DR. NELTE: Mr. President, I should like to submit to the Tribunal Document HA 50, which is in my 3rd document cook and therefore is not yet available. This is a copy from the War Medical Decree, pages 4 to 6, and deals with the problems of which Professor Handloser has just spoken. I may submit this document now, s Exhibit 6a. Document Book 3 will be handed in tomorrow.
Q. Aside from the medical units or medical agencies, were there also institutes under you or your agencies as Army medical Inspector or Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service?
A. Yes, there were such institutes; there Were 7 of them. I should like to distinguish between the 4 which existed during peace time, that is, the Military medical academy, the medical draining Section in Berlin and the Main medical Camp in Berlin, -- 3 then. During the wan there were added the Typhus Research Institute in Krakow an Lemburg, the Surgical Special Hospital in Brussels, the Central archives for War Medicine in Berlin, and the Army Mount Medical School in St. Johann. these institutes were directly under the Army medical inspector.
Q. Will you please describe the official relationship which you, as Army Medical Inspector, had with these institutes?
A. They were military organization headed by a commanding officer. That is to say, primarily the commanding officer is responsible for what happens in his military institute; he again is under and is thereby responsible to the Army Medical Inspector, who, of course, since the Institute is directly subordinate be him, on the whole bears the responsibility for it. That was the case with the Academy and that was the case with the other institutes. But I consider it necessary to give an example of what these institutes wore like. I shall take the Military radical Academy and say briefly what it was and what the supervision within the Academy was.
The Military Medical Academy, which we shall mention frequently, is an organization dating from 1795.- Its name at that the was the Friedrich Wilhelm Institute, because the Wing, Friedrich Wilhelm II, had founded it. After 100 years of existence, in 1895, it changed its name to Kaiser Wilhelm Academy and when it was re-established after the first World War, it was given the name Military Medical Academy It had always had 2 tasks, in the first place to give the new recruits for the career of medical officer, additional training and in addition, in its own scientific institutes, to help the students; and on the other hand, to carry on such research as was directly compacted wit military medicine.
At the head of the academy there was always an especially proved commanding officer. The picture of the academy in the lover fields was that under this commanding officer there were 3 training groups, headed again by a Generalarzt or an Oberstarzt. In 2 of those groups there were the students in Group A, those before the physikum the first medical examination, and in Group B, those in their clinical semesters. The third group, Training Croup C, was the scientific group with the scientific institutes. The last director was Generalarzt Schreiber, who has frequently been mentioned.
In these institutes, military medical research was carried on. The medical officers in those training groups, I am thinking, for example, of Stabsarzt Dohmen, who has also been mentioned frequently, Were primarily under the commanding officer of the training group and he in turn was under the commanding officer of the academy and the commanding officer of the academy was under the Army medical Inspector. The organization in other institutes was built up on the same principle; whether it was St. Johann or the Central Archives, it was all the same; only the hospital in Brussels was different, which was purely a hospital and to which was attached a special scientific research department.
Q. You were Army Physician (Heeresarzt) and Army Medical Inspector and until you became Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service your functions were separate. What was the reason for joining the functions of Army Physician and Army medical Inspector? I will, in a moment, point out what is important for my case so that the prosecution does not think that I am bringing the Army Physician into the case unnecessarily. Army Physician and Medical Inspector were two functions which up until then and required all the services of on many a high military doctor.
They were united and a sphere of work was created from which I must assume, without explanation, that it was too much for one person and would perhaps not give you the opportunity to do justice to the responsibility which you had in this high position. Will you please explain this and tell us how it was possible to fill these 2 positions and later 3 positions responsibly?
A. In 1939 I was in Poland. In 1940 I was in France. I was an Armee Arzt (Army Physician). Thus from two sectors, From two theaters of war, I was able to form a judgment about the management of the medical service and of course I also talked to there comrades about it. I was in the first World War, too, and I was able to see that our Supreme Medical Commander, that was von Gernin, as full Medical Chief and Generalstabsarzt of the Army, was in the field, at headquarters, and not at home. He arranged it at that time so that he was in charge of matters in the field himself and that at home he had a representative, who was a Generalarzt, but he himself was in charge of the direction cf all matter at home and in the field. In the recent World War the Army Medical Inspector, Walmann, was in Berlin, and a Heeresarzt was appointed for the Field Army. That was certainly not due to the desire of the Any Medical Inspectorate and my processor. That was connected with the military organization and with the point of view that in the field one cannot have any ministerial people with ministerial habits. My predecessor, Professor Waldmann, during the campaign in Poland and during the campaign in France, he was not in Berlin wither; but he had the feeling, just as everyone else did, that the primary thing and the emphasis, -- the first concern -was with the troops in the field.
If they were not cared for properly if things did not run right at the front, then no amount of work at home did any good. My army in Poland, as well as my army in France, in spite of the brief duration of the campaigns, he visited my armies repeatedly.
Now when I became his successor, I was immediately confronted with the question in Berlin, if there is a change now and it was known that Generalstabsarzt Ott in the very near future would give up his position, it was said, "Now or Never." This obvious mistake in organization must be done away with and therefore from my own experience, as well as on the basis of the fact that from the first World war and from the preceding campaigns in 1939 and 1940, came that decision that Generaloberst From, who was Commander of the Reserve Army and the Commander in Chief of the army Von Brauchitsch, that I should suggest to them that the two organizations should be united. First, this was to be a simplification, secondly, time was to be saved and third, every possibility for friction, which of course existed between the field armies and the home army, was to be removed.
Q Then, in your opinion and in the opinion of the army medical officers, you presented the necessity. What is important here, however, is that you say how you created the safeguards, the order to safeguard the responsibility of such a high officer as the Army Medical Inspector. Please clarify your responsibility.
A The extent of the duty alone, from the point of view of area alone, had become so great as the war expanded that no one in charge, even the Heeresarzt could he everywhere. The Army Medical Inspector at home could not do that, everything had to be guilt upon the basis of the decentralization and on the selection of the best people as supports for the execution of the duties on the principle that the best men should be put in the best places. This was done at home by the selection of the Wehrkreis physicians and by the promotion and support of t heir authority and that was done in the field by the selection of army physicians.
When the area became substantially and the difficulty be came substantially greater, the military agencies, on their own initiative, since they were in the same position, created a new agency between the high command of the army and the various armies - the so-called army group commands, since it could not at first be achieved that army group physicians should be assigned to those army group commands.
Conditions later showed the High Command of the Army that this had to be done later and so at the end of 1941 or the beginning of 1942, army group physicians, with the rank of Generalarzt or Generalstabsarzt were created, who were above the physicians of the various armies as connection link to the Heeresarzt and the Army Medical Inspectors. That is a typical example of the fact that the expanded duties and. the expanded area required a new safeguard for the execution of control and supervision and advise.
I should only like to add to clarify the matter, that the Wehrkreis physicians at home, I believe with one or two exceptions, and there were nineteen of them, that they were all even older than I and that a considerable proportion of them had formerly boon my superiors as Wehrkreis physicians or as army group physicians in peace time and that in the field, they were of the same are as I with very few exceptions. They were men with the rank of o Generalarzt or Generalstabserzt, who had reached this rank only on the basis of long experience special achievement. These were not men whom one had to watch or control. These were men who guarantee that they would do their utmost and their best and that they had the necessary experience and the necessary ability.
Q In connection with this policy of putting the best men in the most difficult posts, there had to be added, I should like to say, the legislative activities; you had to issue instructions, directives, orders, etc.; was that organized in that way?
A Do you mean these Army Camp Physicians?
Q All physicians from your point of view?
A Yes, of course that was alone.
Q This is what I should like to learn; were numerous instructions, directives and orders issued by you?
A Yes, of course.
Q I mention this because unfortunately we have no documents in the Prosecution's Document books bearing your signature. If such orders had not corresponded to the rules demanded of an orderly command, I am convinced that we would have seen them hero. I should also like to ask you if you know of any significant, or were there any significant violations reported to you in connection with inadmissability, or the execution of the military medical point of view or the ethical point of view?
A No.
Q I am not merely speaking of the front, the doctors at the front; I am speaking of at home too?
A Yes.
DR. NELTE: Mr. President, now I want to come to the question of the consulting specialists, on the functions of these consulting specialists, but Generalartz Gutzeit has testified about this as a witness, so I believe I can dispense with this matter; but in this connection I should like to present two documents to t ho Tribunal. In the first place an excerpt from the war Medical Decree, No. 222, 226, and 235. This deals with the group consulting physicians in the Army.
THE PRESIDENT: In what Document Book are these documents contained.
DR. NELTE: You will find, these documents in Book No. 1, Page 36. It is document HA 19, and will be Exhibit No. 7, if the Tribunal accepts this document as an exhibit.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it counsel's intention to read the document into the record or simply have it offered in evidence?
DR. NELTE: I merely want to submit it. In the examination of the witness Gutzeit the contents were already presented. It is only the legal regulation of the position which the consulting physicians had.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
DR. NELTE: And the next document on the same point I submit a statement of the defendant Professor Handloser on the establishment of the consulting physicians. I shall not read this either. I only offer it as an exhibit.
It is in the Document Book No. 1, Pa e 32. It is document HA 18. I ask that you accept this statement of the defendant as Exhibit No. 8.
THE PRESIDENT: In the Document Book I do not find Document HA 18 listed in the index. It is in the Cock, but not indexed.
DR. NELTE: The section which produced these documents left this document out, but only in the index. In the document book itself, on Pare 32, you will fin. the document.
THE PRESIDENT: It is in the Document Book. I have it. I was calling attention to the fact it was omitted from the index.
There being no objections the documents will be admitted.
The Tribunal will now recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 12 February 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 1. Military Tribunal 1 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain that the defendants are all present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all defendants are present with the exception of the defendant Oberheuser who is absent due to a continuation of her previously existing illness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court with the exception of the defendant Oberheuser who is absent on account of illness as per her physician's certificate.
The Tribunal has considered the application presented yesterday by defense counsel Sauter for a demonstration before the court in connection with the high altitude experiments. The Tribunal has considered the application and the application is denied.
Counsel may proceed with the examination.
SIEGFRIED HANDLOSER - Resumed EXAMINATION (continued) BY DR. NELTE:
Q. Professor, you said yesterday that the Medical Service of the Army, whose chief medical officer you were, had to care for the health of about ten million members of the armed forces. To clarify this Question I should like to ask you: Does this mean only soldiers for whose health you had to care?
A. No, not only soldiers. Of these approximately ten million there were included all the members of the families of the soldiers at home. The military doctors since 1922 had to care for the families of the soldiers as well as the soldiers themselves.
There were also all those persons connected with the Wehrmacht including all the nurses, all the Signal Corps assistants, all staff assistants. Also the population of the occupied territories until the civilian medical authorities were able to take over their care and supervision; also the prisoners of war in the operational area as well as at home.
Q. How many medical officers, active and reserve, belonged to the medical service of the army?
A. I can give exact information about that since I still have records, documents, of the 1st of February 1943. At that time the Army had 2,191 active medical officers, including the reactivated formerly active officers who were 3,242. That makes a total of 5,433. Then there were reserve medical officers, 19,580; together, 25,013. On the 1st of February 1943, and in the following period too, we had the senior medical students as so-called Feldunteraerzte; that is, assistant doctors in hospitals and with the troops. Those were 1,638 at that time. That makes a total of medical officers at home and in the field of 36,651. At this time the Luftwaffe had about 10,000 physicians and dentists. The Waffen SS at the front had about 3,,000 medical officers. That makes a total of 39,651. Unfortunately I do not have any figures from the navy.
This may be a good opportunity to mention an official figure which I have that is the last official report of the OKW including the time from the beginning of the campaign on Russia in 1941 until 31 January 1945. After this time it was no longer possible to compile reports, at least we did not get any reports. The number of dead at that time was 2,100,000. The number of wounded during the campaign in Russia was approximately 5,000,000. The number of prisoners taken during the period of fighting was 2,500,000. This may also be the appropriate opportunity to mention the casualties among the medical officers. I have official figures here too giving insight into the months of June to December 1943. At the front we had 6,048 doctors. In these six months 791 of them fell; that is, about 12.5 percent. 1,533 were wounded; that is, 25 percent. From the year 1943 as Army Medical Inspector I should like to mention that with the disaster of Stalingrad we lost 274 doctors at once.
With the disaster of Tunis we lost about 250 medical officers. I mention this because it was my duty as Medical Inspector to cover these losses, to fill these gaps, and this was an especially difficult and expensive field of work for me.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment, counsel. I neglected to remind the witness that he is still under oath, having been sworn yesterday.
Counsel may proceed
Q As chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service you were the highest medical officer in the Wehrmacht. The prosecution has conclude from this position an organizational responsibility for the actions, the alleged actions of any medical officers.
I should, like to ask you, were you as chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service responsible for the actions of all medical officers of the Wehrmacht?
A I must answer this question in was general form with no. I was responsible for the individual medical officer, for what he did on specific orders from me, or what he did as the result of general orders which I had given, nothing else.
Q Now, it is possible that without such an order or such general orders a medical officer under your command in execution of his profession might commit a punishable action. Must you be responsible for it?
A If I learn officially or in any ether way of this punishable action and if I did not clear up the situation, and if necessary, take steps against it, then certainly a charge could be made against me.
A Now, I should like to exhaust all possibilities in connection with your responsibility. What about the charge of inadequate supervision in this connection?
A Yesterday I attempted to explain the relationship and the powers of a superior and this includes the factor of supervision, but it was not understood and it cannot be understood to mean that a high or supreme superior who is responsible far all theaters of war and for the homeland, that he can exercise supervision over every individual subordinate That is impossible and. that is not possible anywhere in the world in military or civilian life, and it cannot be demanded.
My supervision, for example, as Army Medical Inspector applied to the army group physicians, to the Wehrkreis physicians, and to the commanding officers cf the institutes and organizations directly under my command.
I will mention an example. A medical officer with the troops or in a hospital, just like a soldier in the company or battalion, is under the Curt No. 1 supervision of his immediate superior; that is, the chief physician in a hospital and above him the commanding officer of the medical section, and then the Wehrkreis physician, but that goes very far.
Another example; stabsarzt Delmen, who has been mentioned repeatedly, was one of the 26,500 medical officers under my command. The commending officer of the training group C is responsible for supervising him and in addition, the commanding officer of the Military Medical Academy. What I said quite generally, of course, applies. If in any way I had learned of anything about an individual medical officer who was far away from me it would have been my duty without consideration of the many superiors between us to take up the case to see that it was cleared up and to take the necessary steps.
Q How, I come to another chapter of my examination. As you know, the individual charges which are raised against you concern experiments connected with research. The prosecution alleges that you were not directly connected, but that, because of your position as Army Medical Inspector and chief of the Wehrmacht medical Service you were connected with the experiments which are called illegal, and that you have special responsibility. Does the field medical research belong to the medical matters?
A Yes, research is connected with any health service.
Q Is there a special military medical science?
A Yes, there is. It is called military medicine, or we use the expression, "wehrmedizin", for it. If I am to explain that briefly, explain it to this group, I must make a comparison. Imagine a big strong tree with widespread roots, with a strong trunk, and with many branches and twigs. The roots and the trunk which give strength and which give life to the whole tree, that is general medicine. And the branches and the twigs arc the many individual fields which arc larger or smaller, which are the specialties. One such branch is military medicine, under medicine in general. This branch is an indispensable and integral part of medicine as a whole. It has a certain life of its own which, however, is (dependent on the strength and the influence which it gets from the roots and the trunk, and it will never have the idea of disassociating itself from this trunk because that would take away the source of its life.
This branch again has branches and leaves and fruit, and in the life of this tree it gives the whole tree a great deal of nourishment. That is how one must understand military medicine as an integral cart of the whole thing which grows out of general medicine and receives an enormous amount from it, but by way of gratitude in a sense and as a natural consequence gives it a number of suggestions and experiences which only military medicine can collect.
Military medicine is determined I by the character of military life and the military sphere. I must sum that up briefly. I can give only a few examples by way of explanation. We have definite military diseases, if I may mention a few surgical ones. There are the well known diseases of the feet which soldiers acquire when marching. The feet swells. Often there is a fracture which is hard to recognize, of a metatarsal bone. In all countries special attention was devoted to this disease. It has always been said the main weapon of the infantryman is not his gun; it is his feet. And the great majority of the German soldiers in the second World War wore not driven but were dependent on their feet.
May I bring an example from internal medicine? We speak of the dangers of the special surroundings of the mass accommodations of soldiers which formerly had existed only in the army. This, of course, brings the dangers of the transfer of diseases to a much greater extent than in civilian life. For the scientific senate I worked on epidemic meningitis. At all times we had cases of this frequently fatal disease. I went through all the literature on the subject, and I saw that in many countries military medicine was especially interested in it.
The English in India in their barracks often had actual epidemics of meningitis. They found that the bacteria which caused this disease exist everywhere and that thirty -- forty -- fifty percent of the people in their nasal passages have these bacteria. Only under special circumstances in cases of colds, special physical efforts such as marching do to lose bacteria suddenly get the upper hand, as it were, become dangerous, and apparently healthy soldiers fall do and if they are unlucky they are dead in twenty-four or forty-eight tours.
That was the beginning of a long series of experiments which finally led to various measures with with the military doctor is familiar which are still in use today, the most simple one to keep the people separated so that daring sleep the breath does not affect their neighbor.
Q. Professor, may I interrupt you. You have already given two examples of typical military medicine. I believe that a picture has been given to the Tribunal of what it is about. What I am interested in hero in connection with the trial is this: was military medicine a typically German, I might say, militaristic phenomena, or did this military medicine exist everywhere?
A. There was military medicine in all countries wherever there was an army. I personally had the impression because in 1936 after the first World War a German medical delegation consisting of one medical officer of the army, the navy and the Luftwaffe was under my direction which was invited to the International Congress in Brussels.
Q. as that only a Congress or was it a society, a permanent society?
A. The basis for it was a permanent organization, an international organization which included about fifty countries which had a permanent office in Hers taal near Brussels under the direction of the Belgiums.
Q. I think it was at Liege?
A. Yes, at Liege. Every two years those military doctors had a meeting. I attended the meeting in Bucharest. Germany had become a member again after the first World War although I was still a guest at Brussels, and the last Congress in 1939 was in Washington. At those meetings or Congress questions were discussed which were important for military medicine in peace time and also in respect to a possible war, and I believe that the countries concerned brought one or two military doctors who made a speech agreed upon beforehand at his Congress.
Q. Then if I have understood you correctly, at these planned meeting of military doctors of the whole world questions were discussed and the dangers were discussed which threatened soldiers in peace and in war?
A. Yes, that is so.
Q. Was that the same thing that was the purpose of the meetings which the Prosecution has here called meetings of conspirators, the meetings of the consulting specialists of the Wehrmacht?
A. The purpose and the affect of these Congresses wore exactly the same as in our meetings. After those meetings, too, a printed report of the meeting was published which was sent to the participants and to the highest medical agencies in the countries concerned.
Then the medical inspectors of these countries and their economic advisers selected those speeches which were of special importance and brought something new, and in each country they were made known to the public, the same thing that we did in a somewhat different form after our meetings.
Q. In those reports which the most famous military doctors of the world made at these meetings in reporting the results of their research, could one always judge how they reached these conclusions?
A. that was possible in many cases and in other cases not.
Q. Now lot us go into your case concretely. What fields of medical research foll under your control as Army Medical Inspector?
A. We will roach our aim most quickly if I mention a few examples. Let us take dysentery, for example, I mentioned this example in my affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, the Tribunal has listened to the witness for some time on general statements of the military profession which the members of the Tribunal understand, and I think it is about time that more concrete questions are asked and answered. UI understood that counsel was about to ask pointed questions concerning the questions now before the Tribunal, out the Tribunal would not be interested in discussions of questions which arc foreign to the matters which arc now before the Tribunal for consideration.
DR. NELTE: Mr. President, I have asked, What fields of medical research came under your control as Army Medical Inspector?" Does not the Tribunal believe that this is a concrete question?
JUDGE SEBRING: Doctor Nelte, perhaps. I can clarify for you what the Tribbunal is interested in, which encompasses not only the question you have asked but the entire field of inquiry that the Tribunal would like to know something about and I am going to ask a few questions, to the witness, if I may, and I think perhaps you will see "then the type of information we would like to have from this witness, if he can give it.
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q Doctor Handloser, during the course of your presence on the witness stand, you have exhibited a tremendous knowledge of the manner in which the various medical activities of the German Government were organized, and the manner in which they operated during the recent war, and I should like to put this question to you: You have heard the testimony of the Prosecution witnesses, and doubtless have read the documents submitted by the Prosecution, Now, let us assume that such evidence produced by the Prosecution is sufficient to prove that the medical experiments were, in fact, carried out in concentration camps upon non-German nationals without their consent, and that such experimental subjects were killed as a result of such experiments. Let us assume further, for the purpose of pointing up the question, that the evidence submitted by the Prosecution is sufficient to prove that the experiment were conducted by and for the benefit of the Waffen-SS. Now then, in your opinion, gained from your intimate knowledge of the frame work of the German Government under Hitler, what officials or agencies in the German Government; would have been responsible for the deaths resulting to non-German nationals from such experiments?
A That would have been those who had ordered the experiments. I must assume that they were illegal criminal experiments.
Q I am assuming that for the sake of this question. That is a matter ultimately the Tribunal must decide, but for the sake of getting your views let us assume that fact.
A If it had become known to the responsible agencies, that they were criminal, then the agency which had official supervision would have been obligated to interfere. That would have been for the concentration camps. As far as I know, the Reichsfuehrer Himmler, Reichs Physician Grawitz, since the were medical experiments, that would be the actual circle in this sector.
To what extent the Reich Health Leader Conti had anything to do with it or would have had anything to do with it, I cannot judge. He would be effected if such measures had been originated by him or he would have been in a position, as Chief Health Leader of the civilian sector; if he had learned of them he should have brought them up with his Ministers, the Reich Ministry of the Interior or the Reichsfuehrer of the SS.
Q What would be your answer if we may assume that the evidence of the Prosecution shows that these medical experiments were performed in a criminal manner and were conducted for the benefit of the German Navy?
A Then, the question would have been to what extent the Navy had participated in this matter. You said, your Honor, that I had an extensive knowledge of the organization of the medical system, and I notice that the Indict ment, in speaking of these experiments, frequently says "in the interest of the Wehrmacht"? that is, of course, a very vague term, it is not concrete.
Q That is precisely the reason that I am asking you these questions and particularizing. The question now is what would be your answer if the experiments were conducted by and for the German Navy?
A If you say by the Navy, then the Navy must have participated;then the Navy must have known about it? then the Navy ordered it or approved it for certain reasons? that it thereby is made responsible would be beyond doubt.
Q What would be your answer if we assume that the Prosecution's evidene shows that such experiments were conducted by and for the benefit of the German Air Force?
A If they were carried out by the Air Force, then, in my opinion, it will again be true here that the Luftwaffe, the Air Force, is responsible for it, but with the limitation that the execution of the experiments proceeded in the way in which the Air Force intended.
Q Let us assume that the evidence shows that although such experiments were not conducted by the Air Force, that they were conducted for the benefit of the German Air Force, and that the German Air Force accepted the results of the experiments for the benefit of the medical problems in the German Air Forces what would be your answer?
A If the Air Force learned about it after the experiments were complete and saw that they had been conducted in a form which it did not approve, it would probably have drawn the conclusion for the future, that it would have to proceed much more carefully than in the first case. The second question whether the Air Force had instigated anything is, in my opinion, a theoretic question.
Q What would be your answer if we assume that the evidence shows that experiments were conducted by and for the benefit of the German Army?
A. If that had been carried out by the German army, as you say for the Germany army, then I assume that there was a clear order from the army, and the one who issued this order cannot escape the responsibility to the extent that the experiment was conducted in the way in which he ordered it. Of course, the question is important here about the experimental subjects. If I recall correctly, you spoke of foreigners.
Q. In posing my question we have assumed, for the sake of the question, that these people are non-German nationals, incarcerated in concentration camps, German concentration camps, and that they were experimented upon without their consent. We assume those three premises for the sake of the question.
A. As far as the question of volunteers is concerned, one would have to say that as far as the experiment was to a certain degree dangerous, that the it is a prerequisite that the experimental subjects be volunteers. And I can not imagine that in the Wehrmacht, according to the customs which prevailed in Germany, the idea would have cone up to use foreigners for these experiments. There must have been social circumstances which I cannot judge.
Q. Then it is your opinion that it would have been impossible for medical experiments to have been carried out upon involuntary subjects in concentration camps who were non-German nationals whereby hundreds of deaths occurr without that fact becoming either actually or officially known to the high officials in the respective branch of the service under whose auspices the experiments were conducted. Is that correct?
A. I understood you to say, your honor, that the supreme authorities had ordered them in the interest of the branch of the Wehrmacht concerned. The knowledge of the experiment itself and the place where it was carried out would result from that fact alone.
Q. Let us assume, then, that the head of the - well, the head of the German army could have directly ordered such human experiments to have been conducted at Dachau, let us say. And, that in order to carry op those expert ments it was necessary to have the human material sent from Natzweiler, and that it was also necessary to have the apparatus and equipment with which the experiments were conducted sent from some other part of Germany, necessitating a considerable amount of detail in assembling in that one spot the persons who were going to conduct the experiments, the human subjects upon whom the experiments were going to be conducted, and the material with which the experiments were going to be conducted.