Why did you leave the words "he was your medical superior", after all you are a man of intelligence?
A There were so many corrections and I made a mistake there. I have left at least ten which according to our concepts were not correct either.
Q But, General, didn't you draw this chart for us in your own handwriting?
A That is the diagram.
Q Doesn't that show Karl Brandt up at the top over you? Was that a mistake too?
A I have also tried to explain that.
Q I heard your explanation, General, but there again it didn't satisfy me. Why did you put Karl Brandt up at the top, unless he was in fact your superior in technical matters. What did you put him on the chart at all for?
A Because it cannot be claimed and because I wanted to avoid stating that I had not had any contact at all with Professor Brandt because after all the contacts are stated in the Fuehrer Decree and I did not want to place him next to me or beside me. That is purely technical question.
Q. General, wasn't Professor Brandt your superior with respect to all duties outlined in the First Fuehrer Decree?
A. In the First Decree, as far as I know, it is stated....
Q. General, we know what the Decree states. I am asking you to draw a conclusion. Isn't it true, with respect to your functions outlined in this First Fuehrer Decree, that Karl Brandt was your superior?
A. I have always refuted this concept.
Q. Well, if he wasn't your superior, exactly what relationship did he have to you?
A. I turned to him whenever I believed that I should report some special incident within the medical fields to him and that I should bring it to his knowledge because I assumed that this would somehow reach the ears of the Fuehrer. That would be more appropriate if he were to be informed by a specialists in that field, or if it were to be explained to him by specialists in that field because if they were to be reported by laymen the whole thing may have been distorted. And, whenever we were in an emergency position with regard to transportation for our wounded I turned to him and asked him if possible to help in some way, for example, by furnishing us a squadron of aircraft which the Fuehrer Headquarters had at its special disposal.
Q. Isn't the utilization of material and personnel a common problem of all branches of the Wehrmacht?
A. Yes.
Q. Therefore, it is true that this matter fell within your jurisdiction?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was as of the date 28 July 1942?
A. Yes.
Q. Very good. Now, General, will you tell us who in Germany was better informed than you were on military medical science and research in general?
A. About military medical science?
Q. And research.
A. In my field? Well, there was quite a number of specialists.
Q. Just a minute, general, I know there are probably a lot of people who had more information about typhus, and others had more information about epidemic jaundice, and other people who had more information about yellow fever. But, I ask you who in Germany was better informed than you were on the general picture of military medical science and research?
A. If you speak about general matters in the field of military medical science as far as the Wehrmacht was concerned, then I believe that I am quite well informed. However, I must except the special branches of research and the medical matters of the Luftwaffe and the Navy of which, to state briefly, I do not have the slightest idea.
Q. I understand perhaps you are not as well informed as others on the research problems which pertain exclusively to the Luftwaffe or to the Navy. Now, you speak of calling together the medical chiefs of the Wehrmacht branch in an effort to avoid duplication of research. When did you do that?
A. I did that in the field of malaria and I did it with regard to the innoculation as far as this refers to typhus, para-typhus, and cholera. I have further directed coordination of the Scientific Senate conference which dealt with general vaccination against dysentery. Aside of that I cannot name any other precise case in that connection.
Q. Can you give us the dates on which you called the medical chiefs together?
A. They were not only medical chiefs but also special advisors. With regard to malaria I believe that this was in 1944 because Schroeder had already taken office. Prior to that time malaria and combatting malaria was coordinated without any conference between medical chiefs perhaps was in 1942, of at the beginning of 1943, because the innoculations were carried out in 1943 and 1944.
Q. What about the typhus?
A. That is not a typhus vaccination. When we say typhus then we mean typhus. Then we must state here that what you know as typhus, that is what we call fleckfieber, which means typhus.
Q. I thought I understood, you to state that you called together medical chiefs of the Wehrmacht branches to coordinate vaccination against malaria. You mentioned something else and I thought you meant fleckfieber.
A. I believe that I have said typhus, para-typhus, and cholera.
Q. Meaning typhoid, is that right?
A. I have meant what you describe as typhoid.
Q. General, what was the Scientific Senate of the Medical Services of the Wehrmacht?
A. The Scientific Senate is an institution which was first established in 1895 and whose members at that time were appointed by the Emperor and, subsequently, by the heads of the Government. It had a certain number of regular members and of irregular members and they were the leading scientific personalities in Germany in the medical field, and also a number of older and especially experienced and also specially trained active medical officers and if one of these regular or other members left, then the Army Medical Inspector, who was in charge of the Scientific Senate, a successor was suggested to the head of the State who found that one was appointed a member of the Scientific Senate.
Q. You were President of that body, weren't you?
A. I was the President of the Scientific Senate, just like all my predecessors since 1895.
Q. And did you have that Presidency by virtue of being Army Medical Inspector or Chief of the Medical Services of the Wehrmacht?
A. I had this Presidency in my capacity as Army Medical Inspector and this Scientific Senate remained an establishment of the Army until the end of the war. It was intended to convert it into a Wehrmacht Scientific Senate. However, as a result of the happenings of the War which came about so speedily it was unable to carry that out.
Q. You continued to be President after 7 August 1944, didn't you?
A. The Senate was not called since the year 1942.
Q. That isn't what I asked you. I asked you if it isn't a fact that you continued to be President of the Scientific Senate of the Medical Services of the Wehrmacht after 7 August 1944 as it states in the Service Regulation.
A. No, there is something wrong here in the Service Regulation the Senate of the Wehrmacht Medical Service is already included here. However, it was never established but it remained the Army Scientific Senate and, therefore, before it was reconverted my successor, the Army Medical Inspector, would have continued to be its president.
Q Did you ever make any reports on scientific research to Karl Brandt?
A I cannot remember that has ever been the case.
Q What about after his Office for Science and Research was set up?
A Even than I did not submit any reports to him.
Q Did you request the Medical Services of the Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe to keep Brandt's office informed?
A Certainly some form of correspondence must have existed. From a certain period of time, perhaps February of 1944, I assure that these reports more given about research assignments and that the Office for Science and Research was to be informed.
Q Didn't you also require the Medical Services of the Army, Navy and Luftwaffe to send you copies of these research assignments?
A If these agreements were reached, or how they were reached, I am unable to say. However, it is something which is closely connected. In this case there were not reports concerned, but, first of all, assignments.
Q You have said that aviation medicine could not be coordinated by you in your capacity as Chief of the Medical Services of the Wehrmacht. What about the work of the Luftwaffe hygienists working on a problem like typhus?
A If any question was discussed in the field of typhus, then either a conference was called in which all the hygienists participated, or something was drafted in writing which was sent to the various branches of the Wehrmacht for their comments; and the hygienists would have been competent as specialists in that field. In particular, in the field of typhus, I can remember, with the branches of the Wehrmacht, only the problem of delousing, which plays a very important part in the case of typhus.
I assume that in this field, with the chemical as well as with the physical delousing, a connection and a mutual orientation of the hygienists of the individual branches of the Wehrmacht took place with my hygienists, especially since I had an assistant who was particularly acquainted in this field and who had actually devoted all of his work to this question of chemical delousing, which had assumed some new aspects.
Q Now, you have admitted that on a problem like vaccines you, as Chief of the Medical Services of the Wehrmacht, had the power to establih a uniform practice in the Wehrmacht, for example, as to the types and times of vaccination. Didn't you have to know of the efficacy of these vaccines and their reactions to make a decision like that?
A In the military medical services there was no decision made at any time about a vaccination without first calling several physicians for consultation or without a Scientific Senate taking place. Examples are indicated by the program of the session of the last Scientific Senate, where this question particularly played a special part.
Q Who was the Commander of the Military Medical Academy?
A That was Generalstabsarzt Professor Dr. Hamann.
Q Who invited the various doctors to participate in these meetings of the consulting physicians?
A The man in charge was the person directed to preside over the meeting. Before 1942 it was the Army Medical Inspector, and after that it was the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service. After deciding on the program, he distributed a list of the number of persons participating to the individual branches of the Wehrmacht. With the exception of those people who were requested to issue reports, it was left completely to the branches of the Wehrmacht as to whom they wanted to send.
Therefore, the selection was left to the Army, the Navy, and the Luftwaffe.
Q I take it, then, that you decided on the lectures and the persons who were to give them; is that right?
AA working staff was appointed, and through the years of my activity it was Generalarzt Schroiber who was the man in charge of this working staff. I, on my part, stated the subjects on which I placed special emphasis. And, on the part of the individual chiefs of the branches of the Wehrmacht, all the subjects were suggested on which they placed special emphasis. At the same time, several names were offered who could be considered as people to make the reports.
Q Well now, are you telling us that you just simply suggested the subjects for discussion and those subjects were then passed on to the Army and the Navy and the Waffen SS, and they picked out the doctors who were to give these lectures?
A Yes. Of course, there were also cases when I, for example, stated to the Luftwaffe that I would like to hear a lecture by Professor Toonnes, who was a leading man, or, in some other field, Professor Rose, who gave lectures rather frequently; or, perhaps I may have mentioned some particular person in the Navy. However, the offers usually came from the branches of the Wehrmacht.
Q All right. Now, the Navy, or rather, the Luftwaffe, has decided, since you think you want a talk on malaria, that they will send Professor Rose. What does the Luftwaffe then do about that? Do they send in a short synopsis of what Rose is going to say? Or what do they tell you then?
A They say that Rose is at my disposal, or that Rose cannot be furnished, and then we have to select somebody else.
Q Well, then I assume that the program was finally drawn up by you, or Schreiber as your agent, for these meetings of consulting physicians. That is right, isn't it?
A Yes. In the end, the working staff had a draft which was divided into the individual working groups, the people who were to give the lectures, and the subject of the lectures. Then Schreiber came to see me and he submitted this big draft to me. Then, in general, outside of changes with regard to the time, we did not make any changes in the program which had been composed by the various people who were interested.
Q Well, what I am curious to know is how Doctors Ding, Gebhardt, Fischer, and Holzloehner made reports at these meetings.
A What do you mean by how did they give the reports?
Q How did it happen that they were invited to make those reports?
A That may have been done for different reasons. Either the Waffen SS or the Luftwaffe may have suggested the aviation medical officer Holzloehner to Dr. Ding or, with regard to the problem of cold, which also existed in the Army, perhaps, in the course of a discussion between the working staff, somebody may have raised a question as to whether Holzloehner--who had gained special practical experience in the Antarctic--might not be able to report about his experiences.
I cannot state it exactly because I have not participated in any sessions of the working staff. I was unable to occupy myself with these details. It was only my task to state beforehand what had to be included in the program under all circumstances, and to state at the end whether I approved of this program or not.
Q. Well, General, I am just curious. Now let's take Ding for an example. You have passed along the word that you want typhus discussed in the meeting in May, 1943, and that goes down to the Waffen SS. Genzken over here writes back and says, "Dr. Ding can give you a good talk on typhus." Now doesn't somebody in your office ask, "Now what in the world can Ding tell us about typhus? What has he been doing in typhus research? Who is Ding anyway? What can he tell us about typhus?" Doesn't somebody ask those questions?
A. I was not asked any such questions.
Q. Doesn't your program chairman inquire into the qualifications in the work which a proposed lecturer has done?
A. The working staff contacted the individual branches of the Wehrmacht. They, after all, had to know what man they wanted to furnish for the lecture. They would not call a man who was not an expert in his field, because he had to count on the fact that in the course of the discussion he would, in a certain way, also be crossed examined. And with such a circle of scientific outstanding personalities no man would be furnished of whom it is assumed that he does not possess the required knowledge. Therefore I really cannot tell you just how, in detail, Dr. Ding was suggested by the Waffen SS and how he formulated the program.
Q. Had you ever heard of Dr. Ding as being an expert in typhus?
A. No.
Q. When did you first meet Dr. Ding?
A. I have stated here that Dr. Ding is completely unknown to me, and I have told my interrogator, Mr. Rapp, with regard to this person and to others, that he should not be surprised if it should be discovered sometime that on some occasion or other, for example, with the opening of a session or at the end, such a man has been sitting together with me in one room. However, I do net understand that to be an acquaintance, and I must state on the subject I have heard the name of Ding for the first time when I was in the English zone, in the British zone, after the capitulation, when I saw some article by him in the paper.
I heard of him for the second time when I received a letter to the effect that Schreiber had testified here before the international military Tribunal, according to which Dr. Ding had given a lecture.
Q. Well, just a minute. I think you have given us a sufficient answer to that. I just want to ask you now if you read these reports you published on these meetings of consulting physicians. Do you normally read these?
A. The printed reports?
Q. Yes.
A. I have read them exactly in part, and part of them I did not go ever, just as it is usually done with books of that kind. First of all the chapters are selected which are of special interest or which have the most priority, and everything else is laid aside for a later opportunity, which of course never arises.
Q. I think that is sufficient, General. I just want to ask you now then, I assume that you did not read the summary of the report made by Ding at the meeting of your consulting physicians in May, 1943. You didn't read that?
A. I have read the report by Ding here.
Q. But you didn't read it after it was published sometime in 1943?
A. I cannot remember it, because the report of '43 was probably published six months afterwards. When and if it came into my hands, I cannot say; and I cannot say, either, if I have read it at all.
Q. Your memory was pretty good when you testified a moment ago that the first time you ever heard the name Ding was in the British zone and when you read it in a newspaper. Do you now want to tell us that maybe you did read this Ding report back in 1943?
A. I cannot tell you that. The reports offered came very late, at a late time after the lecture. I have already expressed that because of this reason I made an innovation in 1944 that the most important part, namely, the directors, should be separately printed in the form of a little booklet, that they should be given priority, because it took an extremely long time during the war to have these reports printed, because quite a number of copies were needed, and it had already become very difficult with regard to the printing facilities.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is about to recess. The witness, the Defendant Handloser, being under cross examination, will not be allowed to communicate with any person until his cross examination is finished. The Tribunal will be in recess.
( A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
Q. General, do you want the Tribunal to believe that no one on your staff checked into the qualifications of Dr. Ding as a typhus expert before it was approved that he deliver this lecture at the meeting of the consulting physicians in May, 1934?
A. I cannot make any judgment on that question. The working staff, in general, probably thought that they were tied to the suggestions of the Wehrmacht branches.
Q. In other words, they abducted their judgment to the Waffen-SS that Dr. Ding was a typhus expert and that he had some words of importance to occupy the time of such men as Schreiber, Rose and Eyer? Is that right?
A. If I personally received these suggestions, I would only have raised an objection if there were any occasion to do so.
Q. Let me put a hypothetical question to you, Doctor. Let us suppose in April, 1943, you were personally arranging the program for the meeting of the consulting physicians in May, 1943, and that you had designated typhus and typhus vaccines as one of the matters to be discussed, and that the Waffen-SS suggested the name of Dr. Ding. You have already testified you had never heard of Dr. Ding. I am asking you what you would have done with respect to including Dr. Ding on the program to lecture on typhus under those condition?
A. I would have done the same thing I did with reference to other suggestions by the SS or suggestions by other branches of the Wehrmacht when I did not know all the gentlemen. I would have to rely upon their suggestion. This was not my task. I did not have time to investigate the quality of the individual suggested. I was only interested in getting the leading people for these lectures to which I attached particular importance. I had to have enough confidence in the medical chief of the individual Wehrmacht branches to know they would put people at my disposal who would serve the purpose well. That is all I can say.
Q. I would like to investigate your failure to read this report by Ding. I must assume from that you were not interested in the effectiveness of the typhus vaccine produced from egg yolks?
A. No, that is not right. According to my opinion ever since 1943 I received information about the vaccine situations, and I can say that so far as I am concerned, and so far as I had anything to do with the matter, the entire typhus complex was postponed. For the center of gravity and all the work was based on the delousing. That was a basical change which was of great importance.
Q. Now you recall having read Dings' report here in Nurnberg on egg yolk vaccine, and its effectiveness was really the care of the problem he was dealing with, and in this report he compared the effectiveness of egg yolk vaccines to the better known Bergl's vaccine, and I think also vaccine developed from rabbit lungs. You were not interested in that matter, is that right?
A. Certainly I was interested in these questions. I remember that through various ways I tried to gain various information on the typhus question, and among others I read an article which appeared in the press which was a long article on measures of ability of leadership at home, which was contemplated in order to protect against typhus, and this article -- this egg yolk question was also mentioned. Then discussions were carried on with Mr. Eyer as to whether we should extend the different vaccine procedure, and, Mr. Eyer also dealt with the question whether we could not use rabbit lungs, or dog lungs in a much more productive manner. Apart from that Mr. Eyer increased his production in such a manner, which was greatly to my satisfaction; that considering the progress we made in the program of delousing, these questions, which you have just mentioned, were not of such a primary interest as you tried to express here.
Q. General, I am not trying to express anything. I am asking you about your interest in these matters. I suppose you know where Eyer got his information and the effectiveness of these dog lung and rabbit lung vaccines, don't you? He got that from Buchenwald, didn't he?
A. I can not say, but I am sure that it was contained in literature, too.
Q. All right. Where did they test those dog lung and rabbit lung vaccines; in other words, where did Eyer get his information if he did not get it from Buchenwald?
A. You must not forget that I had my own hygienist on my staff in the headquarters, and it was one of his tasks, this hygienist, to inform himself about basical questions, and then to inform me accordingly, and, then I only know that the creating of that, that of considering the increased production of Mr. Eyer, and considering our delousing program, and considering the typhus situation, as it prevailed in 1942, that was the second half of 1942, we would not need to resort to that, and we actually proved this. I am really very interested in medicine, not only officially but also personally, but we are now seeing these things in a retrospection, and at that time I saw them the other way around, and I looked at these things from a very different point of view, as is the case here now; therefore, the situation is basically different.
Q. Who was your hygienist on the staff on whom you relied?
A. That was Lecturer Dr. Bickart.
Q. Will you spell that?
A. B-I-C-K-A-R-T, Bickart.
Q. You did not answer my previous question. Where in Germany to your knowledge did he carry out any research on the effectiveness of dog lung and rabbit lung vaccines; in fact, on any vaccine, do you know?
A. Well, I only know that the Robert Koch Institute bore that vaccine, The Behring Werks, and probably the Institute for Experimental Therapy in Frankfurt, and if you would be kind enough to read the article which was submitted by my defense counsel of a document which was written by one of the oldest experts on typhus and typhus vaccine, namely, Geheimrat Otto of Frankfurt, then I am sure that you would be enlightened about this complex question regarding mice and rabbits, and you will be completely informed about the subject. This was written in a paper where one could understand it, which is not a medical journal, but a general knowledge journal, and I think it is written in such a manner that it gives complete and excellent information about the situation. It is not a subjectively written report, and it is not a report made by a general medical specialist of Frankfurt, but made by an expert, and I think this report would answer all your questions.
Q. Geheimrat Otto, as I recall it, was attached to the Ministry of Interior, is that right?
A. No, this Geheimrat Otto was always the President, or at least for many years, of the Institute for Experimental Therapy in Frankfurt.
Q. And did you rely on his advice on this typhus question?
A. He was my adviser, and it was his task to do that. He had so much knowledge and ability that I could rely on him in the same way I could rely previously on Schreiber.
Q. What do you mean, "rely previously on Schreiber"?
A. I mean that on the basis of Schreiber's knowledge and work and his efforts, I could rely upon everything he suggested or whatever he gave me for my information. Considering the extent of my work, I was not in a position at all to read everything myself, and that certainly was not my task. I had these things reported to me by my departmental chiefs, and I then had to draw my own conclusions and sometimes asked questions if I thought it was necessary.
Q. Well, I understand that, General, but the way you phrased your answer, it might lead somebody to believe that you quit relying on Schreiber and started relying on Otto, and that is not the case, is it? Schreiber was working with you up until the end of the war, wasn't he?
A. Yes, but Schreiber did not act as my immediate advisor in my vicinity until the end of the war. Schreiber was with me in the army at the front until 1942. He was at the Medical Inspectorate until 1943, and then he went to the Academy, where he headed a scientific group, and of course he removed himself from me to a certain extent. I had, of course, an opportunity to collaborate ????????????????? was not my immediate collaborator anymore.
Q. Was it not the purpose of these meetings of consulting physicians to establish a basis for the issuance of medical directives?
A. Yes.
Q. General, I understood that you never were a member of the Reich Research Council; is that right?
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. Did. you ever attempt to become a member?
A. I spoke to Field Marshal Keitel about that when the Reich Research Council was created. I asked him whether it would not be right if the Wehrmacht was represented there. He at that time was of the same opinion and made that application. He repeated it at a later date, but this application was rejected. The reason was given that the individual expert departments were all covered by experts, that Field Marshal Keitel himself was a member of the Preasidial Council, and that, in addition, the President reserved the right whenever any basic question came up which particularly concerned military medicine to call upon the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service in such a case and use his advice.
That, however, never happened.
Q. General, I think that is a very clear picture of how these members of the Reich Research Council operated. They were representatives of the other medical services, weren't they?
A. I personally?
Q. The members of the Reich Research Council were appointed to the Reich Research Council in a sort of representative capacity for some other medical agencies, such as the Army Medical Inspectorate, weren't they?
A. There was no representative. The Army Medical Service had no representative on the Reich Research Council.
Q. Who was Schreiber?
A. Schreiber was a medical officer who had the expert department -- I should not call it a department; he was a plenipotentiary for the combatting of epidemics. That was a task which had nothing to do with his position as medical officer. In this position he had no relation to me whatsoever and was not dependent upon me or the army.
Q. Well, now, General, do you want to go back then and change that unfortunate word that you used a moment ago when you said you urged your appointment to the Preasidial Council of the Reich Research Council on the ground that you would then be the representative of the Wehrmacht? Isn't that what you said?
A. Yes. Schreiber was not a representative of the Wehrmacht. Schreiber entered the Council as an expert on the very special field of hygiene. I certainly did not fit into any position as a plenipetentiary or in an expert department. I was only interested in seeing to it that if something like that was created that the Medical Service -
A. Would be represented?
A. --would have some kind of representation, as is usually the case.
Q. And you want the Court to believe Schreiber worked in the Reich Research Council with his left hand and in the Army Medical Inspectorate with his right hand and that the one did not know what the other was doing; is that right?
A. I would not like to lead you to believe that. The first part is a fact. Whatever happened in the second part, namely, the knowledge of the right or the left hand -- a man cannot cut himself into two parts, but some personalities can keep these two things apart quite well. For Schreiber this no doubt meant a recognition of his efforts as an expert, being incorporated into the Reich Research Council as a representative for the combatting of epidemics. He emphasized that, and he felt himself rather elevated through his new position.
Q. Well, now, wasn't Schreiber, as a matter of fact, the representative for the Army Medical Inspectorate on the Reich Research Council?
A. No.
Q. Did Schreiber not report to you concerning his activities as a member of the Reich Research Council?
A. No.
Q. How did it come about that Schreiber was appointed to membership on the Reich Research Council? Did you recommend him?
A. No. Schreiber one day came to me, very much pleased with himself, and he told me that he had received a request to take ver this position. He asked whether he would have to inform his chief first, and in reply I told him that I authorized him to accept this position in the Reich Research Council and that, if necessary, I would help him in his medical sphere if it should come about that he could not quite manage his work. That is what happened.
Q. Didn't you exploit his work in the Reich Research Council which he performed there? Wasn't he really doing the same work in the Reich Research Council that he was doing an officer in the Army Medical Inspectorate?