Q. Your signature likewise appears on that Document; doesn't it?
A. Yes, my signature unfortunately appears on many letters; there was nothing I could do about that.
Q. You don't know anything about that document or the Warsaw action either; I presume?
A. No.
Q. Then everything that passed through your hands; you just signed it and let it go on through; you were not even interested in reading it; is that right?
A. I had no time to read them; I had too much work.
Q. Than all these criminal letters, and we could introduce thousands of others, but we don't have the time, Doctor, passed through your hands ' unnoticed?
A. Yes, unfortunately that is right.
Q. Well, now when were you appointed chief of the personal department on the personnel staff?
A. Chief of the personal staff?
Q. Chief of the Personal Department in the personnel staff?
A. I was never officially appointed to that position. Yesterday I tried to explain that this designation, namely 'personal referent' was only created for technical reasons for the table of organization of the personnel staff and that happened in the year 1937 or 1938.
Q. Well now, when Himmler was appointed as Minister of the Interior, you then assumed the job of ministerialrat; didn't you, in the Ministry of the Interior?
A. I was Ober-Regierungsrat before that and six months later I was promoted to the rank of ministerialrat.
Q Well, now, as Ministerial Director in the Ministry of the Interior, were you in charge of a department?
A I had only the so-called Ministerial Office under me. That was the place where matters from the Ministry of the Interior went to Himmler.
Q Now tell me, how many employees were there in the Ministry of the Interior in Germany, Thousands, weren't there?
A In the Ministry of the Interior? I have no idea how many there were there.
Q Well, now, the Ministry of the Interior was the largest agency in the Reich, wasn't it?
A I don't know that.
Q How many Ministerial Directors did they have in this Ministry of the Interior, do you know?
A I don't know that either.
Q You are sure there weren't more than five or ten Ministerial Directors in the Ministry of the Interior?
A I can't give you the number because I don't know it.
Q Well, you were Ministerial Director in an organization that had thousands and thousands of employees, as I understand it. It is a pretty big job for an office boy stenographer, isn't it?
A I was Ministerialrat. These are two ranks below Ministerial Direct Director.
Q Well, even Ministerialrat, there weren't many of these, were there?
A There were quite a number of those.
Q You were Chief of the apartment, though, weren't you?
A Yes, it may have had that cuter appearance. In reality I had three experts working there and added their expert opinions which I passed on to Himmler. I was only what is called "Primus Inter Paris," and the designation "Head of the Ministerial Office" creates a wrong impression. Moreover, there were just as few letterheads reading "Head of the Ministerial Office" as there were letterheads reading "Chief of the Personal Referat." All of that shows very clearly that the designations in themselves are not at all in accordance with the importance of the position
Q Well, now, after you became Ministerialrat, did you continue in your position as Personnel Department Chief in the SS?
A Yes. That ran parallel to my other duties. This just extended my work.
Q. Now how did you happen to avoid, Dr. Brandt, going to the front and serving in the front with the Waffen-SS like every good SS man had to do?
A I didn't quite understand the question.
Q How did you avoid being sent to the front to fight with the Waffen-SS like every good SS man had to do at one time or another?
A Firstly, Himmler kept me. Secondly, I participated in the campaign in Greece with the Leibstandaete with the rank of an Overscharffuehrer.
Q Why did Himmler order that you be retained in your position and not sent to the front to fight with the Waffen-SS?
A I can give you no explanation for that.
Q Was it because of the duties which you fulfilled and the large burden of work you assumed for Himmler, that you were indispensable?
A He was used to my work since the year of 1934. He knew that I was at his disposal from morning until late at night. He knew that I never uttered any requests, and that probably is the reason why he kept me there because I alleviated his work.
Q Didn't the witness Meine state that you left and were away for one or two days, and Himmler sent out and SOS for your return?
A I don't remember that. I don't know about it.
Q What did Obergruppenfuehrer Wolf have to do with your securing your job with Himmler?
A When in the year of 1934 I belonged to the agency of the Chief of Staff in Berlin, I took a number of dictations from Himmler. That happened in January, 1934 when Himmler spent two or three days in Berlin. Wolf, at that time Himmler's adjutant, holding the rank of a Sturmbannfuehrer, told me that Himmler had sent his clerk to a Fuehrer school. He furthermore said that his successor didn't quite live up to expectations. Since Himmler had been satisfied with my work, Wolf asked me whether I would be inclined to go to Himmler's office at Munich in order to work for him there.
I agreed to that, and in this manner went to Himmler's office.
Q Now do you know that Obergruppenfuehrer Wold tells us that he was instrumental in getting you your job with the Reichsfuehrer? He further goes so far as to say that perhaps the only indispensable man in the SS is Rudolf Brandt. Do you concur with that?
A In no way at all.
Q For that reason -- or is that the feeling that Himmler had in keeping you and not allowing you to serve with the troops in the front?
A That I am sure is not the reason. That is exaggerated. I only did my duty. I was industrious, and Himmler knew it.
Q Now, Doctor, in regard to these affidavits that you have executed in behalf of the Prosecution prior to the investigation of this case, I wish to ask you a few questions. Whenever an affidavit was submitted to you for your signature, you had the opportunity to read it, didn't you?
A Yes. I already admitted that.
Q. You did read it, didn't you?
A Yes, I read it.
Q You had the opportunity to make corrections, didn't you? And on several you did make corrections.
A Yes, I did.
Q The interrogator didn't seduce you in writing those, or beat you over the head, did he?
A No, in no way at all.
Q No force was used on you?
A No.
Q You executed those affidavits under oath, didn't you?
A Yes.
MR. HARDY: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any further questions of this witness on the part of any defense counsel?
The Tribunal will be in recess until nine-thirty o'clock tomorrow morning (The Tribunal adjourned until 26 March 1947 at 0930 hrs.
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal I in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 26 March 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHALL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I.
Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
The PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you ascertain that the defendants are all present in court.
THE MARSHALL: May it please your honor, all defendants are present in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court.
Counsel may proceed.
RUDOLF BRANDT -- Resumed
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any further questions to be propounded to the witness Rudolf Brandt?
(DR. NELTE in place of DR. SERVATIUS who represents the Defendant Karl Brandt)
DR. NELTE: Professor Brandt asked me to put a few questions to the defendant wnich are of special importance to him.
THE PRESIDENT: Whom did you say requested you to ask him?
DR. NELTE: Dr. Servatius.
CROSS EXAMINATION (continued) BY DR. NELTE:
Q. Herr Dr. Brandt, in affidavit 4-4, dealing with the selection of concentration camp inmates in particular, on page 1 you say a number of persons from Himmler's entourage were well informed about the experiments. This concerns human experiments. And it says Karl Brandt, Grawitz and Gobhardt were called upon by Himmler as advisers in this question. In the name of Professor Brandt I want to ask you the following question:
Was Karl Brandt, or is Karl Brandt to he called an advisor of Himmler, and if so, on what do you base this fact?
A. He could not be called an advisor of Himmler
Q. Was he very frequently with Himmler?
A. I can remember only one time positively that I saw him at Himmler's headquarters.
Q. Was this in connection with human experiments or the selection of concentration camp inmates?
A. I do not know since I did not know the subject of the discussion.
Q. Now you say further a number of persons were well informed about the experiments. Was Professor Brandt included among those people whom you called the entourage of Himmler who were supposed to be well informed?
A. No.
Q. Then you also say the above mentioned people were members of the SS-Gruppenfuehrer corps, and the experiments were often discussed among conferences of Gruppenfuehrers. Did you ever see Professor Brandt in a conference of Gruppenfuehrers?
A. No, I cannot remember.
Q. Then for the statements I put to you, you have no factual evidence, nothing which could justify you in making such an assertion or to maintain it today?
A. No, I do not.
DR. NELTE: I thank you.
BY DR. VORWERK (Counsel for the Defendant Romberg):
Q. Witness, in the interest of the truth I should like to ask you a few questions, in particular, to know your own attitude towards the testimony which you have given in writing as well as orally during this trial. Yesterday you testified here that your written testimony, your affidavits, were signed by you under oath without any compulsion, voluntarily. Is that true?
A. I was not forced to sign them but the situation meant in effect that I had to sign them.
Q. Do you mean to say that you did not sign them voluntarily?
A. That is difficult to say, since my state of health at the time in effect made it impossible for me to control my own initiative.
Q. You admit that your oral testimony now to a large extent contradicts your written testimony?
A. Yes.
Q. Both testimonies were under oath. You admit that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, where are three possibilities, either your written testimony was false, or the testimony which you are making now is false, or both are false. Which of these three possibilities do you consider the proper one?
A. I should like to say that during the interrogations I was mistaken in many parts in the conclusions wnich I drew from the documents which were shown to me and from the statements of the interrogator.
Q. Are you aware about the affidavits, which you in part repudiate now, can be submitted in other *** ** evidence?
A. Since you put this *** yes.
Q. Are you also aware that in the basis on these affidavits in other trials a picture may arise which do *** correspond to the truth?
A. Yes.
Q. Now that is your petition; do you want to repudiate all your former testimony?
A. I can only maintain the testimony which *** made here now.
Q. Upon the charge could be raised against you of giving false testimony under path; now if that charge should be raised against you, what would you say?
A. I did not do that consciously.
Q. Thank you, *** further questions.
MR. PRESIDENT: *** question to the witness on behalf of defense counsel. There *********** may re-cross examine the witness.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions to put to the witness, Your Honor.
MR. PRESIDENT: There being no further questions to be propounded to the witness, the witness is excused from the stand to resume his place in the deck.
Is there any further evidence to be offered in behalf of the defendant Rudolf Brandt?
DR. KAUFMANN: Mr. President, I should like to submit a few more affidavits, which are in my document book, and two further affidavits, which I obtained later, but there are only three brief affidavits which I should like to read, and I shall refer to the contents of the rest of the affidavits. In my Document book on page 2, I shall read the affidavit of the witness Gottleb Berger. I identify this defendant as Rudolf Brandt No. 3; Berger was an SS Obergruppenfuehrer and a general in the Waffen SS. I shall read beginning with paragraph 3:
In my Document book on page 2, I shall read the affidavit of the witness Gottleb Berger. I identity this complement as Rudolf Brandt No. 3; Berger was as Obergruppenfuehrer and a general in the Waffen SS. I shall read beginning with paragraph 3:
"I never know Rudolf Brandt to be present when I repeated to Himmler, but I know that Himmler called for Rudolf Brandt, rang for him, and either dictated to him or gave him instructions."
This is on page 2 in my German Document book. Shall I read this paragraph again? -- Paragraph 4:
"As far as I could see, it was absolutely out of question that Brandt, in spite of his extraordinary industry, ever had a position of adviser to Himmler. For that he was far too small and insignificent. He had, according to observations I made over several, years, the position of a chief-clerk. I know that he was overworked. Being a loyal and industrious worker he put up with being burdened with more and more work which it was impossible for him to accomplish.
"I could not see that he was a confidant of Himmler either, for Himmler had no confidants. Anyhow, Rudolf Brandt did not belong to the circle of persons who had closer contact with Himmler. " And then I should like to read the last two paragraphs:
"I know that police matters were not dealt with by Rudolf Brandt. Himmler limited strictly the competence of his subordinates.
"Rudolf Brand's private life was a model of propriety; he always was helpful and decent. Therefore, with his soft nature I think that it is out of question that he could have taken part in any crimes against humanity."
Then there follows the signature and the certificate.
Now, I shall read the affidavit of Dr. Martin on page 11 of the German Document Book.
MR. HARDY: May it please Your Honor each one of these affidavits, eighteen pages of them, are in substance the same. I think there might be a more expedient manner than reading each and every document and each and every paragraph thereof.
DR. KAUFLANN: Mr. President, I intend to read only two more documents, which are brief.
THE PRESIDENT: The counsel for the defense may proceed.
DR. KAUFLANN: Dr. Martin says in Paragraph 4.
THE PRESIDENT: What number do you assign to this exhibit?
DR. KAUFLANN: Rudolf Brandt No. 4, Mr. President.
"I made the acquaintance of Rudolf Brandt on the occasion of my making reports to Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler. Rudolf Brandt was, as far as I could see, definitely in a subordinate position. If I had known his formal rank in the Personnel Department of Himmler, I would have taken him for a clerk.
"I relate you this as an example:
"In the autumn of 1944 Rudolf Brandt was called into the office of the Special train by Himmler by ringing a bell. I was there together with Himmler. After having made my reports to him, Rudolf Brandt entered the office and took shorthand notes dictated to him by Himmler. Himmler did not even ask Rudolf Brandt to take a seat. He stood at the table taking notes. After having finished with his dictation, Himmler sent him out again. The subject of my report was an economic matter."
The next document which I should like to read is the document on page 8 of the German Document book, Exhibit No. 5 from Medizinalrat Dr. Felix Kerstom. This is the same man whom the defendant, Professor Gebhardt, has mentioned; it was the Finnish doctor of Himmler.
"I herewith declare under oath that I have personally known Dr. Rudolf Brandt since 1939. He was always a properly disposed person, who was ready to help, and always strongly rejected any force or brutality. During my rescue work that I carried out in Germany during the war years of 1943 1945, at the request of the Swedish Government, and the Jewish World Congress in New York, with the result of having rescued and brought to Sweden, thoursands of people from Nazi concentration camps, I often came in contact with Dr. Rudolf Brandt. I found in him an honest and enthusiastic co-worker, and always had his full support in even the most complicated cases. This often placed him in a difficult position with Himmler. Without his unselfish and humane assistance, it would not have been possible to so successfully carry out this rescue work.
"Dr. Brandt was an idealist and knew no enmity and no hatred toward the Allies. On the contrary, and understanding with all nations on a peaceful basis was his goal. He often told me that he considered this war as madness and as a crime against humanity.
He was shocked at the megalomania and arrogance of most of the higher Nazi leaders, and deeply indignant over the corruptibility and corruption that was manifold in the Party, and said that his ideals had long since been taken from him. He (Dr. Brandt) had nothing in common with this National Socialism. The result of this was that Himmler isolated him with his work.
"In the fall of 1943 Brandt expressed the wish to me, after all these disappointments to find a way to retire from the Party and as a private individual start a new existence for himself and his family.
"From my experiences with him I have always considered Dr. Brandt as an honorable man. " Then the signature and certificate.
The next affidavit I shall merely identify. It is the affidavit on page 3 by Dr. Best, Rudolf Brandt No. 6.
The affidavit of Dr. Ficker on page 4; Rudolf Brandt No. 7.
The affidavit of Dr. Fitzner on pages 5 to 6; Rudolf Brandt No. 8.
The Hinze affidavit on page 7 is to be given the Rudolf Brandt No. 9.
The affidavit of Dr. Lammers on page 8 is to be Rudolf Brandt No. 10.
The affidavit of the witness Meehner on page 10 is to be Rudolf Brandt No. 11.
The affidavit of Hanna Reitsch on page 12 is to be given the number Rudolf Brandt No. 13.
THE PRESIDENT: Should that affidavit of Reitsch not be No. 12?
DR. KAUFLANN: I beg your pardon; yes, number 12.
The Schallermeier affidavits on pages 13 to 15 will have the number Rudolf Brandt number 13.
The Schellenberg affidavit pages 16 - 17 will have the number Rudolf Brandt number 14.
The two affidavits of Tiefenbacher and Herrgessel are not in the document book; I identify them as Teifenbacher Rudolf Brandt No. 15 and for Herrgesell..........
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has not received copies of those affidavits; if they are available they should be before us.
DR. KAUFLANN: Mr. President, then it will be best if I submit these two documents later; or will it be sufficient if I assign the numbers now and had the documents in later
THE PRESIDENT: The counsel may assign the numbers to the affidavits now, then attach the numbers to the exhibits when they are submitted to the Tribunal.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I presume that the prosecution may reserve the right to object to such affidavits?
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly they will not be admitted until they are admitted in the presence of the prosecution. The assignment of the numbers to the exhibits is merely tentative, but it might save some trouble if the numbers are assigned now.
DR. KAUFLANN: The Tiefenbacher affidavit will have the number Rudolf Brandt No. 15 and the Herrgesell affidavit will have the number Rudolf Brandt No. 16.
Mr. President, I have concluded my case. I thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will call the case against the defendant Joachim Mrugowsky.
(DR. FLEMMING for the defendant Mrugowsky.)
DR. FLEMMING: I had intended to conduct the case for the defendant Mrugowsky by first calling the witnesses to the stand. However, not a single one of the witnesses who have been approved have arrived yet, so that the procedure is not possible. Also I may point out in this case that among the witnesses there are two who are of the greatest importance for ascertaining the truth. The are the only witnesses who have been found so far who can say from their own knowledge what actually happened in Block 46 in Buchenwald. One is the Capo of the block, Dietsch -
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel in regard to this witness there was presented to me this morning an application that the witness be summoned to Nurnberg, and that application has already been signed and delivered to the Defense Information Center in the Office of the Secretary General.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I might add in regard to Otto Dietsch, I am informed he is to be indicted and go on trial at Dachau. How soon I don't know, and whether or not if will be possible to have him brought here immediately ---
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General informed me this morning that the witness would be available this week. The matter being urgent I signed the order and handed it to the Secretary General personally this morning, so that it could be accomplished at the earliest possible moment.
DR. FLEMMING: The second is the witness Bowes Mattitsch (?) who is one of the people who were infected with typhus in Block 46, and survived the experiment. He is in the English zone in a camp. I hope that the Secretary Gener I will succeed in bringing him here in time, and I should like to reserve the right to call him to the stand after the case of Mrugowsky is completed, if necessary.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may have that right. Counsel may inform the office of the Secretary General, if there is anything the Tribunal can do to expedite this witness it will be done.
DR. FLEMMING: Thank you. Then I will call the defendant Mrugowsky to the stand.
JUDGE SEBRING: Defendant Mrugowsky will take the stand as a witness in his own behalf.
(JOACHIM MRUGOWSKY, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows):
JUDGE SEBRING: You will hold up your right hand and he sworn.
I swear by God the Almighty and omniscient that I will speak the pure truth and will add and withhold nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE SEBRING: You man sit down.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q. Witness, please describe to the Tribunal briefly your youth and your course of study?
A. I was born on the 15th of August 1905 at Rathenow. My father was a doctor, a general practitioner. I visited the Realgymnasium in my home town and complete this school in 1923 with the Abiturienten Examination. At the beginning of the first World War my father was called in as a Reservist, and the first day of this war he went into the field as a doctor end was killed a few weeks after the beginning of the War. Through his death and economic collapse of Germany after the war, we lost our fortune, so that it was not possible for me to study after I finished high school. I therefore decided to learn a trade, and I decided to become a customs official. At the end of the inflation, however, many officials were dismissed. I escaped this by giving up my position voluntarily, and I entered a bank as an apprentice. I finished my apprenticeship. During this time I tried to earn some money by giving private lessons, so that as soon as possible I would be able to carry out my plan of going to college. At the end of my apprenticeship, with my own aid and with the aid of relatives, I was able to begin to study medicine.
Q. For what reason did you decide to study medicine.
A. I cone from a family of doctors. Many friends of my fathers were doctors. I myself at a very early age had a great interest in biology, which these friends of the family directed toward medicine.
Q. Where did you study?
A. I studied in Halle on the Saale.
Q. And where were you trained as medical practitioner?
A. In 1931 I took the State examination. Then I became medical practitioner at the internal section of the City Hospital in Kuestrin on the Oder.
Q. Did you have any specialized training as a doctor?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was that?
A. First I was assistant for internal medicine at this hospital. I had intended to become an internist; but I had to try to get to a university from the hospital in a small town, because as a student I had made up my mind to become a high school teacher. At that time positions as assistants at universities were very rare and very difficult to obtain. I was, therefore, glad that on the 1st of January, 1933, I obtained the position of an extra-ordinary assistant at the hygiene institute of the University of Halle. Here I had my specialized training as a hygienist and a bacteriologist, and I gave up my original aim of becoming an internist in this form.
Q. When did you qualify as a lecturer?
A. In 1937 in Halle I qualified as a lecturer in hygiene and bacteriology. In 1939 I became a lecturer in this field at the faculty in Berlin. In September, 1944, at the request of the medical faculty, I was appointed extra-ordinary professor.
Q. And what was your career after you finished your medical training?
A. Because of special circumstances, which I shall describe later, I worked outside of medicine for a year, and then I became hygienist in the young armed SS, which later became the Waffen-SS. From the beginning of 1937 until the collapse I held this position.
Q. What was your position at the outbreak of war?
A. At the outbreak of war I was hygienist, that is, expert for hygiene in the medical office of the SS in Berlin, and at the same time I had a small hygienic bacteriological testing station for the units of the SS, which I had built up.
Q. Were you at the front, and how long?
A. After the end of the Polish Campaign in 1939 the regiments of the Waffen-SS were incorporated into divisions, and medical units were set up for the first time. In the Division "SS-Verfuegungstruppe" I was given the second medical company. I was put in charge of it. I was in charge of this company for over a year and I was in the first French Campaign in 1940.
Q. What did you do at the front?
A. In the sectors of our division we set up dressing stations and took care of the wounded.
Q. Did you report for the front later?
A. At the end of 1940 I was transferred back to Berlin. Grawitz received me saying that now all dreams of the front for me were finished for the rest of the war, and that I would be used only specifically as a hygienist.
In the following years in spite of this I reported for front service four times, for the first time in 1941, after a very significant and excited discussion with Grawitz, which will be mentioned later, and in 1944 for the last time. But all these attempts were refused for it was said that service in combatting epidemics especially typhus was considered front service. This regulation was made at the time because the medical corps and the medical personnel had high losses from typhus at the beginning of the campaign in Russia.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, in this connection I shall submit Document Mrugowsky No. 40. It is on page 8 of the German and English document book. It is an ordinance of the Waffen-SS which says that employment of doctors and medical personnel in combatting epidemics resulting from dangerous diseases, leprosy, cholera, typhus, yellow fever, psittacosis, plague, small pox and abdominal typhus, typhoid, as well as the care and treatment of these diseases is to be credited as combat service.
I offer this as Mrugowsky Exhibit No. 1.
Q. What did you do in Berlin after you returned from the front?
A. I was expert for hygiene in the medical office of the WaffenSS which later became an Amtsgruppe in the Operational Main Office, (Fuehrungshauptamt), and in this office I was in charge of office 16, hygiene. I was also in charge of the hygiene institute of the WaffenSS which developed from the testing station which I have mentioned before.
MR. HARDY: Pardon me, Your Honor, but would it be possible for Dr. Flemming to provide us with the Gazette from which this ordinance of the Waffen-SS was taken?
DR. FLEMMING: Yes, that is possible. I can't do so at the moment, but I shall give it to the Prosecution.
MR. HARDY: Thank you.
BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q. What did you do as chief of office 16 in the medical office of the Waffen-SS?
A. As expert for hygiene I was in charge of all questions of epidemic control and hygiene, especially water supply and sewage in the posts of the Waffen-SS. If the investigations showed that some order had to be issued, I had to report to my chief, Dr. Genzken, and he as chief of the medical office decided what was to be done. He issued the orders as far as they were medical orders, or in the military field he had the orders issued by the competent command post.
Q. As chief of office 16 you had no authority to issue orders then?
A. No. For this part of my activity as expert I had no authority to issue orders.
Q. Now how was this matter handled in the institutes under you?
A. As office chief I was in charge of, first of all, my own hygiene institute of the Waffen-SS in Berlin and a number of other institutes which developed in the course of time. I was a disciplinary superior for these institutes and the troop commander, military commander. I had, therefore, the power to issue orders to them directly, and I had the corresponding responsibility.
Q. How big was the responsibility?
A. I was responsible for orders issued to my institutes which I issued myself. As hygiene expert I was responsible for the accuracy of the information which I gave my chief, on the basis of which he issued his orders and instructions.
Q. How did you issue the orders to the institutes under you, orally or in writing?
A. After my return from the campaign in France, my institute developed rather rapidly. The sections were situated apart -- they were not together in a small space -- and from 1941 on outside institutes were added. From that time on there was the constant custom that all important orders should be issued only in writing.
Q Why did you do that?
A It has been my experience that an oral order, the execution of which cannot be supervised immediately, is very quickly forgotten, or is distorted in memory. In order to be able to check exactly what I had ordered I principally always issued important instructions only in writing also in my own Berlin Institute to the Section Chiefs.
Q Did you give assignments to your associates who were not in Berlin by telephone?
A No, I issued only written assignments, which might possibly have been issued orally beforehand, but were followed by written orders.
Q Now I come to the organization of the epidemic control in the Waffen SS. The epidemic control service, in the Waffen SS was your field of work as chief of Office 16?
A Yes.
Q Since when was all of that epidemic control of the Waffen SS under your charge?
A From the end of 1940.
Q Were you responsible for epidemic control in the concentration camps as well?
A No, the concentration camps had their own medical service. The doctor in charge was Dr. Lolling. His competence in all medical questions and his independence he always guarded anxiously. In the field of epidemic control and hygiene, however, we were sometimes called upon by him to deal with definite specialized questions which were specified carefully in writing because we had the opportunity to make the necessary bacteriological and chemical tests. In general, aside from epidemic control, this dealt with the question of the water supply and the disposal of sewage. The results of our investigations were submitted as expert opinion in the form of suggestions. They were sent to the Chiefs of the Medical Service of the concentration camps and we had no influence on whether these suggestions were actually carried out or not. Very often they were not observed but very often they were.
Q How was epidemic control in the Waffen SS organized?
A Epidemic control was centrally organized in the Waffen SS in my hands, that is the central office was in Berlin. This was possible because the entire Waffen SS was administered centrally from Berlin. It was not decentralized into defense districts or Wehrkreise like the Army. Therefore, in the German Reich and in the occupied territories, which were designated as army rear areas, we set up specialized institutes which worked independently and which were responsible to the Berlin office. From 1942 on, we also had bacteriological field laboratories with the corps of the Waffen SS at the front.
Q Dr. Genzken was your military superior, as Chief of Office 16 and also as Chief of the Institute. Now what was your relationship of subordination that is, you and Genzken, to Grawitz?
A Dr. Genzken was my immediate superior in my capacity as office chief as well as Chief of the Hygiene Institute, and his superior was Grawitz, but only in the technical field, in the medical field, not in the military field. Grawitz had the right to issue instructions in his capacity as Reich Physician of the SS and the highest doctor in the SS, and he frequently used this right to issue instructions. On the basis of this right he gave orders and instructions to members of other staffs.
Q In 1943 you became Chief Hygienist of the Waffen SS. Before that, in addition to your activities as Chief of Office 16, and as Chief of the Hygiene Institute, were you also Chief Hygienist of the Waffen SS, I mean Chief Hygienist of the SS?
A If Grawitz, on the basis of his right to issue instructions, called upon me to deal with certain problems, I had to use this title, Chief Hygienist, but that was a rare occurrence and it was merely a paper title, if I may call it that.
Q You have stated that it was a rare occurrence for you to be called upon by Grawitz for a certain job, then I may say that only happened on isolated occasions?
A Yes, there are always certain definite problems which Grawitz brought to my attention, for example, whether when cholera appeared at the Eastern front protective vaccination was necessary, or if the execution of small pox vaccination which had been ordered for all members of the Wehrmacht was necessary also for the Waffen SS or not.