A I heard about this matter for the first time here during the trial. The situation asit prevailed in a concentration camp was unknown to me. I never had belonged to the staff of a concentration camp, and only from time to time I went there in order to deal with very clear-cut assignments. Mostly these assignments did not entail my presence in the concentration ramp itself but only my presence in the vicinity of the concentration camp since the water installations are naturally outside of the camp. It is for that reason that I know nothing about these matters, but I noticed here that there is a discrepancy between the document 265, the diary,and the document which was designated as the work report of the year of 1943. Insofar as the work report speaks about experiments on human beings, rather, speaks of passages on human beings, and this was defined by the Prosecutor by saying that this concerned human beings who were infected only in order to keep the typhus virus alive, no mention of that is made in the diary. Later we shall speak about that in greater detail.
I should only like to raise the suspicion here that if this testimony of Dr. Kogon were correct that inmates were sent to Block 46 in order to be exterminated there, that those are these so-called "passage" persons. I think I am justified in saying that because Kogon and Balachowski testified that these passage persons had a fatality rate of ninety-five percent but this is a percentage which cannot occur in any series of typhus experiments. These passage persons would have to be put on the same level as the controlled persons who were not immunized and not even among the controlled persons, and this is why such a high rate of fatality occurred. In that case I think we are concerned with some tiling entirely different. I think that will be clarified during the course of the trial.
Q Would you please speak about Kogon's testimony of the 8th of January, 1947, of the English transcript on page 1250, rather, 1274 of the German transcript? Kogon says:
"We applied that method practical Holen and, used in the Pasteur Institute in Paris in Block 46 for its effectiveness. The test from animals lasted approximately four months." Have you that transcript before you?
A Yes. This method of Durant-Giroud was certainly not stolen from the Pasteur Institute of Paris. That is a rather daring and shameful testimony. The method was published by Durant-Giroud in a French publication and was, therefore accessible generally to the scientific world. I repeatedly pointed out as it can be seen from the documents of the Prosecution that Ding was sent by me to Professor Giroud to Paris and was working there for four weeks in order to get himself acquainted with the method. Equipment was even obtained which was use in the Pasteur Institute and which received through the help of that institute. This procedure was absolutely normal since every published method can be used by anyone who is interested. That is really the reason for publication. If one would designate that as a secret method, it would certainly not have been published.
Q Would you now please speak about the animal experiments that Kogon mentioned?
A Kogon states that the examination of this vaccine had lasted for four months. He said that tests were carried on on animals. This testimony stands completely isolated and is not proved by the work report of Ding which deals with the same matter. Such a testing of the, vaccine on animals would not have been necessary either. Professor Giroud is a knowledge and exact bacteriologist and belongs to one of the best-known experts in France. The vaccine had been tested by him by way of experiments on animals. These discrepancies between the testimonies of Kogon, rather, these discrepancies within Kogon's testimony can only be blamed by his deviating from his own knowledge and by stating what he interpreted into events.
Q Did you give Ding the order to start a series of experiments with the vaccine that had been produced at Buchenwald?
A No, I had no possibility to do that. He was not subordinate to me in that connection.
Q Do you think that Ding on his own initiative conducted smeh series of experiments?
A I really would not have thought that that was possible, but during the course of the trial so many documents have become known which have a tendency to show that Ding wanted to act independently, and I, therefore, think i is possible that he started these experiments on his own initiative.
Q Ding started a series of experiments with the vaccine Weimar where he only used five persons for this test whereas in other cases he was using 20 to 25 persons. Does this difference mean anything to you?
A It is quite possible that he considered the selection of only a few persons as a preliminary test and that he selected these persons who because of these camp intrigues were smothered into Block 46. Obviously he didn't make any requisition for inmates. He probably just received a few people which he used for that purpose. That, however, is merely an assumption on my part.
Q On page 1252 of the English record dated the 8th of January, 1947, 1252 of the 8th of January, and in the German transcript on page 1276; Kogon maintains that Ding was not a real bacteriologist and, therefore, had to in case of all questions which cropped up on the reports which were made to him by the experts of Block 50. Would you speak on that?
A When Block 50 started to work. Ding was at the end of his third year of work in bacteriology. There may be much said against Ding, but it would certainly be wrong to say that he was stupid. On the contrary, he was an extremely intelligent person and had an easy ability to grasp matters and was extremely skillful in the laboratory. He certainly was not any particular expert or could be considered any leading bacteriologist, but, on the other hand, it would also be wrong to assume that after three years of expert trailing one would not be in a position to gain the necessary knowledge that a bacteriologist has to have. Official training in that field only needs to be three years, that is to say, that during that period of time his training could be concluded.
Q Would you say that Ding was not in a position to critically evaluate what was told to him by his co-workers in the field of typhus?
A I already stated yesterday that Ding worked on two places for his training on typhus questions and that this period of time could only have been the foundation for the gaining of any special knowledge in that field. However, typhus does not differ so much from the rest of bacteriology. I think that one could transfer the knowledge to be gained from bacteriology into that field, too, and he naturally was in a position to critically evaluate the various questions that came up.
I personally looked at a number of preparations with him, and I can say that on my own knowledge.
Q Did the vaccine produced in Buchenwald have an effect in practice?
A The vaccine belonged to the best we had in Germany. The American occupational troops used that vaccine in their internment camp after the collapse. Professor Handloser testified on that here. That naturally wouldn't have happened if it hadn't been usable.
Q I now turn to the typhus passages on human beings. You know that Ding in his work report of the 11th of April, 1943 states that "typhus passages on thirty-four persons up to now." This work report is NO-571 which is a Prosecution Exhibit 285. What do you know about these passages, and what does "passages" mean?
A The passage is the passing of a disease carrier through a human being or through an animal under control of a physician. If an individual animal or person falls ill and a bacteriologist observes that cause, that would be considered as the first passage. If he takes blood from that patient and then injects that blood into an animal or into a number of other animals, and if he sees that all these animals also fall ill, this is considered to be the second, third, fourth, etc., passage. This procedure is used in the laboratory in order to test the ability of a bacteria for infection. Since these tests were made and since about seventy years ago one had found out that the virulence, namely, the ability of a bacteria to infect in other persons decreases very quickly, if that passage is used by one and the same type of animal. In the case of a number of disease bacteria the custom was introduced into many laboratories of the world to change the types of animals used, that is to say, from the guinea pig to the rabbit, and then go over to the louse and then, perhaps, again return to the guinea pig and the rabbit, and then the mouse. In this case the bacteria receives its full virulence. It would lose it very quickly if one always applied it to guinea pigs or always applied it to rabbits, etc.
Q If one applies that to the case on hand, would that mean that had the passages been carried out in the way Kogon testified, namely, from one human being to another human being, would then the virulence be kept equally or would it have been increased or decreased?
A If it had actually been the case that the typhus bacteria in its poison would increase by passing it from one person to another, then epidemic would always increase and couldn't logically stop for the bacteria would become more and more poisonous, and at the end of the epidemic people would be infected by bacteria that beforehand had still be able to resist, because these bacteria had become more poisonous in the process. In reality, however, that is not true. Every epidemic at one time must stop even without any measures of control. We don't know the laws which govern the coming and leaving of epidemics, but that much is sure and is proved by every epidemic all over the world, namely, that every epidemic must at one time step and is limited timely; that is, the bacteria loses its poisonous quality although there is a passage from one human being to another.
Secondly the consequence would be at the end of the epidemics the most severe and most fatal cases would occur, but that is not the case. The most fatal and most severe cases with the greatest mortality can always be found at the beginning of the epidemic, and that in itself is very significant for tho physician treating epidemic. For he realizes that he is concerned with the beginning of the epidemic when he observes such serious cases.
Q The passages with human beings, would that have brought any advantages compared to passages on animals?
A No, in no way at all.
Q Wasn't there the danger that the virus when transfered to the animals would die?
A The vaccine was to be produced from the lungs of animals and one would therefore have to go over to the animal from the human being. The change of type of animal to be used is always a critical momentum. It often occurs that tho bacteria cannot be applied, but automatically dies, but in our cases, in Ding's case that wouldn't have mattered because he always had many spontaneous typhus cases at his disposal, and would have been able to get a new strain from then.
Q When did you hear of passages of human beings for the first time?
A Here during the trial when looking through the work report.
Q Didn't you receive Ding's report of 43 from him?
A This document is neither signed nor is the date filled in, nor does it bear the stamp "secret" or any number. The report obviously is only a draft, therefore and there was never sent off. At any rate, I never received any work report, and I never asked for it.
Q You remember, however, that your name appears on that work report by handwriting; how do you explain that?
A This handwritten note does not originate from Ding. It may mean something else. However, all that is an assumption. Nothing can be proved.
Q Did you receive a work report like that for the year 1941 or 1942?
A No, I didn't ask for one.
Q. The draft of the work report for '43 which is available here contains something about Block 46 and Block 50; wouldn't you have noticed that had you received the report?
A This certainly would have drawn my attention, because I know how clearly these two blocks had boon separated. This clear distinction between Block 50 and Block 46 was unanimously confirmed by all witnesses. One exception seems to be Mr. Balachowsky's assurance, which is Document 484, and Prosecution Exhibit 201, where he says in the German translation that between Block 46 and Block 50 there were close connections. That is in contradiction to all other statements contained in all other documents. I looked at the original and there is something else contained therein. It says there, there are le rapport etc. constant, that is to say there were continual relationships between the blocks, but it does not say these relationships were close. That is something entirely different. This testimony is in agreement with all the other testimony.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, in that connection I once more refer to Document Mrugowsky 23, which is to be found on page 161 Volume 1-A, which I offered as Exhibit Mrugowsky Exhibit 26, which is a passage which deals With the exceptions--Document 23, Exhibit 26, page 161. I will read the paragraph to be found on page 162:
"I was told now, that Dr. Ding is supposed to have infected so-called passage-persons with typhus during experiments, in order to keep the virus alive. I already stated that I watched the typhus experiments in Buchenwald very carefully because persons who were not liked were put on the list for the experiments. During my observations and inquiries which were conducted since July 1943 I never saw or heard anything about passages on human beings. On the basis of the information that in cases of passages the death rate was extraordinary high, it does not seem impossible to me that as so-called passages the disliked persons were used, who should be exterminated by the intrigues in the camp.
Q In Ding's Diary many letters are to be found which refer to the serum obtained by the typhus, ruthenol?
A In that connection we are not concerned with the prevention to be imposed as in tho case of vaccine, but we are concerned with the treatment of ill persons. In the case of a number virus diseases, for instance, in the case of infantile paralysis and scarlet fever, the experiments, was obtaining that serum from persons who had gone through that illness, has a curing effect in the cases of people who had newly fallen ill. This experiment was applied in the case of typhus at the very early state, and contradictory results were achieved. Some physicians had successes and some physicians had failures. Since we have no drug in the case of typhus with which we could treat the patients, the suggestion originated that this serum of the convalescents would have therapeutically capacity. In the case of typhus, which we encountered, we were naturally very interested in that question, and I know tho entire literature on that subject. I know how contradictory the results were, but I also know a large number of scientific thesis which speak of good results in case of that method of treatment. In order to make up a serum we took the serum from the persons who had survived typhus and applied it as a therapeuticun in other cases of illness, with the changing result sometimes which worked and sometimes which didn't.
DR. FLEMMING: I submit to the Tribunal Mrugowsky Exhibit No. 14, which is to be found on page 131 of the Document Book 1-A, which is a copy of the handbook Pathogenic Microorganism", and shall submit that handbook to the Tribunal as soon as I got it from the laboratory. This is Document Mrugowsky No. 14, page 131 of the Document book, and I offer it as Exhibit No. 37. I only submit it to tho Tribunal for their attention, and it is said therein that a number of research workers had good or better or not results at all in case of this serum by convalescents.
Q Were any persons harmed by using that method?
A That is completely out of the question. In the first place these convalescents were still under medical supervision. The serum was not only drawn from them in Buchenwald but was in hospitals wherever typhus patients wore treated. It is a peculiarity of the typhus disease that the vessels and the veins are in most danger, whereas the amount of blood in itself does not change. The vessels, therefore, are oberburdened, and the drawing of the blood is known for a thousand years in medicine as a taking away of the burden of the circulation system. It comes in order to gain serum, for only that the blood in the later case is not being poured away but that it is used for therapeutical purpose. If the drawing of the blood is executed skillfully any harm to the patient is out of the question.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess.
(A recess was taken at 12:30 P.M.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 28 Mar 1947.)
JOACHIM MRUGOWSKY - Resumed
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Continued BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q Before the recess we were talking about the taking off of blood in the case of typhus and you were saying in that connection that a cleverly carried out taking off of blood would be rather beneficial than damaging in the case cf typhoid. What do you consider a cleverly carried out operation of that type?
AA human being has a total of about five liters of blood. It has been known for decades that damage to health through removal of blood, and particularly danger to life, would only take place if one liter or more is taken off; but even that limit is not a certainty. In the case of removed blood, therefore, from the vein one will stay well below that limit. The rule is not to tale more than five hundred cubic centimeter From the entires in the so-called diary it becomes apparent that on the average 430 cubicecentimeters were taken from the convalescent patients. Consequently, usual limits were observed so that danger for this removal of blood was out of the question from the beginning.
Q These convalescent patients - were they previously examined before the convalescent scrum was taken away from them?
A They were still under medical consideration in the hospital and the doctor in whose care they were get them ready for this removal of blood. This would not have been done if in any way there had been any reason on the strength of which the patient might have been in jeopardy, for instance, through anemia or anything like that.
Q The persons from whom convalescent serum blood was removed - did they in any way receive compensation?
A In Germany even in peacetime there has been an arrangement usually according to which, in the case of blood transfusions and some such operatic accitional food rations could be allocated. This ruling, which was also applicable to the armed forces, was also brought into cooperation for concentration camp inmates and I know that a corresponding order was given through the chief of concentration camps through administrative channels.
I saw a copy of that order. The persons in question whose blood had been taken, therefore, had additional rations. Being more than 150 cubic centimeters of blood was removed, which is the lowest limit, such compensation in the shape of food could be given.
Q You said that you considered that any damage to health was considered out of the question by you in the case of such removal of blood in the case cf convalescent patients. Please remember that Dr. Kogon has testified that this removal of blood was at least part of the reasons for later fatalities.
A This opinion of Dr. Kogon is incorrect. Nor does he speak on the strength of his own knowledge because he himself stated during his testimony that as far as the events in Block 46 were concerned he only knew them by hearsay; but he himself had no business there, so that he could not collect such experiences of his own. His assertion, therefore, is based on the statements by third persons and I would like to point out that Kogon himself also has said that persons who later on were to be infected with typhus had previously been put in a particularly favorable condition of nourishment by means of considerable additional food rations.
Q Then there is another mention of the removal of blood when, through Dr. Ellenheck, in the so-called small camp and according to Kogon's testimony blood was removed and used for blood conserves. What is to be understood by that?
A To begin with - with reference to conserving of blood during the ne numerous wounds which happened during a frontal war blood transfusions became one of the most important means of treatment. In the case of numerous such instances there is additional condition of shock and it transpired that it is not a good thing in this condition to carry out transfusions of blood with blood corposcles because through that circulation is additionally burdened. Therefore, one passed on to using serum only; despite all this at the front there are numerous cases when the transfusion of blood appears advisable and is carried out.
There is not always a sufficient number of Flood donors available and from various sources, not only in Germany but also abroad, particularly in Switzerland, the problem was tackled of bringing blood into a shape in which it can be kept several weeks and in which it can be taken to the front where it can be given to wounded soldiers. In my institute we were working, on this problem on behalf of our divisions, and such blood conserves, which could be kept for four weeks, were manufactured by us on a larger scale, and they were used for our divisions at the front. This blood did not originate from concentration camps. To the contrary, Himmler had emphatically forbidden that for use among Waffen-SS members blood from concentration camps should be used.
We set up a special donor organization in Berlin through appealing to the population. Particularly women and girls reported in such large numbers, voluntarily that is, to give their blood for this purpose, that we had more than sufficient donors for our purposes. From the stocks of this conserved blood we also supplied large quantities to concentration camps but when, late: on, transportation problems became more and more difficult because of the increasing air attacks, the demands of concentration camps could no longer be satisfied. Following a special proposal of the chief medical officer of concentration camps, the requirements of detainees were supplied from blood taken from healthy prisoners. Consequently, to this is due the entry in Ding Diary that in Buchenwald too healthy prisoners in the so-called "smaller camp", which was the description for billets and quarters, had blood taken away from them, and Kogan states quite clearly that these donors were reporting voluntarily in order to receive the additional food supplies.
Q. So that it is your opinion that this method of removing blood is perfectly justifiable?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you yourself ever give blood in that manner?
A. Yes, but not very often. Possibly twenty times.
Q. What was the quantity of blood that they took away from you?
A. Generally 500 cubic centimeters, rarely less, but a few times, 750 cubic centimeters.
Q. Mr. President, in this connection, I submit Document Mrugowsky #15. It is on page 133 of Mrugowsky's document book. #15 on page 133. I offer it as Exhibit Mrugowsky 38. It is affidavit from Professor Dr. Siebeck, Heidelb* Professor Siebeck, in connection with some of the questions which I put to him, only stated briefly that the question is ... Page 133; Document 15, Exhibit 38. Professor Siebeck, in the case of individual questions which I put to him, only states in his affidavit that this question is to be answered in the affirmative and I have, therefore, taken the liberty on Page 136, immediately following this affidavit, to reprint the questions which I had put to Professor Siebeck and these questions can be found on page 136. Professor Siebeck says in his affidavit under figure 1 that:
"Until about the beginning of this century typhus was considered to belong to the group of typhoid diseases, because the general symptoms of the disease show similarities. But since then it has been known that typhus has no connection with the typhoid diseases. This has been proved for certain especially since Nicolle discovered the germ."
Figure 2: "Typhus takes its course frequently, and it can be said, typically, with a head-ache without other troubles.
"3. A serious phenomena of the disease such as delirium, disturbances of the circulatory system, appear at first mainly during the period of numbers but this can also appear much later, especially disturbances of the circular system."
With reference to question 4, I shall first of all have to read the question which is: "Is it correct that complacations may arise in the course of this illness and that they chiefly occur in the case of a severe attack on typhus?" And the answer is: "This question is to be answered in the affirmative."
In question 5 I had asked: "Are some of these complications bronchial pneumonis, inflammation of the kidneys, hemorrhages in the skin, vomiting, etc?" and the answer: "The complications mentioned appear rather frequently in serious cases."
Figure 6: "Bonchial pneumonia, at least, is a frequent complication in cases of typhus, vomiting was not so often observed by us. The hemorrhages: the skin are mostly very slight in cases of uncomplicated typhus. Symptoms from the kidneys are frequent, but real and serious inflammation of the kidneys are frequent, but real and serious inflammation of the kidneys occurs seldom if ever. It depends on the symptoms, whether they can be traced back to the disease or to other influences."
Figure 7: "There is no specific therapy for typhus."
Figure 8: "It is correct that the therapy has first of all to support the circulatory system. I would use baths only with care. In the giving of medicines, measures called for by the symptoms to counteract the pains come into consideration. If it is opportune phlebotomy is recommended for all case of infection."
Figure 9: "The administering of Cardiazol and Sympatol mentioned seems appropriate to me. However, peroral administering is not sufficient in all cases. In serious cases an administering..."
Then I can skip this and pass on to Figure 10: "Among the anatomical changes which are traceable in cases of typhus, those in the blood vessels (perivascular infiltrates) play the most important part. The lowering of the blood pressure is apparently caused by a disturbance of the blood vessels of the brain. Only a few examinations about the quantity of blood in cases c typhus are available. I personally do not believe that the express 'a rupturing' (Bruechigwerdon) of the blood vessels is quite correct. If there are not quite special indications, I myself do not recommend phlebetome in cases of typhus, but I cannot say that phlebotomy, if carried out carefully would be a mistake. The taking of 430 cubic centimeters of blood seems rather much to me, but I do not think that real or permanent damage can be caused thereby."
Figure 11: "Does such phlebetome, if carried out correctly, have such a damaging effect on the whole body that the patient's condition will deteriorate instead of being improved?" And Dr. Siebeck draws your attention to his previous statement.
Figure 12: "It is at least quite improbable, if not impossible, for human who are in the convalescent stage after typhus to be harmed by a single blood letting of 430 cubic centimeters to such an extent that death does not occur until later in consequence of the loss of blood. Such a blood letting was made several times in order to use the serum of these patients in the treatment of now cases."
Figure 13: "Phlebotomy, if properly carried out, can be the direct cause of death only if it is made on an extremely *** weakened convalescent whose circulatory system is completely undermined."
Figure 14: "It is correct that in cases of typhus the serum of convalese has been used frequently for therapeutic purposes, statements as to the results being contradictory."
Figure 15: "Exact dates about the regeneration of the blood cannot be established. A healthy body regenerates 150 to 200 cubic centimeters of blood within a few days without even fooling it.
In case of 400 cubic centimeters of blood it may take a week or a little longer. Undernourished bodies do not regenerate so well and take a longer time than healthy ones. If the food supply is to a certain extent sufficient, the blood is regenerated also without any special additional food rations."
A. Can I add briefly that these clinical statements have been made because Dr. Ding, in his acridin work, is referring to them under the separate headings, and the prosecution, during the submission of this document, had said that these complications in typhus cases are traceable to the introduce of acridin and rutenol. That is erroneous. These complications arc due to the disease as such, and Professor Siebeck, who has particularly great experience in this sphere, states that the complications which were mentioned happened very often in typhus cases and are, therefore, not due to the medical treatment which Ding applied.
Q. You have Ding's Diary before you. On the 21st of December, 1943, until the 16th of January, 1944, on the 23th of January to the 12th of February, 1944, and the 22nd of May, 1944, to the 16th of June, 1944, you find the entry in this diary to the effect "Control of blood serum"? What experiment is he talking, about in that connection?
A. That was not an experiment at all. It was a therapy. I already stated this morning that in several cases with shock and also disturbances through infection, one only reluctantly decides on a blood transfusion, preferring rather to use blood serum. During, this war, hundreds of thousands of soldier were treated with blood; serum conserves with the greatest success. Incidents of any type never happened, and it was my aim, therefore, on behalf of the infection department of hospitals to get hold of such scrum. I did not succeed in doing so, because the production of these blood serum conserves was through the military academy of the army, and our field units were supplied through armies and divisions. As far as rear units were concerned, such conserves were not at all available. It was only after a lengthy period that I nevertheless, succeeded in getting hold of such ampules, and for treatment of disturbances of the circulatory system I placed such ampules at Ding's disposal for his patients.
Q. In the military academy or any other office did they request to have this serum conserve tried out or to check regarding its effects?
A. No and there wasn't any cause whatever to do so. In hundred of thousands of cases reactions and effects to such conserves had been known, and publications to that effect were available. I do not think that there was a single forward dressing station at any front of this last war where this conserve was not used at one time or other.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, in this connection I submit to you Document Mrogowsky Number 16. It is on Page 140 of Document Book 1-A, Mrugowsky Number 13, Page 140. I offer it as Document Mrugowsky Exhibit Number 39. It is an affidavit from one Konrad Lang who produced this blood serum conserve.
Following the customary preamble he first of all describes how these conserves were manufactured. Then on Page 140 of the German version he says, "All serum preserves would show after a few weeks or months a slight darkening, which was the normal occurrence of pus and caused through fixing corpuscles. During long transports, particularly by car, this process and formation of this film was accelerated. Ampules which dressing stations had held for a lengthy period showed clearly discoloring. Numerous reports by the Institute were received, showing that the usability was no worse than in the case of clear ampules.
"We, nevertheless, introduced the precautionary measure that in the case of the infusion of strongly discolored ampules a gauze filter should be introduced and that the infusion should take place as slowly as possible. These filters could be got from the main hospitals, a measure which was, however, rarely used in the field.
"Prof. Dr. Mrugowsky was specially interested in the manufacture of serum preserves and discussed the matter several times with myself as well as the director of the serum laboratory at Berlin, Oberstabsarzt Dr. Kreiselmaier. I am certain that on these occasions the question of clouded ampules and its insignificance with regard to their compatibility was discussed. The necessity of experiments on humans was never mentioned, for the excellent therapeutical qualities of serum preserves and their agreeability had been known for years and had proved themselves long since in the field by the application of many tens of thousands of ampules.
"Several scientific papers dealing with this matter had also been published."
I can skip a passage; and it will suffice to read the last paragraph. I quote: "I was not informed on which of the patients the SS intended to use the serum preserves they asked for. But I asked Prof. Dr. Mrugowsky to see to it that also the SS line all other departments which used serum preserves submit reports on their experiences of therapeutic success and compatibility."
Q In the so-called Ding Diary, the use of protective vaccine is repeatedly mentioned. On the 24th of March to the 20th of April, 1943, there is an entry about carrying out of a large scale experiment on forty-five persons according to the scheme of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS. Please, will you give us your views on that?
A In the indictment we are accused among other things of having, carried out infections of human beings by means of pox, typhus, paratyphus A and B, cholera, yellow fever, and diphtheria. Apparently this accusation is based on this passage in Ding's Diary. May I first of all say that it isn't at all easy to produce artificial infections of human beings and particularly has it never been possible to produce artificial infections in the case of diphtheria. There were experiments about this during in which it was not possible that children who had infectious diphtheria bacilli sprayed into their throats would become ill with diphtheria. This did not work. In that case we are not concerned at all with any infection but with protective vaccinations, in fact, exactly the opposite; and I do believe that any accusation which the prosecution made would not have been made against us had the context of the natter been recognized clearly at the beginning.
The connections here were as follow's. Since the end of 1942 the training period for recruits in the Waffen SS at home stations amounted to only four weeks. During those four weeks, therefore, apart from military training, all vaccinations and inoculations which were essential had to be carried out. In order to enable the medical officer and the commanding officer to carry this matter out more easily, I devised a vaccination and inoculation plan containing the exact information regarding the day when vaccination or inoculation of recruits had to be carried out.
DR. FLEMMING: This vaccination plan is Document Mrugowsky Number 17 and can be found on Page 143 of Document Book 1-A. I beg to submit it as Exhibit Mrugowsky Number 40. I am only submitting it for the information of the Tribunal and will refrain from reading it. This is Document Mrugowsky Number 17, Page 143, Exhibit Mrugowsky 40.
A This vaccination plan shows that the interval between individual vaccinations amounted to an average of one week, which is the customary period. But during this one week other types of vaccinations were applied so that the entire period of vaccinations was abbreviated. We know from long experiences of the last war, particularly from the British, through White, that such vaccinations can be well carried out during a short period. Vaccination reactions aren't any more prominent than in the case of any ordinary vaccination.
But one great technical advantage does arise, namely, in a short period all vaccinated persons are still under control whereas in the case of the spreading cut of such vaccinations ever a lengthy period they will possibly be transferred to other stations and there are not available for observation.
One day the chief Medical officer of concentration camps, Loehning, told me that in the concentration camp Buchenwald a large number of Dutchmen had been interned. I think they num bered several thousand.