We decided who was in greatest need of being set free. We talked this over and then I went back to Hoven and told Hoven that such and such a man would be a good man to set free. Such requests were what I took care of as liaison man.
Q. Did you frequently turn to Dr. Hoven with requests on the part of other inmates?
A. No, I have to correct you. There was something of an official system among the inmates. Everyone had access to Dr. Hoven regularly. Thus regularly we made requests. It was not a matter simply of requests but of suggestions, and all this was done very regularly.
Q. Did it ever happen that Dr. Hoven refused a proposal that you made in behalf of the prisoners?
A. We made several justifiable requests of Dr. Hoven, but these more serious questions, particularly medical matters, were all reported to Dr. Hoven and I cannot recall that any one of them was ever refused.
Q. At what time did the defendant Hoven help the prisoners?
A. I have already said that Dr. Hoven did already at the point when Germany was being most successful in the war, even then Hoven often helped the prisoners.
Q. In connection with this testimony I show you again Schalker's testimony from Document NO-1063, Exhibit Number 328, Page 14 of the English and 16 of the German translation. I quote verbatim what Schalker said, "Later, when it was almost certain that Germany would lose, he did many good things."
Now, in view of this testimony, I ask you again, did the defendant Hoven do good things for the inmates only after it became clear that Germany was going to lose the war?
A. I have already testified and I reiterate.
Q. What do you know about the prevention of "Nacht and Nebel" transports through Dr. Hoven?
A. We knew if something was done in the political department or if something concerned either us as individuals or as groups. First of all Dr. Hoven succeeded in relieving some prisoners from service in the political department.
From the Czechs, the present Landesminister Dr. Dolansky, he brought us a number of things. But Dr. Hoven was a very precise informant, and so he came to us once with the news that there existed an N.N. commando. We didn't know what that meant, and we were told that it meant "Nacht and Nebel". We heard from Dr. Hoven that this was a horrible commando in Natzweiler, consisting mainly of Norwegians, and from the camp particularly Dutchmen were sent to the Nacht and Nebel commandos.
There were a few nurses among these Dutchmen, Masseur, Robert, then the well-known painter Piek, but there were also prisoners of whom the illegal camp management had said that they should stay in the camp. With this matter also recourse was taken to Dr. Hoven. Thus the camp management could not put prisoners at the disposal of N und N, and thus it was good not to get in touch with prisoners if they were a part of that commando. If they were in Block 50, they could be kept from being shipped to Natzweiler to the Nacht and Nebel commando.
Q. Do you know of other transports which Dr. Hoven prevented?
A. I can only tell you the broad outlines. Once a transport was standing outside the hospital with a few hundred persons, including all the old German political prisoners, Czechs of all professions, ministers, university professors, workers, members of parliament, and so on. I was quite sure that this commando could not go off if Dr. Hoven had not seen the commando. It was to be transferred somewhere to the north to Magdeburg, I believe, Magdeburg, Belsen. I sent someone out to Dr. Hoven's house with the request that he come to the camp. This was late afternoon. Dr. Hoven did come and immediately sent the transport back into the camp and said he wanted to examine the prisoners. Later we worked things out so that we could save the majority of the prisoners. We knew that this was an extermination commando because these were really weak persons and invalids.
Q Can you tell the court the number of people who were saved by Hoven from this transport?
A With the Germans, Czechs, a few hundred prisoners, it might have been two-hundred.
Q Who had ordered this extermination, the commando?
A That was certainly on the transport from the camp management, it was certainly a RSHA transport.
Q Can you give the Court the names of a few persons whom Dr. Hoven saved from this transport to Madgeburg-Belsen?
AAll professions hero were represented, senators, ministers, representatives, all sorts of persons who were in this transport. Dr. Hoven did not concern himself with the names.
Q Can you tell the Court about the release of members of United Nations, which Dr. Hoven brought about?
A Of the United Nation, not too many of the United Nations came into question here. It was out of the question to send a Pole home, so any questions comes only of Dutchmen and with Czechs at this time. Later, French and others were included. Among the Dutch, whatever happened about that, that took place at the time after I was in the camp, and so far as Czechs are concerned, from time to time three, four or five were freed, as I have already described, but Germans also were set free, as one or two always being let out from time to time. I have described those events already.
Q Please describe to the Tribunal how the defendant Hoven opposed the measures of RSHA?
A The general rule was the beating of prisoners, and the SS gave them beatings; so all of a sudden a prisoner was told that he would receive twenty-five strokes, but this verdict had to be approved by the management, officially by the RSHA. Prisoners were so beaten that whole pieces of flesh were torn from their body; I have seen cases where the leg bone could be seen, or bone of the leg could be seen, and this affected all sorts of prisoners, whether they were habitual criminals, or any other kind.
Those were all taken to the hospital and treated. I can even remember a political prisoner from Bremen who simply could not stand to receive a beating of fifty strokes, so this beating was carried out under the supervision of a doctor. He was kept for months in a hospital, and I believe that the matter was sort of forgotten, because the camp commander who had brought this case up was relieved, and the man was then spared receiving the rest of his beating. Then he was reassured that in that connection he would not be beaten to death. Then there was the question of the Jews. The Jews were simply loaded into trucks, and disappeared, and a couple of days later people came and told us to take their names from the file index. These were transports in which there were never any medical examination to see if a person was fit to travel, whether they were seriously ill, or healthy. I believe this was the transport at the beginning of 1942 in which Jews were to be sent away on masse. They were all loaded on stretchers in the hospital, but as soon as they get around the corner, they took them off the stretchers, and disposed of them in another way. I myself intervened for a Jew named Cohen. He was sent from Czechoslovakia to Buchenwald, from the prison window I could see his wife with a newly born child in her arms, that from my window, and this sight of this woman so moved me, and I took what effort I could to help him. Cohen was carried around the corner like the others, I think that was the result of haying him freed. But this was in opposition to the RSHA, and then there were activities with the Nacht and Nebel prisoners. Then there was also individual actions. A young metal worker by the name of Stari, who is still alive today and in Freiburg, in a restaurant poked out Hitler's eyes in a picture, and he was brought to camp in a terrible condition. He was a good worker, and he was put to work in a quarry, but simply had sharpened the instruments in the quarry, and the leadership wanted him to stay there. One day after Hoven came and said, "Do you know Stari," I knew that story, and I said, "Yes, I did." Then Dr. Hoven said, "Things are not going too well with that man, we must take Stari into the hospital." a few days later he was called to the door, and either I or someone else was to examine him, and an answer came that he was sick, and then this was done, and in this way the man's life was saved.
This was also a measure taken against the RSHA. There was also an affair that concerned me. I was known in my region in Czechoslovakia, and this was the only case in which a representative of the Kreisleitung came to a camp to take a look at the situation. It was quite clear that he had come for that reason, to see to it that all possible measures were taken against me. At that time I was not present, and he really believed that these measures really were carried out, but these are not shown, and specific cases that occurred, and this to me, is one of Hoven's activities against the RSHA.
THE PRESIDENT: It will be necessary to suspend the examination of this witness at this time until tomorrow morning.
The Tribunal has considered the objection on the part of the Prosecution to the calling of the witnesses Topf and Borkenau on behalf of the defendant Sievers. These witnesses were applied for by the counsel for the defendant Sievers, sometime ago, and an order was entered by the Tribunal that the witnesses be called. This order was entered without any objection on the part of the Prosecution. The Prosecution, however, this morning moved that the witnesses be not called on the grounds that the statements made concerning their testimony were beyond the legitimate field of inquiry for the Tribunal. The Tribunal has examined the applications for the witnesses, and the memorandum filed today of Dr. Weisgerber, attorney for the defendant Sievers. The Tribunal is of the opinion that the testimony which counsel for the defendant Sievers proposes to elicit of these witnesses is within the field of competency before the Tribunal, and that the testimony may be appropriate to be heard before the Tribunal. The order is then signed by the Tribunal directing the witnesses be called. The order being dated February 4th, last, will be carried out.
The Tribunal will now recess until 9:30 o'clock tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 1 April 1947 at 0930 hours)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 1 April 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I. Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you ascertain that the defendants are all present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all the defendants are present in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court.
DR. WIDESLAV HORN - Resumed
THE PRESIDENT: Have any of the defense counsel questions to propound to this witness?
BY DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for the defendant Waldemar Hoven):
Q. Doctor, please describe Hoven's attitude and behavior toward the Poles.
A. Despite the fact that the Poles were in a much worse situation than we were, I never saw that Dr. Hoven behaved otherwise to the Poles than to the others. The best example is the so-called Germanization of the Poles. The Poles who worked in Germany and who had sexual relations with German women were brought to the camp and were hanged. After a certain length of time a regulation appeared which said that suitable Poles could be Germanized. The Germanization consisted of an anatomical examination where the persons were measured all over the heads, their feet, their mouths, their noses. They were given intelligence tests, a certificate was written out, and then the Poles were released and some of them were inducted into the Wehrmacht. Thus, the examination to which they were subjected actually saved their lives. Dr. Hoven usually left this examination up to us non-German doctors and please observe that we were doctors who did not even understand so-called racial medicine, ethnic medicine.
We wrote up the examination and the persons were thereupon Germanized. In this way a few Poles were saved.
Q. Can you describe to the Tribunal measures through which the defendant Hoven protected Czech citizens?
A. Dr. Hoven was in touch with the Czechs largely in connection with the protectorate action. This was the action in which the Gestapo in a few days disposed of a few hundred Czech intelligentsia and workers and sent them to a concentration camp after the 1st of December 1939; in other words, right at the beginning of the war. This group of persons was, to be sure, called an honorable group of prisoners or hostages. They were allowed to keep their hair and they could write home every week, but in this whole Nazi system there was nothing legal and nothing was secure, certain. After a short period of time these prisoners also were given hard labor.
It is a sad thing when an official who sat at his desk for twenty years all of a sudden has to work in a garden. These again were ministers, senators, representatives, leading personages in political life who simply were not able to stand this work without doing themselves serious physical damage.
There was in the camp a so-called stocking repair shoe where stockings could be patched but it was no secret that this stockingmending department was only for the very old inmates who had been in the camp a few months ago. Dr. Hoven formed a branch of this stockingmending section where he employed all the older Czech inmates who weren't able to do physical labor, including Dr. Senker, mayor of Prague and representative of our prime minister, and many others.
In another institution which Dr. Hoven instituted was the so-called Race Research Commando (Ahnenforschungskommando). The SS wanted research carried out as to heredity as far back as the 17th century. It was no easy matter to find these documents. Moreover, the officers of the SS needed crests. They were the new Nazi aristocracy, and since Dr. Hoven had found among the Czechs an expert in heraldry, he formed a team which accommodated many of our painters and other persons.
This team became more important later.
These were the generous measures that Dr. Hoven took to assist Czech citizens.
Q. What was the SS Camp Administration's behavior toward the Czech inmates after Heydrich's death in May, 1942, and what did Hoven then do?
A. The days after Heydrich was killed were the most difficult days that we Czech inmates in Buchenwald went through. We heard from the SS various theories as to how the Czech nation should be handled. We heard it stated that 1939 was the end of the Czech state and 1949 would be the end of the Czech nation. In this difficult and dangerous atmosphere the news arrived of Heydrich's assination. It is certain that the RSHA had already taken measures in Czechoslovakia because of this, but in various camps we heard that the camp management, on its own initiative, had also taken measures against Czechs. This attitude on the part of the commandant and the Gestapo chief in the camp was a very important matter. On the same day, in the afternoon, when we were waiting to find out what would happen to us, Dr. Hoven came and said: "The political department is quiet", and repeatedly thereafter every day we received such news from Dr. Hoven, and we were assured that neither the Gestapo chief nor the camp commander, on his own initiative, would take measures against us Czech inmates in Buchenwald. Very much happened then which indicated Hoven's attitude towards us Czechs because, in general, we were regarded by the Nazis as an altogether inferior nation occupying a rank just above the Jews. It was not just an SS man or a group, but rather the whole SS was in contact with us and they said to us: "What need do we have for you eight million people. We simply have to exterminate two million, deport two million, and four million that are left, they are then ripe for denaturalization." Dr. Hoven pointed out that the Czech doctors could be used for something, we treated the Fuhrer. Dr. Hoven showed also that in other sectors the camp administration had found ways of using Czechs and all political parties in Czechoslovakia were clear that Dr. Hoven was playing an important role in our behalf in this matter.
Q. How great was the number of Jewish steady inmates in Buchenwald when Hoven took over in September, 1943?
A. What do you mean by steady Jewish inmates?
Q. I do not refer to those who came in later but to those who were always there.
A. These were Jews who simply said that they were masons by trade and thus saved their lives. Also there were Jews in the sick bay detail and in Barracks 50, the vaccination barracks. I should estimate that they were between two hundred and three hundred. There could have been more.
Q. And what do you know about the fact that these steady Jewish inmates were saved by the defendant Hoven?
A. When it was said that the Jews should be removed from the camp it was pointed out, from the statistics of the camp, that there were no masons there. Then the suggestion was made that the Jews who were capable of work should be examined and put in that commando. Thus, many persons were certified by Hoven as masons. These Jews were certified as masons and were used as masons and, in this way, most of them were saved. Those were the two hundred or three hundred Jews I mentioned later.
Q. And what further measures did the defendant. Hoven take to save Jews? Where else did he accommodate Jews?
A. I have already said - in Block 50 and in the hospital.
Q. Were the prisoners interested in seeing to it that Hoven remained in the camp?
A. The old inmates, who had been there for a long time, or inmates who had something to do with the camp administration who knew Hoven's discrimination between decent and non-decent prisoners - they were interested in seeing to it that Hoven remained in the camp.
Q. Why did these inmates want Hoven to stay in the camp?
A. It was never known who his successor would be or how he would behave. By that time, our attachment to Dr. Hoven was too great and I point out this business with the Nacht und Nebel action. If Dr. Hoven had not been in the camp, the Dutchmen would have disappeared without our knowing where they went.
Q. Were the inmates also interested in having Dr. Hoven take over the management of Block 50?
A. I described that yesterday.
Q. Did the defendant Hoven only help inmates when he had some personal advantage from it?
A. No, that is not so. Dr. Hoven had many inmates freed whom he did not even know and whom he met perhaps for the first time only when they were being set free. Dr. Hoven certainly received something from the inmates: They spoke well of him, for instance, later. For instance, the Dutchman Pieck who was a typical academician, a painter. He was commissioned to make medical drawings but had no talent for that, nor could he be used in a quarry or any such heavy work of that sort. Dr. Pieck certainly did a great deal for Dr. Hoven but I never had the impression that Pieck was, in any way, exploited. He had been brought to the camp from Holland in a terrible physical state, and recovered Hoven also saw to it that he didn't get into the Nacht and Nebel action. It was also a terrible situation that he tried to do something for a man in the camp hospital and was unable to do so. The other shops were the same. And there was talk in the dairy of sending Hoven eggs and butter. No doubt Hoven had butter, and the whole hospital received butter too. Then later as leader of the TB section or station was Dr. Dupont, a French theologian, he was a leading physiologist in Paris and St. Inferieure - he was surprised what the TB patients received in the camp. What the official allotment was was one thing, but the other thing is what Dr. Hoven did through his connections of an economic nature. I spoke yesterday of the tailor shop which was sufficient both for us and for Dr. Hoven. The Austrians had a rule "Live and let live", and this was true also of Dr. Hoven. He lived, but he also let others live.
Q. What was the inmates' behavior towards Dr. Hoven after the camp was liberated by the Americans?
A. For a long time Dr. Hoven was not in the camp since he had been arrested. Shortly before the liberation, Dr. Hoven returned to the camp. He spoke with us and came several times. When on the 11th of April, 1945, the order came that all SS were to leave the camp, we sent out patrols from the camp which were to find out what the situation was, and I remember that some one came to me and said "Hoven did not run away. Hoven is somewhere in the neighborhood of the camp." Later I found out that Dr. Hoven had allegedly spent the night after the liberation in the camp.
I myself didn't see him, but I heard that said. Also on that very first night I was called by the American military authorities and I was masked if I knew whore Dr. Ding lived. I knew only that he lived in Weimar where he had his family. On this occasion I found out that statements by the inmates had already been made about Hoven to the American military authorities.
Q. What do you know about the contents of these statements?
A. I did not read the report, but I had the impression when I spoke to the American authorities that this report on Hoven was an official one
DR. GAWLIK: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any questions to the witness on the part of defense counsel?
DR. DOERR (Representing counsel for defendant Poppendick):
Q. Witness, do you remember from your activity in the Buchenwald hospital a Danish doctor who carried out hormone experiments on inmates?
A. Yes, a Danish Sturmbannfuehrer.
Q. A Danish Sturmbannfuehrer, yes. Do you remember his name?
A. I don't remember his name but I remember this was during Dr. Schidlausky's time. One time Schidlausky came to me and said, "We will have to use hormone treatment." I told him that we had very little room. The outer commandos had already delivered patients to us who had been wounded in bombings. Dr. Schidlausky knew this but he thought it was only a very few and that this would be a matter of applying a male crystal hormone and these were to be applied to persons who were being legally sterilized or were homosexual. I asked Schidlausky what sort of drug this was. This matter interested me. Shortly after this conversation the "Schweizerische Medizinische Wochenschrift" had an article which described the application or use of these hormone crystals by a Swiss doctor. I did not concern myself about the matter any further. Then a group of six inmates arrived. Of course they were very frightened. I could only tell them that this was a male hormone and that I was told that it couldn't be a dangerous process. This was an answer which at first I had no reasons for but I later did find reasons for. This was in the year 1944, the second half, at a time in which the prisoners were not being beaten so often. When they were accused of anything, they were brought before the camp court, and this was the time when Schidlausky would not sign the death certificates unless they had been initialed by chosen prisoner-doctors. So I did answer that I did not think this would be a dangerous matter.
Q. Let me interrupt you. How many people were involved here?
A. The first group was not more than five or six prisoners. The prisoners then came and they were examined. Once, after a few months, they were accommodated on straw sacks in the hallway because we had no room.
Perhaps there were twenty to thirty people lying on these straw sacks in the corridor.
Q. How was this implantation of these tablets carried out?
A. I was not present but my assistant, who was present, said that the work was done very slowly and very carefully. A small 3 centimeterlong incision was made and the crystal hormone was inserted, whereupon the incision was again sewed over. My assistant, Franz Frank, an editor from Singen on the Swiss border, already knew about this article in the Schweizerische Medizinishe Wochenschrift and he said, "Why do this in such a roundabout way if it could be done so much more simply?"
Q. Were these prisoners all Germans or were there foreigners among them?
A. I believe they were sterilized prisoners and homosexuals but, as I said, I did not concern myself about this matter too much.
Q. Do you know whether these prisoners were told ahead of time what was going to happen to them?
A. In general it was customary in the camp not to tell the prisoners what was going to happen to them. I know that many persons who came for necessary operations were not told that they were going to be operated on until the last moment. It was sort of a mass production. They were sent to us and then we explained to them what the operation was for.
Q. Dr. Schidlausky's affidavit, Document NO-508, says nothing about fatalities that occurred. However, Dr. Kogon testified that he heard from someone else that two persons had died in connection with this treatment. What do you know about this?
A. The first group of six prisoners and the others were treated in another barrack. They were turned loose after six days. The wounds had healed well and from this we can assume that this preparation was not in any way poisonous. The prisoners were released and were observed later. I cannot recall any fatality.
Q. Who carried out this implantation of the tablet? Were they trained persons or were they other persons?
A. There was, among others, this Danish Sturmbannfuehrer you mentioned.
Q. Was he a conscientious man or was he very casual in his work?
A. You could see that he was not a professional surgeon but you could see that he really understood what he was doing in this operation.
Q. So, in connection with this treatment with hormone tablets, you really could not call these experiments but rather call it a method of treatment?
A. The Sturmbannfuehrer used the word "experiments" and delivered long lectures on the subject. Anyone could take the aforementioned Swiss journal and put it on the table in front of him and show him that this method had already been used. Since we never heard anything more about this Dane's method, let me say that this was the whole technique of the SS. Let us say that I am working with hormones and I say, "Mr. Hospital Director, let me try this out, etc." The SS doctors always used the word "experiment". I saw these people during the next three months. They came to the hospital occasionally and so I believe that you cannot speak of experiments but really of the application of a preparation which was well-know and which had long been in use. Even if we did not actually have this preparation in our hands, at least we did know that it was not poisonous and did not kill persons.
Q. Did you yourself talk with Dr. Wernet, who was this Danish doctor who carried out this treatment?
A. When I read the article, and this literature was available to us through Block 50, it did not interest us because it was a well-known matter in the medical world. Only the manufacture of this crystal hormone was new but the general treatment was an old and well-known matter.
Q. Did Dr. Wernet tell you that he had success in this treatment with his own private Danish treatments?
A. I cannot remember that.
Q. In connection with Dr. Wernet's treatment did you ever hear the name of Poppendick?
A. No.
DR. DOERR: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other questions of the witness on the part of any defense counsel? If not, the prosecution may cross-examine the witness.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Dr. Horn, how many beds did they have in the hospital barracks in the Buchenwald concentration camp?
A. I said yesterday, in December of 1941, when I came to the camp, there were about 300 beds.
Q. Now how many inmates approximately were incarcerated in the Buchenwald concentration camp; that is including the little camps and all the subsidiary camps there?
A. About 6,000 when I got there. The number increased and I believe that when Dr. Hoven was imprisoned there were about 15,000 there, that is September 1943. Then the number grew enormously. I said yesterday that when we were freed there was even a number as big as 140,000.
Q. And still throughout that time there was only one hospital throughout tho Buchenwald concentration camp; is that correct?
A. No, we had the main hospital and then we had the small hospital. Unfortunately I cannot tell you when the small hospital was opened, but when the Poles came in great numbers the small hospital was opened.
Q. Well now then throughout all this tine you never had any more than 300 hospital beds available; is that right?
A. Until the small hospital was opened, when the Poles came, they had 300 beds available for patients or sick persons.
Q. Now, Dr. Horn, what was your connection with Dr. Hoven; were you Dr. Hoven's chief surgeon on his hospital staff?
A. Please repeat the question.
Q. Regarding your connection with Dr. Hoven; were you the chief surgeon on the staff in the hospital under Dr. Hoven?
A. Before I arrived the prisoners told me that there was no surgeon at all there. There were locksmith's and bricklayers assistants, who did surgical operations and when I asked how this was possible, I was told that they had a few Jewish surgeons there who had per formed surgical operations. There was particularly the Prisoner Kramer who was to learn surgery from the Jewish Doctors there.
Q. Now what qualifications did Dr. Hoven have along the surgical lines?
A. Dr. Hoven openly told us that he had too little medical training and that he would like to learn surgery and other branches of medicine. He assisted me for a time, but he did not have the time or the patience to let himself really be trained.
Q. Did you then make an attempt to teach Dr. Hoven some of your technique in surgery?
A. Yes; I did try to do that.
Q. Now in direct examination, Doctor, I believe you said that Hoven helped considerably certain political and national groups, especially the German Communists and Czccho Slovakian inmates and I believe the Dutch hostages during the time he was first camp doctor; this group you speak of, or these groups that you spoke of, were only a very small part of the inmates of the camp; is that correct?
A. That is so; yes.
Q. How did Dr. Hoven act against the other inmates in the camp; was he equally as ruthless as other SS doctors?
A. The situation is this, after our liberation even, we often discussed this matter. We were asked by the American authorities several times asked to define the SS activities. We tried to define the SS for the American authorities and please let me tell you how we defined the SS. The SS was a military group with a nazistic ideology, which had to be ready to exterminate individuals, groups or whole nations on orders.
Every SS man was permitted to carry out such killings on his own initiative. The group of SS doctors - and this we told the American authorities - we said would be a blemish on medical history; that in the 20th century a group of doctors, trained at the best universities in the world by the best teachers, should have so subjected themselves to Nazistic Ideology that they would not only by order kill certain groups and mass es of people, but even at their own initiative. This we said to the American authorities.
Now, we turn to Dr. Hoven's case; he certainly was an SS doctor, with all the SS attributes, although I never saw any killings by him. Dr. Hoven too could kill inmates, on his own iniative, but Dr. Hoven took the measures that I described indetail, which were of great benefit and help to the inmates.
After the American Army liberated us, we stood before a monument to the prisoners, who had died in Buchenwald, I believe 81,000 prisoners were killed in Buchenwald. At this ceromony, doctors of all nationalities came together and we discussed the question what we had done to mitigate the enormous suffering that took place in Buchenwald; we were clear about the fact that we were to a certain extent successful. I believe ours was the only one of the large camps where the spread of typhus had been fought and I also, knew, Mr. Prosecutor, that my statement on the subject is quite different from statements of doctors from other camps.
I am much concerned with the lives of free prisoners in all countries and I ask myself, why is it what I say is different from what others say; how come competent doctors in other camps did not have the success whereas we could do it and yet our statements are different?
I can simply say that the other doctors simply did not have an opportunity as we did to come in touch with another Dr. Hoven.
Q. Now, in tho course of your duties at the hospital barracks in Buchenwald; were you familiar with the room in the hospital number 11?
A. Yes.
Q. To your knowledge, were patients exterminated in room 11?
A. Mr. Prosocuter, as far as I can remember number 11 was in a special barracks called ALM. It was often discussed in the camp, but I never saw anyone killed there; they were collected there for some length of time and then turned loose again. Why did I not see it? There were three camp physicians in the hospital and we received from Dr. Hoven a written order that we had to sign that the sphere named "Alm" was not to be entered by us and we did not enter it.
Q. If I understand it correctly, you would say they assembled patients or inmates in room 11, then eventually the number of inmates were exterminated. Did you hear of this? You never saw it, you don't know of your own knowledge; did you hear of suck exterminations from the other members of the staff?
DR. GAWLIK: I object to this question. The witness said he had never seen it, that he had never entered the room and for that reason he cannot answer the question.
MR. HARDY: The witness said that he heard about it and hearsay is permissable here, as I understand it. I am asking the witness if he ever heard about exterminations in room 11.
THE PRESIDENT: The question in the form propounded to the witness is objectionable and the objection is sustained. The Witness may be asked if he is aware of the general reputation in the camp, in Room 11, what happened there and what happened after people went through there.