I can give you the exact date for this, I shall always remember it, 28 December, 1943, after an air attack on Frankfurt on the Main in the presence of his secretary.
Q Let us be more brief.
A I am just getting to the main point.
Q Just a moment.....
THE PRESIDENT: Please allow the witness to finish his answer. The witness may continue his answer.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q Continue, witness, but let me repeat my question and lot your answer be brief; did you impose on Koch to carry out executions? That simply can be answered with "yes" or "no".
A I was going to continue what I had to say and then I would answer you right away.
This evening, in the presence of his secretary whom I met in the course of the interrogation, Dr. Morgen said he found out from a phone call that his house in Frankfurt had been bombed by the American Air Force. Then, he came back into the room in an enraged state, shouted at me and said, I don't know what curses he used against me, but he said, if you killed the American swines for that you would deserve nothing but God's thanks, however, in the meantime if ten political prisoners are killed that is something we might talk about because they were the worst enemies of the SS. He said, "You killed political prisoners, "and that it was none of my business." He was so excited and inconsistent in what he was saying, my confidence was shaken completely. I can only bring this up now, because this man is saying now he worked for the welfare of the prisoners, however, as Himmler's personal deputy he simply furthered the extermination plan which Himmler outlined for the concentration camps, however, the exterminations were not meant for informers or professional criminals but for Jews and political prisoners.
Now, to answer your question directly, I never directly imposed on Koch.
Q It is not necessary for you to go on to such an extensive length to answer my question when it is as simple as that, Doctor. Now, on page 67, we note a reference made to Schaufelmeier; did you know Schaufelmeier?
A This is a killing with which Dr. Morgen charged me also.
Q Did you know Schaufelmeier?
A I cannot remember him, I had nothing to do with him.
Q Did you know Titz?
A I believe that was a man who worked under Koch, if I remember correctly; is that so?
Q I am asking you, Doctor?
A I think he was an orderly who worked for Koch, I do not know for sure, but if you will tell me I will know if I am right.
Q Did you participate in the murder of Titz?
A If this is the Titz I am thinking of, who was a servant of Koch, then I can tell you he is still alive. I saw him by accident on the day when I was taken prisoner. He is still alive, he is fine.
Q Who is Sommer?
A. He was a supervisor in the bunker?
Q An SS man?
A Yes.
Q Is he one and the same Sommers who is now on trial here in Nurnberg?
A No, he has nothing to do with him.
Q Did you know the camp commandant's wife, Frau Polk?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever have any relations with her?
DR. GAWLIK: I object to that question. I don't know what probative value the question is supposed to have.
THE PRESIDENT: What probative value could that have, Mr. Hardy?
MR. HARDY: To show the reason for the animosity the defendant contends ho had with the camp commandant.
THE PRESIDENT: It appears to mo immaterial and the objection is sustained.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q Did the prisoner doctors contribute to the writing of your doctor's thesis?
A No.
Q You are certain of that?
A Yes.
Q Did you participate in the killing of Collinet?
A No, but since investigations of this case were immediately undertaken against the illegal camp management, and I wanted to keep the prisoners from getting into any trouble and since the Gestapo had already arrested me I took it upon myself. I did admit some things I was asked and the things I didn't admit they said I did any way. That is the way they work. May I make an explanation of this, Mr. Hardy?
Q Go ahead.
A I want to toll you so that you will understand that better. I don't want to use up the Tribunal's time describing my experiences with the Gestapo when I was in prison because you probably know about the methods of the Gestapo but I want to remind you, Mr. Hardy, what their measures were, their practices. Your American fellow citizen, Frau Mildred Fish who married a German scientist von Harneck. She was going to teach in the University of Baltimore and is known for her translation of Edmund's "Drums along the Mohawk" and Stone's novel, "Lust for Life", which she translated into German. She was involved in some affair with her husband in a fight against Hitler, and sentenced to six years, after having been in the hands of the Gestapo. When she was taken by the Gestapo she had blond hair. She was a pretty young woman and loft for the trial with white hair after Hitler had commuted the sentence and had condemned Mrs. Fish to death. Now these are the sort of methods the Gestapo used so you can understand such a document as this can come out of the Gestapo and it is pretty harmless in comparison with their other stuff.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, returning to the subject of punishment in Buchenwald, with what instrument were these floggings administered? How was it made and of what material?
A It was a leather whip. I can't tell whether there was a steel red in the middle or only a wooden one. That I don't know.
Q How long was it?
AAbout so long. (Indicating)
Q Approximately one meter?
A Yes, roughly, yes.
Q How heavy was it?
A I don't believe I have over picked up one. I can't really say how heavy it was.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess.
(A short recess was taken)
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, the Tribunal anticipated you a moment. It is unimportant. The Tribunal is now in session. Counsel, you may proceed.
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. HARDY:
Q Dr. Hoven, during the course of this examination -
A There is a noise in the system, Mr. Hardy. I can't understand you very well. There is such a noise over the earphones. There must be a ventilator.
MR. HARDY: We will have the ventilators turned off.
Q Dr. Hoven, during the course of your examination here you have related with considerable frankness your activities at Buchenwald. Now I want you to be as equally frank in the question which I am now about to put to you. You were in Buchenwald in one capacity or another from October 1939 to September 1943. During that period of time you must have seen many dignitaries and officials of the Government, the Party, and the SS come and go to and from the camp. You undoubtedly talked to many of them or with others who knew the purposes of their visits, and also you nay have had the occasion or must have had the occasion to see many orders, decrees and directives and correspondence concerning the activities of the camp.
Now, from what you have seen, read or heard from authoritative sources concerning Buchenwald can you tell us what governmental or Party or military or SS officials, organizations, departments or agencies had knowledge of the program of medical experimentation which was carried on with the prison inmates at Buchenwald?
A I shall, of course, give you information about everything I know. I am the last one to protect the SS or who has any reason to do so.
Q Did you ever see any dignitaries visiting Buchenwald?
A The Reichsstatthalter Sauckel who died in the meantime, the Prince of Waldeck and Piermont who was in Buchenwald frequently because he was the highest judge of the Fulda-Werra, district "SS-Oberabschnitt" and the camp commander of Buchenwald Koch was his deputy as judge. There was a great enmity between these two.
Koch was the one who finally lost. Then Heydrich visited the camp and about fifty to sixty high Wehrmacht officers.
JUDGE SEBRING: Who were some of them?
THE WITNESS: I was not introduced to them. They had the ranks of Generals and Colonels. Also physicians of the Wehrmacht visited tho camp. As far as I saw, they visited the hospital.
Q (By Mr. Hardy) Did any cf them visit tho experimental station?
A I heard that tho Prince Waldeck visited it; then Dr. Morgen whom I already mentioned before; also the so-called chief judge of the Prince Waldeck from Kassel, a Dr. Paulmann (spelling) P-a-u-l-m-a-n-n Paulmann.
Q Did any of the Wehrmacht physicians visit the experimental station?
A Of those who are present here?
Q No, of those who visited Buchenwald that you spoke about.
A I didn't understand that question, Mr. Hardy.
Q You stated that Wehrmacht physicians visited Buchenwald. Did they inspect or have the opportunity to see tho experimental station at Block 46?
A I cannot recall whether they visited Block 46 because at that time I was in the hospital and I showed them the hospital.
Q Did you ever sec any correspondence or orders or directives or any other communications or literature which indicated to you that the Wehrmacht or any members thereof had knowledge of the program of medical experimentation in Block 46?
A No, I did not see that. I assume that later on when I was already arrested this must have gone over Block 50, if that's how it was. I never saw any correspondence I didn't even know that they had a diary on Block 46.
Q Who in the SS had knowledge of Block 46 and tho experimental work going on there? Did you have any knowledge as to that?
AAbout the experiments?
Q Yes.
A I cannot remember anybody at the moment. Whether I was told that somebody was there. I believe in September 1943 Mrugowsky was there. I know for certain that he was in Buchenwald at the beginning of September 1943. I met him on that occasion of his visit.
Q Well, was it generally know amongst the medical departments of the SS that an experimental program was being conducted at Buchenwald? Were you in a position to ascertain that?
A Do you mean the physicians who were at Buchenwald? Of course, they knew it.
Q How about other SS officials? Did they have. knowledge of medical experiments which were conducted on prisoner inmates at Buchenwald?
A Well, the camp commandant frequently got visits, also visits of higher persons. I assume that he told them that there was an experimental station but I cannot say that for sure. You have to consider that actually I was mostly in the hospital and concerned myself with the problems of the prisoners mostly. We were happy if we didn't see those big shots.
Q Well, from what you have seen, read, or heard from various sources, can you tell us what officials had knowledge of the program of Euthanasia or the program of extermination of prisoner inmates?
A I told you, Mr. Hardy, when we met for the first time that I believe it was a slight error when you asked me "Do you know about the Euthanasia program of the German people"? At the moment I didn't know what you were referring to and then you said "When was action 14F13 started?" And, I told you I thought at the end of 1941 but about the Euthanasia Program of the German people I knew, peruse, nothing more than many Germans knew, namely that in insane asylumns the patients were supposed to be exterminated or had been killed. These were rumors, I even believe that I heard it for the first time from inmates themselves who had gathered it from some kind of notices in the newspapers and found out that something must be wrong.
But this action 14F13 - you want to know who knew about that? What offices?
Q Yes.
A Well, the order, I was told, was given by Himmler. The inspectorate in Berlin must have known about it, therefore.
Q Which inspectorate is that, doctor?
A That was the Inspector Gluecks at the time.
Q Did you ever work for Gluecks?
A No. I know Gluecks because he visited Buchenwald two or three times.
Q Did he know about the existence of action 14F13?
A Mr. Hardy, of course, I cannot tell you from my own knowledge. But, according to all the connections which I found out about he must have known about it.
Q Is there anyone else you feel must have know about it? How about Grawitz? Did you understand me, doctor?
A I understand you. I am just thinking it over. I don't know it from my own knowledge. I don't know whether I can give you an answer which only expresses my assumptions.
Q Were you in a position to ever ascertain whether the high command of the Wehrmacht had any knowledge of these matters of experimentation and extermination?
A No, that I don't know.
Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not high SS officials, Himmler, Heydrich, and medical officials like Grawitz had any knowledge of this matter?
A Himmler certainly because he ordered that. At least that is what we were told, that is certain.
Q Do you have any knowledge whether the civilian sectors, men like the Minister of the Interior Frick, later Himmler, and doctors therein, Dr. Conti, for instance, had any knowledge of these matters?
A I can't tell you that from my own knowledge. I never had any. thing to do with them and didn't know them either.
Q Then you don't feel you are in a position to inform us as to the knowledge of the Government, Party, military, SS officials and organizations?
AAs far as action 14F13 is concerned?
Q And experiments, yes.
A Mr. Hardy, I told you everything that I know.
Q I have no further questions.
EXAMINATION BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q Witness, do you have Before you Prosecution Document NO 2312which has Been marked for identification as Prosecution Rebuttal Exhibit 524?
A No, I don't.
Q Will the page please hand that to the witness.
You will notice on the first page of that document appears ....
MR. HARDY: (interrupting): Your Honor, I don't Believe he has 2312. I had only one other copy.
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q Do you have it now Before you?
A I have 2312 and 2313.
Q Do you notice that on the first page of that document appears the wording "reason for protective custody"?
A Yes, your Honor. After "Headquarters of the Concentration Camps".
Q Exactly. Now, under there appear ten categories as follows under the heading "Reason for protective custody" there appear the categories: "political", "Politically revertible", "Professional criminal", "Bible researcher", "Rachial polluter", "homosexual", "emigrant", "expulsion", "work shirker", and, finally, "care -CARE". All of those are listed under the title "reason for protective custody", and I assume that this entire document deals with prisoners in Buchenwald who were Being held there under protective custody. Is my assumption correct?
A Yes, that's correct, your Honor.
Q From you understanding of the situation under "reason for protective custody" what would be meant by the word "political"?
A They were the inmates who were arrested for political reasons. In the camp they were designated as "political prisoners". The term "political" refers to the German prisoners as well as to the foreign political prisoners.
Q Are you familiar enough with the law that was in existance at that time as to know generally the types of actions on the part of these men that would make them a political prisoner? Would it be some action or breach, either against the government, or against the Party, or against individuals of the Party, or against the program of the Party, or against the flag of the Party, or any of the other things that are listed in the German criminal law of that period which set out penalties for any adverse action against the Party or its members? Is that what you would understand by a "political prisoner"?
A Your Honor, do you mean what I personally mean by it or what the SS understood by that?
Q Well, first what you understood by it.
A The political prisoner - I understand that it is a person who, because of his conviction, was an opponent of the then existing National Socialist government, either after serving a sentence which was passed by a special court or a regular court - a prison sentence or a penitentiary sentence - and who was then sent to a concentration camp. From my fairly good knowledge which I had through contact with political prisoners, the following has to be taken into consideration. Political prisoners could, as I said before, by a German regular court or a German special court, be sentenced because of any political crime - for example, the distribution of pamphlets or objection to National Socialism or one of its followers - they could be condemned because of high treason. They could be sentenced to prison or a penitentiary. After having served this sentence - I know from my own knowledge that on this very same day, let us assume that he was sentenced to three years in prison at the very hour after the three years were up he was again discharged from the prison. That is what was the usage before. Then he had to report to the Gestapo, or the Gestapo had already established a contact with the prison where he was being kept, and on the basis of his crime, on the basis of the sentence which was passed against him, that is, the Gestapo decided whether a further so-called "protective custody" was necessary or not.
By protective custody was meant that, in order to protect the German people from these political criminals, they were then sent to a concentration camp and, as I have already said yesterday, the following regulation existed, the so-called "Heydrich paragraph". The Heydrich paragraph said that for the protection of the security of the state and the German people, all political crimes had to be punished and political prisoners who had served a sentence, until the state was certain that they would not be revertible anymore, they would then be sent to a concentration camp for their improvement. The Gestapo office which sent them to the concentration camp was supposed to request a report on the behavior of the prisoner. If the report was bad, then they were supposed to ask for it again three months later. If the report on the behavior was bad again, then the Gestapo could wait one year before the next report, and it was up to the discretion of the concentration camp leader, the block leader who was a prisoner. In practice, it was handled this way: The prisoner was given a punishment by the camp and automatically his protective custody within the camp was prolonged by half a year. In practice, of course, the political prisoners hardly ever were released again. I personally remember a case in which it was being considered that a political prisoner, who had not done anything wrong be kept longer in the camp. Therefore it was said that he spit on the floor and. had thus endangered the health of the rest of the prisoners and had damaged state property. Political prisoners showed the report to me one day. From their trusted men they got a copy, and that actually occurred. This was the reason given in the report-sent not only to the commander, but it also to Berlin, and it was recognized as a reason. In practice, release was practically impossible unless special persons did something about it or the prisoner was released through some accident, I stated already yesterday how many steps he had to overcome. The SS and Gestapo, strange as it may seem, said that an inmate of a concentration camp was actually not a prisoner, but put in protective custody.
That was supposed to be a stage between a prisoner and a free citizen. It was supposed to be a better class than a prison inmate or a penitentiary inmate. Of course, this was not in accordance with the facts because a prison was considerably more pleasant.
Q Can you say to what extent this practice of treatment toward the political prisoner was known in the high circles of the SS or Wehrmacht or the government or the Party?
A Excuse me. I forgot to answer one of your questions before. This was not the only reason why the political prisoners were sent to concentration camps, but it could also happen that a Kreisleiter or a high-up Party official was insulted by some man or other who was not of his opinion politically. Thus, this official could, through his connection with the Gestapo, immediately have this man sent to a concentration camp. Of course, this was not the officially prescribed, way, but, in practice, it was handled that way. Thus, it occurred, and I know of such inmates and in part I could even achieve their discharge, such prisoners who were sent to concentration camps with completely empty files. Only their names were on their papers. They were sent to concentration camps and then afterwards, they thought over what they might have done and remembered they had some fight with some Kreisleiter or somebody in the government and they assumed that was why they were sent to concentration camps. They were the practical cases that I know. Thus, there did not, of course, have to be a sentence of a regular court or a special court, but in most cases this was the procedure.
Q Now, can you state to what extent this program in actual practice was known among the officials of the Party, or the Wehrmacht, or of the SS, or of the government? In other words, was this practice pursued toward political prisoners an open secret - something that everyone knew about, generally speaking?
A No, no. The peculiar thing that, one of the former witnesses attempted to explain, but it did not come out quite clearly. In order to answer your question directly, your Honor, the RSHA certainly knew it.
Only the RSHA was concerned with political prisoners. Of course, the RSHA knew about it. Also the superior offices of the concentration camp commanders knew about it because these decrees had not been issued by the commanders, but by the RSHA which was also over the individual Gestapo offices. The conditions could not be known among the German people and everybody in general because every inmate who was released had to sigh a document in which he gave a so-called affidavit that he would not report anything about the events in the concentration camp, but this would not have been necessary even, because he knew quite well that he was not allowed to report anything, in fact, because if he had reported it and then he was returned to a. concentration camp his death was certain. That is a matter which the inmates themselves, of course, knew very well. Individual inmates told me that they did not even tell the truth to their wives for precautionary reasons.
Q Do you know of the fact that confined at Buchenwald as political prisoners were citizens from the Sudetenland, from Bohemia and Moravia, from Poland, or certainly that part of it that was taken over by the Government General, I believe it was called, or from Russia, or from the Netherlands or from Franco, or from Denmark or from any other occupied countries?
A Such prisoners were at Buchenwald, and in order to answer your last question, during my time there were no Danish prisoners. But during the time when I was an inmate in Buchenwald myself I heard from the concentration camp inmates that Danish police officers were supposed to have been there, they also told me once when I was in the cell that America parachutists and English troops had come to Buchenwald.
Q Now, in passing on to the next category, to "Reason for Protective custody" appears the category "Political by revertible" what do you understand is meant by that term?
A That was as follows: a prisoner who had already been once in a concentration camp and was then released and now for any reason whatsoever came into conflict with the law -- that is of course for political reasons, was then without serving a sentence, without being sentenced by the Court, immediately returned to the concentration camp. Those prisoners had a red triangle and about this rod triangle they had a horizontal stripe, about 3 centimeters wide and 8 to 10 centimeters long. This was worn about the triangle.
Q In other words, a political prisoner with the red triangle though, the politically revertible, wore the same triangle with the red stripe above the red triangle, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct. There is also a third category which is not shown here. They were "action" inmates. They were inmates who had been in concentration camps once for political reasons. They were released and at the beginning of the war they were returned to the concentration camp without their having committed any political crime or any crime whatsoever, but only for the security of the state. They then wore a red triangle, and the red horizontal stripe was not above the triangle, but about two centimeters below the top of the triangle, and at the end of this stripe that wont through the triangle the prisoner's number was written.
Q I think I understand. The next category "Professional Criminal."
A They wore green triangles, and of course there was also the same category of "green revertible prisoner."
Q Then we come to the category "Bible Researcher" what did you understand by that?
A Jehovah witnesses. That was quite a peculiar affair. The Jehovah witnesses were by Himmler at the beginning of the War sent to the concentration camps, and at least those who were sent there their lives were saved by Himmler, because they were conscientious objectors, and the Wehrmacht would have shot them if they had refused to take a gun into their hands. The reason why Himmler did this was that manpower was badly needed, so it was not an altruistical reason, but a very practical one. As a matter of fact the Jehovah witnesses were a very stable background in the camp. They were people who never lied, nor never stole. Therefore, they also succeeded, and after the original chicanery they had to suffer by the SS and informers they got positions in the food stores, which they administered excellently and then after their original difficult times they had very good positions in the camps. They had a purple triangle.
Q The next category is "racial Polutor," what do you understand by that?
A They were Jews, who had had sexual intercourse with German women or girls. They wore the Jewish star, and around it there was a black rim about two centimeters wide. This was around the entire star. I believe that theoretically German women and girls who had had sexual intercourse with Jews were also supposed to be put into concentration camps and also wore the Jewish star with the same black rim. I only heard that from stories told me by the inmates.
Q Was this Jewish star a yellow star?
A The Jewish star in the case of the political jews who were sent to the camp was a rod triangle and a yellow triangle. They were put over each ether in the form of a Jewish star. Theoretically, of course, Jewish professional criminals would have existed too, but I don't remember any Jewish professional criminals in Buchenwald.
Q Passing to the next category, We have "Homosexual." I suppose that term almost answers itself. It is what we understand in the medical profession as homosexuality?
A Yes, Your Honor.
Q Then I will pass to the next category "Imigrant", is "Imigrant?"
AAn imigrant, they were German political opponents of Naziism, who after the seizure of power by Hitler had loft the German Reich and were living abroad, and were staying with friends who had the same political opinion as they had. For example, those who fought in the Spanish Civil War, and men, who for example, wore living in France, and were supported by people of the same point of view and as far as I remember, especially those who fought in Spain were later on the basis of an agreement handed over. One thing for certain: when the Government again got them into their hands they imprisoned them in concentration camps. They wore a blue triangle, if I remember correctly.
Q The next category "Expulsion," E-x-p-u-l-s-i-o-n? what is that?
A I don't understand that, Your Honor. I heard that for the first time myself now.
Q Does that appear on that document you have there?
A Yes, it is on the document.
Q But you do not understand the meaning of the term?
A No, I don't understand the meaning of the term.
Q We will pass to the next, the next is "Work Shirker." Who do you understand to be a work shirker within the nomenclature of the concentration camp system?
A Here in the Court, Your Honor, you heard that mentioned already under another designation, namely asocial. They are the asocial people, who wore black triangles. They were the people who on the whole were treated best in the concentration camp, because usually they were neutral. They did not belong to any one of the extreme groups.
Q And then the final category is "Care", C-a-r-e-; what do you understand by that?
A "Care," - before Hitler's time, that is before 1933, there were as far as I know in the German criminal procedure institutions which kept juveniles who had committed crimes, such as stealing or sexual crimes, and who were not old enough that is they were not of age yet, not old enough to be tried under the penal procedure. They were sent to care Institutions for that. I cannot state it with absolute certainty, but I assume they were people who had formerly been in reformatories, because they had committed some crimes they had to atone for, and after they became of age were then sent to concentration camps. They sure must have been very few of them. I never had anything to do with them, and I heard very little about it.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Thank you very much.
Is there any re-examination of this witness?
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. During the course of the cross-examination there was repeatedly talked about the fact that you were working for four years at a concentration camp as a physician, perhaps you will correct this now, namely, as the facts actually were. Do you have your affidavit before you of the 22nd, no that is the 24th of October, 1946; please look at that affidavit. What did you mean to express by the term "four years in a concentration camp"; describe what had to be differentiated here, the different parts and what different parts you were working in?
A. Counsel, I believe Mr. Hardy's question was whether I had been four years in a concentration camp irrespective of what positions I held there. Actually, from 26 October, 1939 until the beginning of January 1941, I was assistant physician and later troop physician in the guard troop. At that time I had nothing to do with the concentration camp at all, because troop physicians were forbidden to enter the concentration camp, a special pass was needed for that and only camp physicians got this pass.
Q. To what extent during that time did you have insight into the actual conditions in the concentration camp?
A. It is actually as follows: even people who were in the nearest surroundings of the concentration camp did not find out the facts maybe even less than some outsiders, because (1) it was strictly prohibited to speak to prisoners at all, (2) they only saw them once in a while when they went to work and (3) if there had been the possibility to speak to inmates, they certainly would not have told the outsiders anything.
Q. In your affidavit, please look at paragraph 7 on page 3 of your affidavit, page 12 of the German document bock, you mention the figure of 500 inmates; as I understood you and please tell me if that is correct; you did not name the figure, but Mr. Hardy told you the figure; is that correct?
A. I can no longer state whether it was Mr. Hardy or the interrogator, at any rate one of the two of them gave me the figure.
Q. And since you had full confidence in these gentlemen, which went even to the extent that you would have been willing to take these two gentlemen as your defense counsel, you agreed to the figure; is that how this figure came about?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. And the further figures of 10% and 20% how did you. arrive at those figures?
A. I heard those from prisoners.
Q. In reference to the justification of these killings you began to make statements with what persons you discussed this at the time you were camp physician in Buchenwald, I believe that you did not conclude these statements; do you have anything to add?
A. It was a very difficult problem, of course, for me, who did not feel that I was in a position to make a decision and was not up to it. I then did the next best thing and got in touch with inmates who knew me very well and had confidence in me. I also discussed the matter with lawyers as to what could be done to assist in this emergency. Among others, I discussed it with the Duch Minister of Justice, who was a hostage in Buchenwald, I also spoke with Polish prosecutors and Czech judges, I spoke with authors, politicians and artists and we discussed together what could be done.