released from the station of Schilling and who received relapses after that, were they sent back to Professor Schilling's station?
A. If they reported back to us, they were taken back to the station.
Q. In that case were there any patients -- did any patients die in Professor Schilling's department who later on had malaria or relapses?
A. Patients who were in any condition that caused fear that they may die were transferred to another station.
Q. Do you remember that the malaria tierciania is not on illness which causes death? 457
A. As far as I know, nobody with us died because of malaria tierciania but as a result of the drugs died of the side diseases which appeared because of the malaria experiments.
Q. Did Professor Schilling say something to you with reference to these death cases who were under his responsibility and under his observation, and if so, how?
A. In the first cases, thinking of the patient who died as a result of the liver puncture and the next patient who died because of the salvasan injection, Dr. Schilling regretted these cases very deeply, and he tried to prevent such matters as much as possible, but the last four cases, referring to the Pyramiden experiment, he was told that these patients were in a very bad condition. In spite of that, he insisted that they continue to receive the Pyramiden drugs -- I think it was three grams per day -- and when these patients came into a condition where they started to have delirium, they were transferred from our station shortly before their death.
Q. And now something else: on Friday you testified that Dachau received Anopheles from Dr. Rose's institute and that there was an exchange of correspondence with reference to the difficulties which you had in the breeding of these eggs. Do you know where Dr. Rose worked, on which institute?
A. I think that these letters were addressed to the Robert Koch Institute in Berlin.
Q. Do you know from this correspondence whether these replies were made by Dr. Rose personally or by his assistant?
A. That I cannot say by memory -- from my memory. I remember that among others, there was a reply from a lady who was in charge of the breeding of these eggs in Berlin.
Q. This is probably an assistant who had worked with Rose for many years
A. Yes, but Professor Schilling, I think, first turned to Professor Rose and the replies probably primarily came from Professor Rose.
Q. Can you remember the name of the lady?
A. No.
Q. Do you know who Dr. Schilling dealt with and had correspondence with in addition to Dr. Grawitz and Dr. Rose?
A. I cannot say that from my memory, and I could only way that he had a correspondence with an institution in Dusseldorf called Graefenrad or something like that, and he asked for the breeding of these eggs there, and we received flies from there, living flies.
Q. Do you remember the name "Rose" from before, or did you only start recalling his name when you were first examined?
A. No. The name "Rose" remained in my recollection because I, myself, was inflicted with malaria which was called "Rose". He had these various immunization groups, the so-called malaria stock which had various different names, and I was with a group which was infected with a so-called Rose Culture
Q. You have testified before that you received eggs from Rome. However, you could not remember the name of this perhaps Professor Vissiroli, Dr. Rosni or Dr. Raphaeli?
A. I think it was Vissiroli.
Q. Did you also receive these eggs from Hamburg?
A. We received no eggs from the Tropical Institute in Hamburg, but Professor Schilling had correspondence with that Institute.
Q. Can you remember in what year you received these eggs from the Robert Koch Institute, rather from Professor Rose?
A. That was in the summer months of the year 1942.
Q. You have told us about a number of eggs -- a number of these flies which you had to breed in the vicinity of Dachau. Were you present?
A. There was one such detail who had to do that, and among them there was an SS man and one or two inmates. That happened in the swamps surrounding Dachau during the summer months. There were various water tests being male, and according to the degree of these swamps by order of Dr. Schilling these waters were infected with a mixture of pig food. During the winter months this detail was sent -- went around the cellars of the Dachau Camp and worked on that matter. These Anapheles flies were then examined by our laboratories and were used by it for breeding purposes.
Q. Can you say anything about the quantities that were caught?
A. It varied in the winter; sometimes they brought ten, sometimes thirty to fifty and sometimes sixty.
Q Did your department in Dachau deliver any such eggs to other departments?
A On one occasion we delivered such eggs, but I cannot remember where.
Q I now come to the question of malaria culture. Where did Prof. Schilling receive his malaria cultures from?
A I cannot say that exactly. I know that he received malaria culture from Essen, from Berlin. That already happened in February 1942, at the time when I was not at the station yet. I remember that we had 12 different malaria cultures. I know that Prof. Schilling used one; and also another man used one, I think his name was Flugg; in order to give one such culture the name of "Flugg".
Q Can you remember the names of the other cultures?
A We had the culture ELMENSEE; the culture MOSKAU; the culture FINNLAND: I cannot remember any others. We had twelve different cultures. I cannot remember their names in detail.
Q What kind of malaria culture did you work with; was it QUARTIANA or TIERCIANA?
A It was TIERCIANA.
Q I want to tell you something about a few more names of cultures to see if you can remember any more: "MADAGASCAR"?
A No.
Q Vienna?
A No.
Q Horten?
A No.
Q "James"?
A No.
Q "Rome"
A No.
Q Sicily?
A. No.
Q. Sardinia?
A. No.
Q Ukrania?
A No.
Q Dusseldorf?
A No.
Q Tropica Paparode?
A No.
Q Millens?
A No.
Q Charite?
A No.
Q Schilling?
A No.
Q Did Prof. Schilling say something to you about the peculiarities of the cultures with which he worked in Dachau and that he could recognize them from hid previous experience?
A Partly, yes.
Q At the time you were there, were patients infected with flies in hospitals which were outside your department in Dachau?
A In my time, no.
Q In order to gain a new culture for the department?
A No, not at my time.
Q But you can no doubt remember malaria being used in mental institutions and hospitals for the treatment of various conditions; did Prof. Schilling use infected malaria blood, or did he send out any infected malaria blood?
A I can't remember that; I do not think so.
Q You, yourself, suffered from malaria?
A Yes.
Q When were you at the station as patient?
A On the second of April, 1942, I was sent to that station.
Q And since when were you active in the breeding of the flies?
A I stayed at the station for approximately 110 days. I was then released, and a few days after, I was recalled into the hospital, and was out to work at that station. But then the chief physician called me to him, on the basis of Dr. Schilling's wish, that I was to be kept at that station as an assistant in the laboratory.
Q How was it that you received these malaria cultures from the outside since you could have used your flies on patients in Dachau?
A These various cultures were only received from the outside at the beginning. Later, we used "Anophales" which we had bred ourselves; and we infected our own patients with that.
Q The last question: How did these malaria cultures get to you from the outside; were they in blood, were they in dry powder, or were they flies?
A Partly, there was infected blood; partly infected flies.
MR. HARDY: Thank you, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any cross-examination of this witness on the part of any of the defense counsel?
(No response)
THE PRESIDENT: Has the Prosecution any Re-direct examination?
MR. HARDY: Yes, your honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q Witness, do I understand you to say that Rascher, Dr. Rascher, was not at Dachau at the time of the sea water experiments?
(No response)
MR. HARDY: I will repeat my question:
Q Witness, do I understand you to say that Dr. Rascher was not at Dachau at the time of the sea water experiments?