Q. Before you discuss the personal department I would suggest that you first deal with the other main departments and that we come back to the personal department, and discuss it at the end.
A. Very well. The Main Department "Staff Leaders Office", (Stabsfuehrung), comprised the collaborators which were used by the staff manager when dealing with his disciplinary tasks. There is no special name to be mentioned in connection with that office. Then follows the Chief Adjutant's Office which received all of Himmler's visitors and in addition constantly accompanied Himmler's official journies. After 1942 it dealt also with military tasks as far as they concerned divisions of the Waffen-SS at the front. This main department maintained direct contact with the SS Operational Main Office (SS Fuehrungshauptamt) which was the highest operational office for the Waffen-SS. The head of this main department was SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Grothmann.
Q. I have one question to ask here. You just said that the Chief Adjutant's Office had direct connection with the SS Operational Office (SS Fuehrungsamt)?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was head of the SS Operational Office?
A. That was SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Juettner. The next is the Main Department "SS Judges". When in the course of the war the Waffen SS was built up, the SS and police jurisdiction extended largely. Himmler wanted to have SS judges in his vicinity who would be in a position to report to him about the current cases and who would be able to get his decisions. The head of that department was SS-Oberfuehrer Bender. This main department maintained a direct contact with the Main Judge's Department of the SS. (Hauptamt "SS Gericht")
Q. Who was the head of the office which you have just mentioned?
A. Excuse me. I only know the name of the first head, who died in the year 1942. This was SS-Oborgruppenfuehrer Scharfe, and I now remember that the later head was SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Breithaupt.
Q. Please go on.
A. Now we deal with the Main Department Police Adjutant's Office. From the time on when Himmler had become Chief of the German Police, which was 17 July 1936, he had a special adjutant who dealt with all police matters. This man maintained direct contact with the Main Department "Order Police" (Ordnungspolizei) and with the Main Department Security Police, the so-called Reich Security Main Office (RSHA). The head of this Main Department was SS Obersturmbannfuehrer, and Lieutenant-Colonel of the Order police, Suchanek.
The next main department only existed as long as SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Wolf was Chief of the Personal Staff, that is, until the end of the year 1943. The head of this department at the last was SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Heckenstaller.
The next main department, the Personnel Department, dealt with personnel matters of all members of the personal staff. I am sorry, I forgot the name of the head of this department.
Then we have the Department Awards and Guests, which originally dealt with all awards which were received by SS members in war or peace time. However, this department decreased in importance during the war or peace time. However, this department decreased in importance during the war and finally ceased to exist altogether. These tasks were then dealt with by the General Main Department, the SS-Personnel Main Office, the head of which was SS-Obergruppenfuehrer von Hert.
The last department was to pass special wishes of Himmler on to the press. This department was also to supply him daily with German press reports. The head of this department changed frequently, it was mostly a young journalist, so that it is hardly possible to name the responsible man.
Q. And now we come to the Personal Department. Rudolf Brandt was the head of that. Will you please tell me first how large this Personal Department was, numerically -- how many people there were?
A. It comprised between 16 and 20 people. After Himmler had moved into his permanent headquarters, four or five of these people stayed with Dr. Brandt, whereas the other ten or fifteen were with me in Berlin or at the Evacuation Post.
Q. Could you tell us in one or two sentences what the subject of the work of this Personal Department was?
A. I believe I can differentiate between four groups. First, all of the matters of the General-SS (Allgemeire SS) Group. Himmler had given the right to the 15,000 oldest members of the SS to avail themselves of the opportunity of approaching him at all times, directly. This was an opportunity which was made use of very frequently. In addition, in every case where an SS member had died or fallen during the war, Himmler received a report about his family's situation and what kind of help was given by the SS in that case. These events in themselves amounted to hundreds or even thousands during the course of one month. In addition, in cases where a fourth or fifth child was born to an SS member, personal congratulations were sent by Himmler. Himmler also approved every marriage so that daily there were ten to fifteen marriage applications which had to be submitted to him. In addition to that were the numerous presents which he gave--presents of porcelain, fruit juices, children's candles, books, and all sorts of other things.
The second group comprised applications coming from the German people. There were mostly requests for help or requests for advice in family matters. It frequently occurred that these applicants had other applications dealing in other agencies of the Reich, and asked for the support of the SS on their behalf.
The third group comprised proposals of all kinds. It happened very frequently that men and women, belonging to the German people, who had acquaintances in the SS, felt the need to tell Himmler about their thoughts of their suggestions.
The last group finally comprised the official correspondence, that is, the contact with all agencies of the Reich and the Party, and especially the contact with the other main departments, with the exception of the 4 main departments which I already excepted when speaking about the chart. We have to exclude 4 offices of the 12 main offices, that is, the Reich Security Main Office, the Main Office Order Police, the Main Office SS Court, and the Operational Main Office.
Q. Now is it correct, witness, that Himmler drew a short distinction ir the Personal Department between those fields which you have just mentioned, and the police matters?
A. Yes. It was one of his principles to make a strict distinction between these matters. It happened sometimes that our attention was drawn to police affairs by reason of the applications that came from the public, and I world have boon very glad to follow up the further dealing with these matters in the police sphere; Himmler, however, attached great value to so that we only approached the police Adjutant who had to deal with anything further.
Q. So that Brandt transferred all police matters to the man in charge?
A. All police matters were transferred to the Police Adjutant who had his own registry at his disposal. Matters concerning the police were not comprised within the general registry of the Personal Staff.
Q. No, witness, Brandt had to work with all those things which you have just listed?
A. Yes.
Q. As Chief of the Office?
A. Yes.
Q Was that a great deal or work?
A. I may perhaps clarify that by giving you a few figures. During the war there were, as a rule, 8,000 to 10,000 letters emanating from our department per month. Himmler signed perhaps 500 of these letters personal* never more than that.
Dr. Brandt signed perhaps 3,000 to 4,000 letters per month, that is, a hundred or more per day. In my case it was a lettle less and fluctuated between 2,500, and 3,000. The rest, about 1,500 were taken care of by my collaborators, and these were natters of minor importance.
Q. Now, witness, I should like to attempt to make it clear to the Tribunal how it came about that Brandt signed very important documents. Will you please tell us what a normal working day was from morning to evening, what observation you made, and what Brandt's active part was?
A. Apart from the times when I had to represent him, I often went to the Field Command, since I had to receive all the visitors in Berlin to whom Himmler wanted to speak personally. These were often matters concerning family affairs. I took the opportunity to report the applications of these people collectively to Dr. Brandt so that he could again pass on these reports. During these occasions I often experienced how a day of work passed for him. In addition, I myself was subject to similar conditions of work whenever I represented him. Dr. Brandt slept very little. He could already be found at his desk at 7:00 o'clock in the morning. Then he looked at his stenographic notes and at his notebook; in order to check whether he forgot any urgent request of the previous day. In addition he dictated a number of letters to his secretary.
Q What direct assistants did Brandt have?
A Brandt had a secretary and a younger collaborator of mine. In addition, he had an office messenger boy.
Q Go on and describe the day.
AAt approximately 9:30 the courier train arrived with the mail.
Q Where did the train come from?
A It came from Berlin and was destined together all headquarters in East Prussia. That is, not only Himmler's, but also Goering's, Ribbentrop's, and Hitler's Headquarters itself. Dr. Brandt then had to sort the mail. That is, matters dealing with press affairs, applications for marriages, family letters meant for Himmler personally. Also, his secret mail had to be sorted out from the other mail. And all these letters which were opened had to be checked in order to see whether they were to be directed to Himmler himself. Although they personally were addressed to Brandt they may still have required Himmler's personal attention. He often didn't finish that because Himmler often invited him to breakfast. Himmler slept eight hours per day as a rule. And since he was only in a position to go to bed very late at night, he hardly got up before 9 to 9:30 in the morning. The first one of his collaborators he saw on the occasion of his breakfast was Dr. Brandt. During that breakfast Himmler gave Brandt his first orders; to send teletypes, to register telephone calls, or to write letters sometimes. These are matters which Himmler had considered during the course of the night. Immediately after breakfast Himmler wanted to see his entire mail so that Brandt was always pressed for time because he couldn't deal with that before breakfast. In addition he had to report about his own mail, too. Himmler was in the habit of wanting to decide all matters by himself and, therefore, this mail comprised a number of handwritten letters, the contents of which were reported to him by Brandt since the reading of these letters would have taken up too much of Himmler's time. Afterwards - well, now we are almost approaching noon time and Brandt had to take care of orders given to him during breakfast and, in addition, register telephone conversations and look through the rest of the mail and sort it out. Lunch was usually at 1400 hours.
During that Himmler, for the first time, saw all these persons whom he ordered to attend conferences for that day. Lunch mostly lasted for three quarters of an hour. Then Brandt usually got into difficulties with time because, on the one side, the mail coming from the Ministry of the Interior was just coming to his desk and, in addition, the visitors which had been ordered to see Himmler, in overestimation of Dr. Brandt, personally thought that they owed him a visit, too. It was often painful to watch how Dr. Brandt, who himself wasn't very versatile, who was rather awkward, and in addition didn't have much opportunity to tell these people how little time he really had for them. In addition the gentlemen from the various offices waited, who had brought the mail to Himmler's office and who wanted to speak about a number of details. Dr. Brandt could only help himself by writing all these matters into his stenographic note book, hoping that when bringing this mail t Himmler he would find the right note at the right moment.
Q Now, when did Himmler dictate his letters?
A That varied, His quietest time of work was either late at night, but he really didn't like to dictate then because he didn't want to overburden his secretary. He mostly dictated during the morning hours, after Dr. Brandt had already brought his mail to him. He often dealt with it immediately, and so it happened that the letters which were written by the secretary during the course of the afternoon only received Himmler's signature at the last moment when the messenger already waited for the mail to go to Berlin. Himmler attached value to mail being transported in the speediest manner. Dr. Brandt received the file of letters which were signed by Himmler only at the very last moment, and was then able to sign the copies. Himmler sent often many letters simultaneously to a number of agencies but he only signed one and left the rest to Dr. Brandt or me during the time I represented Brandt. It was often only possible to sign very hastily since the messengers were already waiting at the train. I can recall a number of cases where the train had either to be stopped, although that of course was a difficult matter because the train was also a train meant for Hitler, Goering and Ribbentrop, as I mentioned before;
or that we had to sand a car to catch up with the train, a car that had to cover hundreds of kilometers at a time, to catch up with same train at some other station. The telephone conversations of Dr. Brandt were extremely numerous. I can remember that during the time I represented him, I once had between sixty and seventy telephone conversations, and it is to be assumed that the number of telephone conversations in the case of Brandt at least was equality high.
Q Now, witness, you said that secret mail was also received and that this secret mail was shown to Himmler immediately. Is that true?
A Yes. Himmler attached great value to receiving mail without delay.
Q Now, after such secret mail arrived, it was possibly shown to Rudolf Brandt immediately?
A Yes, The folders were opened, and the mail contained therein was put on Dr. Brandt's desk, and he then saw to it that the top secret matters were immediately turned over to Himmler's batch of mail, inasmuch as these top secret matters were addressed to Himmler personally. Of course, there were top secret matters addressed to Dr. Brandt, which he himself opened. In the case of secret mail the following measures were applied: In the cases where the letters bore Himmler's address, and only the secret stamp then Dr. Brandt would open them. If, however, in addition they bore the remark "personal" then they were treated as very top secret matters (Geheime Reichssachen).
Q By personally, you mean for Himmler personally?
A Yes, in that the address read to "Heinrich Himmler, personally." Q Now, witness, you observed how Rudolf Brandt worked daily. Can you tell us in what way he dealt with this mail which you say was very extensive? Could one say that in general he studied the incoming letters, principally as one looks at a letter which one receives in the course of a day, that he considered them and reached a decision? Or what are your observations?
A Considering the extent of the incoming mail which alone was submitted by us, because, in addition to having to consider the letters coming from the ministry office, and considering the great value which Himmler attached to receiving the letters immediately, it was completely out of the question for him to read all these things.
In the rule, and that was true in my case, too, he merely read the most important words, and once he fund out that this letter was meant for Himmler personally he put it aside immediately. Mail which was really read by Dr. Brandt, as far as I observed, comprised all these letters which he didn't have to submit. He was able only to look through these letters late at night, mostly after supper. Then he also dealt with dictation as far as he himself had to dictate any letters.
Q Now, how about the outgoing mail? The letters which Himmler signed personally which were sent by Rudolf Brandt, be it a copy of an accompanying letter, to third persons? Did you assume something of the same nature or what were your observations here?
A. I already attempted to describe what the procedure was with those signatures which Himmler made before the departure of the courier train. There as a rule it was impossible to study these orders or letters by Himmler. It sufficed for us to see that Himmler has given his signature. After that he expected us to take the rest of the work from him and sign the copies meant for other offices.
A. But you concede that Rudolf Brandt read more carefully the letters which were addressed to him?
A. As far as he did not recognize already in the morning when working at the letters that his address was only used instead of Himmler's address, and so far as he did not submit the letters which were directed to him, he read it, but he only had time to do that late at night.
Q. Did you observe that Himmler dictated letters and then told the secretary she was not to sign it with Himmler's name but the name of Rudolf Brandt, and why did he do that, if he did?
A. I had that experience at first in my case. I was very surprised at first to receive teletypes which contained orders by Himmler and bore my signature, although up to that time I had no knowledge of then whatsoever. That can be explained by the fact that Himmler made an enormous amount of decisions personally. This procedure on the other hand he did not like to admit towards men of a lower rank, that is, if he was not concerned with the chiefs of the department but just ordinary men in the SS.
Q. You mean to say if I understand you correctly that he put his signature on letters only if they were to important people of the Party or the SS?
A. Yes, that was the rule because they had to be people who even formally could expect to get signatures from him. Otherwise he often sought this way out. When I found that out in my case, I also make the sane observation in the case of Rudolf Brandt.
Q. Now, I believe we have spoken enough about the technical way in which the nail was handled. Now I should like to ask you what Brandt's position in the personal department really was.
It has been repeatedly said here that he had the position of an adviser to Himmler. Did you make any observations in this respect? What can you tell us?
A. I was once personal witness of one such a report on mail by Dr. Brandt when submitting mail. I was very uncertain of myself and I wanted to know how he was dealing with this report in order to get some idea of how it was done. I can remember exactly that on the one hand I was very depressed and on the other hand I was quite satisfied. I could not observe any advisory aid on the part of Dr. Brandt during that report on mail. The observation I made was that Himmler gave Brandt his orders in the same short manner according to the contents of the letter, as he did in my case too. I think that it is completely out of the question that Dr. Brandt was Himmler's adviser. I an convinced on the other hand that considering his extraordinary stenographic ability he was an extraordinary stenographer. Dr. Brandt was one of the most skillful stenographers of Germany. That dates back to his youth.
Q. Do you want to say anything else?
A. Yes, I want to supplement this description by citing an experience which I had in the year 1941, that is, after the war had started against Russia. When the war started Himmler prohibited Brandt from taking any female secretaries along with him. In that case there was neither a secretary for Himmler nor for Brandt. Himmler expected Brandt to use all of the male help of our office and deal with all additional work. At that time I was detailed to the front in Russia where I received a letter from Dr. Brandt where he complained about this additional overburden of work in a very distressed manner. I was very glad not to be there at the time and I merely sympathized with him.
Q. Now did he type these things himself or what did he do?
A. He then had to take all shorthand dictations from Himmler and then had to re--dictate them to one of our younger workers. Of course, he did not type himself.
A. How long was Brandt's working day?
A. It started at seven o'clock in the morning and ended rarely before midnight, sometimes even later. As a rule I only got to bed at one or two o'clock at night. Himmler expected us to be ready for work just as long as he was still up and was staying behind his desk.
Q. Do you want to maintain the statement that you have just made, even if one considers that Rudolf Brandt formally had a rather high position. He was a Standartenfuehrer after all and was the so-called head of the ministerial office and had a position of ministerial counsellor and an outsider hearing these titles would consider it quite unlikely that Brandt would be employed just as a first stenographer.
A. I am quite clear in my mind that this description sounds very improbable, but I can only describe it as it actually was. I hope that during the course of your further questions I shall have the opportunity to show because of what psychological reasons it is explained in Brandt's nature himself that this situation arose. But a great influence on that was exercised by the special method of work used by Himmler. Dr. Brandt, for instance, was never a participant in any conference. He would have immediately told me about any such event as being something extraordinary, or I would have heard it from some of the other workers there. It was the rule that during any conferences of Himmler Dr. Brandt night perhaps be called in to the conference room at some time during the conference in order to receive any order, or it is probable that after the end of such a conference Himmler would call him and would shortly dictate the points which came up during the conference. He would dictate the essential contents of any letters in cases where not Himmler but Dr. Brandt had to pass on the result of any such conference.
Q. What were your observations concerning the completeness of the contents of the files; that is I am speaking of the case where certain files were shown to Rudolf Brandt and that Himmler had conferences on the subject of such files; now I ask you whether the contents of the files alone, without knowledge of the conferences, would make it clear exactly what it was about?
A. No, the connection was only apparent in very rare cases, not as a rule. That can be explained by the division of these two registries. Himmler did not have to recognize any connections of matters from the files, he got it all during conferences, or it came from his own head whenever he had to give any orders. I was often very dissatisfied about the fact that so little could be seen from the files. I only cite as example the institution of the voluntary divisions of the Waffen SS, an institution which comprized members from numerous European countries.
Q. Will you please be brief in answering this question?
A. Yes, I just want to say I was often ashamed of having comrades tell me, "How come you don't know that, you are with Himmler." As a result from the files no connection could be realized. In addition, considering the huge influx of mail, very extensive correspondence could hardly be read, and they could only be read at a time when Himmler was already done with them and sent them back for registry.
Q. Now, witness, in the daily mail aid you see incoming letters dealing with medical experiments or medical research with the use of human beings?
A. I can remember one such case: Two Dutchmen thought that they had found a special drug against tuberculosis and then carried on accordingly experiments in Oranienburg, otherwise I found no indications which led me to believe that medical experiments were carried out on human beings within the SS. I believe to be able to say that these matters, of which I now gained knowledge on the basis of documents, must have been completely on the border-line of Dr. Brandt's sphere of work.
Q. Then how do you explain the fact that certain letters went through the hands of brandt and mentioned his name, and these dealt with human experiment, did that have something to do with his special high position or because he was considered a confident of Himmler; or what explanation can you give us?
A. I now have had an opportunity to look through the Documents here and I have had an opportunity to gain knowledge about the subject matter. I have been thinking for a long time now how it could have been possible that these letters did not come to my knowledge and I believe that I am able to say that on the one hand the extraordinarily strict secrecy exercised by Himmler played the decisive role and that on the other hand there were also few technical factors which have to be taken into consideration. I...
Q. Do you have something else to say then Mr. Meine? Then I should like to ask you about something else. You worked for years in the environments of Himmler and Brandt, now I should like to ask you what influence did the personality of Himmler have on his close environment including Rudolf Brandt?
A. That is a very difficult question for me to answer, for we have now learned how Himmler distorted the picture of humanity, how he violated the fundamental principles of humanity, the principle of which our entire European culture is based.
If I am now to state what influence Himmler exercised on those people who with pure conscience and pure heart approached him and got to know him more closely, I am forced to tell about impressions that I had and to cite experiences which are completely in contradiction to what terrible things we know about him today. Since May of 1945 when I was interned in a British Internment Camp, I asked myself more than once, and I considered seriously, how it could have come about that we had not realized these things earlier, how it could have been possible that we misinterpreted the character of Himmler so fundamentally. I asked myself whether I was the victim of an illusion, and it was a decisive question for my own moral existence to gain certainty whether I could rely on my heart or brain, or whether I had a.lso to run the danger of making such a catastrophic error in the future.
As terrible as it may sound today, I can only say that by personally dealing with Himmler, and by his utterances and talking there was no indicate which could lead one to recognize these terrible methods which he used in order to arrive at these aims, which he seemed to represent in such a pure and dignified manner before our eyes.
Now and again my attention was drawn to reports by the foreign press and radio, but the examinations which were carried on regularly on order of Himmler have always proven the incorrectness of such reports. I therefore regret to have to say that these report were no longer credible for us. In addition to that were our memories of the horror stories of the First World War, therefore, the reports of this last world war did not seen credible either. Himmler's personal manner was without fear. I experienced that during the heavy bombing attack in the year of 1944. He was always ready to help, always polite, always sympathetic toward us and he was always ready to speak to us and express his thought. Himmler was a brilliant conversationalist, at no time was he a fanatic, he was always generous and ready to appreciate someone else's opinion, that was true in the case of officers of scientists, officials or SS leaders. They often told me how happy we can be that we had the opportunity to work in the vicinity of such a man.
When Himmler developed his thoughts everything had a logical significance everything was a matter of course, he did not shy from approaching such questions which came up during the war to every responsible human being. It was often apparent how he helped his listeners, how he relieved them of the burden which was on them by merely expressing his thoughts. It was interesting to hear his attitude toward religion and the individual freedom of conscience human beings. He considered the concentration camps as a sharp instrument for the execution of stern political necessities. He said at the same time, however, that there was an enormous responsibility connected with him on that account. It was interesting to hear the way in which he saw the problem of the German race and how he clearly and unequivocally rejected the thought of the claim for German leadership. Everyone of his thoughts were enlightening and convincing and showed Himmler in our eyes as a man who with honest heart endeavored to deal with the questions of our times and was trying to find a way in which he could justify to himself and his own conscience.
I could prove these assertions by giving many examples, examples which I remember exactly. Since a growing young man, I wanted to understand under all circumstances how the world reflected itself in the mind of that man.
I saw nothing wrong in that.
Q. Did he talk to you about the question of concentration camps and experiments on human beings; did he discuss it with you perhaps?
A. Never about experiments. In the Spring of 1942 after having returned from Russia as a soldier I asked him about concentration camps. I told him at that time that I could not understand how we could burden ourselves with concentration camps and with all this police organization where we in the SS had to set a good example, and where the educational aim which we set ourselves in the SS was to extend throughout generations and was to use every bit of energy of the SS. He became very thoughtful then and tried to explain to me for what reasons the institution of concentration camps was necessary.
Q. Witness, may I interrupt you for a moment. Himmler was considered by large sections of the German population as a man of great severity and ruthlessness. I will not determine the year in which this opinion was held - but I ask you, was this opinion not shared by the personal staff -- by you and Brandt?
A. Yes, but we made a different experience personally.
Q. And you would repeat what you have just said?
A. Yes.
Q. Or do you want to explain it?
A. I want to continue in my description of Himmler. I wanted to say -
MR. HARDY: May it plea so your Honor -- this character reference for Himmler is immaterial in this trial. Unfortunately we don't have Keinrich Himmler in the dock. I think the witness should confine himself to testify pertaining to the defendant Rudolf Brandt?
DR. KAUFMANN: May I say something about that, Mr. President?
I almost feared that the prosecution would raise this objection - but then, I believe one cannot see this case properly; this case has not only an outer objective side but this case of Brandt with its many signatures on these terrible documents - has an internal significant side too, and one can understand it only - can understand how he came to make mistakes only if one sees under what influence he was. This witness does not intend to say anything about Himmler for which he cannot take the responsibility, and he sets himself absolutely at distance from Himmler, and he describes only what he has observed, and he tells us how Himmler, with his double nature, influenced his environment and how he was able to draw Brandt in his spell. Brandt became a victim of Himmler. That is one side of my defense as I see it, and I would not be able to carry out this defense, if I were not permitted to show through the mouth of a witness how this terrible man Himmler was able to give an entirely different impression of himself to his environment. And besides, we have nearly finished.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal understands the pertinence, of a good deal of this testimony as relevant to the opinion of the character of the defendant Rudolf Brandt. For that reason we have permitted the witness to continue to testify concerning Himmler but it would seem quite appropriate to suggest that it might have been fairly adequate and covered. Counsel nay proceed.
DR. KAUFMANN: Mr. President, I thank you. I shall go on to another subject now.
BY DR. KAUFMANN:
Q. Witness, you know Brandt for years; you were able to observe him daily, and I assume that you know him as a comrade. Perhaps you can tell us some observation of how he thought concerning the problem of humanity.
The documents which we have here in themselves are very incriminative. But what can you tell of Brandt's personality; how did you see Brandt; would you ever have expected him to take an active part in such crimes against humanity? That would more or less be my last question.
A. Dr. Brandt dealth with the numerous pleas coming from the German people, with great love. Doubtless he attacked great importance to see that not one of these pleas was overlooked, if several points were mentioned in the same letter. In the beginning I was loss careful with thatwhen I dealth with these questions -- and I was often corrected by him on that score. He often told me whether I wasn't in a position -- to place myself in the position of these human beings who, here filled with confidence, are expressing a plea and which I was just dealing with in a superficial manner. Dr. Brandt was always very anxious to see that everything was settle peacefully. He was anxious to see that quarrels were avoided. I was often in a position to observe that he preferred disadvantage to himself rather than causing disadvantage to anyone else. In addition, he was so modest in his way of life. Dr. Brandt never owned a car. He never owned his own house. As for salary - he, because he wasn't considered as an officer, was in a worse position than comrades of the same rank who were on the staff. He was also open and honest and at not time did I hear him say anything bad about somebody else in his absence. He didn't like such talk. He didn't care for slander. As for the thought that he would ever participate in crimes -- it shall never occur to me.
DR. KAUFMANN: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now recess until 0930 o'clock Monday morning.
