A. I received n? insight whatsoever into his assignments or his tasks during the time that Schreiber was in the Reich Research Council.
Q. Is it not a fact that the Army Medical Inspectorate or some other appropriate army medical agency represented officers associated with the army for membership in the Reich Research Council as their representative?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Did you or any agency subordinated to you ever receive reports on scientific research from the Reich Research Council?
A. According to my knowledge, no.
Q. How were the results achieved by the Reich Research Council applied in a practical manner in the medical field if you did not receive any reports?
A. I don't know whether Schreiber had any possibility or used any possibility of communicating directly with the hygienist and thereby received some material, or whether he used the material which he received as commander of the scientific group, I cannot say. At any rate, no authority, no assignments, came from me officially.
Q. Well, do you want this Tribunal to believe that the Reich Research Council insofar as it investigated medical and scientific problems was working in some sort of a vaccum and that the results they achieved did not some to anybody's attention? After all, they were not of any use to the Reich Research Council itself.
A. Well, I don't know how far the Reich Research Council progressed with its intended work. There were many institutions which were thrown up, but you never heard anything further from them. I can only say that I personally received nothing; nothing came through my hands which impressed me in any way, and I am referring to any particular point or files regarding the medical research which was sent by the Reich Research Council to me. I don't know whether the Council had a special organization or a newspaper or any other such channel through which this agency could publish its work, but I don't remember anything like that.
Q I assume then the Schreiber didn't spend much time on his work with the Reich Research Council, since they didn't produce anything that you know anything about?
A Schreiber was very industrious. Whether any results were achieved, I cannot say? If they must have referred to experiences which he previously gathered in the Army Medical Service, or some summarizing information about military and civilian experiences. At the moment I cannot recollect any specific case.
Q Now, wasn't Schreiber, as a practical matter, subordinated to you in all his official activities, including whatever he did within the framework of the Reich Research Council?
A For his activity in the Reich Research Council, as I repeatedly declared here, Schreiber was completely independent of me and the Wehrmacht.
Q Suppose you decided that Gutzeit would be more useful to the Army on the Reich Research Council than Schreiber; couldn't you have substituted Gutzeit for Schreiber?
A No.
Q How did Schreiber divide his time, with respect to his work on the Reich Research Council and as an officer in the Army Medical Inspectorate?
A I cannot say that. Schreiber was no longer in the Army Medical Inspectorate, when he entered the Reich Research Council, and how he divided his time was a question that he had to decide with his commander, who was his superior.
Q General, I want to hand you Document No. NO-1490; maybe we can get a little bit better idea about what these fellows on the Reich Research Council from the army -- how they were appointed and who they were representing?
MR. MC HANEY: I offer this as Prosecution Exhibit No. 450, for identification.
Q (continuing) General, will you read aloud this letter from Fromm to Goering, dated 9 September 1942?
A Yes. "On 20 August 1942, I named 42 gentlemen through Army Ordnance as members of the Reich Research Council in the field of armament.
"From the further army branches, I have to propose:
"(1) Presiding Council. Since Secretary of State Conti and Professor Brandt are members of the presiding council, it seems to follow to call the Chief of the Medical Service of the Army-General-oberstabsarzt Prof. Dr. Handloser - also into the presiding council, in compliance with the decree of the Fuehrer concerning the Medical and Health Service, dated 28 July 1942 (Reich - Law- Publication 87/42).
"(2) Reich Research Council. It seems to me to be necessary to adopt the matter 'Military Medicine' after (e) Luftwaffe as a special field of research for the consulting board of managers.
"I request to call Oberstarzt Dr. Schreiber, Chief of department with the Army Medical Inspectorate, as a member of the Research Council in the field of Military Medicine.
"I assume that if necessity should arise, individual experts in social fields, for instance, veterinary service, Protection against epidemics and poison gas, Nutritional chemistry, Textiles could be assigned to the Reich Research Council without giving a nominal quotation at the present.
"(3) Consulting board of managers. I request to call Professor Dr. Loos from the Technical College at Berlin, as an expert for the Army into the consulting board of managers. If the consulting board of Professor Loos should deem it necessary to have an Army Officer assigned, I shall make suggestions." Signed Fromm."
Q Did you confer with Fromm about the appointment of these men to the Reich Research Council?
A. In my opinion, discussions of that question went through Keitel, then to the Chief of General Wehrmacht Office, Reinecke, who was exactly informed about that matter. Whether it was from there transferred to Fromm, I cannot judge. Fromm had nothing to do with me as Chief of Wehrmacht Medical Services. He only had something to do with me in my capacity as Army Medical Inspectorate. The Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Services was tied to tho OKW, which was tied to the higher agency. I have said before that I have discussed this question with Keitel and that it was rejected. I always assumed that this was something that originated from Keitel or Reinecke. However, that makes no difference. May I say something else? In addition, it says here, at the top, "Chief Armament of the Army."
That is Reinecke and that is OKW, namely, the General Wehrmacht Office. I think the situation was that they caused Fromm to make this application, rather than having the OKW do it themselves, which I think would have been the more correct way of dealing with it.
Q Well, General, you want the Court to believe that they appointed these subordinates of you to the Reich Research Council without consulting you about it or asking you your views in the matter?
A With my "subordinates" you probably mean Schreiber, don't you? It says here, about Schreiber, that he was suggested as a member for the field of military medicine.
Q Very well, do you mean to say that Military Medicine was not represented on the Reich Research Council?
A Military Medicine was not represented at all, later. He was merely responsible for the special field of combat of epidemics.
Q I'm asking you again, did Fromm or Keitel or Reinecke or any one of them ask you your opinion before Schreiber was recommended for appointment to the Reich Research Council?
A I cannot say that, now. That was in September 1942. It is really improbable that a medical officer in my office would have been disposed of without my knowledge.
Q I should think so too. Now, do you want the Tribunal to believe that General Fromm and yourself, in having Schreiber appointed to the Reich Research Council, were abdicating control over him, and thereby losing his services to the extent that he was active in the Reich Research Council?
A In that connection I have to say that these relationships as they can be seen from this document are completely different from those which actually came into appearance when Schreiber actually entered the Reich Research Council without the assistance of the Wehrmacht. Here he was supposed to represent the field of Military Medicine and that is something entirely different. The agency for Military Medicine is the Army Medical Inspector or if you like, the Chief of the Medical Service, but the field of work which actually was assigned to him later was no longer a certain sector from the military field, namely, the military medical service, but that was an all-comprising field of the combat of epidemics.
These are two entirely different fields, and, in this latter field, he had no connections with us whatsoever. I don't say "to me" but I say "to us." If, on the other hand, he had come to the Reich Research Council as a military medicine man, if I may say, then the thing would have been entirely different.
Q Did he, in fact, go there first as a military medicine man, as you put it?
A No; nothing ever came of his suggestion, as of the intention that the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service is demanded here be included in the records.
Q Well, we understand that you didn't succeed in your desire to be appointed to the presiding council, but it doesn't follow that Schreiber was not appointed after this letter was sent and I submit to you that he was, in fact.
A That is an error for no further application was made, coming from us, that is the Wehrmacht, namely, that Schreiber was to be included in the Reich Research Council. Through what channels this came about I can't say but, at any rate, it was not through military channels.
Q Well, when did Schreiber become a member of the Reich Research Council?
A The change of the Reich Research Council took place about the end of 1942, but I think I heard here that in 1943, the Reich Research Council reactivated itself in 1943 in a new form but I'm not quite sure whether that's correct.
Q General, you show an amazinq memory on some points and complete lack of memory on others. Now you insist at great length that Schreiber was not appointed to the Reich Research Council on the basis of this letter which I have just put before you. Yet you cannot tell me when he became a member of the Reich Research Council.
A I cannot give you the exact dates. I assume it was in the year 1943. I only know that one day when he was in Berlin he came to my room and told me that he received that request. I assume that my Chief of Staff, who will appear here as a witness, who had more limited sphere of work to do, could tell you a little more about this subject and could probably give you more exact dates. I cannot do that.
Q And this letter does not indicate to you that the army had complete control over the designation of its army officers in the Reich Research Council?
A In the first letter it says.... From the further remark "branches" I have to propose.... It say's I have to.... I believe that some request was made--that somebody made a request; then there is a man mentioned as coming from a technical high school. I can only imagine that there was some sort of a request and that this was the reply with reference to these officers that are mentioned here.
Q Let us pass on, General. Your attorney asked you whether or not you ever gained any information concerning the freezing experiments carried out by Rascher, Holzloehner and Finke. Do you deny that you ever received knowledge on that matter?
A I said no.
Q As a result of the Eastern Campaign weren't you very much interested in "Cold" problems?
A Yes.
Q Isn't that why you sent army officers to the Luftwaffe Conference in October 1942?
A Of course the interest in cold problems was of an important nature. I do not know who assigned them. From May until the end of October I was with headquarters in the Ukraine and I believe that the chief probably telephoned me, whether or how many people we should send, and he may have made some proposal, and I think I would have told him on that occasion "Yes, I am in full agreement.
Send somebody there." It is quite a matter of course that we send some of the people who know something about cold because they were interested in it.
Q Well, having sent them, you then immediately lost interest in the problem, I suppose?
A No, I did not lose interest. At some period of time somebody probably reported to me whether something particular had happened or whether there were any particular results or not, and what could be exploited by us. But at that time it was not mentioned that anything in particular had occurred, nor was it said that any particular revolutionary results were achieved. At any rate, I cannot recollect anything like that to have happened. I should merely like to point out that my interests in cold problems, that is these sphere problems, that is the socalled earth-bound cold, that is, normal height or as it referred to soldiers in mountain troops. That was something that was discussed with us during various meetings, at first during 1942, something that was discussed to a great extent and very exact directives were contained in these reports of these meetings. You will find them in 1942 and you will find them in 1943. Naturally we were interested in cold problems and it is quite a matter of course that whenever we were invited by the Luftwaffe that we would send our experts there and this is something that is done everywhere, not only in the Army and in the field of medicine, but in technical fields as well.
Q. Well, I thought that was probably correct, General; now I want to put it to you that Holzloehner had made a very remarkable discovery and one which I am sure came to your attention. Holzloehner and Rascher had found out that this massive warm bath was an extremely effective way of reviving persons from shock due to long exposure to cold, a treatment which had been first discovered by a Russian in the 19th century but had been forgotten somehow. Wasn't this a matter remarkable enough so that Schreiber who was at this meeting, or one of the many other army doctors who were down there, would perhaps call to your attention, after the extreme cold you had suffered in Russian the previous winter?
A. I said already before that at all times we were interested in cold problems and as you say, very correctly, mainly because of this terrible winter of 1941 and 1942. We already knew before that and there were regulations up to the war and perhaps during the first war, namely that people who were frozen had to be rewarmed very slowly; the entire population was informed that a frozen person should not be rewarmed very quickly. Even before that we included in our regulations that one should concentrate on rewarming and certain forms of rewarming were described. If we army people who knew frontal territory and Russia, were not so impressed by this warm bath, as you mentioned it, as you may think we were, it is probably for the reason that the entire Eastern Front just had no hot baths at their disposal and that plays quite a big role regarding the impression any new invention may have made on us.
Q. Well, now, General, let me put it to you this way. Did you make any changes in the basic directives concerning the rewarming after shock from exposure to cold after this Luftwaffe Conference or after the conference in December 1942?
A. If one would look through the reports of the meetings and the directives it is quite possible that some place, I can't tell you exactly where although I read that, something is said about warm or hot baths in regard to freezing. You yourself brought to our knowledge, through a document, that in December 1942 Holzloehner spoke about his rewarming questions during a meeting he held.
That was reported to 300 or 400 gentlemen who transferred that information to the front and I am sure that later on new directives contained the warm bath too.
Q. I am sure it did, too, General. That is the reason I asked you because I think that there is no doubt that great importance was attached to the results of this experiment in Dachau by Rascher, Holzloehner and Finke. I now want to ask you if you did'n't actually hear Holzloehner speak in December 1942 at the meeting of consulting physicians at the Military Medical Academy?
A. I cannot recollect that and must say once more that is something that was done within the various expert branches. I am sure you will see that these expert branches dealt with these suggestions themselves.
Q. Well, then, to put it to you, General, this speech by Holzloehner is reported in our Document NO 922, Prosecution Exhibit 435, and it goes on - you have a very short synopsis here of his report but he does give clinical observations in cases of deaths resulting from cold and I find that you made some comments at this cold session on page 51 of the original report. It reads:
"Handloser stresses the extraordinary importance of education also in combatting cold effects and appeals to all medical officers, in their capacity as leaders of the health service, to see to it that through ever repeated explanations each individual is taught to observe the necessary precautionary measures."
A. May I ask you where it is stated that is in reference to the lecture by Holzloehner? It seems to be within time framework of the cold problem.
Q. General, I will put the German to you so that you can see for yourself. General, let us read the little summary of the speech by Holzloehner because the Tribunal does not have this document before it. It reads:
"Stabsarzt Professor Holzloehner:
"Prevention and Treatment of Freezing.
In case of freezing in water of a temperature below 15° biological, counter-measures are practically ineffective, whether in the case of human beings or animals. Human beings succumb to reflectory rigidity, increase of blood sugar, an acidosis, at an earlier stage and to a greater extent than animals.
At a rectal temperature of below 30° Under such conditions of distress at sea auricular flutter regularly sets in; at under 28° heart-failure frequently occurs in human beings. (Over-exertion due to unequal distribution of blood, increased resistance and increased viscosity.) Treatment with drugs is senseless and has no effect. In the case of human-beings best results are also achieved with hot baths. The feam-suit was developed as a prophylaxis against freezing in water below 15°."
Now, General, after that little summary of the talk by Holzloehner there were several other lecturers on freezing problems and then at the end we have the gentlemen who made some comments on these lectures; we find among them Bremer, Dr. Hippke, the man who commissioned these experiments, and Jarisch and Buechner. Now I want to ask you if this document refreshes your recollection so that you can tell us whether or not you head this report by Holzloehner.
A. Yes, after reading what I have in my hand, now it is quite possible that I listened to this lecture. At the same time, it is a proof that I have not as good a memory as you assumed, because I already had this Document in my hands once before here in Nurnberg; you once gave it to me and I forgot about it.
Q. Now, did Holzloehner describe clinical observations in that death resulting from cold human beings in this lecture which you heard?
A. I cannot tell you that.
Q. Does it not say so in your own report here?
A. It says here that Holzloehner belonged to the Luftwaffe and as far as I was informed later, Holzloehner had gained large experiences from his service at the Atlantic Coast. I am sure that was something that was mentioned during his lecture. He had an emergency sea station near the Atlantic Coast and near that there was a hospital where he treated these frozen people who had been rescued from the sea. There was no cause to suspect anything special behind this.
Q. Was it apparent to you that he carried out experiments on human beings?
A. No.
Q. Well, General, we have heard some testimony here about the talk Holzloehner gave in Nurnberg two months before this and as I recall, there was some indignation in this meeting in October, 1942, because all these gentlemen realized what had happened; are you telling me that no rumor of this seeped up from Nurnberg to Berlin in two months, so when the same man gave the same talk, you gentlemen were in complete ignorance about the fact that these experiments had been carried out on living human beings in a concentration camp?
A. How far any discussions or any particular impressions were noted in Nurnberg, I cannot say. At any rate, I never heard anything about any discussions or any decline.
I could well imagine that if I would hold a lecture anywhere and if afterward I gained the impression that there was some kind of unclarification, or some one might call too much attention, and if two months later, I was holding the same lecture at another place, I would naturally change my lecture and I would draw my conclusions from what I had learned previously. I am sure that this well might have been the case here. At any rate, after reading this excerpt, if a few pages are missing here and if somebody does not look at the pages exactly, he must assume that the man noted down here as Handloser spoke immediately after the lecture of Holzloehner. I believe that the report of the meeting itself will show you that between the lecture of Holzloehner and the discussion, there were a few other lectures and you will have to admit that considering the fact that we were approaching winter again, because this meeting took place in December 1942, my remarks did not refer so much to Professor Holzloehner's lecture, but it was merely a reminder that we wanted to do everything and in that way wanted to concentrate our entire interest to the front where freezing took place in order to help our soldiers. That is all it means to say.
Q. I suppose the Tribunal wishes to adjourn at this point. I might say it is not the desire of the Prosecution to hamper either the Defendant Handloser or Dr. Nelte, his counsel, in the continued preparation of their case. In view of the fact that we are now adjourning for a period of four days, I would be willing to permit Dr. Nelte to confer with his client, if Dr. Nelte will state for the record that he will in no manner, shape or form discuss with his client the matters about which he has already been interrogated, or in any way coach him on subjects which may come up. I don't mean by that to bar him from discussing any of the subjects, which I will interrogate him about, that is typhus or anything like that, but if he wants to discuss with Dr. Handloser the question of some wit nesses, further affidavits or matters of that character, I will be willing to let him do it on the basis of the understanding that he will not in any way influence the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal inquires of counsel for Defendant Handloser whether he deems it important to consult with his client during these days of recess, the Tribunal stating that if he does feel that is important, the Tribunal will consent, relying upon Dr. Nelte to conform with these principles of professional ethics to which he should confirm under the circumstances.
DR. NELTE: Mr. President, I thank Mr. McHaney very kindly for his suggestion and I thank you for the confidence which you place in me and I can assure you that I shall comply with the professional ethics of our profession and I shall only speak to my client about questions, which have nothing to do with the complex of questions that are the subject of cross-examination.
THE PRESIDENT: The counsel for Defendant Handloser may talk with his witness during the recess.
The Tribunal will be in recess until 9:30 o'clock Tuesday morning.
(The Tribunal recessed at 1652 Hours)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 18 February 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Court Room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 1.
Military Tribunal 1 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, have you ascertained if the defendants are all in Court?
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honors, all defendants are present in the Court Room.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in Court.
Counsel may proceed with the cross examination of the witness.
MR. McHANEY: May it please the Court.
SIEGFRIED HANDLOSER - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q General, isn't the utilization of material and personnel in the field of medical research a common problem of all branches of the Wehrmacht? I will repeat the question, General. Isn't the utilization of material and personnel in the field of medical research a common problem of all branches of the Wehrmacht, requiring a coordinated and planned direction?
A The question never confronted me.
Q Well, whether it confronted you or not, wasn't the utilization of material and personnel in the field of medical research a common problem of all branches of the Wehrmacht?
A The personnel was distributed in such a way as was practicable for the individual institutions and agencies; and the constant requirements of material which they had were settled automatically according to the demands, which I did not have in my hands.
Q General, you'll recall that the Fuehrer Decree of July 1942 vested you with jurisdiction ever problems concerning the utilization of material and personnel. You remember that?
A Yes, it was the material and personnel coordination; and the reason for this was that at a central office for reasons of economy the strength of the individual branches of the Wehrmacht was to be distributed according to the size and the requirements of the individual branches.
Q Well, now, General, we understand that; but we are trying to give some content to these general words "material" and "personnel"; and I'm asking you if the utilization of material and personnel in the field of medical research wasn't a common problem, requiring coordination, which fell with in your jurisdiction under the decree of July 1942.
A I can only say that in practice -- and that is the most important this question did not even come up in my staff and within my field of competence. Nothing was ever submitted to me with regard to the distribution of material or personnel where I would have had to make a decision because there were different difficulties in this respect and that is the most important.
Q General, you'll remember that I read part of your speech to the consulting physicians at the meeting held from 30 November to 3 December 19???
A Yes.
Q That was Document No-922, Prosecution Exhibit 435. In that speech, General, you said in part that "it is not a question of marching separately and battling together, but marching and battling must be done in unison from the beginning in all fields. As a result, as concerns the military sector, Wehrmacht medical service, and with it the chief of the medical services of the Wehrmacht, came into being. Not only in matters of personnel and material even as far as this is possible in view of special fields and special tasks which must be considered, but also with the view to medical, scientific education and research, our path in the Wehrmacht medical service must and will be a unified one."
A Yes.
Q Aren't you saying there, General, that the coordination of scientific research was one of your jobs as chief of the medical service of the Wehrmacht?
A Yes, it was in all the fields where this was required and necessary.
Q General, did you have any interest in the treatment of wounds cause by gas of various types?
A Of course I was interested.
Q What research was done, to your knowledge, on this question?
A In the Wehrmacht we had two separate fields. They were the military field about the use of chemical warfare agents and the medical field for the treatment of injuries sustained because of such chemical agents. Accordingly, there were two separate regulations. There was one regulation which referred to the military use; and there was one regulation which referred to the treatment. These were the army regulations Number 395 and a printed regulation Number 396. That was the medical regulation. During the war it was completely reproduced on two or three occasions. I have always shown a special interest in this service regulation. In connection with this the most emphasis was placed on the question of the burning chemical warfare agents, mainly lost gas; and as far as I can remember the first World War, this was a field of special interest, not only with us but also in all countries.
Q Well, did you know of any gas experiments carried out on human beings?
A Yes. We had a laboratory, an institute, in the academy which had always had the assignment and which was also given the assignment by me to try finally to find a very practicable method of treatment; as we called it, to find a decontamination procedure; and this assignment was very zealously carried out. It finally resulted in the fact that in the course of the year 1943 we found an excellent skin decontamination procedure. Experiments were carried out on animals. Then they were carried out on voluntary officer candidates. They were medical students in our military medical academy. They were furthermore carried out on soldiers in the army chemical warfare service school where the training took place for the gas protection offices.
That was located at Zelle.
Q Did you know of any gas experiments carried out on concentration camp inmates?
A No.
Q You testified that you knew nothing about August Hirt's lost experiments? Is that correct?
A No, I did not know anything about them.
Q. You probably remember Herr Brandt and I discussing the experiments of Bickenbach which Brandt described as being carried out on animals, phosgene experiments, I think? Do you know anything about the experiments of Bickenbach?
A. No.
Q. Did you have an officer by the name of Wirth, W-i-r-t-h, working on gas problems in the Army Medical Inspectorate?
A. I cannot remember the name Wirth at all.
Q. Why I thought you were calling Wirth here to testify in your behalf?
A. I have not had Wirth called here.
Q. The name is Wirth.
A. Yes, Wirth. I have not had Wirth called here.
Q. And you don't know him?
A. Of course I know him. I have known him for years. He was a specialist in the Military Medical Academy.
Q. That is what I am trying to get at. Will you tell us what Wirth was and what he did?
A. Wirth was a student of Fluri and Wirth was the successor of Munsch who had worked on chemical warfare agents for many years and who had written books which can be found in any book store about chemical warfare agency. Wirth was the head of the Pharmacological Institute Department in the Military Medical Academy in whose field he dealt. Among other things with the service regulation No 396 which has been mentioned before He had been assigned by my predecessor, Dr. Waldmann, to improve the decontamination drugs and during the entire time which I held office I have kept on working on this assignment.
Q. Well, in your opinion, Wirth would probably be informed on all gas research in Germany, wouldn't he?
A. I have not said with all gas research in Germany but I said that he was head of the Institute at Berlin and that he was special consultant in the field, that he was special consultant for the Wehrmacht, or the Army, in the field of chemical warfare agents.
Q. Well, he was your foremost authority on gas problems, was he not?
A. I would not call him the first authority but it rather is my opinion that the first authority would be his teacher, the well known Professor Fluri.
Q. What is Wirth's first name, do you know?
A. No. I assume that his first name begins with "W". I think on one occasion I read W. Wirth, but I am not sure.
Q. Did you know if Wirth ever worked with Bickenbach?
A. No, I cannot tell you that.
Q. Wirth is the man who recommended to Karl Brandt experiments for the decontamination of water poisoned with lost, isn't he?
A. I have read that here for the first time in the document which you have presented here.
Q. That was in Document N0-154, Prosecution Exhibit 446, for identification. You will remember that document contained the paragraph which read as follows: "The third series of experiments were carried out with the agent of the lost group, the asphixiating gas lost, in accordance with suggestion made by Oberarzt Dr. Wirth at the conference 4 December 1944 with Reich Commissioner Dr. Brandt." Those experiments were carried out on concentration camp inmates, weren't they General?
A. I cannot give you any information at all about that. I do not know anything about the session, which is mentioned in the document, nor can I tell you the reasons for it.
Q. Does it strike you as a little strange that one of the officers in the Army Medical Inspectorate would be recommending experiments on concentration camp inmates unless he knew that practice was approved by his superiors?
A. I cannot judge if Professor Wirth made this suggestion that such experiments be carried out on concentration camp persons. I don't know anything about that.
Q. I was just asking you if you wouldn't find it strange that an Army officer would suggest or participate in experiments on concentration camp inmates unless he knew that his superiors had no objection to it.
Wouldn't you find it strange if he did that?
A. Professor Wirth could not have believed that I would agree to this because we have never discussed this question at any time.
Q. Did you know Dohmen?
A. I knew Dohmen very slightly. I can remember him because in one of our meetings he gave a very good lecture about epidemic jaundice. I can remember that on the occasion of some meeting which I attended when I welcomed all the people attending. I asked one of them, "Where are you working and who are you?" And Gutzeit told me "That is Stabsarzt Dohmen." I did not have any personal contact with Dohmen. I can only remember him because he gave an excellent lecture about the jaundice and about the little incident with Gutzeit.
Q. As I recall you testified that you knew nothing about Dohmen's experiments in Sachsenhausen on concentration camp inmates, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you call the Breslau conference on jaundice in 1944?
A. When I opened the conference in 1944 I states, and that is contained in my opening address, that I had given orders that all German hepatitis scientists, regardless if working in the Wehrmacht or civilian center, to hold a meeting in the near future in order to give them the opportunity to exchange their experiences and, above all, to compare the cultures which they had discovered, to compare them and to test them.
Q. Did you attend the Breslau conference?
A. Yes.
Q. Didn't you know of the collaboration of Hagen and Dohmen in Strassburg?
A. I did not know anything about that. I know they worked together in this field. I only knew one time about it - that was Schreiber presiding over the meeting. I know that in the course of the meeting he had the very fortunate idea to suggest that various working groups should be formed so that at least these working groups could exchange their experiences.