A. I could not do that without its becoming noticeable.
Q. But the correspondence went through your hands? If any complaints had been received it would have been possible for you to deflect the matter in some way.
A. That was quite impossible for two reasons. First Himmler, as well as my office Chief Wuest were in direct written and personal contact with the individual scientists. That is shown, for example, by Himmler's visit to Hirt in Strasbourg at the end of 1942 or the beginning of 1943 I don't know exactly when. And, in the second place, Himmler and Hirt met quite frequently so that complaints could reach and reached Himmler from Hirt and other people without my having any knowledge of it.
Q. In the letter which I just quoted the last paragraph mentions a visit which you were to pay to Hirt. When did you make this visit?
A. As far as I can remember that was in the summer of 1942.
Q. Now, I could imagine that a request for you to visit Hirt might lead to the conclusion that you were to deal with the scientific part of Dr. Hirt's work. Now you told us yesterday that your work as Reich Business manager was limited to purely administrative things. How about that?
A. That was true in this case also. I was not to talk to Hirt about scientific matters. Besides he had just sent a report to Himmler about these matters as the letter of 27 February shows.
Q. Now, if we go on to the next page we find Document NO-086, Exhibit 177 of Prosecution, Document volume 9. This mentions 150 skeletons of prisoners. How did you reach this number?
A. Hirt mentioned this number. I have already said that Himmler had visited Hirt in Strasbourg. I was not present during this visit. As Hirt then told me he was to contact Gluecks directly according to Himmler's instructions and if necessary was to use my services as mediator if he could not come to Berlin himself.
Q. Before you talked to Gluecks himself, had Gluecks known of Himmler's order?
A. Yes. Gluecks had already received Himmler's order when I talked to Gluecks at Hirt's request.
Q. Now, the next document NO-116 is a letter from Brandt to Eichmann. Why was such a letter sent to Eichmann who worked in the RSHA? Why was this necessary if Gluecks already knew about this order? Gluecks was the man in charge of all the concentration camps.
A. Gluecks sent me to Eichmann. I had not known him at all up to that time. Eichmann had been informed by Gluecks by telephone but he said that he needed a letter from Himmler or from his personal stuff, and thereupon this letter was written.
Q. And what did you discuss with Eichmann?
A. I gave Eichmann the report from Hirt and I said that associates of Hirt wanted to conduct some anthropological tests, and that he, Eichmann, was to give them the necessary prerequisites in Auschwitz according to Himmler's instructions.
Q. Now, if we go on in the Document Book to Document NO-092, we find a letter which speaks of short comings. Did these short comings have any connection in obtaining persons?
A. No, there is no connection. This refers to Hirt's work on Lost.
Q. In the next document, NO-087, Exhibit 181, you mention a Dr. Behger. What was Dr. Behger's assignment?
A. Hirt had given Behger the assignment from the persons condemned to death to select certain persons from the institute and conduct anthropological measures.
Q. You say Professor Hirt gave him this assignment?
A. Yes.
Q. This letter of 21 june 1943, which we have here as Exhibit 181, did you dictate it yourself?
A. No. I did not dictate it as the initial "S-2" indicates. Since I was never in Auschwitz and knew nothing about Behger's investigations, only Behger could give the necessary information; and Behger was in direct contact with Hirt and received instructions from him.
Q. But you signed this letter -- why?
A. Since it was a top secret letter - on the basis of secrecy regulations I had to sign it.
Q. Would that not have been a matter up to the curator?
A. Actually the letter should have been sent to Munich and signed by Wuest, but because of the urgency of the matter, as the contents show, this was not possible. It is one of the cases which we have already discussed earlier here. Because of the separation I had to sign letters which Wuest really should have signed; but he had been informed about all these letters previously by telephone and he was sent copies of them.
Q. The next document is in Document Book 9 - NO-088, Exhibit 182. It is a teletype which you send to Dr. Rudolf Brandt. Why was this teletype sent?
A. The teletype was made on request of Dr. Hirt by telephone on the same day.
Q What did Dr. Hirt have to say?
A That can be seen from this teletype. It repeats Hirt's inquiries word for word, and Hirt also made the suggestions which are listed at the end of the teletype.
Q Then you were just passing on a telephone conversation from Hirt?
A Hirt called me up and I sent it on by teletype, yes.
Q The next Document, NO-091, speaks of an SS Standartenfuehrer Baumert.
A Baumert was the head of the personal staff of Himmler.
Q Was he your superior?
A Yes. As staff leader he was my disciplinary superior since the Ahnenerbe office was under the personal staff. Baumert had the right to issue instructions to Wuest and certainly to me as Wuest's subordinate.
Q The instructions mentioned here, to dissolve, to take up the collection in Strasbourg, did not originate with you?
A No, not with me.
Q You received the instructions from Baumert and then passed them on to Hirt?
A Yes.
Q And when was that?
A On the 7th of September 1944, as my diary shows.
Q Then after that, did you take any further interest in this matter?
A No. As this note here shows on the 12th of October I was not able to tell Hauptsturmfuehrer Berg anything about the dissolving of this collection.
Q Then did you get in touch with Hirt?
A Yes, I called Hirt up in Strasbourg and then I passed on to Borg what Hirt told me.
Q In this Document NO-091, the final sentence reads: "He (that refers to SS Standartenfuehrer Sievers -- that is, you) thinks that this procedure was the best one considering the whole situation."
Was this your personal opinion?
A No, I said - I think I merely passed on Hirt's statements to Berg without any comment.
Q You have Document NO-483 before you. That is the next Document, page 17, Exhibit 184. You recall the testimony on the 18th of December 1946, here, the witness Kiehr, and you know, therefore, what happened in Strasbourg and Natzweiler in 1943 and 1944. When did you learn for the first time of these events?
A Perhaps in the Fall of 1943 I heard from Hirt that the bodies had been taken over by the Anatomical Institute. Hirt, and no one else, told me what happened in Strasbourg. I learned that only here during this trial.
Q It was your opinion that the Jews selected by Behger in Auschwitz as Commissars of the Red army were doomed to death. Did you know of the so-called Commissar Order?
A Yes, at the Easter discussion in 1942 Himmler had told me about it.
Q You have repeatedly mentioned this Easter discussion in 1942 which you had with Himmler. Was Hirt present?
A No; in the beginning Himmler had intended that he should be present but Hirt was not well at the time and Himmler did not want to ask Hirt to take the long trip to his headquarters.
Q It seems to me that this Easter discussion, 1942, is of decisive importance, for the further developments in the Ahnenerbe and also for you personally; therefore, I consider it expedient for you to tell the Tribunal, as briefly as possible, how this conference came about, and what the essential contents of the discussion were.
A I shall be as brief as possible. This Easter discussion 1942 was the longest conference I had ever had with Himmler. Usually, conferences with Himmler lasted only a matter of minutes. This particular conference lasted several hours.
The occasion for it was the establishment of a new cultural historical section. Himmler ordered me and Dr. Petrau, who was proposed as the director of this section, to come to this section because there were certain matters of organization and financial matters to be discussed. I went to Himmler's headquarters with the firm determination to discuss with him the intention of attaching to the Ahnenerbe tasks which had no connection with it; especially about human experiments because shortly before I had seen one high altitude experiment in Dachau. I realized that this would be very difficult in my position, and would not be easy. I had, therefore, prepared myself in order to have an excuse for the discussion which held Himmler's attention. The House of Nature -- "Haus der Natur" in Salzburg was attached to the Ahnenerbe. That is a big museum for natural history and still exists today, and a procedure had been suggested by the head of this museum which made it possible to preserve all plants, even the most delicate ones, so permanently that both the form and the color were preserved.
Q And you told Himmler about this?
A I had a collection of these plants made up for Himmler and took them with me.
Q You wanted to awaken Himmler's interest so that after that you could present to him what was on your mind?
A Yes.
Q You wanted to get the opportunity to have a long discussion with Himmler?
A Yes; because I knew his mentality I took this occasion to bring about a personal discussion. After the end of the conference with Dr. Petrau I asked him for it, and he granted me ten minutes. He was very much interested in these plants. And then I began to tell him that I did not see any connection between the new military scientific research and the work the Ahnenerbe had done previously, and I personally did not like it, and I didn't see what I was supposed to do in this field which was entirely alien to me.
Then Himmler began a discussion with me, which lasted about two hours - until two at night. From his point of view he presented explanations for all the questions which I brought up, but I held out in my point of view. But Himmler did not change his mind and we came to no agreement. Finally, he said - grudgingly - "actually, as a business manager this is none of your business; you don't have to interfere in scientific matters. That is my responsibility." He said he would take into account the fact that I didn't understand these things, but I had to let him make the decisions, and I should worry about my own duties.
Then I said that I would very much like to know what my duties were. Himmler said that I had to take care of the administrative matters as before, I had to take care of the wishes of the gentlemen, whom he appointed, just as those of the people who had been heads of sections up to now if they asked for my help in administrative matters and wanted to be relieved of the minor details because I knew his point of view. He said that research workers were to carry out research and should not worry about incidental things. He said he would inform the gentlemen, which he did, anyhow as far as the Hirt case anatomical connections, it was a university matter and was none of our business at all. Himmler became quite excited. I asked him for a written order, because they were quite new things. That irritated Himmler, but finally I did get it.
Q Do you mean by this order Document No. 422, which is Exhibit No. 33 in Document Book 1, page 52 -- page 52, Document 422, Exhibit 33: "From the Reichsfuehrer SS to the Reichs Business Manager of the Ahnenerbe, SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Sievers: I assign the Ahnenerbe, etc..."; do you mean this order?
A. Yes, this order was given to me at first orally and then on July 7th Himmler repeated it in writing. It also shows clearly what the Ahnenerbe or I was to do in connection with Hirt. Because of my opposition in this matter, Himmler had made a special point of Hirt's appointment. What I was to do is shown by Point 3 of the order. I was to make the necessary equipment and personnel available as is shown also in Point 4. As far as the Ahnenerbe or I was concerned this referred only to laboratories and workshops, that can be seen from the fact that in each case, I had to send the section chiefs to Himmler for experimental subjects and I believe that enough Documents submitted here have shown that.
The question of the experimental subjects was up to Himmler and was always under the RSHA or Glueck. Finally, according to this order I had to deal with the budget for the Military Scientific Research Institute and had to contact the chief of the WVHA. The funds were to be supplied by the Waffen SS, as is shown by a Document which I think is in this Document book.
Q Witness, did you not point out to Himmler during this conference that such research assignments, as those of Rascher and Hirt, might be more effectively attached to the office of the Reichsarzt-SS?
A Yes, I said that yesterday. After Himmler had refused that, I made another attempt in that direction. I approached Hirt because Hirt himself had not expected to get support through the Ahnenerbe, he was even surprised at it and he was quite willing to ask Himmler to attach him to some other organization. He asked me what suggestion he could make to Himmler and when I said perhaps the Reichsarzt SS, Hirt said that he could not discuss that, as he did not want to work under a man like Grawitz as he said that he was a nincompoop, so he would have to get the support directly from Himmler. When this attempt too failed Hirt was put under the Institute for Military Scientific Research.
Q You mentioned the Commissar order a while ago; you knew about it?
A Yes.
Q Did you consider this Commissar order legally admissable?
A I am not a lawyer; I can not judge the admissability of such orders. I was a soldier at that time, a private, I had no commission, when I asked for the order in writing from Himmler, Himmler said as a soldier you have to carry out every order.
He showed me pictures of arrested commissars, men and women as well as pictures of German soldiers and civilians who had been terribly maimed and killed by these men and women. I could not then object any further to this matter, but the inner conflict which Himmler brought to his subordinates, through his order, he never worried about them. In the background there were the SS courts and if someone failed, the SS courts administered ruthlessly and they were stricter against SS officers than they were in other cases. I had to adjust myself to this situation, which was very difficult for me as it was an enormous spiritual burden.
Q Witness, now I come to a few diary entries which are connected with this subject; under the date of 10 February 1943 is .......
THE PRESIDENT: It is almost time for adjournment, as you are now going to proceed with the diary entries in this matter, the court will be in recess.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION.
(The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 10 April 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will file for the record the certificate of the prison physician as to Defendant Oberheuser's illness.
Counsel may proceed.
HELMUT SIEVERS - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. WEISBRUBER:
Q. Witness, I remind you that you are still under oath, and I now want to put to you a few entries in your diary in connection with this skeleton collection. I shall have your diaries submitted to your covering the years 1943 and '44. Your diary of 1943 contains, under the date of the 10th of February, the following entry, which is to be found on page 45 of the German diary, and on page 163 of Document Volume No. 3 of the English translation. This diary contains an entry to which the prosecution has already referred. It concerns itself with Dr. Bega. Have you found this passage?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. For what reason did you concern yourself with this Bega affair?
A. As I already testified this morning, Dr. Bega was an old acquaintance of Professor Hirt. On this very day, on the 10th of February, he notified the departmental chief Wuest that he had been drafted into the army and that he, therefore, could not carry out the directives given him by Hirt if he had to obey this order for joining the army. Professor Wuest thereupon ordered me to effect a delaying action regarding this draft; that, in effect, happened.
Q. Under the date of the 16th of June 1943, which is to be found on page 166 of the English document book No. 3, there is a report of Dr. Bega about anthropological measurements at Auschwitz. Did you gain knowledge of this report?
A. Yes, Bega returned from Auschwitz and informed us that he had interrupted the work there, since an epidemic had "broken out at Auschwitz. He said that he would have to report about this matter to the RSHA.
Q. How is it that you or the Ahnenerbe concerned itself with that matter?
A. Because, by order of Himmler, the Ahnenerbe was commissioned to take care of this administrative work. Himmler, in Hirt's special case, issued express directives to support Hirt in this administrative work.
Q. Now, under the date of the 23rd of June 1943, the execution of X-ray skull photographs are being mentioned. What was your connection with these photographs.
A. Hirt either had or wanted an X-ray apparatus, or perhaps some thing was wrong with the current. I don't quite know now what the affair concerned itself with at that time. At any rate, it was purely technical.
Q. We shall now proceed to the diary of 1944. Would you turn to the entry of the 2nd of February, which is to be found on page 169 of the English Document Book No. 3. Under the date of the 2nd of February, 1944, a conference with Hirt at Strassbourg is mentioned. Obviously, you were at that time at Strassbourg with Hirt?
A. Yes.
Q Did Hirt on this occasion show you his skeleton work?
A. No, I didn't see his skeletons and we didn't discuss that matter. This collection, which after all was a matter for the anatomical institute at Strassbourg, was only discussed with Hirt once, that is, at the early stages, when this work was being developed. On that occasion I expressed my personal disgust about this matter. He, however, ridiculed me and tried to instruct me about this affair by telling me something about anatomy.
He made a few statements regarding anatomy which I didn't know of up to that period of time. In that connection, he stated how anatomical research workers received their corpses, and I was quite surprised at the amount of corpses such an anatomical institution needs. He led me to the big workroom where corpses were prepared and where the students were working. However, I didn't stay there very long. Hirt at the time maintained the point of view that he, as an anatomical worker, would have to attack problems wherever they had cropped up. He said that these persons who had been condemned to death would give them such opportunity, and that to him it appeared to be ridiculous to merely execute them or burn them instead of handing them over to his anatomical institution as it would ordinarily be done with people who had been sentenced to death. I was strongly under the impression of my inspection in this anatomical room and I asked him not to discuss this matter with me in future. He didn't actually discuss it any longer. On this conference, dated the 2nd of February 1944, Hirt only asked me to instruct Dr. Bega to send him the necessary material.
Q Didn't Dr. Bega collaborate with Hirt at Strassburg?
A. No. Hirt was not in Strassburg himself. He was working in Munich. Bega was formerly active at the Race Office and he knew Hirt from the time of his studies.
Q. Thank you, that is sufficient. Now looking at your entry of the 4th of April, 1944, I put to you that the prosecution concludes from this entry that anthropological measurements were carried out in prisoner of war camps. What do you have to say about that?
A. Anthropological measurements were carried out in this world war just as in the last world war. For instance, I heard about such work in connection with the research of the race research worker, Klaus. He did some research work on members of the eastern population who had been drafted into the Waffen SS.
Q. Concluding this complex of questions, I ask you whether you did anything in that connection which went beyond the orders which were issued to you by Himmler?
A. No, in no way at all.
Q. You are further charged in the Count concerned with epidemic jaundice. When did you get into contact with the experiments with epidemic jaundice? These were experiments carried out at Sachsenhausen and Natzweiler.
A. I only found out here at this present trial in Nuernberg that such experiments were carried out.
Q. Weren't you and the Ahnenerbe or Reich Research Council in contact with Dr. Dohmen? This name has been mentioned here several times.
A. The name of Dr. Dohmen was entirely unknown to me up to the time of this trial.
Q. Didn't the Ahnenerbe or the Institute for Military Medical Research give a research assignment in that connection?
A. No.
Q. Did the Reich Research Council issue any such order?
A. I don't know about that. If such an order was issued by the Reich Research Council, this was only a matter for the plenipotentiary for the control of epidemics who was the Generalarzt Professor Dr. Schreiber.
Q. Now, if you look at page 65 of your diary of 1944 and page 170 of the English Document Book No. 3, and if you refer to the date of the 3rd of March 1944, you will find the following entry, and I quote:
"Generalarzt Professor Dr. Schreiber was telephoned on hepatitis research." End of quotation. The prosecution takes this entry as evidence that you were connected with hepatitis research.
A. Professor Schreiber at that time telephoned the Reich Research Council because he wanted a conference arranged with Himmler, who at the same time was a member of the presidual council of the Reich Research Council.
Q. In that case Generalarzt Schreiber told you at that time that he wanted a conference with Himmler regarding hepatitis research work?
A. Yes, that is how it was. He wanted to confer with Himmler and the reason he stated was that hepatitis research work was to be the subject of that conference. At that time I entered that I didn't even know what hepatitis meant.
Q. Did Dr. Schreiber at that time discuss anything with you regarding his research?
A. No. He said nothing else. There was no reason for him to do that because he really wanted to speak to Himmler.
Q. During these proceedings the name of Professor Haagen was repeatedly mentioned. Haagen was a hygiene professor at Strassburg. Did you know anything about Professor Haagen's connection with hepatitis experiments?
A. No, I knew nothing about that. Professor Haagen never approached me in this connection at all.
Q. I shall have the document Volume No. 8 shown to you. Would you please turn to page 14 where you will find the Document NO-125, Exhibit 194 of the prosecution. Experiments on human beings are being discussed there.
Did you ever gain knowledge about these experiments up to the time of this trial?
A. No. Nothing became known to me and the names mentioned in this letter I heard here for the first time, names such as Gutzeit and Kalk.
Q. With reference to epidemic jaundice, you are testifying that you had nothing whatsoever to do with this entire research work, and when on the 3rd of March, 1944, you made an entry in your diary, "Generalarzt Dr. Schreiber telephoned regarding hepatitis research," this can be very simply explained by the fact that Dr. Schreiber asked you to arrange a conference with Himmler?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, in connection with the complex of questions referring to Dr. Rascher, Polygal experiments were repeatedly mentioned during this trial. I shall have the Document Book 11 shown to you. Would you turn to page 22? This is Document NO-614 - I beg your pardon - NO-616, Exhibit 242. It can be found on page 21 of the document volume in its German form. It becomes evident from this document that Rascher received your approval for the publication of an essay in the Munich Weekly Medical Periodical, During the course of your testimony you have stated that you had nothing whatsoever to do with the scientific part of the experiments. Isn't this document contradictory to your statement?
A. No. We are here concerned with a question of publication. Regarding this essay in question, I telephoned my departmental chief, Wuest, who gave his approval for publication. I, in turn, informed Rascher about that, and I, therefore, did not give such approval on my own initiative and under my own jurisdiction.
Q. There appeared a number of entries in your diary of 1944 in connection with the production of Polygal. Could you state quite generally what you had to do with the production of Polygal?
A. As it was already clarified by Dr. Blome's examination, I had received the order by Himmler in the Fall of 1943 to take steps in order to start the production of this coagulating drug. A number of confer ences were necessary for that purpose regarding operation rooms, preparations, equipment, and whatever was necessary for any such production.
All this becomes apparent from these numerous entries in the diary of 1944. In this connection I want to point to my statement of earlier this morning where I said how these entries originated.
Q. Were you concerned in any form with the development of this coagulating drug?
A. No, I was only included in that work after the development stage had already been completed and when the productive method was to be considered.
Q Where was production of polygal started?
A. That was at Schlachters near Lindau on the Bodensee.
Q. Who was the head of the production?
A. That was Dr. Ploetner.
Q. And was the Ahnenerbe or the Institute of Military Medical Research competent in regards to that Production.
A. At the beginning, yes, and later this was to be transferred to a German Heilmittel G.M.B.H.
Q. And when was that?
A. That was December, 1944.
Q. You will probably remember that the witness Neff stated on the witness stand that you had caused the transfer of a number of inmates from Dachau to Schlachters. Is that correct?
A. Yes that is correct.
Q. Now; I'd like to point out a contradiction which can be found when comparing it to your statement that you really had nothing to do with the furnishing of inmates and now you are stating that you caused the transfer of twenty-five inmates to Schlachters.
A. These approximately twenty-five inmates had already been placed at the disposal of the Department Ploetner at Dachau where this coagulating, drug was produced in the laboratory stage. When production was started a little later I asked that these inmates be also transferred in order to assure them a more tolerable life outside the concentration camp of Dachau.
Q. In view of the general war situation and the advance of the Allied Armies did you consider such a transfer to be expedient?
A. I asked for this transfer and I thought it was expedient in the interest of the inmates. From the point of view of production this transfer was completely senseless considering the situation at that time.
Q. So you want to say that this transfer was only expedient in the interests of the inmates?
A. Not much fantasy is required to Imagine what the inmates would have to experience during the pending collapse and what their conditions in the concentration camp would be. I wanted to save these people from that horrible fate something in which I succeeded.
Q. Did these inmates remain alive?
A. I received reports that they all survived the end of the war under very favorable circumstances.
Q. The prosecution has submitted a document singly, NO. 1424, Exhibit 462. This is an affidavit of Dr. Fritz Friedrich Rascher, who is an uncle of Dr. Rascher. It becomes evident from this document that Rascher, in connection with the production of polygal, or rather the development of polygal, was carrying out fatal experiments on human beings. Did you, at any time, know about that?
A. No, I heard nothing about it. After Rascher's arrest, however, in the year of 1944, the Police President of Munich, von Eberstein, gave me a rather excited description of this criminal Rascher. In that connection he said that Rascher had even shot at a human being in order to test his coagulating drug. A confirmation of this statement could not be obtained at that time. I, at first, didn't believe it because so many rumors were flying around about him and his wife after his arrest among them that he removed his collaborator Muschler by murdering her.
Rascher, incidentally, succeeded in clearing himself of this suspicion of murder. After everything had become known through this trial - everything that Rascher has on his conscience, I am rather inclined to believe it. It becomes also evident from uncle Rascher's statements how secret Rascher kept his misdeeds. Only by interfering with his nephew's desk Uncle Rascher gained knowledge of whatever he is testifying here. He, at the same time, confirms in his statement that his nephew was raging with anger when finding out about his interference.
Q. Concluding these questions, I put to you Pohl's affidavit which is Document No. 065, Exhibit 221, to be found in Document Book 11 on page 2. I quote - (this is on top of Page 3): "Sievers told me the following: Ahnenerbe, who manager Sivers was, was developing a drug in Dachau, by order of Himmler, which had as its result the quick coagulation of blood. He said that it was very important for fighting units because it prevents their bleeding to death. The experiments in Dachau, during which one inmate was shot at, have proven these results." Did you tell Pohl anything, to that effect?
A. MR. HARDY: Your Honor, This Document No. 065 merely pertains to Oswald Pohl's testimony concerning Sivers. I am not aware that the original or the English contains the words "on orders of Himmler" in connection with these experiments to find a coagulant for blood.
DR. WEISBERBER: This is a document which can be found in Document Volume #11 which was submitted by the prosecution. There can hardly be any doubt that this statement of Pohl refers to the experiment of Rascher in connection with polygal.