In this chart here, some such description would have to be given. Furthermore, it is not clear to me why, for instance, from my Department Economy, there is no connection to Handloser, while there is such a line from the office called Research. I think that these relationships which were with me and the chief of the Army Medical Service have to be described, as I described them before and that everything else in this chart can be left aside.
Q Then, I ask you to look at the next chart. It is No. 419. This is also a chart signed by the co-defendant Schroeder and is for the time from January 1, 1944 onward.
A I can only say the same thing in connection with this chart as I had said before; I am not well enough informed about the general matters with reference to my position at the date mentioned, January 1, 1944 as no change occurred compared to January 1, 1943. The only question may be the designation of the Reichs Commissar and that occurred three-quarters of a year later and cannot be included in that plan.
Q. As the fifth chart, I should like you to look at Document No. 416. This is a chart headed "Organizational Chart of the Medical Service of the SS" up to August 31, 1943 drawn up by the co-defendant, Professor Dr. Mrugowsky. I ask you in this case to define your attitude insofar as it concerns your position.
A. There is a blank line here going from my name personally. On the basis of the decree of July 28, 1942 the Chief of the Armed Forces Medical Service and this black line is or explained as the channel of command. The decree, which we discussed this morning, gives you no indication and does not justify such a description. It says that my function was the coordination between the Wehrmacht Medical matters and Civilian Medical matters and some especial tasks and I quote the 1 st decree of the 7th of August once more, that is a much later period so the superior office is really the Chief of the O.K.W. It can be seen from that the superior agency is the Chief of the O.K.W. That means that this black on this chart is certainly not correct and I am sure that Dr. Mrugowsky wanted to indicate some other description.
Q. How about your connection to the Reicharst SS Professor Grawitz?
A. That, of course, is completely ridiculous. I had no connection at all to Grawitz and certainly there was no channel of command emanating from me. I think there is material evidence to confirm that. I said this morning that after the signing of the decree the SS as such was very clearly outside my jurisdiction and that was done by the Fuehrer himself in the presence of Himmler.
Q. And I should now like to ask you to look at the last chart, No. 417, which is a second chart signed by the co-defendant Professor Dr. Mrugowsky, which deals with the period starting from September 1, 1943.
A. This chart is essentially the same as the one I looked at before. I should like to define my attitude with reference to my own position.
It is wrong because on September 1, 1943 I neither had the order to institute a Department for Science and Research nor was the second decree that is concerned with that matter issued at that time. With reference to Handloser and Grawitz, the same relationship exists as is indicated on the chart.
Q. Will you put these charts aside now? On the basis of the third decree, you had received a special position with reference to the execution of your old task. How did these new authorities actually affect practical developments?
AAt that time in the autumn of 1944 I had to take two basic difficulties into account, one was that the civilian charter was non-existent, that is decrees for the Chief of Civilian Medical Service. It was suggests by Minister Lammers and should have received similar designation, as the Chief of Medical Services of the Army, but it never originated. On the other hand, the authority of Dr. Goebbels took place at the same time with reference to results for total warfare. That has as its consequence that Dr. Goebells interfered and had the power to interfere in every department he could dispose of, and adopt measures which to him as he said at the time seemed necessary for optical reasons. One of the first measures in this respect was again the attempt to discontinue studies at highschools, and for this reason I had a heavy quarrel, a serious quarrel with him. I must point out that at that period of time the discussion between Dr. Conti and myself had intensified and Dr. Conti, with the support of Martin Bohrmann and his connection with the party chancellory and Gauleiter, made difficulties in every respect. During such a quarrel Dr. Goebbels arrived at a formulation which I did not understand at the time, when he said that I had to be quite clear that there were Martin Bormann against me, and with him the Gauleiters and also Dr. Conti. Afterwards I found out that the real cause that Martin Bormann was against my appointment as Reich Commissioner, and for this reason during my absence from the Fuhrer Headquarters put forth a number of arguments, which in his opinion would incriminate me.
Certainly some mention was made regarding my attempts to establish connection with the Red Cross, and a few other maybe not so other important factors were mentioned. At any rate a few days later I lost my position as Escort Physician of Adolph Hitler, what at that time I occupied. Hitler in these days had been ill, and he was only present in the headquarters for one day. At this occasion I was told that he would receive medical supplies from Professor Morrell, among which strychnine was available. It was not quite clear to me what he meant, since Professor Morrell, as personal physician since 1937 was responsible for internal diseases and had the order not to inform me about anything which concerned the Fuehrer himself. When I investigated the matter I found through a servant that Morrell a actually in January of the year 1944 had ordered these tablets which contained strychnine, but which at that time Hitler took in such an amount that he daily reached the maximum dosage. I pointed that out to Himmler, and I also spoke to Professor Morrell. I then left and two days later I was ordered to come back again, and very shortly without any further words was dismissed from that position as Escort Physician. My deputy was immediately dismissed too, and in his place the Escort Physician of Himmler, whom I did not know until later was appointed as my successor. Starting from this period of time my office was placed under control and ever increasing controls were exercised.
That is something I found out because of conferences which were heard at the Fuehrer's Headquarters which I attended a few times because of official business, and I was warned of a possible interference by Martin Bormann. In October 1944 I asked all my staff to come to me. There were only a few people, and I clearly told them about my situation. At the same time I told them that this should not desist them in any way from their technical work; everything which was not technical, which did not belong to their tasks should be left aside, and whatever was necessary should be continued under all circumstances. One has to look at the entire situation for that period of time, including the beginning of 1945, It was hardly possible to maintain a connection with one another. The possibility of Conti, in territories where troops were, Conti's position was not very important any longer, since the Army Medical Service also had to take care of civilian needs. At that time orders were given to transfer offices at that time located in Northern Germany. I had received directives from the Ministry of the Interior to transfer my office since it was not tied down to Berlin to Thuringia. This opportunity was at the end of March, and the first April days of 1945. I sent my family to the location of my office. This was used as reason for my arrest later, and I was condemned in a very peculiar procedure by the Gau Court in Thuringia. The procedure was peculiar for the reason that the judges who were to participate, that was an SS Obergruppenfuehrer, and one SA Fuehrer, had received a handwritten letter by Hitler before the procedure started, where it was said that a death sentence was to be passed on me. In this manner questions and answers were never in compliance, because my answer was always interpreted in such a manner it would lead to my sentencing. It was pointed out to me I was giving directives which caused the hospital to fall into enemies' hands, a measure which was a matter of course, because there was no purpose in sending wounded people from Western Germany to Eastern Germany and from Eastern Germany to Western Germany. It was pointed out I estab lished connections with Switzerland, and 1 think it concerned my attempt to establish contacts with the Red Cross in Geneva, in order to point out the medical difficulties in the overrun countries, -- in the overrun territories.
A sort of reserve of medical supplies, which was called by us a so-called "peace reserve", such a store was interpreted as a sign of depotism, and there is hardly any need to mention any one point.
At any rate the result was that I was transferred on the same day to the Gestapo Office in Prinz Albrechtstrasse in Berlin after the death sentence was confirmed, and I think it is due to Speer's effort that a postponement of the execution took place, a postponement of 24 hours, since it was tried to include Professor Rostock in that procedure who, in the meantime, had gone to sourthern Germany. Rostock was to be brought to Berlin. However, they were not in a position to find Rostock at that time since the communication system did not function quite well, since, in the meantime, the enemy had penetrated into Thuringia and Saxony.
After another few postponements of days and half-days I was transferred to a Gestapo office in Schwerin at the end of April. On the 28th of April this office received a teletype from Hermann from Berlin that I had to be sent to the prison in Kiel, but because of the advance of the Russians this Gestapo office had to move towards the west, to Flensburg, so that they could not go to Kiel, which had as its course that I was subsequently liberated around the middle of May.
Q. So that was your situation, the situation under which you received your authority as Reich commissioner. That was the reason I put that question to you.
DR. SERVATIUS: Mr. President, I am now coming to the experiments in detail and this may be an opportune moment to start a recess.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess for a few moments.
(Recess was taken)
THE PRESIDENT: I will ask the reporter if he has a correction to make for the benefit of the record, the translator, I mean.
INTERPRETER (Mr. Rambler) Yes, your Honor. The word mentioned earlier today, the German word, hydrierwerke, should have been translated as hydrogenation works, which is the works for the process of the refinement of gasoline.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed. I will suggest to the reporter and the Secretary General that they see that the translation as contained in the record appears correctly.
Q. (By Dr. Servatius) I have one more question on the old subject. Witness, when did you lose your position as escort physician of the Fuehrer? Was it after you had become Reich Commissioner or before?
A. No, that was afterwards, shortly afterwards.
Q. Was there any connection as far as motives are concerned?
A. One may assume a connection because I became Reich Commissioner against the will of Martin Bormann and he tried everything to influence Hitler against me. He probably submitted the letter from me which he had obtained from Dr. Conti when I joined the SS Physicians' League which I mentioned this morning, when I put down in writing that I did not want to do any active SA or SS service. I have been told about similar things and arguments.
Q. That is enough. Now I come to the experiments. As Document KB Number 2, I submit a chart, the correctness of which you will certify -
DR. SERRVATIUS: Mr. President, the chart is not yet ready in English. I shall turn in one copy in German. It is primarily a chart which is understandable in itself. It shows the duration of the experiments in columns and there are red lines crosswise which show the position of the witness in each case. Right at the bottom his last position as Reich Commissioner and above that his position after the second decree, so that during the examination one will always have a picture of the chronological relationship of an experiment with the position of the witness.
Q. (By Dr. Servatius) Witness, you have the document before you?
A. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. Has the Prosecution a copy of this chart?
MR. McHANEY: Yes.
Q. (By Dr. Servatius): You prepared this chart. Is it correct as far as the entries of your position after the second and third decrees chronologically?
A. It is correct as far as this decree is concerned, and I have also entered under Number 6-D, Lost, and in 6-A, Sulfonomide, when I learned of these two groups of experiments concerning the Hirt and Gebhardt experiments.
DR. SERVATIUS: Then please put this chart to one side. I offer the document as Exhibit Number 2.
THE PRESIDENT: Referring to document of June 4, 1945, this document was identified January 27 as Karl Brandt's Exhibit 1 for identification. It has not yet been formally offered as a exhibit before the Tribunal in this case. Does the defendant desire now to offer it as an exhibit? It was merely identified. I mean this document, counsel.
JUDGE SEBRING: Dr. Servatius, during the case of the prosecution on 27 January 1947 you exhibited, as I recollect, to one of the prosecution's witnesses an excerpt from "Life" magazine. At that time the Court was of the view that although it could then be catalogued as Karl Brandt's exhibit for identification only in order to eliminate confusion, that it should be offered prior to the exhibit you have in your hand, as Karl Brandt's Exhibit Number 1.
DR. SERVATIUS: I should like to submit it as Exhibit 1, but it is not available at the moment. That is why I left that number open and submit this document as Exhibit Number 2.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
MR. McHANEY: The Prosecution has just a formal question with respect to Karl Brandt's Document No. 2, and I understand it is now being offered as Exhibit No. 2 for Karl Brandt. I don't think we have any great objection to it going in as an exhibit, but there is some question in my mind as to whether or not it really isn't a matter of argument rather than a document which has any probative value in and of itself. It simply purports to give the chronology of the various experiments charged in the indictment together with the three decrees which vested the Defendant, Karl Brandt, with certain authority. I don't know but what it would be better if this document not be included as an exhibit in the record but simply presented as a matter of argument.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel for the Prosecution may have time to study this document. It can be used today for examination. Counsel may study it tonight and inform the Tribunal in the morning if he agrees that it is correct or if he does not, and then Counsel may cross examine the witness upon this particular document if no desires to do so. The Tribunal will delay passing on the admissibility or non-admissibility of the document until tomorrow morning, but it may be used this afternoon by Counsel for the Defendant in examination of the witness.
BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q. Witness, I shall go into the individual experiments in the order in which they are listed in the indictment. First we come to the freezing experiments here during the trial. Did you have any part in them?
A. No, I had no part in the freezing experiments. I heard of these experiments for the first time after I was arrested. If I recall correctly, it was last year when I was here in Nurnberg. Before that I had no knowledge of them. It is not quite clear to me in what way my Office for Science and Research could have been informed about it. It is possible that a general report was received there. Schroeder said once in another connection that copies of reports were sent there, but I believe that the freezing experiments were so long ago -- I don't have the table of chronology here.
May I -- that I don't believe I had that Office for Science and Research yet at that time. The freezing experiments were in May -- they were already concluded in May, 1943. That was at least three months before the nominal decree according to which I was to establish an Office for Science and Research which actually went into operation only in 1940.
Q. You want to correct yourself; you mean '44?
A. Yes. '44.
Q. How about Count C, malaria experiments?
A. I learned of malaria experiments only after I was arrested. I knew nothing about them before. During the whole war I had something to do with malaria on two occasions quite independently of the experiments mentioned here. Once the dean of the University of Bonn, Professor Schulemann, in his capacity as a medical officer had a small malaria hospital near Bonn in which the normal treatment of refractory patients was carried on. Because of an air raid on Bonn, the continuation of this hospital and the University Institute was endangered, and he approached me on this matter. We never discussed any experiments. I never made any such request of him or he never made any such request of me. The other time when I had something to do with malaria was that Professor Rose, who was carrying out malaria treatment on insane persons, or at least had a part in them, approached me about the sheltering of these patients. He came to me because -- it was either 1943 or '44 -- because in connection with the transfer evacuation of hospitals I was connected with an agency of the Propaganda Ministry, and he knew from the Luftwaffe through some agencies of the Air Raid Precaution Medical Service that I was connected with it. I told Rose at that time to go to the competent agency in the Ministry of the Interior, and he did whatever was necessary. He took up the necessary negotiations. I had nothing else to do with malaria or with patients suffering from malaria.
Q. What did you have to do with lost experiments? Do you remember the diary of Sievers, the final report of Himmler -- the final report of Hirth?
A. After I had received the assignment to make gas masks on the first of March, '44, at the end of the same month Sievers called on me and on Himmler's orders, as he said, he gave me a final report of Professor Hirth about the treatment of lost injuries.
He visited me in my office in Belitz. He said nothing else. The word "Ahnenerbe" was not mentioned. Nothing was said about any other work of a scientific nature administered from there, and I promised him that in April, in the next month, I would visit Professor Hirth myself. Sievers could not give me any further information about it, and apparently did not have any inclination to do so either. Then in the following month since I was in Strassbourg for another reason, I visited Professor Hirth there once. That was at the end of April, 1944. Mr Hirth explained to me the essential points of his plan of treatment, and with the aid of a number of animal preparations, he explained what he had called significant in this final report. It was the question of supplying the organism with vitamins and the role of destroying poison which the liver plays in connection with lost damage. I assume that I was with him for about one hour, certainly no longer. With the aid of a number of explanations of a chemical nature which I cannot repeat altogether, the final conclusion was that it was necessary if one wants to treat lost injuries to introduce certain vitamin groups into the organism in larger quantities. In this conversation between Mr. Hirth and myself the question of illegal or special human experiments was certainly not brought up, not because there was the impression that we were trying to avoid anything, but because the questions asked during my visit to Mr. Hirth were of an entirely different nature from the beginning. I was there after I had read Hirth's report in order to obtain information about the special vitamin questions.
It was, of course, Mr. Hirth's interest to present his special viewpoint, and if one considers general lost treatment, this was not anything so special. The previous treatment with liver oil salvo had the same aim. It is not clear to me whether in the course of 1944 I had any further connection with Mr. Hirth. It is possible that there was some correspondence. It cannot have been important. I never say Hirth again. I never visited him again. I had no further contact with him.
Q Now, what about the sulfanilamide experiments. Did you understand the question about sulfanilamide and the treatment of wounds?
A Shortly after the beginning of the war and in every theater of the war the question of the sulfanilamide was discussed. At that time sulfanilamide was exactly the same thing, that a few years later, in the United States, penicillin was. Every one was interested in it, and the Professor Morrell, whom I mentioned before, had developed his sulfanilamide experiments, and the question of sulfanilamide was discussed at large. A sulfanilamide treatment in the Wehrmacht was started with the clear formula, with the aim -- I must mention the name of Professor Krueger because anybody who had anything to do with it knew what it was about, and besides Professor Brack, who was a consulting surgeon at that time, should have been interested in the question from a purely scientific point of view. This was my connection with Professor Rostock and with the Chief of the Medical Services of the Armed Forces, Dr. Handloser. An attempt was made amongst the troops to obtain clear results - clear findings about the effectiveness of sulfanilamide. I, mystelf, in 1944, had a special hospital, ambulance, and so-forth. I had made them available, thinking that instead of the usual type of observation, we would have to accompany the wounded with a type of hospital from the first wound at the front until final healing. The doctors should always be under one chief; that is, the treatment of the patients should be controlled from the beginning to the end, which otherwise was interrupted by transfer from one hospital to another. In all the questions of sulfanilamide there was no case of the Gebhardt experiments. I know that Professor Gebhardt once thought that after he finished his experiments, but before the report in the Military Medical Academy, he had informed me about this question. I believe he was mistaken when he said this, and he will probably confirm this himself, that he made a mistake. I can only say that before Gebhardt announced his experiments in the Military Medical Academy, I was definitely not informed. I did not order the sulfanilamide experiments. I did not have any other connection with them. I was informed by the report in March 1943, in the Military Medical Academy - May 1943, in the Military Medical Academy.
The nature of the report of Gebhardt did not give me the impression that the experiments, themselves, had been conducted in any criminal manner.
Q Did you object to the report?
A No, I had the impression, and Gebhardt will probably confirm this, that Gebhardt gave the description in such a way that those present at this report had to gain the impression that he had tested a limited number who were effectively condemned to death. So, I certainly aid not object in any form; otherwise I would have a different memory of the report than I do. I cannot recall the actual wording of the report. I remember the fact that I was there, and that I did not object. From that, I conclude that Gebhardt made his report in such a way that those who were present, who heard, the report had no reason to object in any way.
Q Persons condemned to death were mentioned. Did you have any misgiving that such death sentences were completely unobjectionable from the legal point of view?
A No, I did not have any misgivings in that form. I said before that if I received such I would have misgivings.
Q Now, I come to the experiments on transplantations and regeneration. Were you informed about them?
A I can say nothing about these experiments. I was informed of them only here in Nurnberg. I knew nothing about them before. I have nothing, whatever, to say about them. I was temporarily of the opinion that they were reported in some other form; although I was not present at the discussion but later on, that was not the case.
Q Now, you are changed with participation in the Sea Water Experiments. Do you have anything to say about that?
A I learned of the Sea Water Experiments for the first time through the Indictment. I knew nothing about them beforehand. I did not learn of them -- I had no part in them, and I only know of them after reading the Indictment. I could not, at first, realize what it was about. I assume if Schaefer says in his affidavit that he thought that the higher circles of physicians knew of this problem, that it was an open secret, he probably meant the people who participated.
Q He will be able to tell us that. Now, did you have anything to do with removing poison from water?
A I had a conference in Berlin for obtaining apparatus for disposing of poison gas. It was a question of obtaining apparatus for the war against chemical agents. Apparatus for removing poison from water was discussed but no final decision was reached. I met Mr. Mrugowsky once, who was connected with such apparatus; this removing of prison from drinking water after gas attacks.
Q Then, the Indictment lists experiments with Hepatitis. A letter from Grawitz to Himmler says that you furthered these experiments. Did you, yourself, work on this question, clinically?
A I never did any work with Hepatitis Epidemica. If so, it would have had to have been during the war, since before the war this disease was of no importance in Germany during the war. I did not deal with this question because I was to busy with other things in the first place, and in the second place such a purely internal disease is of interest to Hygienist, and was relatively uninteresting to me as a surgeon.
Q Did you issue research assignments on this subject? How about Doctor Dohmen?
A I do not know why I should have given a research assignment to Doctor Dohmen. Of course, the question of Hepatitis was a question which interested everyone. Every one encountered it everywhere in the East. But, for that reason I would not have given special attention to that disease. It had no relation together things which interested me more as a surgeon. I know the letter. I was told about it last year. I saw it here for the first time, this year. It says that I had asked Mr. Grawitz to have a Doctor Dohmen carry out special Hepatitis work. Doctor Dohmen, the letter goes on, was to obtain seven or eight prisoners for that purpose and the lives of these prisoners would be endangered. It is not clear to me in what connection and for what reason, in the letter, mentioned my name as the instigator of Hepatitis research for in all the rest of the correspondence and in all the other documents there is not even the slightest hint that I had any particular interest in this question or that I was so interested that I could have started it.
Assuming that the experiments were carried out, I would never have received any report citing results. There are indications against the sense of this letter, especially when it says these experiments are to be carried out on persons to be condemned to death. Hepatitis Epidemica is not a disease as dangerous as all that. I have inquired meanwhile, and know that for example, compared with Malaria it is dangerous only about tenth of a fraction as Malaria. Today, I have already discussed my relationship with Himmler and with Grawitz; that was not invented; that was actually the truth. On the other hand, all the correspondence - in all the correspondence, Hepatitis, one year later, after the first letter failed to have the desired effect, Professor Schrieber is looking for a way to approach Himmler in order to have Hepatitis research work continued.
Schriber was the deputy for epidemic control in the Reich Research Council so that I may assume for a reason which is not quite clear to me that Grawitz possibly confused Schrieber and me in the first letter. That is conceivable. The letter is dated the 1st of June, 1943, a short time before there was the meeting of the Military Medical Academy and probably Grawitz, who was present, talked to Schreiber as well. In any case I am not able to give any information about this question of hepatitis and certainly not about any experiments which actually book place. I have no information; I received no report; and I did not hear from any other source even now that these experiments were really conducted. It seems to me significant that the witness Schmidt who was here testified that the experiments were not conducted in Strasbourg, as Dohmen, who was to conduct them, was there for only two or three days himself.
MR. McHANEY: If it please the Tribunal, I don't like to get up and object; but it seems to me that the witness should confine himself to answering questions which are put to him by his defense counsel and refrain from making arguments on the basis of the evidence which has gone in. He has now been discussing at length the testimony of various witnesses and the assumptions that he draws from them. I think that argument can be taken care of by defense counsel at the appropriate time.
DR. SERVATIUS: Mr. President, the answers were no doubt all essential. Whether I chop these questions up in pieces or let the witness speak consecutively makes no great difference in my case. It would only take longer and would be confused. But if the Court wants me to ask him short questions. I will do so.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel has been proceeding satisfactorily with the examination of the witness. The witness has included occasionally matters of argument which might properly be made by his counsel but has not consumed much time; and the prosecution witnesses were allowed considerable latitude also. The examination may proceed in the manner in which it has been conducted heretofore.
Q Witness, you are accused of participation in sterilization experiments.
You know the documents which the prosecution has submitted. When did you first learn of this problem?
A I learned of this problem of sterilization after I was arrested here; and I learned for the first time only now the type of procedure. From this fact that two or three minutes of X-ray treatment was intended to sterilize I want to prove that I certainly did not know about it for that is such an unscientific conception of this biological process that one cannot imagine any doctor would be in favor of such a plan. I was connected with it by the fact that a Doctor Schumann, who was connected with an agency of Bouhler, was involved in this question. I cannot remember ever having seem or talked to this Doctor Schumann. I certainly never gave him any instructions to take up this question of sterilization; and I was not consulted, I was not asked whether he could do that or not; and the name of Dr. Glauberg, who also played a role in this, I heard only here during the trial. Concerning Dr. Schumann, whom I mentioned first, and the agency in which he worked, I must add that I never entered his office and, of course, I had no influence on the hiring of personnel by Bouhler's agency.
Q We'll come back to that when we discuss euthanasia. What part did you have in the typhus experiments?
A I learned of the typhus experiments, not details, just the fact that such experiments were conducted, as far as I can recall in interrogations last year; but it may have been at the end of 1945. It is asserted in the documents that my agency and Prof. Rostock were informed; but this means only that the subject but not the manner of execution was discussed if at all. Rostock was not asked for approval for the execution of these measures; but I know that in this case he received a carbon copy. I can testify about these experiments only what has been presented by the prosecution here in documents.
Q Now, did you hear of the report at Hohenlichen and protest by Prof. Rose?
A No, as far as I am informed this protest of Prof. Rose's was not reported in the minutes of this meeting at Hohenlichen. If typhus was dis cussed then, this was within a certain group of interested persons; and I did not participate in it.
Q Witness, now there are a number of points which are not directly the subject of the indictment but which have been brought up here in the course of the trial, the questions of biological warfare, polygal treatment, phlegmon, cancer research. Did you have anything to do with any of these fields?
A Of those which you have mentioned, phlegmon, cancer, I can answer only that I learned of them solely here through the prosecution. Also about the polygal experiments. I may say the following about the polygal experiments, that Prof. Rostock on the basis of a publication about the blood coagulation drug polygal in the Munchener Weekly approached this paper, this magazine, and asked for further information. The fact that he approached this magazine on the basis of the published article shows clearly that he had no previous knowledge; and after that he did not receive any further information abut these things. I know nothing about phlegmon experiments. I knew nothing about them before. If biological warfare is discussed, I must explain a little. When I received the assignment on the 1st of March, 1944, about the chemical warfare apparatus, Field Marshal Keitel spoke to me and asked me whether I was informed about biological warfare. I said "No," then he told me the following: In 1943 and apparently at the beginning of 1944, too, altogether three times on express orders from Hitler, he had passed on instructions that preparations against defense measures, against biological warfare, were forbidden as well as offensive measures; but he said it would be important if I had some knowledge of what work foreign countries were doing on biological warfare; and he said that through Generaloberstabsarzt Handloeser I should go to Stabsarzt Klieve, who was gathering the material, I obtained the permission from Handloeser to talk to Klieve; and then I did talk to Klieve; and he showed me the material which agents had brought him, which showed that preparations for biological warfare were being made by the United States and, above all, by Russia.