Q. Who was this Commissioner General you refer to?
A. The Commissioner General for the Medical and Health Service, Professor Brandt.
Q. Did Handloser's office ever receive any reports on medical experiment
A. I don't know about that? I only know about these copies that I mentioned yesterday.
Q. Then you would state that in the course of your official duties you never became aware of any medical experiments on human beings in concentration camps?
A. No, none at all.
Q. Doctor, if I understood you correctly, when Dr. Nelte was interrogation you in connection with your biographical data, weren't you first chief of the staff of the Medical Service to the Luftwaffe, that is, from the 1st of October 1944, until 1 September 1942, isn't that correct?
A. Your figures are not quite right, from the 1st of October 1941, until the 31 of August, 1942, I was Chief of the Staff with the Medical Inspector of the Luftwaffe.
Q. Who was Medical Inspector of the Luftwaffe at that time, doctor?
A. Generaloberstabsarzt Hippke.
Q. Now in your capacity as Chief of Staff to Hippke, I assume your duties were similar to these as Chief of Staff to Handloser in his capacity as Chief of the Medical Service of the Wehrmacht, in that anything that Hippke would have had knowledge of, you would have knowledge of, is that true?
A No, this isn't quite correct, Mr. Prosecutor. There was a great deal of difference in the cooperation between Generaloberarzt Hippke and Professor Handloser, whereas according to my knowledge he was always informed by Professor Handloser about his important decisions, no such information was given by Professor Hippke. He acted very independently and the work was made difficult since he did not inform his collaborators sufficiently.
Q Now, during the course of your duties as Chief of Staff to Hipke, were you ever cognizant of the fact that experimentation was being conducted on concentration carp inmates?
A No, never. Up to this trial I didn't know any such experiments were carried through.
Q You certainly must have known Dr. Rascher, a Luftwaffe doctor, didn't you?
A I didn't know Dr. Rasher, only from the newspapers did I hear his name once more.
Q You never met Dr. Rascher personally?
A Once I met him personally when I was reminded. We were then concerned about the preparation of a conference at the Secretary of State. I forgot the name.
Q Did you know Dr. Rascher, the defendant here in this case?
A Yes, I know Dr. Romberg from the newspaper before the War when he was a collaborator of Dr. Ruff.
Q You also know Dr. Weltz, I presume?
A Yes, I know Dr. Weltz too from the meetings.
Q Doctor, did you ever hear of the high attitude experiments?
A. You mean high altitude experiments with human beings in concentration camps?
Q Precisely.
A I haven't heard anything of these.
Q A few moments ago you mentioned that you met Dr. Rasher during the course of planning or preparing such a meeting at the Secretary of State's office; that is Secretary of State Milch, is it not?
A Yes, Secretary of State Milch.
Q Do you remember what day or exact date of this meeting between you and Rasher?
A I was reminded of the date by a question of defense counsel, but I really didn't know the date before, but I remember the incident once more.
Q Well, now, Doctor, what took place at that meeting?
A Well, the meeting should have taken place, and I shall picture the event as it was. That was in September 1942 With the 1st of September I was transferred to the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service. Since my successor had to be trained, and since at that time Generaloberarzt Hipke had to go on leave, I was periodically still active in the Luftwaffe Inspectorate. From this time I remember that I was suddenly called away from my work because of a telephone call. I don't know who called me. I was to report to the secretary of State for the purpose of a discussion. This discussion did not eminate from the Medical Inspectorate, but was ordered by the Secretary of State. I went there by car, that is from my agency to the Aviation Minisrty, and in the corridor before the Office of the Secretary of the State I met a few of my acquintances, and some people I didn't know, and among the people I know I think Dr. Romberg was present.
Q Dr. Rasher was there also?
A I wanted to say Dr. Romberg.
Q. Dr. Rasher and Dr. Romberg to other?
A No, I Don't know Dr. Rasher, I don't know. I asked what was this about, and I learned that a certain Dr. Rasher was to make a report. No further details were given to me. The beginning of that meeting was postponed since the State Secretary didn't appear when he was expected. Since I was taken out of my work, my double work, I became very inpatient and I asked Dr. Rasher, whom I hadn't known before, for the information of what this whole thing was about. Dr. Rasher refused to give me any information, and he said that he had a special order by the Secretary of State. Because of the fact a younger medical officer refused to give me that information I was very angry and left this group, and I said something of that nature, "if you have any secrets deal with them yourself. Upon that I returned to my office.
Q In the course of Rasher's report did you hear it mentioned that a film was to be shown?
A Yes, a film may have been mentioned.
Q Did you see that film, Doctor?
A I don't remember having seen the film, because I left before the entire thing started.
Q Was Dr. Benzinger there, is that a familiar name to you?
A Dr. Benzinger, oh, yes, I know him from aviation medicine.
Q Is the name D-o-r-i-n-g, During familiar to you?
A No, I don't know him.
Q Is the name Vorwald, V-o-r-w-a-l-d familiar to you?
A No, I don't know him.
Q Is the name Christensen familiar to you?
A Yes, I know the name.
Q Doctor, I want you to think, are you sure you didn't see that film in the RLM?
A I am quite sure, because up to this point I saw no films at all which were made in the concentration camps.
Q No, Doctor, I have here a document which I shall read to you; I don't have the German, for the benefit of the translators. This is Document, NO 224, which has been previously admitted into evidence as Prosecution Exhibit No. 76. his is a document signed by the defendant, Dr. Romberg. It is a report of the September 11th meeting in 1942, concerning a report which was to be submitted to the Secretary of State Milch on that date. I will read the report, Doctor. "On September 11, 1942--" Do you remember now, were you present while any film was being shown, Doctor? Do I have to dispense with reading the document?
A I ask you to read the document.
Q "On September 11, 1942 at 9:45 o'clock Stabsarzt Dr. Rasher and Dr. Romberg met, according to telephonic and oral agreements, with Col. Pendele, in the ante-chamber of the Secretary of State. We were informed that the Secretary of State had ordered this conference at the present stage, in the course of which a report on experiments concerning "rescue from great heights" was to be made, and the motion picture concerning these experiments was to be shown. The gentlemen waiting in the antechamber of the Secretary of State and in the corridor (most of them from the experimental staff) were informed that previous to the conference a motion picture was to be shown, so that all went to the motion picture room on the 5th floor. Here quite a large number of people were already present, so that 30 to 40 persons were there in all. Among them were - we know some of them personally - some officers, medical at engineer officers, whose presence surprized us in view of the top secret nature of the motion picture and of the experiments. No checking of the persons present was done, nor was there an attendance list.
As after a short time of waiting, the Secretary of State had not come the motion picture was shown, without giving us an opportunity for preliminary or explanatory remarks. During the intermission between the two parts of the motion picture, Dr. Rascher referred once more to the strict obligation of secrecy ordered by the Reichsfuehrer SS. After completion of the showing of the motion picture - the Secretary of State had not come, as he had been summoned to the Reich Marshal - the persons present still talked a little while about the motion picture, on which occasion loss interest was shown in the subject itself than in the place of the experiments and the individuals who had been experimented on. After this period of time, during which we were neither called upon to make any statements whatsoever, nor were we, considering the great forum and the absence of the Secretary of State, incluned to give any reports, the greatest part of these present went back to the development conference while Oberstarzt Wuerfler,--that is a familiar name, isn't it?--"Oberstarzt Prof. Kolk, Stabsarzt Bruehl and Government Councilor Benzinger asked us for a report in a small medical circle. As, however, the Secretary of State had prohibited any report previous to the fixing of distribution experiments. Oberstarzt Kolk stated that he was willing to report to the Secretary of State our wishes concerning the fixing of distribution and the continuation of the experiments. The motion picture film was handed to Colonel Vorwald.
"According to the conference with Obersturmbannfuehrer Sievers ---"
I don't think it is necessary to read any further. This is signed by Dr. Romberg. Now, Doctor, do you still say you didn't see this film in the RLM?
A I don't remember having seen it. What I stated before happened before that time.
Q Did you, as a matter of fact, after having seen that film join a circle with Dr. Benzinger and several others discussing the merits of the film?
A No. I left this group in anger, as I said before.
Q Despite this report here of Dr. Romberg you deny having seen the film, Doctor?
A I haven't seen the film.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Will counsel please identify himself for the record?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. NELTE: (Counsel for the Defendant Handloser.)
Q The prosecutor just said that just in the field of research by coordinating various research offices one could save mainly personnel; may I ask you as scientist is there a field where one could not save personnel by way of coordination and I mean the field of research?
A If something has to result from research, then research has to have freedom and one only has to exchange results.
Q In order to give you an example, for instance, if five persons are carring on research work about a very important problem, then you Think that it was the expedient task of the leader of such a research system to have one research worker, in place of these five, who would work on this problem himself?
A The leader could only do that when convinced that the four others are not qualified. Since research workers always think they are the best, it would probably be very difficult to declare objectively who the best one is.
Q The second question, the Prosecutor believes that Professor Handloser, since he was army inspector, had two offices; the so-called Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service and Army Medical Inspectorate in order to deal with his tasks. Is it correct that everyone of the agencies had their own circle of tasks?
A That is correct.
Q Is it correct that even if there was the combination of one person doing two jobs, as it was the case here, that the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service could make use of the personnel, material, etc., of the Army Medical Inspectorate for the tasks of the Wehrmacht Medical Service?
A Both of these activities had to be differentiated.
Q Where there independent chiefs of staff for both of these agencies?
A Yes, naturally.
Q Did not these chiefs of staff see to it that the interests of the two agencies were divided from one another?
A Yes, they saw that a very clear division was made and the tendency of both up to a certain point were contrary to each agency.
Q Yes, you said that yesterday. Am I Correct if I say there was even tension between these two agencies working in the same building?
A Yes you can call them official tensions even if they did not have any personal effect.
Q Now, at the end, I should like to ask you with reference to Mr. Hardy's question; is it true that you went to the meeting at the Aviation Ministry in your capacity as Chief of Staff of Medical Service of the Air Force?
A Yes, that is where the tension was on power and authority; as I was not the chief any longer.
Q But, you were still practically the chief and you were not yet working with Professor Handloser since he only came from the Ukraine at the end of September in order to start his office; is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct, as for as the person of Professor Handloser is concerned; but I partly already worked at the new office.
Q. For the purpose of training-
A. I also had to train my collaborators and successors.
Q. Did you inform Professor Handloser about this matter of the Aviation Ministry?
A. No, certainly not - not at all. This was just a matter which came up suddenly and then disappeared.
BY DR. KRAUSS: (Counsel for the Defendant Rostock.)
Q. Witness, you stated that the individual Wehrmacht branches received copies of the research assignments, which they had delivered, or rather sent them to the chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service and that the original of these research assignments was sent to the Department of Science and Research. Witness, I am now asking you is it not a fact that the original of any research assignments went to the research worker concerned and that the Department of Science and Research only received a copy of these assignments; how is it that you have a different knowledge than that?
A. I must correct my statements that I made before; what you say is correct the original was certainly sent to the man concerned, the man to whom the work was assigned; this means that the department itself received a copy and we received another.
A. Thank you, I have no further questions.
BY DR. MARX: (Counsel for the Defendant Dr. Becker-Freysing.)
Q. Witness, you stated before that during a certain period of time you were Chief of Staff with the Medical Inspector of the Air Force, that was from the first of October, 1941 until the 31st of August in 1942; I will now ask you who was directly subordinate to you in your position?
A. There were two department chiefs; one chief of the Medical Inspectorate Generalarzt Marzius, an the chief of the Organizational Department, Generalstabsarzt Liebermann and then there was an independant group of pharmacists, there was a domestic group and a registration group and I think that is all.
Q. What position did the Defendant Dr. Becker-Freysing hold at that time with the Inspector of the Air Force.
A. Dr. Becker-Freysing was the advisory counsel for aviation medicine.
Q. And who was the real departmental expert for aviation medicine?
A. I think it was Stabsarzt Professor Antoni that was with the Medical Department.
Q. I now come back to this conference of 11 September, 1942; did you speak to Dr. Becker-Freysing about this affair?
A. No, certainly not, since any information was refused to me, I had nothing that I could speak to him about.
Q. You say that you know nothing about high altitude experiments, which were carried out by Dr. Rascher and Dr. Romberg?
A. No, I had no knowledge of that at all.
Q. Didn't Professor Hippke tell you anything about that?
A. No, Professor Hippke told me nothing about it.
Q. Did Dr. Becker-Freysing, in his capacity as advisory counsel for Aviation Medicine, send you any letters for decision or signature, or did he present any reports to you about the execution of any such experiments in Dachau?
A. The question is already answered by my previous answer to your last question, but I will repeat that I never received such reports and such matter were never presented to me by Dr. Becker-Freysing.
Q. Yes, witness, that is correct, but it could be possible that you heard something by way of a report or lecture?
A. No, that is not correct.
Q. Did anything become known to you about cold experiments, which were carried out by Dr. Rascher and Professor Holzloehner in the concentration camp at Dachau?
A. No, I know nothing about that.
Q. But you were present during that meeting in 1942; were you not, in Nurnberg?
A. No, I was not.
Q You were only present during this meeting of the consulting physicians?
A But that occurred much later.
Q But I mean this meeting in Nurnberg. Were you present?
A No, I was not.
Q Did you speak to Hippke about this question regarding Holzloehner and Rascher, or did Hippke speak to you?
A No, never.
Q Was the name of Rascher ever mentioned between you and your chief after September, 1942?
A I am just telling you that at first the name was unknown to me. It was not mentioned after that, and, I forget about it entirely until I was asked about it again, and only by reading the press it came back to my memory very slowly.
Q So this was really a very unimportant affair for you?
A Yes.
DR. MARX: Thank you. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further examination of this witness?
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions to put to this witness, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness Paul Wuerfler may be excused, there being no further examination of this witness.
Does counsel for defendant Handloser desire that Dr. Bernhard Schmidt be called as a witness?
The marshal will bring in Bernhard Schmidt, a witness for defendant Handloser.
BERNHARD SCHMIDT, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE SIEBRING: Raise your right hand and be sworn, repeating after me I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withheld and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE SIEBRING: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. NELTE (Counsel for Defendant Handloser):
Q Witness, would you please state your first and surname?
A Dr. Bernhard Schmidt.
Q Would you please pause between my question and your answer and try to speak slowly so as to enable the interpreters to keep up. Where were you born and when?
A I was born an the 20th of May, 1906, in Magdeburg.
Q Would you please describe your educational career very shortly?
A I first went to elementary school in Berlin. Then from 1913 to 1925 I was in Mainz. I was educated at the secondary school there. I made my matriculation in 1925 in Mainz. Then I studied medicine and natural history in Giessen, Kreishaltung in Munich. I made my state examination in medicine in the year 1932 in Munich. Afterwards I made my doctor examination and then in 1928 I entered the Reichswehr at that time as a student. I had more medical education in the army hospital in Stettin in 1932. That was up until 1934. From 1934 to 1936 I went to Kuestrin. In 1936, that is from 1936 to 1939, I received education as a hygienist at the University of Goettingen. In the meantime I was detailed for half a year to Japan and China as medical officer. In 1939 I was a hygienist at Muenster, Westphalia. From the beginning of the war I was assigned as an army hygienist. That was from 1939 to 1940. In 1940 I was shortly assigned to the army physician for about eight weeks as a hygienist. From 1940 to 1944 I became a hygienist of the Army Medical Inspectorate at Berlin, and from the fall of 1944 I was assigned to the front as hygienist and consulting hygienist. I was assigned to the Balkans for a short period of time. From December, 1944, I was imprisoned by the Americans. As a prisoner-of-war I was for one year the chief of a general hospital for German P.W.'s in France, and at the end of March I was released from prisoner-of-war activity. Since October of last year I was active at the University of Frankfurt as departmental chief with university and was nominated as a lecturer.
Q Then you were within the sphere of office of Professor Handloser from 1940 to 1944?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q What positions did you held in the Amy Medical Inspectorate?
A I was a hygienist in the Army Medical Inspectorate and group lead in the department of Science and Health Guidance.
Q What was your department?
A I represented the department of hygiene.
Q Would you please picture to the Tribunal your sphere of work as a hygienist in that department.
A I had to deal with all questions which referred to the sphere of hygiene. For instance, nourishment, housing, hygiene accommodations, clothing combat of epidemics; then the equipment of the bacteriological testing station scientific questions in the sphere of bacteriology and serology. I did not have to deal with questions of troop medicine and prisoner-of-war medicine, for which there were special departments.
Q What was the relationship of your department to the institutes of the Army and the other Wehrmacht branches?
A We had a few institutes of the army with which we were in connection. For instance, the Military Medical Academy, the Institute for Typhus and Virus Research in Cracow, then the Army Mountain Troop School in St. Johann.
Q Was there any official relationship to institutes of the SS and Waffen SS?
A No.
Q Did you know the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS?
A I knew that such an institute existed, but I did not know it.
Q You mean you had no direct official connections to that institution. But you know Professor Mrugowsky?
A Yes.
Q When and at what occasion was there any contact between Professor Mrugowsky and your agency?
AA number of SS formations were subordinated to the army at the front, and therefore questions arose occasionally which concerned these formations which were subordinated to the army, that is, a question of nourishment, combat of epidemics, housing, etc. These were the same questions which concerned us, too, and that was only concerned with units of the SS subordinate to the army.
Q Do you know the Institute for Military Science with the Ahnenerbe?
A No, I don't even know thee name.
Q Do you know the Institute for Virus and Typhus Research at Buchenwald?
A No, I don't know that any such institute existed.
Q Now what was the situation regarding the question of typhus-typhus which played a particular part in the combat of epidemics? That is one of the concerns that you had. Do you know from the end of 1941 anything which deals with conferences regarding the typhus questions, or did you yourself deal with such conferences?
AAround that time we generally had great concern regarding the vaccine production. We had our own institute, the Typhus Institute at Cracow, which was producing vaccines for us. But in addition, we had to furnish vaccines to other Wehrmacht branches. We received only relatively small amounts of vaccines from industry, and that was the Bearing Works at Marburg. We received some from the state institute for experimental therapy at Frankfurton-the-Main, but these amounts were not large enough to suffice for all branches of the Wehrmacht. Therefore we were discussing increase of production on frequent occasions.
We only used vaccines which were known to us to be effective. In spite of the emergency situation, we rejected a vaccine which was not recognized to be sufficiently effective on the basis of a state investigation. There was one vaccine which came from the Behring Works.
Q. What was the substance of this vaccine?
A. It was a chicken-egg vaccine. Another procedure was carried out and the entire embryo was used. Because of the use of the entire embryo, there is a larger amount of vaccine available. If his vaccine had been valid, we would have brought about an increased production. Unfortunately, that was not the case.
Q. Do I understand you correctly when you say the Behring Works at Marburg had sent typhus vaccine from chicken eggs to the Army?
A. Yes.
Q. In this case you refused the offer of delivery because the typhus vaccine was not effective?
A. No, not sufficiently effective.
Q. How did you find that out?
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, it is now 11 o'clock. The Tribunal will be in recess for a short time.
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal Number 1 is in recess for fifteen minute.
(A short recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session. May it please Your Honor, the defendant Rudolf Brandt, having been excused by the Tribunal, is absent for the balance of the day.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the absence of the defendant Rudolf Brandt, pursuant to excuse in order that he may testify before Tribunal 2. The counsel may proceed.
BY DR. SCHMIDT:
Q. Witness, before the recess you said that the typhus danger at the end of 1941 led to the consideration of increasing the production of typhus vaccine. Do you know what Professor Handloser, as Army Medical Inspector, did at this time on this matter?
A. Yes, Professor Handloser said that industry should produce more vaccine. He wanted to incite industry to produce more.
Q. Was this the industry which was already producing typhus vaccine?
A. First it was the industry which was already producing vaccine, and in addition other factories, if possible, were to produce vaccine.
Q. Do you know whether this attitude of Professor Handloser resulted in anything concrete?
A. Yes. The Behring Works had the intention of establishing a new factory in Lwov and they approached the Army, Professor Handloser, for that purpose and wanted to have the Polish Professor Weigl placed at their disposal, who was a specialist on the production of vaccine from lice.
Q. Now, was a factory built by the Behring Works?
A. A new production factory was built in Lwov.
Q. Did this factory have any official connection with the Army Medical Inspectorate?
A. No, it was purely an industrial works. It was not under the Army Medical Inspectorate and it did not have any connections with it.
Q. Did this institute later deliver to the army?
A. I do not know exactly. They were probably only small quantities. As far as I know this factory was essentially to supply the civilian sector.
Q. Was there any other connection that Lwov Institute produced typhus vaccines mentioned, and the name Dr. Haas?
Do you know Dr. Haas?
A. I do not know him personally but I know that he worked at this institute of the Behring Works in Lwov.
Q. Then this institute and Dr. Haas had no relationship to the Army Medical Inspectorate?
A. No relations, no.
Q. Shipments of lice from Lwov have been mentioned here to the Concentration Camp Buchenwald. The prosecution expressed the suspicion that these shipments of lice could have come from the institute of OKH in Cracow. Do you know anything about that?
A. No, if that had been the case I certainly would have learned of it. The Institute would have had to ask the Medical Inspector for approvals.
Q. Do you consider that from the institute in which Professor Eyer worked, that he sent this on his own initiative? Do you consider that possible.
A. That would have been quite impossible.
Q. Now again, back to the question of the vaccine situation at the end of 1941, do you know whether at this time discussions between the various agencies, the various interested agencies took place?
A. At the end of 1941 there were talks, discussions about the vaccine situation.
Q. I have here a document, No. 1315, Exhibit No. 454. It was submitted by the Prosecution yesterday in cross examination of Handloser. I will have this document shown to you ask you when you have looked at it to answer a few questions. Did you know that this discussion took place?
A. Yes, Dr. Scholz told me about it. I myself did not participate in the discussion since I was on leave.
Q. Where was Dr. Scholz?
A. Dr. Scholz was one of the gentlemen of my group and in this case he represented me.
Q. That is if you had not been on leave you would have been there?
A. Yes, I would have been there.
Q. Now will you please look at "B" on page 2? Will you please read it? I do not have a copy here. Will you read it aloud under section "B"?
A. The vaccine now produced by the Behring Works, which is produced from chicken eggs, is to be tested for its effectiveness. For that purpose Dr. Domnitz will get in touch with the SS Ober sturmbannfuehrer, Dr. Mrugowsky."
Q. Who was Dr. Domnitz?
A. Dr. Domnitz was a man from the Behring Works in Marburg. As far as I know he was in charge of production.
Q. If you had been shown this file note earlier, would you have noticed anything in this point "B'?
A. No.
Q. What would you have thought it meant, that Dr. Domnitz was to get in touch with Dr. Mrugowsky about an experiment?
A. Dr. Mrugowsky had a hygiene institute and apparently this Behring vaccine was to be tested in this institute.
Q. Was that anything that would have astonished you?
A. No, one can conduct a test at any hygiene institute.
Q. Don't you think that this could have given rise to any suspiciion that these might have been experiments on human beings?
A. No, not at all.
Q. Will you please see whether the letter which you have there is marked "secret?"
A. No, it is an open letter, and if any such suspicion had arisen the letter would certainly have been marked secret.
Q. Would you, therefore, consider it impossible for any one who knows nothing at all about Buchenwald, for him to met the idea that there might have been some connection with Buchenwald there?
A. That is quite impossible. There is no reason for any suspicion.
A. Now I must ask you something else about this document. You see it is a discussion in which apparently important people took part, Professor Gildemeister, and Hudicke, and in any case not, I may say, little people, more or less important people, now do you consider it likely that on the same day in which this discussion took place in the Reich Ministry of the Interior that there was already or still a discussion on the same question at which Professor Handloser, Professor Reiter, State Secretary Conti, and so forth and so forth, important personalities participated?