Q Is it then true, as Dr. Kogan said, that the ambitious Dr. Ding had nothing to fear in the way of competition from Dr. Hoven?
A Certainly that is true, as Kogan says correctly only the most he had to fear was competitors, but the minimum requirements for a competitor is that he has specialized medical training in hygiene, so he didn't have to fear me as a competitor.
Q I shall now put to you Document NO-571, in Document Book XII, page 15. Here there is a notation to the effect that on 16th August 1943, Dr. Ding moved to Buchenwald; is that correct? This is on page 15.
A Dr. Ding's family moved at this time to Weimar. However, at the time the typhus experiments began he had his own room in the officer's barracks in Buchenwald.
Q What do you know about Ding's activities in the department for typhus and virus research in Buchenwald?
A I was never present during any experiments, but it was generally known that typhus experiments were being carried out on prisoners.
Q What was your activity in Block 46?
AAt Block 46 I had no medical or research activities or duties at all.
Q Were you Dr. Ding's deputy for Block 46?
A No, I did. not represent Dr. Ding in Block 46. Once for a short time I was his deputy in Block 44 and 49, but at that time there were no experiments being carried out.
Q Where were you his deputy?
A Block 50.
Q What was being done in Block 50?
A Typhus serum was being manufactured there.
Q Were any experiments carried out in Block 50?
A I know of none. During this time I concerned myself primarily with collecting the doctors, the scientific personnel and employees for Block 50.
This was done at a conference with the illegal camp management, above all with the leaders of the foreign resistance groups, the members of which were at this time in particular danger in the camp.
Q When you say the camp management, you mean the illegal camp management. How did you become to be Ding's deputy in Block 50?
A On the request of the illegal camp management, and the foreign political prisoners 1 was interested in becoming Ding's deputy in Block 50, because Block 50 offered a good possibility for helping many prisoners because their work would be regarded by the SS as so important that they would be classified as essential.
Q I shall now put Kirchheimer's testimony to you; it is on page 1324 of the English transcript. Kirchheimer said: Ding's deputy was Hoven, What do you have to say about that?
A It was known that I had accommodated a large number of prisoners who were in danger in Block 46. Also, months before Block 50 was opened, I was looking around for the prisoners who were to work in Block 50. When Kirchheimer says I was Ding-s deputy, he certainly must be referring to Block 30, that is as deputy in Block 50. The only reason I or any of the prisoners had anything to do with Block 36 was to use these two blocks -- 46 and 50 -- as asylums, I did not have to tell any prisoner at this time that I knew nothing about typhus, and that I had nothing to do with the experiments. Only today I have to make these statements. Every one in the camp knew that, and that I accommodated prisoners in danger in Block 46 and 50, and that fact was known in interested circles at that time; and today I don't see it could have been any different.
Q Were experiments carried out during Ding's absence?
A I never carried any experiments out during Ding's absence.
Q Did you ever concern yourself, as a doctor, with typhus?
A No. It was in this trial that I ever heard any more precise information about typhus. Before the trial I had never concerned myself with typhus at all.
Q In your opinion, what knowledge is necessary for a person to be able to carry out typhus experiments?
A Well, at least specialized training in typhus and hygiene.
Q Do you have such training?
A No.
Q Did you send any reports to any offices on typhus experiments?
A No.
Q On page 1202 of the English transcript Dr. Kogan has stated that Dr. Ding did not begin -- could not begin any series of experiments in Block 46 without a formal order from a higher office. Did you ever receive such orders?
A No.
Q Did you know the defendant Genzken?
A No, never saw him before this proceedings.
Q Who appointed you Ding's deputy in Block 50?
A It was on orders of Grawitz, in agreement with Dr. lolling, that I became his deputy in Block 50.
Q Were you specifically designated as Ding's deputy for Block 50?
A I was never appointed for anything except Block 50?
Q I shall now put to you Document NO-257, Prosecution Exhibit 283, page 11, in Document Book XII. This is Ding's affidavit. In this affidavit, Ding said the following: My presence in Buchenwald lasted always only a few days while the time of the experiments and the length of the typhus epidemic lasted about ten weeks. Is that correct?
A It is incorrect that Ding was present only for a few days at a time in Buchenwald; on the contrary, he was about absent for a very few days when he went on official trips. Ho was, at any rate, in Buchenwald as long as the experiments went on. Moreover, he never instructed me or any other doctors to have anything to do with these experiments.
Q Ding also said: Dr. Hoven had the orders, also had the duty of making those prisoners who were selected by the RSHA available for the prophylactic vaccination preceding the experiments.
A No, those statements of Ding's are not correct, because neither the chief of the concentration camp or the WVHA could have issued orders of that sort at that time. As I have already said, I only interceded on requests from the foreign political prisoners in order to prevent such prisoners being used for such experiments.
Q Is it true, as Ding said, that for the yellow fever experiments that two to three hundred volunteers stood in readiness?
A I know that for Ding's experiments volunteers did apply, but just what experiments of Ding's they were, I do not know.
Q In this affidavit Ding further says: "In the year 1942 he had to work a lot by himself since I contracted typhus, and after that was sent to a rest home. Right after that I had a detail to the Pasteur Institution in Paris, During this time the sick reports carried the signature of Hoven or Plaza", This is on page 12.
A From the diary it can be seen that during Ding's sickness with typhus there were no typhus experiments carried out at all. The same is true for the time when he was detailed to the Pasteur Institute in Paris. From this it can be seen there was no opportunity for any sort of independent work, entirely aside from the fact that, for the reasons already mentioned, I was in no position to work independently.
Q. Which of the defendants did you know before the Began?
A. Professor Mrugowsky I met six or seven days Before the Gestapo arrested me in Weimar. Ding had invited my wife and myself to his home in Weimar. Mrugowsky and Ding were present. There was no discussion of typhus at that time. The invitation lasted for, roughly, half an hour. That was the first time I saw Mrugowsky and spoke with him. With the other twenty-one defendants I had neither officially or privately anything to do. I saw them for the first time in the dock here.
Q. Did you have any connection with firms whose vaccines were tested in Buchenwald?
A. No.
Q. Did you maintain any connection with the institute in Cracow?
A. No.
Q. I shall put to you Document 1305, Exhibit 469. This is a letter of 5 January 1943 from the Behring Works stating that yellow fever vaccine will Be sent. In this letter it says, and I quote verbatim: "We ask for information whether we should send this shipment to Hoven in Buchenwald to the old address." Does this letter not contradict your statement that you had no connection with firms?
A. Ding never gave in his letters the address of the persons sending the letter as the experimental station But he gave the "Camp of Buchenwald" simply. Any letters--
THE PRESIDENT: What is the document Book and page where this can Be found?
DR. GAWLIK: That document was put in By prosecution during the examination of the defendant Mrugowsky. Conseauently, it is in no document Book. It was put in while Mrugowsky was Being cross-examined Document 1305, Exhibit 469.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand.
A. Conseauently, all letters or packages from this firm were sent to the address of the firm which Ding had put on as the doctor's address and as soon as their contents would Be ascertained they were sent to Block 46.
You can see very clearly from this letter that Ding is being asked what address the package should be sent to. In other words, he will get in touch with the person who is really going to receive the package, and that is what the firm is doing, asking him for an address, nothing more, to which the packages or letters or whatever it is should be sent. Oral or written instructions from Ding must have previously been sent to this firm which apparently were not quite clear so the firm is again asking for clear instructions as to how the stuff is to be addressed.
Q. In this connection, Mr, President, from Document Book Hoven No. 1 I put in as Exhibit HO-1 Document No. 1, which is an affidavit by Arthur Dietzsch of 3 April 1947, pages 1 to 4 in the document book.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has not yet been furnished with these document books. Are they on the secretary's desk?
DR. GAWLIK: They have been ready for about two weeks, Your Honor. I am sure the Secretary General has copies of them.
THE PRESIDENT: We see the Secretary has gone to investigate the matter. I think the book will be here eventually. Proceed.
DR. GAWLIK: This document is on pages 1 to 4 of the English document book. Number 12 of this affidavit reads:
"I show you Document NO 1305. Why was the yellow fever infection serum sent to Dr. Hoven?
"This was done for two reasons:
"1. Block 46 had no mail communication at all. All parcels for Block 46 went by way of the camp physician until the setting up of Block 50 in 1943.
"2. It was desired that the outside world should not know that an experimental station existed in Buchenwald camp."
Then the affiant describes exactly what the policy was in the camp.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Were you at the third military medical conference?
A. No.
Q. Did Dr. Ding tell you about his encounter with Dr. Rose at this third military medical conference?
A. No, I heard about this conference the first time here in the courtroom.
Q. Did you give Ding any of the data he needed for reading his paper?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever receive any orders from the defendant Mrugowsky?
A. I cannot remember that I ever did.
Q. I shall again put Ding's diary to you again, Document 265, Exhibit 287, also Document NO 571, Exhibit 285. On 27 August 1943 Ding visited the Zeiss firm in Jena, the Land Industrial Office, and the university clinic. This is page 18 of the English document book. It sets forth, according to the diary, on 27 August 1943, 70 experimental subjects were inoculated, This is on page 47 of the English document book. Did you carry out these experiments?
A. No, I never carried out any experiments.
Q. Who did?
A. I don't know.
Q. Wasn't it your job to take charge of these experiments because Ding was absent on that day?
A. Nobody, not even Pr. Ding, ever commissioned me to carry out any experiments in Block 46.
Q. You don't know what the situation at Buchenwald was?
A. On 27 August 1943 Ding could have done the experiments and then later in the same day he could have gone to Jena. It was easy to reach Jena from Buchenwald in 45 minutes. Morever, you have to take into consideration the position that Dietzsch occupied in Block 46. Balachowsky has described it correctly. At Block 46 Dietzsch worked entirely independently.
Q. I now put Balachowsky's testimony to you. This is Document NO 484, Exhibit 291, page 61 of Document Book 12, Number 9. Balachowsky said in this affidavit: "If the scientific direction of Block 46 was in charge of SS-Sturmbannfuehrer von Schuler-Ding, all the practical execution of the experiments was entrusted to the Kapo of Block 46, the German political internee Arthur Dietzsch, residing at present at Detmold in the British zone."
A It can clearly be seen from this that I had nothing to do with the experiments in Block 46. Balachowsky describes the situation in Block 46 in such detail that if I had played a part there, he would certainly have not forgotten me, but ho didn't mention me.
DR. NELTE (Counsel for the Defendant Handloser): I ask that it be made clear from what time on Balachowsky was in the camp so that it will be known from what time on ho knows what the situation was in tho camp. This is of some importance in the Rose case, and tho Handloser case.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Please continue, witness.
A It can be seen particularly from what he says here that the Kapo Arthur Dietzsch was the man who is running things. So that it wasn't at all necessary when Ding-Schuler was absent for a camp doctor to become active.
Q Did you ever take part in the actual carrying out of the experiments?
A No.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, does the document to which you refer contain the information concerning which Dr. Nelte spoke a moment ago? I didn't gather from what he said whether that information wa.s in tho same document or not.
MR. HARDY: Can't Dr. Nelte bring out this information in the course of his examination of tho defendant?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but while tho document is being used, those dates night well be put in the record. It might save time later on. Have you those dates, counsel, contained in this document? Do you know, Dr. Nelte, where those dates are in the document?
DR. GAWLIK: It is on page 59 in the English copy. "Deported on 16 January 1999 to Buchenwald, sent on 10 February to the Dora tunnel. Brought back to Buchenwald on 1 May 1999 in order work in Block 50...."
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Dr. Hoven, do you think that Balachowsky is in a position to make statements about the situation at Buchenwald before that time in view of conversations that he may have had with other prisoners?
A I don't know Balachowsky. Let me take a look first. After I was released by the Gestapo in 1945, I visited my previous prisoners in the camp, and it does seem to me I can remember the name Balachowsky. It can be that he Y.-as introduced to me, but I can't say for sure. At any rate, ho was a collaborator of Dr. Ding-Schuler. There was a Dr. van der Lingen, if I remember, and then Henry Pieck, then Jan Rupert of the Dutch Resistance Movement; and he must have boon a friend of one of these. Consequently, he really should know enough to be able to make statements.
Q You know the situation in the camp Buchenwald, and then you can express an opinion on this: If someone gets to Block 50 only in 1944 and there associates with prisoners in Block 46, can he make statements about the time that proceeded?
A Yes, he certainly can because, as I said, ho is a doctor from the Pasteur Institute in Paris and he had touch with the main resistance loaders in the camp, and this was the best informed circle in the camp. Roberre Pieck and van der Lingen, and so on, all belonged to the resistance movement; and they had more information about the things in general than anybody else in the camp.
Q Thank you very much. Did you ever do any injecting or infecting in Block 46?
A I wish to use very precise terminology here. In Block 46 I never had a. hypodermic needle or an occulation lancet in my hand.
Q You heard the testimony of the witness Kirchheimer that you never made an injection? That is page 1341 of the English transcript.
A That is the prosecution witness?
Q Yes, it is.
A What he says is true.
Q He also stated that you never had a vaccinating lancet in your hand -
MR. HARDY: Did that translation come through clearly in connection with the testimony of Kirchheimer? Would he repeat his answer? As I understand it, he accepts the testimony of Kirschheimer as true, is that correct?
A Kirschheimer said, did he not, that I never had a vaccinating lancet in my hand? That is correct.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q If you had, Kirchheimer must have boon able to sec it, mustn't he?
A If ho hadn't seen it himself, he certainly would have found out about it.
Q Why, what arc the reasons why he must have found out about it?
A The nurses discussed everything that went on in Block 46 among themselves; and if I had had a hypodermic needle or a vaccinating lancet in my hand, Kirschheimer would have found out about it on the same day.
DR. GAWLIK: Herbert Buhlick has made an affidavit which I will put in now. 26 April 1947. Document Hoven, No. 3, Exhibit Number 2, pages 14 and 15 of the Hoven Document Book. This affidavit of Buhlick says, first of all, and 1 quote: "Following the experiment with lice, I, with nine other prisoners as mediums, had a 2 com intravenous injection of typhus without vaccination." On page 40 of the document Book 12, you will find a document that has something to do with this testimony. At the end of 1942 Buhlick was in Block 46 where he was working until the end of '44 He says, "I was in Block 46 the whole time and even slept there. I always visited the other sick wards too where I was not employed as a nurse. Besides I came into contact daily with the nurses of these other wards; on these occasions we talked about what went on there.
I do not know Dr. Hoven at all. I only know a Dr. Ding, who was chief of Block 46. I saw that all the injections were given by Kapo Artur Dietzsch whom we called the 'old one'. I also hoard from the other nurses in Block 46 that all the injections were given by Kapo Artur Dietzsch. I know that Dr. Hoven was working in the camp hospital. But in the course of my activities in Block 46 I have never heard that Dr. Hoven gave any kind -f injection. I would certainly have been told by the other nurses if Dr. Hoven had given typhus injections to experimental persons in one of the sick wards where I was not working as a handyman. Such an event would have been the topic of the day amongst the nurses. Also I could not have failed to notice if Dr. Hoven had visited the sick wards, In virtue of my observations while working in Block 46, I must say that Kapo Dietzsch worked quite independently in the absence of Dr. Ding. Ho gave all the orders and also carried out the experiments."
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, duo to the fact I did not have the Hoven Document Book when you offered your first exhibit, will you please toll me what document was offered as your first exhibit so I might note it on this?
DR. GAWLIK: Exhibit No. 1 was Artur Dietzsch's affidavit of 3 April 1947, Document No. 1, page No. 1 to 4.
THE PRESIDENT: Now is the time for the afternoon recess. I wish to ask Dr. Steinbauer, counsel for defendant Beiglboeck, and the prosecuting attorney in connection with this exhibit which was marked Exhibit 23 just before the noon recess, I am not clear and I don't know if the record is clear whether that exhibit was actually offered in evidence.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, it boars Exhibit Number 23 which apparently has slipped my view because I didn't know that it had ever been offered as an exhibit. That is the weight chart, is it, that was drawn up by the defendant Beiglboeck himself, and I objected to it, and it is my understanding that Dr. Steinbauer is withdrawing it from evidence.
DR. STEINBAUER: Yes, that is so.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Steinbauer, is that correct?
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, I withdrew the document because I wished to put in another list which contains not only the initial and concluding weights, but includes also the weights in between so that from these charts it will be possible to follow exactly the course that each case took. Also, the Doctor will indicate in these tables when any case drank water.
THE PRESIDENT: That is sufficient explanation for my understanding, but I was not sure that, as the recording system had ceased to work at that time, I wasn't sure that the record was clear, so the offer was withdrawn for this exhibit.
The Tribunal will now be in recess.
(Recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, counsel.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q I offered the affidavit of Buhlick and I should like to call the attention of the Tribunal in this connection to the affidavit of Arthur Dietzsch, which I have already submitted in my document book, on page 1, especially No. t, whore Dietzsch said: "In practice, however, he (Dr. Hoven) did not concern himself about the experimental station in Block 46. In practice Dr. Hoven did not have any activity in Block 46." I should also like to call the attention of the Tribunal to No. 2, showing that from the beginning of January 1942 until 5 days prior to tho liberation by the American Army, April 1945, Dietzsch worked in Block 46 during the entire period when experiments were being carried out in Block 46. Dietzsch is a person who has the necessary knowledge to answer this question.
At what intervals were the experiments carried cut in Block 46?
A Is it true that 3 to 5 persons were infected with typhus monthly, in order to have this virus living in the blood?
A That is possible. I never heard anything about it and I never took any interest in it. I had so much to do in the hospital that it took up all my time.
Q Who performed these injections if Dr. Ding was absent from Buchenwald?
A I do not know. I was not there.
Q. I shall now show you Document NO-1063, Exhibit 328 of the prosecution. This is the file of the Office for War Crimes in Amsterdam. It is not in any document book. It was submitted subsequently by the prosecution. I should like to show you page 14 showing that a certain van Levvarden testified that you injected typhus serum into him. What do you have to say about that?
A. It is very difficult to say anything since I never infected anyone with typhus. I never injected typhus serum according to Levvarden This must be an experiment of 120 people. I gather that and my assistant Dr. Platzer, infected all of these people. But I never heard of Dr. Platzer having anything to do in Block 46, Finally he says nobody died of these experiments. If what Levvarden says were true, this experiment would at least be mentioned in the diary and it would certainly say that I carried out this experiment. An experiment on 120 persons was a big experiment even for the conditions under which Dr. Ding worked. I assume that Levvarden knows me but not from the infection which I allegedly performed. It must be a matter of confusion. That's the only explanation I can think of. It is especially tragic for me that it is a Dutchman that accuses me of a deed that I did not do, Tragic because in the spring of 1942 the sport teacher Jan Robert in Buchenwald and I reached an agreement that the Dutch confidential agents were to tell me whenever a Dutch person was in any special danger or was to be sent on the Nacht und Nebel transport, so that I could help him. Jan Robert was head of a Catholic movement and wanted to come here as a witness in my trial but he had a fatal accident, as the witness Pieck has already testified. But it seems odd to me that Levvarden according to his own testimony was the only Dutchman who participated in this alleged experiment. According to his own testimony for six weeks he received excellent food before he was infected. That means that the Dutch confidential agents had plenty of time to inform me about this case, Even if I had nothing more to do with the selection of the experimental subjects, these confidential agents knew very well that everything was done by the illegal camp administration and myself to prevent foreigners being used in these experiments.
It agrees with the fact that Levvarden says at Christmas 1942 we came to the Gustlof Works. That was one of the drives which together with the illegal camp administrator Jan Robert and Henry Pieck undertook to save the Dutchmen from the Nacht und Nebel transports to Natzweiler. This is a true fact that Dutchmen were quartered in blocks 46 and 50 and were considered essential. It was intended that all the Dutch were put on these Nacht und Nebel transports by the Gestapo and Levvarden was included in this reserve. On the last page a Dutchman by the name of Henry van Dalen says that ho worked in Block 46 for several years as a laboratory assistant. He would surely have mentioned me and reported on my activity if I had had anything to do with the experiments in Block 46 but he does not even mention my name. In conclusion I can only say that Levvarden must be mistaken. I don't want to say that he does this intentionally but I assume that the experimental subjects in Block 46 were in such a condition that confusing the persons is quite possible.
Q. Now, I put to you the testimony of Dr. Kogon on page 1161 of the English transcript. Dr. Kogon testified that you were Ding's deputy for the experimental station 46. What do you have to say to that?
A. Kogon cannot testify to that from his own knowledge. Only in the spring or summer of 1943 he became Dr. Ding's secretary but I assume that Kogon deduced from the fact that I visited the illegal workshops in Block 46 frequently that I worked as a doctor in Block 46. On the other hand, as he himself stated, he went into the typhus problem thoroughly so that he must know that I lack all the most fundamental prerequisites to act as deputy in Block 46. But my real connections with Block 46 make it possible to make this mistake.
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, in this connection I should like to call the attention of the Tribunal to the affidavit of Arthur Dietzsch once more, page 2 of the Hoven Document Book. No. 9 and 10: "Did Dr. Hoven frequently visit Block 46? Yes. What did Dr. Hoven do during his visits to Block 46?
Dr. Hoven only visited the shoemaker, the tailor, and the furrier shops which he had set up there illegally."
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Did you ever give any orders to Dietzsch to carry out experiments?
A. No, Dietzsch was directly under Dr. Ding and besides he certainly knew more about typhus than I did.
Q. Did you have any opportunity to prevent the execution of the experiments?
A. No, I believe it has become known in this room that it was not possible to fail to carry out a Himmler order. Himmler had ordered these experiments. One could only try to sabotage them and I did so in the question of destroying the typhus dice.
Q. The prosecution has submitted that you were Ding's subordinate, page 1097 of the English transcript.
A. Was never Ding's subordinate. No experimental series were started during Ding's absence from Buchenwald and he did not need any deputy to take care of them. I have already given in detail the other reasons for this statement of mine. Dietzsch and the other nurses worked independently when Dr. Ding went away. When he left, he gave Dietzsch all the necessary instructions.
Q. Could you give any orders to Ding?
A. Of course not.
Q. What do you know about the number of experimental subjects?
A. I can say nothing about that. After my arrest the experiments continued for over a year and a half. And I did not take any direct interest in them.
Q. What can you tell us about the number of experimental subjects who died from typhus experiments?
A. I can give no exact information on that.
Q. According to page 1182 of the English transcript Kogon said that the total number of persons who died in Buchenwald from typhus experiments, eliminating passage persons, was 140 to 160.
A. I can say nothing about the number of dead from these experiments. I do not know. That figure might be too high or too low.
Q. Were there experiments in Buchenwald with typhus infected lice?
A. Yes.
Q. How many shipments of typhus infected lice arrived in Buchenwald?
A. Two.
Q. How many experiments with typhus infected lice took place in Buchenwald?
A. One.
Q. What happened to the first shipment of lice?
A. At my instigation Kapo Dietzsch and I burned it.
Q. Please describe to the Tribunal how the first shipment of lice was destroyed?
A. The prisoners informed me it was a nurse - that a shipment had arrived with infected typhus lice and they asked me to see to it that this shipment was destroyed. The nurses and doctors were afraid of an epidemic and they asked me to try to prevent the experiments.
Ding was away at the time. I think he was in Weimar. I went to Block 46. I looked at the cages. There were fifty cages with 600 lice each, if I remember correctly. I know that it was a cold time of year. It must have been the end of 1942. The stove was heated in the anteroom of Block 46. I saw that the cages were fastened with wax and it occurred to me to say that they were not tight. And Dietzsch and I threw them into the stove and made a report on the basis of my position as camp physician I could not take the responsibility of an epidemic breaking out. I believe later I had a dispute with Ding about it. I can't remember exactly what he said. He said I should answer for what I did and send this report about the destruction of the lice to the office which had sent them.
Q: For what reason was the second shipment of lice not used?
A: The lice were brought by an officer in the Wehrmacht uniform; they come from an institute in Lemberg; and he had orders to attend the experiment.
Q: Please describe to tile Tribunal how prisoners were infected by the lice in the second shipment?
A: In the beginning I was not present; when I arrived the cages were fastened to the prisoners' thighs.
Q: Was Dr. Ding present at the experiment?
A: Whether he was in the room at the beginning, I do not know. I heard that he was somewhere in the building.
Q: For what reason were you present at the experiment?
A: I had learned from the illegal camp administration that a political prisoner named Bach, B-a-c-h, was to be used as an experimental subject in this experiment. For this reason I went to Black 46 to prevent his being used as an experimental subject; and in order, if possible, to stop the experiment before it was finished; and, finally, in order to carry out a plan which we had arranged -- to tell him there was a car to take him to Weimar, and when he was gone to get an opportunity to destroy the lice.
Q: I should like to call the attention of the Tribunal in this connection to the Dietzsch affidavit, No. 8, page 2. There Dietzsch describes the destruction of the lice shipment. He says: "the first shipment of lice was destroyed by Dr. Hoven and myself in the presence of a number of male nurses whose names I no longer remember. Dr. Hoven and I agreed to prevent the inocculation with typhus infected lice because we disliked such experiments." Then, Dietzsch describes the dost destruction of the second shipment of lice, especially for what reason it was not possible t o destroy these lice immediately. Did any prisoners die because of these lice experiments?
A: No.
Q: Did any fall ill?
A: Not as far as I know.
Q: Please look at Document Book XII, of the Prosecution, page 41 of the English, Document NO-265, Exhibit 287, the Ding Diary. It says that -- infections on the 3rd of December, 1942 five persons developed an atypical disease. What docs an a typical disease mean?
A: That shows that they did not contract typhus.
Q: Now, I come to the selection of the experiment subjects. Did you select all the experimental subjects for the typhus experiments?
A: No.
Q: On page 1178 of the English transcript, Dr. Kogan said that at times the camp physician wa.s involved in the selection of the experimental subjects. Will you comment on this?
A: That was a very complicated matter. The experimental subjects were selected by the Gestapo, and by the carp administration, and the list was sent to Dr. Ding. One day an agent of the foreign prisoners came to me and reported that there were two or three I don't know exactly how many, foreign political prisoners among time experimental subjects. I immediately went to the SS office -- whether that wa.s the commandant's office an the Gestapo Section, I don't remember exactly. At any rate, I talked to the SS member who had drawn up this list on behalf of his chief, I pointed out to him that I was responsible for the selection of the experimental subjects, which, of course, was not the case -- but which gave me the necessary authority in his eyes. I told him that these two or three foreigners -- and they were the ones that I was interested in -- were not suitable as experimental subjects, and I succeeded in having these two or three names taken off the list. The same thing happened thereafter once more. A representative of the foreign and German prisoner groups came to me with the request that I should prevent somehow -- once and for all -- foreign political prisoners from being used for these experiments.