A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember Document NO-257, Prosecution Exhibit 283, which is affidavit of Dr. Ding telling about his meeting with Mrugowsky and Schreiber at the Military Medical Academy at the end of 1942 on gas burn edema?
A. No.
Q. What is gas edema?
A. Gas edema is a disease which is caused by wounds and injuries, whenever a certain type of virus, and in this case they are bacteria, are introduced into the wound. The word edema can be translated into German, with a certain swelling, since this disease is characterized by a swelling, and at the same time by a formation of gas which is caused by these bacteria. Then it is called gas burn or gas edema. It is one of the most feared complications which we can find in the field after injuries and the mortality rate of such people is terrifyingly high. Furthermore, this disease is very often characterized by the fact that the surgeon is forced, in order to try to save the life of the afflicted person, he has to carry out very large amputations, or perhaps he has to amputate a limb from the joint of the hip? of the shoulder.
Q. That will be sufficient, I think, General, Now, did you have a gas edema serum in Germany?
A. Yes.
Q. Did it ever come to your attention that soldiers treated with gas edema serum died suddenly after apparent recuperation?
A. Yes. As far as I know this came from the fields of professor Kil? If any success was to be achieved at all with this gas serum it had to be given repeatedly in very large doses, and somebody finally had the idea that these fatalities which could not be properly explained might perhaps be tra? back to the phenol components which were contained in the serum.
Q. And this gas edema was the topic of one of your conferences at the Military Medical Academy, was it not? Didn't you have a report by consulting physicians on this topic at one of your meetings?
A. My predecessor directed the first conference during the past war. That was in 1940. It was held by Dr. Waldmann after the campaign in Poland had been completed and already one of the main lectures was given about the gas problem. Ever since that time the importance of this problem has always been discussed with regard to gas edema.
Q. Well, let's go back to this Ding affidavit, Document NO-257, Prosecution Exhibit 283. You have described this gas edema problem just about the same way that Dr. Ding did. It reads: "At the end of 1942 I took part at a conference in the Military Doctors' Academy in Berlin. The topic of discussion was the fatality of gas burn serum on wounded. Attendants, General Dr. Professor Schreiber, SS Brigadier General Professor Mrugowsky, a medical officer who was unknown to me who was a surgeon, myself as section leader of the Central Institution in Berlin for Fighting Epidemics. Kalian whom you have already mentioned... "and Mrugowsky gave reports of soldiers who had received gas edema serum in high quantities, up to 1500 cubic centimeters, and hours afterwards, after complete recuperation died suddenly without any visible reason. Mrugowsky suspected that the phenol content brought about the fatal result of the consolidation of the separate injection. In the presence of the other gentlemen, Mrugowsky commanded me to take part in euthanasia with phenol in a concentration camp and to describe the result in detail, since neither I nor Mrugowsky ever saw a case of death through phenol."
Q. Did Schreiber over tell you anything about that?
A. No.
Q. Schreiber didn't tell you very much about anything, did he?
A. Schreiber reported very much to me, and I have worked together with him for many years.
Q. How does it happen he never told you about these little disagree incidents of killing of concentration camp inmates by Dr. Ding?
A. I do not know the reasons which Schreiber had for doing that. I also do not know to what extent Schreiber was informed.
Q. Did you know of Keitel's order that the Wehrmacht was to have nothing to do with experiments on human beings?
A. In this form, I do not know anything about it in the form in which it has been stated in some place here. I can only say that this was an old point of view of the Wehrmacht and that perhaps Keitel brought this up once again at some place but I do not know it in the connection in which it has been mentioned here.
Q. What do you mean that's an old view of the Wehrmacht? What's an old view of the Wehrmacht?
A. I have understood you to say that Keitel had stated that no experiments should be carried out on human beings on behalf of the Wehrmacht.
Q. That statement is contained in Document NO-1309, Prosecution Exhibit 326, which is a memorandum on a meeting between Professor Klieve and Professor Blome concerning biological warfare and proposed experiments on human beings, dated 23 February 1944. "Blome had reported that he had until now made no experiments in the field of human medicine. These, however, are necessary and he plans to make them. A new institute under his control is being built near Posen in which biological weapons are to be studied and tested. Field Marshal Keitel has given the permission to build. Reichfuehrer SS and Generalarzt Professor Brandt have assured him of vast support. By request of Field Marshal Keitel the armed forces are not to have a responsible share in the experiments since experiments will also be conduct on human beings." That's what Keitel had to say.
A Well, that would be a general disapproval. That is quite possible, but I have never discussed it with Keitel. Therefore, I cannot give you any judgement to that effect.
Q Well, how do you explain the fact that Keitel, who was not a medical man, was aware of experimentation on human beings while you were not, and that he had issued an order that the agencies under his control were not to participate in them? How do you explain that he knew about those experiments and you didn't?
A I can explain this in this way that Keitel was in the Fuehrer's headquarters, that he has heard some reports or that he heard about some reports which did not come to my knowledge--I was not in the Fuehrer's headquarters--that the circle in the Fuehrer's headquarters was also very limited and probably always varied, and quite a few things may have been discussed at the Fuehrer's headquarters which did not come to the knowledge or other people.
I have not discussed experiments of human beings with regard--inside the Wehrmacht or outside the Wehrmacht with Keitel, and, therefore, in connection with--I cannot have any idea with anything like that in connection with me.
Q If Keitel disapproval of them and issued an order that the Wehrmacht was not to participate in them, who would get the order? Wouldn't you get a copy as chief physician of the Medical Services of the Wehrmacht?
A No. I did not receive any.
Q What was your connection with the Blitzableiter Committee?
A There was no connection at all.
Q Weren't you in charge, as a matter of fact, of the study of human bacteriology in connection with biological warfare?
A That was not my assignment, but it was the assignment of a physician by the name of Dr. Klieve and who had been ordered to study the medical literature of the foreign countries to the effect on what had been achieved in that field, and who further had to give medical advice to the Armament Office of the Army as specialist in this field, and he also had to act as a specialist when any questions were addressed to him.
Q Who was in charge of animal ?
A I cannot tell you that. I only know that at the meeting with Blome in 1943 the General Veterinary, Dr. Richter, was present. However, I do not know if he was only there as Deputy Office Inspector or if he was only there in his specialist field. I do not know. I have never discussed the question with him.
Q Didn't you know that Blome had suggested biological warfare experiments on human beings?
A No.
Q Let me read a paragraph to you out of Document NO-1308. That is Prosecution Exhibit 325. This is a report by Klieve dated 25 September 1943. It says: "Since it is not known under what conditions inhaled aerosol or dispersed droplets of certain pathogenic germs cause disease in man, Professor Blome has suggested experiments on human beings. Experimentation in the laboratories of the Academy of Military Medicine was rejected."
Now who could reject these experiments in the laboratories of the Academy of Military Medicine unless it was you or Schreiber?
A Well, that may have been Klieve, for example. Klieve may have said that is completely out of the question for us, and I could imagine that there were laboratories without any clinical contacts at all. All this has been put together, and actually they are only laboratories which work on the reactions and which only concern themselves with experiments on animals.
Q Do you deny any knowledge that experiments with biological warfare were carried out on human beings?
A No, I do not know anything about them; but, Mr. Prosecutor, I would like to put one request to you. Now when you use the word "deny"--it was previously described as deny--in German when we say "deny" it means dispute, to argue, but if the word "deny" is used in that case, in German with us it would mean to state the untruth, and I am under oath here, and I certainly do not have the intention of stating any untruth, and perhaps could you please tell the interpreter so she will interpret that with the appropriate German word for it which is "abstreiten" and not to deny.
Q Very well, General, what institutions were producing yellow fever vaccines in Germany?
A I assume that the Behring Works concerned themselves with the production. For us it was the central agency for all these matters. In excess of that I have also heard here that they had received orders. I cannot say that I did not participate in these things before, but I did not know anything about them in detail. Also a third agency was mentioned which at the moment I cannot remember either. Furthermore, the yellow fever question in Germany was only discussed very temporarily and it only played a part as long as the campaign in Africa was acute.
Q Now, General, we have the Behring Works at Marburg. Wasn't the Robert Koch Institute also producing yellow fever vaccines?
A That may be quite possible.
Q And the Typhus and Virus Institute of the OKH at Krakow?
A Yes. I have read that here, and that is also quite possible?
Q And you admit that you may have commissioned them to manufacture this vaccine?
A I admit that this possibility is quite feasible.
Q Was a live virus used in this vaccine?
A Yes. It is usually described as a live virus. I also want to state that with the layman that causes the impression that this was a very dangerous matter, but there has never been a virus which is less dangerous than the one which we are just discussing. I can really put my hand into the fire with regard to the fact that no human being can suffer any damage from this vaccine.
Q Well, what was the reason for desiring to test this vaccine?
A I really cannot tell you that because as far as I was informed, it was a vaccine which had already been tested and which was really dependable, and I was very much surprised to see that there was a subsequent experimentation with it. I cannot explain this myself.
Q Well, you recall that it says in the Ding Diary, which is Document NO-265, Prosecution Exhibit 287, that since the live virus is being handled for safety's sake, from each vaccine charge a test is to be performed on five persons.
You state you don't understand that?
A No. I cannot possibly understand it. However, I want to state here that I am neither a serologist or a bacteriologist. I can only state that as far as my knowledge is concerned, I cannot understand the paragraph which is contained in the Ding Diary.
Q And you never heard anything about these experiments at Buchenwald with these yellow fever vaccines?
A No.
Q Dr. Schmidt didn't tell you?
A No.
Q And who is Dr. Schmidt?
A Dr. Schmidt was the hygienist an the Army Medical Inspectorate. He went through the French campaign with the Army Medical Inspector and in 1942 when I occupied my office in the Army Medical Inspectorate at Berlin he worked there under me until August, 1944.
Q He never reported anything to you about this?
A No.
Q Is he the same Schmidt you are calling here to testify?
A Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The Court will be in recess for a few moments.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. General, when was the typhus and virus institute of the OKH at Lemberg activated?
A. I cannot tell you that exactly. I only know that in the year of 1941, I think it was in June, I attended the institute during an inspection in Lemberg and that, at that time, it was fully activated.
Q. Now, General, I listened to your testimony concerning typhus and the possibility of your having been present at a conference on typhus on 29 December 1941, and I'm a bit confused by that testimony. Do you deny having been present at a conference with Conti, Reiter, Gildemeister, Mrugowsky or any one of them on 29 December 1941 concerning typhus vaccines and the testing thereof?
A. Already in Oberursel in September, 1945, I said that regarding the date, day, time and place and participants of such a conference I knew nothing because of the length of time which preceded it. I know nothing clearly in my recollection. I only know that at some time when typhus started to expand with us, that is the winter of 1941 or 1942, I drew attention to the civilian sector, and I think it was Conti, of the large losses of material regarding eggs and I remember the number of fifty or more per cent in that connection. At that time I already stated in Oberursel at the time when I didn't know everything that I know now I didn't know what it was really all about - that I had nothing to do with a conference in any way in connection with concentration camps or the use of inmates or the use of any methods which deviated from the ones employed so far, and I can only repeat that here.
Q. Well, General, since you mentioned this statement at Oberursel let's put it before the Tribunal. This is Document NO. 732 which we offer as Prosecution Exhibit 451 for identification. General, this is a copy of that statement you made in Oberursel, isn't it?
A. Yes, in Oberursel I made many such statements.
Q. Let's turn to paragraph 4 of this statement where it says:
"According to the statement of the interrogating American officer, I was supposed to have attended a meeting in 1941, at which Reiter, Conti and Mrugowsky were present, and to have suggested the carrying out of typhus research on human beings. I cannot recollect the date, place and participants, nor the course of such a meeting because of the many years that have passed and the numerous incidents that have occurred."
Paragraph 5:
"As far as the typhus problem is concerned, it may have been the following: Production of the known, very effective typhus vaccine, according to the method of Prof. Weigel of Lemberg, which was derived from lice, dragged far behind the actual demands, despite an increase. Typhus vaccine was also produced in the Robert Koch Institute, through cultures in chicken eggs; its dependable efficiency, however, was not sufficiently proved. To provide adequate protection for the combat areas, as well as for the zone of the interior against typhus, it became necessary to clarify the value of this vaccine at the earliest moment. It is therefore quite possible that in the course of a conference Dr. Mrugowsky might have been assigned to carry on studies about parallel tests, about dosage, compatibility and efficiency of this typhus vaccine on the human being.
"The purpose was to arrive at a final conclusion whether the vaccine produced by the Robert Koch Institute was adequately efficient and could be used in the Wehrmacht and in typhus areas on the Eastern Front with a considerable prospect of success."
Now, General, you can't deny that you participated in such a meeting on 29 December 1941, can You? There is that possibility, isn't there?
A. I said that I can say nothing about the time it took place and I have already testified here that, naturally, conferences took place about the typhus and vaccine question. When the interrogator at Oberursel asked me directly whether it couldn't be possible that I had spoken to Mrugowsky and that such a conference had taken place I told him that I was quite sure that many such conferences took place. What I was concerned with - I spoke about it before - was the testing of the chicken egg vaccine on a sufficient number of persons in a certain vicinity; that is, within an area where spotted typhus had already occurred or there was an imminent danger existing.
Q Now, General, lets don't confuse the issue by interjecting disputed matters like concentration camps and the method of testing, etc. We are now trying to establish whether this meeting took place and I understand that your attorney is vigorously attaching this entry in the Ding Diary; also Dr. Mrugowsky's attorney is asserting that this is a forgery. I am very much interested in your asserting that there is a possibility that you attended such a meeting. With whom were you working on this typhus problem? When did you first meet Mrugowsky?
A I do not know how to understand you when you ask me where I worked. We in the army were concerned with the question the minute the first occurrences of typhus became known and this question was with us until we came to the conclusion that in addition to the increase of production of drugs we would have to resort to delousing with the most certain methods available. You have to imagine that from the moment the reports came from the front our concern with this question did not stop at all and I am quite sure that the front physician as well as the home physician had many conferences of that nature.
Q When did you first meet Mrugowsky?
A In my opinion I met him at the beginning of the Eastern Campaign. For the first time I heard the name Mrugowsky mentioned by Schreiber, who drew my attention to the fact that Mrugowsky was a very well educated hygienist, that he had much practical knowledge and that he would have to be concerned with that problem anyway in order to care for the troops who were committed at the front, and thereby got into contract with the Wehrmacht. I assure that this occurred during the summer of 1941--yes, I think it was the summer of 1941.
Q Well, do you remember the occasion of your first con tact with him?
Did you call him to talk to you about the typhus problem?
A I cannot tell you that. I think contact took place perhaps in Berlin but I think it was more probable that it was at the Headquarters.
Q How many times did you have contact with Mrugowsky?
A I only got into personal contact with him during 2 larger conferences which took place in the latter years where the question was general vaccine measures for the Wehrmacht; beyond that I think we may have met on two or three occasions. I don't think we met any more than that.
Q What was the occasion of this conference that you are talking about? What problems were you discussing there? What was decided? When was it held?
A I cannot give you any exact dates. We were concernes with the combined vaccinations against diarrhea, against typhus exanthematicus in connection with typhoid and cholera and, in addition, general hygienic measures at the front; delousing was mentioned and played a part at that time and I think cold may have played a part then. I can't tell you exactly.
Q Could that have been some time in the early part of 1943?
A It is very hard for me to tell you that.
Q Well, the reason I put that to you, General, is because I find an entry in the Ding Diary on 24 March 1943 to 20 April 1943 where it says "carrying out of a large scale experiment on 45 persons by a process of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS by SS-Standartenfuehrer Dr. Mrugowsky, vaccinations were made on 8 different days within 4 weeks against smallpox, typhus, typhoid a and b, cholera, spotted fever and diptheria." Now you have just mentioned here that this con ference was concerned with vaccinations of various types, some of which I have just mentioned here.
I am just suggesting to you that maybe Mrugowsky left this conference and went to Buchenwald and carried out this mass vaccination test that is entered here on the 23rd of March 1943. Is that a possibility too?
A I can only say that the problem was so wide and open one could not possibly create a precise date of the spring of 1943 on something that played a part during every conference. This was born of the principle not to give too many vaccinations to the soldier but copy foreign countries and combine a number of vaccines, 2, 3, or 4 in one injection. That is nothing new--foreign countries had practiced that for some time, whereas in Germany there were still some inhibitions about that procedure. This was a point which was quite openly discussed during scientific senates, conferences, and even smaller discussions. Perhaps I should add that I am not quite sure when this combination of vaccinations was introduced but it had already played a part before 1943.
Q But what was the subject of your conference at which Mrugowsky was in attendance that you have mentioned?
A I cannot tell you that. I must repeat that so many conferences took place in the front and at home about various things that it is quite impossible for me that I could precisely tell you the date of any one such conference if I am not given some material, which would be now a printed report, which would refresh my memory as to the exact date.
Q What other meeting do you remember that you had with Mrugowsky?
A I have just told you these were general meetings. I assume that he attended the general malaria conference in the year of 1944, which was intended to set up certain dates and to establish geographically exactly in what territories of Italy, the Balkans and Russia malaria prophylactics were to be carried out.
I think he attended there; if not he himself, a representative of his must have been there.
Q And there is a possibility that you were at a meeting with him in December 1941 concerning this typhus problem, isn't there?
A I can neither say yes nor can I say no. At that time of the year we had serious concerns regarding typhus.
Q What was your association with Reiter in connection with typhus?
A None at all.
Q Did you ever have any contact with Reiter?
A I had contacts with Reiter because he was a member of the Scientific Senate but I have already told you that this Senate met only on very rare occasions during the war and not at all after 1942. Otherwise I have very rarely met Reiter. I had no conference with Reiter except for the Scientific Senate. At least I do not recollect a simple one.
Q Well, what was Reiter's principle job?
A Reiter was President of the Reich Public Health Offfice. I think that such matters which required mutual settlement in Germany, for instance in the field of drugs, in the field of health welfare, in the field of directives regarding the control of some vaccines or other drugs--these were all matters that came within the Reich public Health Office. But as I said before, my contacts with that office were so rare that I could not give you any detailed examples of their activities.
Q Well, the Reich Public Health Office, was that a part of the Ministry of the Interior?
A I only remember the following. The Reich Public Health Office came within the sphere of the Reich Ministry of Interior.
I remember that this was not an exactly successful marriage. How far the Reich Public Health Office acted independently and how far it was dependent on the Ministry of the interior, I can't tell you.
Q Well he was probably subordinated to Conti as Secretary of State for Health, wasn't he?
A Yes, to the Reich Minister of the Interior, and since this was a medical agency, the Reich Health Office and, I should think, that he was subordinated to the entire State Secretary of the Minister of the Interior.
Q How often did you have contact with Gildemeister?
A For the last time I met Gildemeister during a conference where my successor, the Army Medical Inspector, was present too, in November 1944. At that time we held a conference about the necessity of doing something against eventual occurrences of influenza which threatened to attack us during that coming winter and if I am not deceived, Mr. Gildemeister was present during that conference. Whether he attended the malaria conference I cannot tell you for certain. It is possible, however, Whether he attended the dysentery conference, that is something I should think was probable. Whether I had any discussions with him at any time during that winter regarding a spotted fever or chicken-egg vaccine can be seen from the fact that I remember these amounts of eggs. Otherwise I had no contact at all with Gildemeister.
Q Well but you did have contacts with Gildemeister on typhus vaccines, didn't you?
A Certainly there was some discussion regarding the typhus vaccine and other certain vaccines from the Robert Koch Institute with reference to chicken eggs.
Q. Gildemeister was President of the Robert Koch Institute, wasn't he?
A. Yes, Gildemeister was President of the Robert Koch Institute.
Q. And the Robert Koch Institute was subordinated to the Ministry of Interior, was it not?
A. Yes, I believe to know that when it became a Reich institute it must have been subordinated to the Reich Ministry of the Interior. I don't know what the situation was before that with certainty. I always imagined that the Robert Koch Institute was the agency of which the Reich Ministry of the Interior made use when it needed any counsel on any matter. I think that is how I always understood it.
Q. And as a practical matter Conti was the man in charge of the Robert Koch Institute in the Ministry of Interior?
A. Yes, I would say that with certainty when it was a Reich institution. I don't know what the situation was before that with certain. I can tell you nothing for certain. This is merely a supposition on my part.
Q. Now, didn't you have contacts with Conti on the problem of typhus, production of typhus vaccines, the efficiency of typhus vaccines?
A. Here again I have to say that the contact with Conti was made in order to present the dangerous situation of the winter of 1941 and 1942, and when beyond that any vaccine was discussed, it could only have been a question of the Otto vaccine. I myself has heard of this vaccine. I had often discussed this vaccine with Schreiber whereas the other vaccines which came into appearance later and are being mentioned here were of no conception to me at that time.
Q. Now, while your memory may be hazy about whether this or that person was present at a conference on this or that date, there is no dispute, is there, that you did in fact attend a conference where the whole question of the efficiency of the egg yolk vaccine was discussed and where it was decided that the experiments would have to be made on human beings; isn't that true?
A. Not, that is not true in this form. Never and at no time have I said that I attended a large scale conference in a large circle with these precise details. I only said at all times that we were concerned with information passed on to the civilian sector. What, after that, took place in the way of conference I don't know. But as for a conference as it contained in the Ding Diary in this form and in the decisions as they were reached there, I did not take part.
Q. Do you know under whose jurisdiction the production of typhus vaccine came?
A. That is hard to say. For instance, the production of vaccine in Krakow and Lemberg was ordered by the Army Medical Inspector. The procedure was known. The directive originates from my predecessor and was maintained by me. Who gave their directives to the Robert Koch Institute or the Behring Works I cannot say. I would assume that such institutes, such as the Institute of Geheimrat Otto in Frankfurt, are here for the purpose of concerning themselves with such production without receiving a direct order to that effect.
For instance, there is a state directive regarding testing of typhus vaccines which was only given out in the year of 1942; that is to say, until that period of time such institutions who were naturally under some sort of general control could concern themselves with such vaccine questions as they thought fit to do. That is how I look at it. As I said, only from a certain period of time vaccine control was introduced. That was 1942 and I mean typhus vaccine control
Q. Well, who emphasized the typhus vaccine control? General, I get the picture that typhus was a very big problem in 1941, '42, '43. Vaccine was a very critical problem. Now, I should think it is rather elemental that there would have been one person or one agency which concerned itself with the production of typhus vaccine, who saw that it was produced, and who saw that it was collected to the proper places.
Now, I get some confused picture from you about two institutes of the OKH at Krakow and Lemberg under the jurisdiction of you in the Army. Then you know nothing about the Behring Works at Marburg and Lemberg; you know nothing about the Robert Koch Institute and their production, and of course, I need not ask you about the production at Buchenwald.
Now, didn't somebody know about these production matters? Now, you know, tell us. If you don't, say I don't know and we will go on. Was there no control agency which was charge --
A. I can only say that we were so busy with our own affairs that if you ask me that way, who was responsible for the civilian sector I can only say Conti, for that is the reason why we had a state secretary in the Reich Ministry of the Interior, and just as we consider the Wehrmacht as a state institution where the medical inspector was competent in his field, then Conti must have been competent in the civilian sector. That is the only way I can imag ine it -- no other way.
Q. General, were you relying on your institutes at Krakow and Lemberg to supply all the typhus vaccine for the Wehrmacht?
A. Now, for years --- and I only remind you of tetanus serum-
Q. I don't care anything about the tetanus serum now. You said you weren't relying simply on those two concerns.
Now, where else did you go to try to get vaccine production, typhus vaccine production?
A. Well, we received something from the Behring works. Probably Geheimrat Otto delivered something for the home territory as far as he produced them. It may be that the Robert Koch Institute delivered. These are the best known agencies. There were the Saechsische Serum Works. They are here in order to produce vaccines -
Q. Don't you know whether you got vaccines from then or not? You said there is a possibility. Now, you don't want this Tribunal to believe that the highest medical officer in the Wehrmacht didn't know where he was getting his vaccines, do you?
A. I just named these agencies from where the Wehrmacht may have received their vaccines - Behring Works, maybe the Robert Koch Institute - I cannot say that with certainty because I don't know its extent and its capacity of production, I don't think it was too large. Then the Institute for Experimental Therapy in Frankfurt on the Main, and we received our dysentery vaccine at the Hygiene Institute of the University of Berlin which was Professor Zeiss; in addition, at the Acid Works and at the Behring Works, and other vaccines came from the Saechsische Serum Works, and I don't think I forgot anything. These were the agencies which were obliged to deliver these things to the Wehrmacht, and that, in fact, did deliver.
Very well. Did you receive production reports from those concerns?
A. I didn't see them. By my office, the expert worker must have seen there or he must have made out the order and he must have carried on some cor respondence in order to see whether deliveries could be made to the needed extent. These weren't my affairs. For that purpose I had my collaborators and my experts.
A. Well now, it has taken us a rather long time to get here but the ?? is that you, or at least your office, very well knew exactly what the typhus production situation was, isn't that right?
A. Yes, in the Wehrmacht sector; probably in the civilian sector too.
Q. Now, what about the allocation of typhus vaccines? Did anybody con trol that?
A. It was at first from Krakow - at first Oberstabsarzt Eier. This was made by him for a short time; that is, when he received certain requests from certain parts of the front he allocated them according to the need. That, however, led to difficulties and then the Army Medical Inspectorate took over and I don't think I am wrong if I say that from the period of time of September, or rather, fall 1944, I took this authority away from the Army Medical Inspectorate and transferred it to the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Services. That's where we received reports about production and allocation. Until that period of time, that is, from 1942 up until 1944, the Army Medical Inspectorate was in charge of that work.
Q. Well, that was you in both instances. You were the Army Medical Inspectorate from '42 up until '44, and you were also Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service. Now, isn't it true that you or agencies under your control had the power to control the allocation of typhus vaccine in Germany?
A. What we allocated was mostly our own produced vaccine from Krakow and Lemberg. I think we probably received reports from the other offices, namely, what can be produced or what was ready, and then a comparison was made with the need and then it was allocated according to that need.
We didn't only have to care for the front army but also for the home army. I cannot give you any figures of typhus at home but sporadically such incidents occurred and that is why vaccinations had to be made, which perhaps extended to a large proportion. I cannot tell you that.
Q. General, I don't think you answered the question. I asked you if is not a fact that you or agencies under your control had complete authority and power over the allocation of typhus vaccines by whomever manufactured Robert Koch Institute, Institute of the OKH at Krakow, the Behring Works, anybody else-didn't you or one of your agencies have the power to allocate that typhus vaccine production? Yes or no.
A. No, no. You mustn't forget that we had nothing to do with the civilian sector and that the civilian sector did not only have to care for home but also for the eastern territories. Not the Wehrmacht was competent for that but the civilian sector, where they had a sufficient amount of leading health personnel in the eastern territories, in the Ukraine, in the south and in France, and that in itself excludes the possibility that the Wehrmacht was the agency which had to care or had to order anything about the entire allocation of vaccine production.