As far as Conti played any role here personally, they were differences concerning x-ray machinery, x-ray apparatus. I gave an x-ray company the assignment to establish our supply of x-ray apparatus. Conti told this company and the head of the company not to carry out this assignment. This was the conflict with Dr. Conti in connection with the Second Decree aside from the general medical program tasks which were the most urgent things.
Q. Didn't this Second Decree expressly state that your authority covered the field of medical science and research?
A. As far as it is to be understood in the sense of Decree No. 2, I established an office for that reason called Office for Science and Research.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:30 o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, the defendant Doctor Oberheuser, wishes to be excused because of her health today after 3 O'clock.
THE PRESIDENT: On request of Counsel for the defendant Oberheuser, the defendant Oberheuser may be excused from attendance in the court room after 3 o'clock this afternoon.
The Tribunal has considered the question raised this morning by Doctor Sauter for the defendant Ruff, and under tho peculiar circumstances of this case, tho Tribunal orders that Doctor Sauter be permitted to talk to the witness Hippke from this time on, and the order previously issued by tho Tribunal is modified to that extent.
The Prosecution may proceed.
MR MC HANEY: If the Tribunal pleases, with respect to the ruling just made, is the Prosecution required to apply or obtain the clearance from any and all the Defense Counsel prior to the interrogation of Hippke on the part of the Prosecution.
THE PRESIDENT: It is not the intention of the Tribunal to include any such provision in the rule just made.
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q Herr Brandt, I would appreciate it if, in answering the question which I will put to you, if you would make your answers brief and concise as possible in order not to prolong the interrogation to too great an extent. We were speaking of the second Fuehrer's decree of 5 September 1943. This decree empowers you with centrally coordinating and directing the problems and activities of the entire Medical and Health Service. Was it part of your functions pursuant to this decree to coordinate and direct medical research.
A The sense of the wording in that decree was to avoid having research assignments going entirely to one or the other, and in order to insure that if three or four agencies were working on the same subject, that they be coordinated to start on a common task; that is to say, the results of one group should or accessible to another. This fact accelerated the completion of the tasks with which we ware commissioned.
Q Well, then, if I understood you correctly, it was the purpose and function of your office to coordinate all medical research work in Germany?
A The word "all" goes a little to far perhaps. In order to do that I would have had to have an extensively large office, a larger agency that I had.
Q Did you receive copies of research orders at the time by the medical service of the Wehrmacht and the civilian sector?
A I assume that cert in information came from the civilian and the military sectors.
Q Didn't that decree then give you the power to stop experimentation on human beings, if you had received knowledge of such experimentations and regarded it is improper?
A In such a case, the question would have arisen about whose arm was longer For instance, if the Reichmarshal, through one of his delegates, maybe within the framework of the Reich Research Counsel, and perhaps in connection with Himmler, had order tasks, such an influence on my part would probably have not been possible.
Q I can agree and understand, Herr Brandt, that in a given situation it may be that your objections would have been overridden, but my question was whether you did not receive authority to intervene with respect to medical experimentations, to the best of your ability and power?
A The question of human experiments was not touched upon at all when this decree originated. It was neither assumed nor rejected with that order. What we understand by this order was an order to our scientific academies. It was a completely different line of thought than those which have arisen here. That is why this question with reference to the decree is a question put retrospectively, and not a question which was considered when the decree originated.
Q When did you appoint Rostock as chief of your Office for Scientific Research? And I ask you to distinguish between the use of the word "appoint" and the time as of which he may have became active.
A It is not possible for me to give you the date when this appointment took place. It certainly occurred sometime before the office was opened. It may perhaps not have been declared formally; but Rostock knew that he was going to assume such an office. As to any written appointment, no such appointment was made.
Q As I recall you have previously testified that Rostock became active in the Office for Science and Research in February, 1944. Is that correct?
A Since we had our office in Belitz we exercised our practical work there. It was possible that before this he wrote some letters from his clinic; but I could only refer to an office in Belitz; and that approximately took place in February of 1944.
Q But you don't exclude the possibility that Rostock may have been active in the Office for Science and Research before that time in the office at the university clinic or elsewhere?
A It may perhaps be better to explain it in the following way, that if Rostock had asked anything with reference to science and research before the assumption of his duties, I would have been the chief myself, and Rostock would have written as my deputy or representing me.
Q Didn't Rostock as a matter of fact perform duties for you as general commissioner before 5 September 1943?
A I had no functions for him, and Rostock certainly did not hold the office of a general secretary or anything like that. Maybe he asked for information on my orders, for instance, some questions that he put with reference to various medical equipment; and he also discussed the question of consulting various professional experts. But I can't recall exactly what period of time that took place. If he did that, it had to be understood that I was doing it and he was merely taking some of the burden of my work.
that form. Neither did it happen that Rostock or my department, Science and Research, were concerning ourselves with these questions alone. There were also certain departments in the ministry of Speer which started functioning in the year of 1944.
Q Didn't you and Rostock have the power to decide on the necessity and priority of all medical research work?
A The question of urgency of these research assignments was not directed by Rostock nor by me. The degree of urgency was dictated by certain urgency priority designations which were given by the various research groups. I don't think that I could answer that question with "yes."
Q Didn't you and Rostock then have the power to decide on the necessity of certain research work?
A It has to be considered in the light that one could aid institutes to carry out work.
AAnd you also saw to it if two or three independent groups were working on the same medical problem that their efforts were coordinated, did you not?
A It could well occur. I think two questions arose. Two or three groups could work on the same field; for instance, at various places work was done on penicillin. But that has to be separated from the fact that scientific research itself had certain organizational frames. For instance, there was the Reich Research Council; and then there was a department, Science and Research, the Ministry of the Interior with Dr. Conti. Then, of course, there was the Ministry of Education itself, which dealt with such tasks within its institute.
Q Herr Brandt, how could you and Rostock perform this coordinating function of medical research without knowing what was being done in respect to medical research by the various groups working on a given problem?
A This task could really not be fulfilled in this manner. In order to fulfill it completely, it would have become necessary that I held a much larger position and a larger office than Rostock had at that time.
Q I understand, Herr Brandt, that you accept responsibility for Rostock's actions; but I now want to find out the extent of his cooperation and activity with you prior to 5 September 1943. Now can you give me any period of time prior to that date that he was active with you?
A It is hardly possible to give you any date. Maybe he knows it himself; but I really could not fix a date.
Q You had offices in the university clinic in Berlin, the same building in which Rostock had an office, did you not?
A Rostock was my chief there, yes, clinical chief.
Q What was Rostock's connection with the Reichsforschungsrat, the Reich Research Council?
AAfter I became a member of the Reich Research Council, that is, after November 1942, then at a later date--I don't know whether it was 1943 or 1944--the question arose that a representative had to be appointed for the Research Council. When this question arose, Rostock took over his duties as my representative as a member of the Research Council.
Q Do you remember more exactly when that took place?
A No, it is not possible for me to say that.
Q Was it before or after the decree of 5 September 1943?
A I can't say that.
Q As chief of your Office for Science and Research, did Rostock investigate what medical assignments the Reich Research Council had made?
A He approached certain organizations in order to find out what research assignments were given out; and I assume that he received material from the Reich Research Council for that purpose and then received current reports on the work which was done. But whether he actually turned to the Reich Research Council for special information, I cannot say at the moment. I am sure that he will be able to testify about that very clearly.
Q Did he not investigate these research assignments and see what was being done and then decide on their essentiality?
A I think the question was first as to the subject; he was informed about the subject. The manner of the execution of these research assignments and the extent of these assignments was certainly not reported in Rostock, in addition to his other work, has managed that work.
The question was that certain matters of science and research had to be aided and academies also belonged to that question. The question which you put on the basis of the wording of the decree was not in accordance with the factual events as they took place.
Q Wouldn't Rostock as Chief of the Office for Science and Research go to the Reichforschungsrat and investigate what medical research was being carried on there and direct that priority be given to one medical research task as against another?
A It would perhaps take such a proposal, but the profession medicine within the Reich Research Council was not headed by him. For that there was a special expert designated; and he in turn was subordinated to Goering personally. It is the same relationship as was discussed with reference to Generalarzt Schreiber. In this capacity as plenopotentiary of the Reich Research Council he was also only subordinated to Goering. Therefore, it was only possible over Goering's head, that is only with his consent to give a directive to the professional expert in the Reich Research Council. It would have been different if Rostock had made a proposal to this professional expert, and he had approved it and then started to work on it, or executed such work. This, however; s till means that this professional expert was independent.
Q Herr Brandt; Wilhelm Goering was interrogated about the Medical activity of the Reichforschungsrat from the same chair in which you are sitting, and I am sure it will come as no surprise to you that he was no more anxious to accept responsibility for what went on within the framework of that organization than you are, and as you say you were too busy with other matters, the Reich Marshal protests the same and I am now trying to investigate to find out just who can be responsible for these medical activities at the Reichforschungsrat, and I ask you whether Rostock to your knowledge ever proposed or ordered anybody in the Reich Research Council to give priority to certain medical research work being sponsored by the Reich Research Council?
A The Reich Research Council was an institution which was subordinated to Goering by special decree. Before that it had been an institution of the Ministry of Education. On the strength of that decree Goering became as a president of the Reich Research Council that man who had to assume Rostock could make any proposals as to degrees of urgency of the work that was done in the Reich Research Council, I cannot say, and I should like to say again that he probably could talk about that.
If in this case the expert in the Council, and here we are only concerned with medicine, if he in turn recognizes that proposal of Rostock this does not mean to say that Rostock was the superior of the Reich Research Council. According to the charter of the Reich Research Council and according to the material that I know about that matter, the expert was very clearly subordinated only to the President.
Q Your answer is then that you yourself do not know of any specific instance when Rostock proposed or ordered that a certain research task should give priority by the Reich Research Council, is that correct?
AAt the moment I cannot remember that anything like that has happened. I think it possible that he proposed it. He would probably know more about it than I do. I really appointed him for the purpose of being active in the Office for Science and Research.
Q But you assume the responsibility for his acts pursuant to the operation of the Office for Science and Research, don't you?
A Certainly, I assume it.
Q Now, the decree of 25 August 1944 gave you the title of Reich Commissioner, did it not?
A Yes.
Q And that gave you an office equivalent in rank to a Reich Minister, didn't it?
A My position was considered as a position of a State Secretary.
Q And since you were subordinated directly to Hitler your office was in a position similar to that of the Reich Youth Leader Von Schirak in the organization Todt?
A I made no comparison before. That may be an administrative political question.
Q Well, Wilhelm Frick has drawn a chart on which he shows your office, you holding an office similar to Von Schirak in the organization Todt?
A I should like to say in reference to the position of my office, Minister Lammers could make some statements, since he at that time played some part in the framing of the decree in the year 1944.
Frick maybe had some kind of imagination about it, but when I became Reich Commissioner Frick had not been Reich Minister of the Interior for a year and a half, so he spoke as a Reich protector for Bavaria and Moravia, so I don't know if he could overlook a situation like that.
Q Did the decree of August 1944 give you any power in addition to that which you had as a practical matter on the 5th of September 1943?
A He said that the authorities at that time were not opposed and he therefore gave me the responsibility to carry out the tasks which were assigned and the basis for the assignment was the decree of July 1942.
Q Well, precisely what additional powers did you receive in the decree of 25th August 1944?
A The decree stated that in order to carry out my task I had the right of directive to those agencies which were dealing with questions of medical services, that is State, Party and Armed Forces.
Q Conti really knew he was your subordinate after this decree, didn't he?
A Neither Conti became my subordinate on the basis of this decree or Generalstabsoberst Handloser. If it had been one it would have been the other.
Q Didn't Conti, as a matter of fact, subordinate himself to you after this decree of 25 August 1944?
A No subordination was mentioned in this decree. This decree was not a decree which created any Ministry of Health where I became its chief, but on the strength of this decree my possibilities of functioning were extended, -and the word "extended" probably wouldn't be quite right - "strengthened" would be better. I have stated that the decisive thing for the creation of this decree was the attitude of Conti, who prohibited his associates to aid me in my tasks which were assigned me by the Reich.
Q. Well, that is what I say. After this decree Conti was no longer able to put up any objections, was he?
A. Certainly he could raise objections. We were not concerned that I became his superior in the Ministry of the Interior but we were concerned that whenever I received any assignment I could only carry it out with the air of other institutes. The budget of my office was kept so low that it was impossible to carry out the task which I received. As I just mentioned, the work I had in my office Planning and Economy it was necessary to extend it by aid of the Ministry of Economy. Ministry of Speer, and maybe use Industry itself. The Four Year Plan at that time no longer played a decisive role. Since, however, that was not possible the situation was that the tasks were carried out with the help of cert in parts of these agencies. But, I did not become the superior of the Ministry of Speer, the Labor Ministry, and the same was true in relation to Dr. Conti. If a demand was put to me to carry out some additional medical care, for instance in the Ruhr territory, I could only do this with the support and administrative help of the Civilian Health System, Dr. Conti on one side and the agency of Generaloberstabsarzt Handloser on the other side. If one of these parties rejected such aid, the carrying out of measures which I had to carry through was made impossible. Whenever I took over such a task I was always responsible for its carrying out and I could only be that if I received aid from the two participants accordingly, but there was no relationship of superiority.
Q. This decree represented something of a triumph over Conti and Bormann, did it not?
A. The circumventing of Bormann could not come about by the signing of this decree.
Q. But he was opposed in fact to you, was he not, Herr Brandt?
A. Yes, that was so.
Q. So it would be true to say that the issuance of this Third Fuehrer Decree did constitute something of a triumph over Bormann on your part?
A. I would be ashamed if the word "triumph" would play some part if it is in reference to the task which I had to carry out and which I had to take over.
The material work which I had to carry out went far above any personal feeling and certainly above my feeling towards an enemy.
Q. Herr Brandt, you do protest so much that I think I may have to put a document to you. I have here in front of me the minutes of the report of party member, Dr. Gross, to the Reichsleiter, dated 6 October 1944, which says "present relationship between Dr. Conti and Professor Bormann is such that Dr. Conti at the request of Bormann and Himmler is to keep his position as Reich Commissioner for Health. In the meantime Dr. Conti has subordinated himself to Professor Brandt. Therefore, Bormann drops Dr. Conti altogether." I ask you again if this Third Fuehrer Decree doesn't represent something in the nature of a triumph on your own part over some very powerful forces that were opposing you?
A. I can only repeat what I have said before. In such a case the question of material necessity is more important than any personal fooling. I knew at the time after this degree, without referring to these events that you have just mentioned, I knew at that time I had hardly any contact with Martin Bermann. The question of a subordinate of Conti under me arose but it never came about and certainly was never intended by the decree. Otherwise some other title, some other position would have originated than Reich Commissioner. The position of Conti and Generaloberstabarzt Handloser were exactly the same to me. There was no talk about that whatsoever.
Q Did Hitler ever show his appreciation of your good work by gifts of money?
AAt one time I received money from the Fuehrer.
Q When?
A Perhaps was in the year of 1943, or perhaps 1942. But, I do think it was 1943, but it may have been 1944. But, I think it is more perhaps 1944 than in 1942.
Q How much money were you given?
AAt that time I received money amounting to 50,000 marks. And, about 30,000 remained for myself because of certain expenditures I had at that time it is in reference to the task which I had to carry out and which I had to take over.
The material work which I had to carry out went far above any personal feeling and certainly above my feeling towards an enemy.
Q. Herr Brandt, you do protest so much that I think I may have to put a document to you. I have here in front of me the minutes of the report of party member, Dr. Gross, to the Reichsleiter, dated 6 October 1944, which says "present relationship between Dr. Conti and Professor Bormann is such that Dr. Conti at the request of Bormann and Himmler is to keep his position as Reich Commissioner for Health. In the meantime Dr. Conti has subordinated himself to Professor Brandt. Therefore, Bormann drops Dr. Conti altogether." I ask you again if this Third Fuehrer Decree doesn't represent something in the nature of a triumph on your own part over some very powerful forces that were opposing you?
A. I can only repeat what I have said before. In such a case the question of material necessity is more important than any personal feeling. I knew at the time after this degree, without referring to these events that you have just mentioned, I knew at that time I had hardly any contact with Martin Bermann. The question of a subordinate of Conti under me arose but it never came about and certainly was never intended by the decree. Otherwise some other title, some other position would have originated than Reich Commissioner. The position of Conti and Generaloberstabarzt Handloser were exactly the same to me. There was no talk about that whatsoever.
Q Did Hitler ever show his appreciation of your good work by gifts of money?
AAt one time I received money from the Fuehrer.
Q When?
A Perhaps was in the year of 1943, or perhaps 1942. But, I do think it was 1943, but it may have been 1944. But, I think it is more perhaps 1944 than in 1942.
Q How much money were you given?
AAt that time I received money amounting to 50,000 marks. And, about 30,000 remained for myself because of certain expenditures I had at that time
Q Did you have to pay any income tax on this money?
A No. I did not have to pay income tax.
Q For what reason was the money given to you?
A My pay as escort physician I have since the year 1934 was very scarce. I received a monthly additional salary - I don't know how it was designated - of 350 marks per month. Then I received my fees from the clinic, that is, what I earned through my activities there. This sum was increased to 750 marks during the War. My personal expenditures, because of the decrease of my income which came about after the beginning of the War, were in a different relationship. At that time I got into debt and the Fuehrer knew about it. Consequently, I received this sum of money.
Q Did you say that you received 750 marks a year as General Commissioner?
A I never mentioned the amount 750 marks with Reich Commissioner. You asked me for what reason I received this sum and I said that at first as escort physician I received 350 marks and that this sum at the beginning of the War was increased to 750 marks. When I became Commissioner General this sum dropped out and I received, I think, 1200 marks, that is monthly and not yearly.
Q Now, Herr Brandt, you have already mentioned that you were a member of the Presidential Council of the Reich Research Council?
AA member of the Presidil Council of the Reich Research Council.
Q What year did you become a member, 1942?
A I became a member in the year 1942. That's right.
Q And Goering was the President of the Reich Research Council, was he not?
A Goering was president. Yes.
Q There were twenty-one members of the Presidial Council, were there not?
A I wouldn't know that. I didn't count them. I only know about it from the documents that are available here and it shows that there were twenty-one if they were all listed.
Q Conti was a member, was he not?
A Yes, Conti was a member of that Presidial Council. Yes.
Q Bormann?
A I don't know who the individual members were. There is a list available among your documents where they are all listed. I don't know who exactly compiled that list. In the Presidial Council of that Reich Research Council, that is to say, a meeting of that Council never took place and I never learned that any such meeting came about. It was in the autumn of 194* subsequent to the decree giving the Reich Research Council to Goering, there was an introductory meeting of the Reich Research Council in its entirety where about 150 to 250 persons attended. That took place in the Ministry of Aviation. At that time no differentiation was made whether anyone was a Presidial Council member or Plenipotentiary and I cannot say who the individual members were.
Q. Herr. Brandt, the document which you have reference to was objected to and consequently it is not in the record; so, therefore, I am having to you a few questions about the Reich Research Council and the members thereof. If you do not know, then simply say so, very shortly, and we will proceed. Was Himmler a member of the Presidial Council?
A. I do not know that.
Q. Keitel?
A. I cannot say. I could only say on the basis of the list which I saw here and which I do not know whether it is correct.
Q. Well, you remember Menzel?
A. Menzel, yes.
Q. And you remember Osenberg?
A. Osenberg, yes.
Q. So we have 6, counting Menzel and Osenberg. They are all doctors, aren't they?
A. Osenberg was certainly not a physician and Menzel was not a physician either.
Q. So only 2 doctors on the Presidial Council, as far as you know.
A. As far as I know, there were only 2 physicians there. I do not know that Osenberg or Menzel were in that Presidial Council. I was in a camp together with Osenberg and I was of the opinion that he was there on the basis of his activity in the planning Office within the Reich Research Council, but, of course, I may be wrong.
Q. Did you know that the Defendant Sievers was deputy to Menzel in his capacity as the manager of ...
A. I did not know that at the time.
Q. You know that the operating section of the Reich Research Council was divided into scientific departments and fields of plenipotentiaries, don't you?
A. There were certain heads of expert departments and certain plenipotentiaries.
Q. And in these expert or scientific departments they were concerned with a great number of things other than medical research, weren't they?
For example, they had a department on physics, chemistry, mathematics, metals, engineering, agriculture, forestry, and geo-physics, did they not?
A. I have seen a list here and because of that list I saw the numerous kinds of departments which existed within the entire organization of the Reich Research Council.
Q. Now you remember the name Sauerbruch, don't you? You know who he was?
A. Yes, I know that.
Q. Wasn't he head of the scientific department for medicine of the Reich Research Council?
A. He was the head of the scientific department and I think the name "classical medicine".
Q. And in the field of plenipotentiaries you had Schreiber as plenipotentiary for epidemics. I think you have already stated that, haven't you?
A. Yes, plenipotentiary for the combatting of epidemics I think it was.
Q. And Blome for cancer?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you know a man named Jotten?
A. Jotten - Jotten, yes.
Q. He was plenipotentiary for lung diseases, wasn't he?
A. Yes, the so-called lung dust disease.
Q. Do you recall any other heads of scientific departments or plenipotentiaries concerning medicine?
A. No.
Q. Now, doctor, I put it to you that there were only two members of the Presidial Council of the Reich Research Council who were doctors and there were only four members of scientific departments or fields of plenipotentiaries who were doctors. I ask you, weren't each of you gentlemen familiar with the work that the other one was doing?
A. I don't think so.
Q. Didn't you ever consult with Sauerbruch, Blome, Schreiber, or any of them?
A. As far as I remember I did not speak to Sauerbruch about any questions with reference to the Reich Research Council. I occasionally met Sauerbruch but that was mostly in connection with completely different question merely of a consultative nature. Neither did I speak to Blome about questions of cancer research as far as I recollect. And I certainly never spoke to Schreiber about the combatting of epidemics. At the beginning of tho war I occasionally saw Schreiber; After 1942 or 1943 I hardly saw him after that. As far as I recollect, I saw Mr. Jotten only once and that was at a period of ti e when the Institute for the combatting of lung-dust disease had not yet existed.
Q. Did Menzel ever consult with you?
A. I talked to Menzel regarding general academic questions. Menzel was not only the business manager and president of the Reich Research Council but his important task was tho leadership of tho Department science within the Ministry of Education and this department contained the Sub-department Medicine I spoke to him with reference to this Sub-department Medicine within tho Ministry of Education but as far as I know I never discussed any research tasks with him.
Q. Did you know anything about or have any connection with tho assignment issued by the Reich Research Council to Rascher to conduct dry freezing experiments?
A. I did not knew that. I learned about these experiments here for the first time.
Q. Did you know anything about or have any connection with the assignment issued by the Reich Research Council to Hirt of Strasbourg to conduct gas experiments?
A. I did not participate in this assignment and I did not know about it. I heard about Hirt's activity and the work itself because of the final report which Dr. Sievers brought to me in March of 1944.
But even at that time I did not know that this assignment and this work were done in connection with the Reich Research Council, or were initiated by the Reich Research Council.
Q. Did you know anything about the support of the Reich Research Council and the Luftwaffe of Haagen's typhus, yellow fever and jaundice research?
A. No. I only learned about these experiments here, on the basis of documentary evidence.
Q. Were you or Rostock or any one in your office connected in any way with the research conducted by Rascher, Hirt, and Haagen, or any one of them?
A. I don't know abut that.
Q. Did you know that concentration camp inmates were being systematically used in Germany for medical experimentation?
A. No, I did not know that.
Q. Did you never hear anything about such experiments other than the occasion, which I think you have already admitted, in connection with Gebhardt' experiments?
A. It is very difficult now to say, now that there is so much talk about experiments going on, that one had no knowledge at that time. However, I was now informed about these experiments. Regarding the experiments of Hirt, for instance, I was at Hirt's place at the end of April 1944, and I did not gain the impression that we were concerned with experiments on some concentration camp inmates carried through in camps.
Q. Herr Brandt, one cf the important issues here is the extent of your knowledge about medical experimentation on concentration camp inmates and I want you to be very frank with us and tell us everything you know about that subject other than those few instances you have already mentioned. Do you limit yourself to the experiments specifically particularized in the indictment. I am interested in knowing the full extent of your knowledge about the use of concentration camp inmates for experimental purposes.
A. Any knowledge, which went beyond the frame of what has been placed in the Indictment against me, is not known to me. The entire material comprises a number of experiments and there experiments were not known to me. Two days ago, I defined my attitude towards the individual experiments. Beyond that, nothing became known to me about any experiments and, apart from that, I know nothing about these experiments, how they were carried out, either numerically or to what extent they were carried through.
Q. Herr Brandt, is it true that Hitler had ordered that criminal might be used for medical experiments?
A. I assume that such an order was issued by him. Himmler, on his own initiative, would not have done that without being covered by Hitler. During a previous interrogation, I stated that, according to my opinion, it happened subsequent to the threat operation which he experienced in 1935, when he said that generally it would be correct to use criminals in order to clear medical problems with their aid. He did not repeat that in any precise or basic case, but it was his conception that it was correct. That is why I have the opinion, above all, after getting to know all of the evidence here, that Himmler was only carrying them through after being governed by Hitler after he saw to it that he was covered.
Q. Do you know, as a matter of your knowledge, that Hitler ever issued such an order?
A. I never learned the fact that he issued such an order; this is merely a conclusion and retrospectively speaking, which I assume is correct.
Q. Did you ever hear Hitler discuss such a matter?
A. No, I never heard him discuss it, except in general statement about such a matter.
Q. Well, what were his general statements?
A. What I said before. According to my opinion, took place in 1935 when he discussed the question of experiments on human beings as such.