Q On what page is the first page where a death appears?
A Page 16.
Q Page 16; now which person there died as a result of the experiments?
A On Page 16 the B.V. inmate 1219, Josef Rufer, born on 9 March 1896.
Q Now, which subject is he on that page, counting from the top, which subject is he on page 16?
A The eighth counting from above.
Q That is the eighth name counting from above, page 16, is the name of a man who died in the experiments; which experiments?
A That was the first experiment of the Ahnenerbe.
Q That is the gas burning experiments or the typhus experiment or the poisonous gas experiments; which one?
A It was the gas burning experiment.
Q Now do you know from your own knowledge whether that man died or do you know only from your knowledge of the book?
A I saw this corpse personally.
Q Now is this one of the men of the group that volunteered?
A Yes.
Q Well now, do you know what these first 15 men used in the gas burn experiments volunteered for?
A No, certainly not.
Q Well, did they volunteer for a dangerous experiment or for a harmless experiment?
A They volunteered for a harmless experiment.
Q Then in other words they did not expect to die as a result of the experiments?
A No.
Q Were they warned that the experiments were going to be very severe and might cause death?
A No.
Q Now go to the next death as a result of experiments in that book.
A This is on page 17.
Q Will you count from the top and tell us the number of the subject on the page, so that we will have a proper reference, Mr. Nale?
A It is the 12th name counting from above.
Q On page 17; now what is the name there?
A Professional Criminal No. 1656, Karl Kirn, born on 14 September, 1907.
Q And what experiment was he used in?
A He was used for the same experiment as in the case before, it was the gas burn experiment.
Q Do you personally know of that death; did you see that corpse also?
A Yes.
Q Now, will you go to the next death which occurred as a result of the experiment?
A Now we come to the third death case as a result of the gas burn experiments, it is the 13th name oh page 17 from above, Professional Criminal, No. 1346, Friedrich Dries, born 6 April 1905.
Q Does the record show the date of death?
A No.
Q Can you tell me whether you saw that corpse or not?
A Yes.
Q Now, will you turn to the next death, which you have written down in that book, which occurred as a result of some of the experiments?
A Yes, on page 38 you find experiments with typhus. The 12th name counting from above, you find a group of 18 gypsies; none of the names are mentioned.
Q Well, how do you know that refers to the gypsies that died in the typhus experiments?
A Because only gypsies were entered into that book without names or numbers, all other inmates entered in this death book bear a name and number.
Q Weren't there any other gypsies in the camp other than the gypsies being used for typhus experiments?
A Yes.
Q You said yes, do you mean there were other gypsies or there were not other gypsies?
A In addition to these gypsies, there were other gypsies who were normally registered in the camp.
Q Could it be possible that these deaths referred to other gypsies, that is gypsies other than those used in the typhus experiments?
A That is out of the question.
Q Well, now you see on page 36.......
A Page 38.
Q Page 38 there are 18 blank spaces where the names should be.
A Yes, there are 18 gypsies who died as a result of the experiments.
Q Well, what does the entry say in the book on page 18 to indicate that these were 18 gypsies?
A Between the last deaths and the following deaths there are the words, "18 Gypsies."
Q I see and that is on what line on page 38; Line No. 12?
A The 12th line from above.
Q Did you personally ever see any of those gypsies?
A I saw all of them.
Q Did you see the corpses?
A Yes.
Q Now can you tell us from which room in the experimental station those corpses came from, as I recollect your testimony, you stated that Haagen divided his experimental subjects up into two groups, one group was in room no.
1 and one group was in room No. 2; now do you know where those 18 gypsies were in; room 1 or room 2; do you understand the import of my question?
A Yes and I cannot tell you that exactly, most of them belonged to the group which was not protected.
Q And that group was in which room, the ones that were not protected I mean.
AAhnenerbe Room 1.
Q And the group that were vaccinated were in Room 2?
A Yes, they were housed in the dressing room, which was Room 2.
Q Now, will you go to the next entry in the book, which indicates to you that these are records of deaths which occurred as a result of experiments?
A Then we go over to page 39, the second line down from above; here we have one gypsy, he is entered in the same way that the other 18 are.
Q I see -- and the next entry?
A On line No. 5 counting from above, there is another gypsy.
Q On page 39?
A Yes, page 39.
Q Then indicate the next entry.
A On line 7 you find another gypsy entered.
Q On page 39?
A Yes.
Q Now, the next entry?
A Page 39, line 11, you find three gypsies.
Q And the next entry?
A Now, we go over to page 40, second line from above - one gypsy.
Q And the next entry?
A Fourth line from above, 2 gypsies.
Q And the next?
A Line 11 from above, one gypsy.
Q And the next entry?
A Now we go over to page 43, the 8th line from above, 1 gypsy.
Q Yes...
A I repeat line 8, page 43.
Q And the next?
A These are deaths caused as a result of typhus experiments.
Q Now, do you have any further deaths, which are recorded in that death book, which you have knowledge about?
A Yes.
Q Would you point those out, please?
Q As a result of gas poisoning experiments you find on page 74, 7th line from above, the gypsy 6587, name - Fodassy Andreas, presumably a Hungarian, he was born on 12 February 1911.
Q And how do you know that that name referred to in that entry is one and the same as the man experimented on by Haagen in the poison gas experiments?
A Because after the name, there is the letter "V" inserted.
Q And what does "V" mean?
A I, myself, made that notation for the word "Versuch" for experiment.
Q Did you see that experimental subject dead?
A Yes.
Q Go to the next entry, please.
A Now, we stay on the same page, the 8th line from above, there you find the gypsy 6516, the name of Rebstock Cirko, born on 28 May 1901.
Q Now those two gypsies, on page 74 or is it -- what page is that?
A Yes.
Q Page 74, is that true, page 74?
A Yes.
Q Those two gypsies you saw being subjected to poison gas experiments; is that right?
A. No, I saw them already as they were led down.
Q. What do you mean by, you saw them as they were led down?
A. These men who were selected for this last experiment were led to the gas chamber in groups. That was in the concentration camp, Natzweiler.
Q. And then later you saw them dead?
A. Yes, I later saw these people dead.
Q. Will you go to the next entry?
A. Yes, I should like to explain one thing first, however.
Q. Go right ahead.
A. The gypsy, Rebstock, Cirko, I remember very well, I received the order to wash him to cleanse him.
Q. You mean after he was dead?
A. Yes, after he was dead. And then I had to take him down towards the crematory into the autopsy room. He was to be autopsied.
Q. Did you ever wash any of the other experimental subjects after they died?
A. Yes, certainly.
Q. How many, would you say?
A. As a rule, all of them were washed.
Q. Did you wash any of the experimental subjects in the typhus experiments after they died?
A. Certainly.
Q. Go to the next entry, please.
A. Now we go over to page 75, second line from above. Here you have the gypsy, 6545, Adalbert Eckstein; born on the 2nd of February, 1924. This is the second line from above on page 75.
Q. Did you see him dead also?
A. Yes.
Q. To the next entry, please.
A. Now we go to page 81, the second line from below; here is the gypsy, 6564, the name Rheinhardt Mideti, Josef, born on the 27th of August, 1913.
Q. Did you see him dead?
A. Yes.
Q. Go to the next entry, please.
A. At the extreme bottom of page 81 you find the gypsy, 6521, probably a Czech. His name is Rositzka, Josef; born on the 18th of December, 1909.
Q. And you also saw him dead?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any other entries there recording deaths as a result of the experiments?
A. No.
Q. Is that a complete list of those you know died as a result of the experiments you told the Tribunal about this morning?
A. Yes, these are the last cases of which I was speaking.
Q. Witness, that book that you have in your hand, do you certify that that is a true extract of the death book at Natzweiler, taken by yourself and two other inmates?
A. Yes.
Q. What is your home address now?
A. Rotterdam.
Q. What street number, please; so that we can return this book to you in due time, I want your name in the record and your address, so that we can fulfil the promise of returning these things to you after we have had them reproduced.
A. Yes, Nales, Gerrid, Hendrick; born-
Q. We don't need that. Just your street address, where we can mail this to you.
A. Slachekstraat, 87-A-Rotterdam
Q. And the name of that is Slaghek, is that correct?
A. Slaghekstraat, 87-A.
Q. That is in Rotterdam?
A. Rotterdam.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, at this time I would like to introduce this death book as certified by the witness, and give it a Prosecution exhibit number. This wil not, of curse, be introduced as an exhibit for identification, but as an exhibit formally, and the procedure in offering an exhibit with number and then having it reproduced, does the Tribunal wish that that duty be discharged by the Prosecution or the Secretary-General?
THE PRESIDENT: That duty should be performed by the SecretaryGeneral, who will be custodian of the volume and will return it to the owner after the usefulness of the book has been served here.
MR. HARDY: Thank you. I have no further questions, Your Honor.
I will mark that book as Prosecution's Exhibit 560 and entitle the book rather than give it a document number: "Death Book, Natzweiler," which is Exhibit 560.
THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit will be received in evidence with the understanding which I referred to a moment ago.
MR. HARDY: No further questions, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: I note the presence of Dr. Froeschmann, the attorney for the Defendant Brack.
The Tribunal, Doctor, has approved your application for the attendance of the witness in the Russian Zone, with the understanding, however, that the affidavit which you desire to take from this witness must be taken and presented to the Tribunal prior to the close of the evidence in the case.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Thank you, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross examination of this witness by defense counsel may proceed.
CROSS EXAMINATION DR. WEISGERBER (Counsel for defendant Sievers):
Q. Witness, from March 1942 until 4 September 1944 you were in Natzwiler?
A. Yes.
Q. From when were you working as an assistant nurse at the socalled departnent Ahnenerbe?
A. Ever since November 1942.
Q. November 1942? When did the so-called burning experiments start?
A. That was in November 1942.
Q. Very well. The experimental subjects came from outside or had they been selected in Natzweiler?
A. They were selected in the camp itself.
Q. You have already testified that these experimental subjects had volunteered?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know this fact?
A. They were selected at the block and they were told that this would be a simple matter only for which they would receive better nourishnent. In view of the need inside the camp these people volunteered.
Q. Who told that to these people?
A. The man who selected them.
Q. That was the camp physician?
A. The SS camp physician of Natzweiler.
Q. The SS camp physician of Natzweiler?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you personally present during that event?
A. No.
Q. From whom did you learn what the camp physician of Natzweiler told them?
A. The persons told me that themselves.
Q. A witness has already testified here, a witness who also came from Natzweiler, that Professor Hirt had held a lecture to these experimental subjects about the purpose of the experiments which he intended.
A. That was only later. That only happened after they had already been selected.
Q. But then Professor Hirt held a lecture?
A. Yes, but then they were already located at that department, that block.
Q. Well, these people had been requested to volunteer for special experiments in the camp at Natzweiler, the camp physician told then that this waste be an experiment, then the people were sent to the station, and here Dr. Hirt once more addressed them?
A. Yes, that is how it was--yes.
Q. You were speaking about the station Ahnenerbe. How did this station get this name "Ahenerbe."
A. Well, I cannot tell you that. I only know that that was the name. It was no secret.
Q. Well, it needn't be a secret. At any rate, we have established that at the time you went to that station the name "Station Ahnenerbe" already existed?
A. Yes, we had received this information in order to see that the drugs which we received would not be confused with the drugs that the other inmates in the camp had to receive. These drugs, these solutions or ointments were not to be used for the other inmates.
Q. Well, you yourself nursed these experimental subjects?
A. Yes.
Q. You were saying that three of these experimental subjects died?
A. Yes.
Q. When did they die? Can you ascertain that from your notes?
A. Yes. You will find that in my book.
Q. The date can be ascertained?
A. The month can be ascertained.
Q. Very well.
A. I did not have sufficient time to make an entry every day.
Q. Have you already returned the book?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. I shall once more have the book handed to you in order to enable you to ascertain the month or the months during which these three people had died in connection with the burning experiments. Would you please select these three months?
A. December 1942.
Q. That refers to the three cases of the first experiment?
A. Yes, December 1942.
Q. In what manner was the cause of death ascertained?
A. That happened in the dressing room. Once they were dead we immediately reported that fact. Either the professor or the assistant came along and examined these people. That was not our matter and once these corpses were released we transferred them to the crematory.
Q. In that way you cannot say what exactly the cause of death was in connection with these three people.
A. They had high fever and then a severe relapse. They had horrible wounds full of puss. They suffered terribly before they died.
Q. But, witness, I was asking you whether you know exactly what the cause of death was in these cases.
A. That I could not ascertain. I can only tell you what I saw.
Q. Now, Now big was this so-called department Ahnenerbe?
A. How do you mean--how many people?
Q. Well, I am asking you was it one barrack or was it only part of a barrack? How many rooms were in there?
A. We had a room No. 1 and a room No. 2. We had a pathological department and a room for treatments.
Q. Was this a barracks or a stone building?
A. No, it was part of a barracks, when you entered you found it on your left side, the left wing.
Q. Was it a normal wooden barracks?
A. Yes, a normal wooden barracks. That was repaired in the department Ahnenerbe.
Q. Can you give us approximately the size of that barracks, how long it was, how wide it was?
A. I think it was 96 meters.
Q. 96 meters long?
A. Yes, 96 meters long. I believe so. I cannot tell you that with certainty--about 7 meters wide.
Q. You think that this barracks was 96 meters long?
A. Yes, it was just an ordinary concentration camp barracks.
Q. Were there many such barracks in Natzweiler?
A. Certainly, at that time.
Q. I believe that you are in a position to estimate approximately what 96 meters means.
A. Yes.
Q. But you still remain at your opinion that it was 96 meters?
A. Yes, approximately 96 meters, 90 meters, something like that. I really didn't take too much interest in that.
Q. You were in Natzweiler in the years of 1943 and 1944?
A. Yes.
Q. Was this barrack at that tine still designated Ahnenerbe?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there any notice attached to this barrack?
A. No.
Q. Well, if I understand you correctly the barrack was designated as the Ahnenerbe barrack among the inmates?
A. That did not apply to all of the inmates, only those who knew.
Q. And how did these few inmates have that knowledge?
A. In every camp there are rumors and rumors pass from one to another.
Q. At any rate you have no exact material which culd tell us in what connection this barrack was with the Institute of Ahnenerbe?
A. I didn't quite understand you, counsel.
Q. In Berlin there was an institute called Ahnenerbe; do you know that?
A. That nay be. I don't know. I only know that they received their assignments from Berlin. I heard that once.
Q. And who received these assignments you are talking about?
A. Well, Strassbourg, Strassbourg perhaps, the professors of Strassbourg.
Q. But you know nothing authentic about it personally?
A. No.
Q. Witness, this morning you were telling us that the inmates who volunteered for these experiments were promised that they would be pardoned after the experiment. Furthermore, you stated that was never carried out?
A. No.
Q. These inmates who were used for these burning experiments, did they remain in that barracks during the subsequent period?
A. No.
Q. Well, where were they sent?
A. None of them got away. They all were transferred, they all became invalids and as invalid they were sent back to the camp. For some time they were employed in the weaving industry. However, they couldn't work there. They were just sitting around, and so one after the other was sent away on invalid transports and this is how they left.
Q. Did you have an opportunity to observe these inmates during the subsequent period?
A. Yes.
Q. How many inmates were there in Natzweiler?
A. In Natzweiler I think there were twelve hundred inmates, twelve hundred inmates. That is in the mother camp of Natzweiler. The Natzweiler camp had some outside branches. I think in the whole camp there were abut seven thousand inmates, during the last period.
Q. And do you mean to say that you always had an opportunity to observe these twelve inmates who were used for the burning experiments and ascertain how long they remained in the camp?
A. That is not at all difficult. It wasn't at all difficult to observe the people.
Q. Now, one more question. In the case of the experimental subjects used for the experiments of Dr. Haagen, were they also in the department of Ahnenerbe?
A. Yes, we had to vacate this department for that particular purpose because it was filled with other patients.
Q. And for whom was this department to be vacated?
A. For the research of Ahnenerbe.
Q. How do you know this latter fact, that this vacating was to be carried out for tho institute of Ahnenerbe?
A. We had received the order that this place was to be vacated because people would come from Auschwitz. That is the official in formation we received.
Q. But that this evacuation was to be carried out on behalf of the institute of Ahnenerbe, how did you know that?
A. I already told you that we received an order that this place was to be vacated since it was to be used for the Ahnenerbe.
Q. Did you ever see a written ordinance to that effect?
A. No.
Q. Who told you that? Who told you that these barracks were needed by the Ahnenerbe?
A. The camp physician of Natzweiler, the SS camp physician.
Q. Did he tell you that personally?
A. No, not me personally, but I was present. I received the order personally.
Q. To whom was the camp physician speaking?
A. He was speaking to the kapo of the hospital.
Q. Now, one more question in connection with the burning experiments. You were saying that Dr. Hirt on frequent occasions went to Natzweiler to this station. Were you present on all these occasions?
A. Whenever the professor came to visit us we were mostly engaged in the changing of dressings. We had to bathe these two people once every two hours and on this occasion he sometimes came in to examine the people. He was accompanied by a man from the Luftwaffe who photographed these people every day. He sometimes photographed them twice a day.
Q. Since you are saying that you were at this station regularly, you probably also have had an opportunity to observe whether visitors from outside came to that station?
A. Certainly.
Q. Did you receive frequent visits?
A. Sometimes, not exactly frequent.
Q. During the time when the typhus experiments were carried on, did you hear the name Sievers--Sievers?
A. I can't remember.
Q. Did you hear this name Sievers mentioned in connection with the burning experiments?
A. No, I cannot remember.
DR. WEISGERBER: Mr. President, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other cross examination of this witness by defense counsel?
MR HARDY: Before further cross examination continues, your Honor, if the cross examination and redirect examination, if any of this witness, are completed and there is still time left this afternoon, Dr. Tipp will be prepared to present his supplemental documents for the case of Becker-Freysing, so I am telling that to the Tribunal so they may have their supplemental copies available.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. FRITZ (Counsel for defendant Rose):
Q. Witness, did you know the nurse, male nurse, Holl?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know your countryman, Broers?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you also know a certain Grandjean?
A. Grandjean, yes.
Q. Were they also at this typhus experimental station?
A. Yes, he worked there but not at the Ahnenerbe department.
Q. Did these three people also know something about the execution of the experiments as you described them today?.
A. Certainly, they must have known about that but not in such detail, certainly not about typhus because at that time he was already in Baden-Baden. I mean Holl. But he know about the burning experiments.
Q. And how about the other two, Grandjean and your countryman?
A Yes, they certainly knew about these things but not to the same degree as I. They were not as often present as I was.
DR. FRITZ: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY DR. TIPP (Counsel for defendants Becker-Freyseng and Schroeder)
Q. Witness, if I understood you correctly, Professor Haagen, as you said, for the first time entered Natzweiler in October 1943; is that true?
A. Yes.
Q. You were furthermor saying that at first a transport of about a hundred gypsies arrived. You further said that Professor Haagen examined this transport and then sent these people away because they were not physically strong enough; is that true?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, witness, would you please tell us when Professor Haagen started with his vaccinations in Natzweiler?
A. That was approximately in November 1943.
Q. Is it possible, witness, that this was only in December of 1943?
A. One moment, please. It must have been at the end of November.
Q. Very well. On how many persons were these vaccinations performed, witness? I am talking about the vaccinations by Mr. Haagen.
A. Do you mean the beginning or the end or what?
Q. I want to put this question to you quite generally. When did Mr. Haagen start to work with these inmates?
A. I think that was in November, during the course of November 1943.
Q. And when were these experiments concluded?
A. A bout April, 1944, the typhus experiments?
Q. Yes, In other words from November 1943 until April of 1944. How many inmates did Mr. Haagen use as experimental subjects?
A. Approximately ninety.
Q. You were saying this morning, if I understood you correctly, witness, that these subjects were divided into two groups?
A. Yes.
Q. How many persons did one such group comprise?
A. Half. They were divided in exactly two groups.
Q. Could you please tell the Tribunal, witness, what exactly Mr. Haagen did with these groups? Tell us what he did with the first group and then what he did with the second.
A. The first group received a protective vaccination.
Q. Let me ask you, witness, if I understood you correctly, you are not a physician?
A. No, I am not.
Q. How then can you tell us exactly that Mr. Haagen vaccinated these people?
A. Well, I am a trained nurse. I have learned the nursing profession in Natzweiler.
Q. And within the framework of this education you gained enough knowledge in order to tell us what Mr. Haagen did with this first group was actually a protective vaccination?
A. Well, we had our physicians there too among the inmates, and they knew it just as well as I did.
Q. Well, who were these innate physicians, witness?
A. For instance, there was a Dutch Physician, Dr. Kredit, who unfortunately died of typhus.
Q. Was there another physician there?
A. No, there wasn't another physician in the typhus station perhaps Dr. Paulsson from Norway.