This list was drawn up about three weeks to the report. Now in this list, the fields considered important are listed on the right, and on the left are given the institutes in which work was being done in these fields. Did you prepare this list?
A I cannot remember any such list. I would have to see it.
Q Here we are interested only in determining whether the individual fields were discussed at the meeting itself or whether this list was ***** up afterwards, and the fields designated as important were taken out and the card index entries were used. You yourself cannot remember having prepared the list?
A No, I did not prepare this list.
Q Is it possible that you were absent at that time and that another assistant or a secretary drew up the list?
A That is possible. In any case, I myself did not prepare the list I would be grateful if I might see the original. Perhaps I can tell from some indication who prepared the list.
DR. PRIBILLA: Mr. President, I do not know whether it is important enough or if the Court would like to show the witness the original so that he can examine it.
THE PRESIDENT: If the original is available it may be shown to the witness.
(Witness is shown the original document.)
BY DR. PRIBILLA:
Q Witness, please look at the original and tell us whether you can say for certain who prepared this list.
A No, I cannot see anything new from this. I see only from the subjects which are listed that they came from these groups which were designated as "urgent" or as "essential."
Q An these notes at the bottom of the first page -- do they refer to things in your office, or do you have the impression that they were added later by the Reich Research Council to whom this list was sent?
A They are apparently some notes put on by the office which receives the letter.
Q Do you know Circular No. 5?
A No. We did not issue any circulars on research matters.
Q Thank you. Will you please return the original?
(Document is returned.)
Witness, do you know what position Professor Rostock had in connection with the Reich Research Council?
A No, I do not know that exactly. I heard from Professor Rostock once, in conversation, I believe it was the end of 1944, that he became deputy in the board of directors of the Reich Research Council.
Q Could Professor Rostock, in the Reich Research Council, have any responsible activity in issuing research assignments which the Reich Research Council issued?
A I am not informed in detail about authority within the Reich Research Council. I can only speak of the work under Professor Rostock, I never saw any letter in which he made any decisions for the Reich Research Council. On the other hand, I remember a letter from Professor Rostock to the Reich Research Council in which he made suggestions for working on subjects in the field of tissue cultures, which interested Professor Rostock particularly. If Professor Rostock had himself had the opportunity of issue research assignments for the Reich Research Council, he would have been already to do so directly.
Q Yes, I understand. Witness, I shall show you a chart, which Document 1, Exhibit 1, in the Rostock case. It shows the activity of Professor Rostock. Can you confirm, from your own knowledge, whether that is an approximately correct distribution of his activity?
A This concerns the years 1939 to 1945. I can speak only of the t** when I worked with Professor Rostock, from December 1943 until Professor Rostock moved to Liebenstein, at the end of February or beginning of March 1945. For this time the distribution shown by this chart is correct. During the time when Professor Rostock was at Beelitz a considerable part of his activity was always his work for the clinic and his scientific work. I can testify about this because we assistants were always used by him in his scientific work.
Q Witness, what activity did Professor Rostock always consider him most important--his main activity?
A Professor Rostock was Generalarzt of the reserve but he did any value on being called Generalarzt. In the office, not only the assistant but everyone generally, called him Professor. He always placed the greatest value on his position as a university professor.
Q What was the relationship of Professor Rostock to his associates and his patients?
A The basic characteristic of Professor Rostock is a very extensive general respect for other persons. As assistants of the head of our clinic.
A Stabsarzt and a Genaralarzt, we always were especially gratified he had this respect for our, I might say, civilian personality, and always emphasized it. The notes which he put on the letters did not take the for of orders as "take care of this" but they usually said "please see whether there is a research assignment." And he did not say "tomorrow morning at you will drive with me to Berlin" but he said "Mr. Christensen, would you good enough to go to Berlin with me tomorrow morning?" Those are, perhaps only external matters which hardly deserve to be mentioned, but they do characterize Professor Rostock. He was not merely a military superior -emphasized the human contacts. From the work in the clinic I know the patients' attitude toward Professor Rostock. He was not the superior scientist and big clinic chief who just rushed past the patients, but they themselves emphasized how pleasant it was that he was not only a doctor and a good surgeon but was interested in them as human beings. Especially in the time of frequent air raids on Berlin, we saw Professor Rostock's care for his patients. Night after night he slept at the clinic in order to direct the removal of the patients to the air raid shelters if there was an alarm, and he also took charge when fires broke out in the clinic, as frequently happened.
Q He took charge of putting the fires out, you mean?
A Yes.
Q Did you know Professor Rostock personally through your work, -did you know him very well?
A Yes, of course we had personal contacts with Professor Rostock.
Q Then at the end will you please tell me what your impression of him as a doctor and a human being, whether you consider it possible, in view of your knowledge of his personality, and his work, that he had any connection with criminal experiments on human beings?
A I knew Professor Rostock only as an outstanding scientist and a good doctor. I knew him personally as a decent, clean, character. I can imagine Professor Rostock having any connection with anything of a criminal nature. Whoever knows Professor Rostock personally and knows how humane his feelings were, above all how soft-hearted he is, cannot imagine that he would take any such spiritual burden upon himself.
Q Thank you. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any cross-examination of this witness as far as any defense counsel are concerned?
(No response.) There being none the prosecution may examine.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q Witness, you are familiar with the activities of Professor Rostock in his capacity as Chief of the Office of Medical Science and Research under the defendant Brandt; what is the basic purpose of this Office of Medical Science and Research?
AAs I said before one cannot give any clearly defined set of duties. What seemed to me essential when I worked under Professor Rostock was the Medical Advisory physician in various practical questions in medical science and research.
Q Then you are not of the opinion that this office was set up to coordinate scientific research?
AAccording to what professor Rostock told us assistants at the beginning, he wanted to coordinate the various research interests, as I said before. The fact that Professor Rostock began the work so late in effect did not permit this to be done.
Q Well, now, you have stated the purpose of this card index file was to orient Professor Rostock in the various research assignments, such orientation being necessary I presume in order that he could more capably coordinate the various research assignments; is that true?
A Yes, Professor Rostock wanted to get insight into the work going on -
THE PRESIDENT: The transmission system is not working. We will be suspended for a moment until it is in order.
Proceed.
Q Now, my question, witness, was the purpose of this card index file so that Rostock could more capably coordinate these research problems, is that true?
A Yes. This card index was set up in the summer of 1944, because Professor Rostock was confronted with various questions connected with research assignments.
For example, University Professors approached him and asked him for support in maintaining their own research work and on the basis of this card index he was able to see whether he could consider this work especially important, or whether similar work was net being done somewhere else.
Q So then it was his job to avoid duplication of scientific work, wasn't it?
A Yes, I assume that originally avoiding duplication was planned, but on the other hand I know from what Professor Rostock told us that he was completely opposed to interference in the work of a research worker. He told us assistants repeatedly that the supreme principle always had to be that any research work could to carried out freely. I do not believe, therefore, that he had the intention of interferring in anyway in the research work being carried on, but he told us and as we had the impression, he rather had the intention of preserving as much as possible of the research being conducted, especially basic research in the civilian sector, in which he was especially interested, and which he considered especially important as a University Professor.
Q Well, now naturally his task was to avoid duplication of scientific work in the coordination of his medical research problems, then this was within the sphere of the Fuehrer's Decree, which gave Karl Brandt the authority to establish the office of Science and Medical Research, wasn't it?
A Yes. I do not know how the assignment read which was given to Professor Rostock. I can only say what we could know from our practical work as assistants.
Q Well, now, you have stated on direct examination that these index files contained some 650 assignments; if it merely contained the data that would not fully describe how this research work was being carried out, how could. Rostock avoid duplication of scientific work without knowing precisely what the particular scientist was doing?
A That shows that Professor Restock, by no means intended to intervene in such cases of duplication. He merely wanted to get orientation on the research work being conducted to be more or less informed on what was being done by the individual people. The subject given does show whether in the field of war research, for example, 50 or only 5 people are workings
Q Well, would you turn to that document you have in front of you, which is NO 692, which has been offered for identification as Prosecution Exhibit No. 457. The list you have in front of you, Witness, this particular list, the subject: "The list of Medical Institutes working on Problems of Research which were Designated as Urgent by the Discussion on Research on 26 August 1944 in Belitz." The last sentence in parenthesis states, "Summary in connection with the 650 Orders on Research Submitted to Us." Does that convey that the purpose of Dr. Rostock requesting reports on those various assignments was merely for orientation purposes?
A Originally Professor Rostock had the card index set up only for his information. I can remember very well how that happened, a very simple practical incident. Later more and more restrictions were necessary, and in this way there were discussions between the heads of the individual research Departments and Professor Rostock, using the card index which he already had.
Q Now, as I understand it there were 18 fields of research of the utmost importance, that is considered urgent, and Professor Rostock had received 650 orders for research in order to determine their urgency, and of these 650 orders he only selected as urgent those which fell into any one of the particular 18 different fields. This document lists the institutions, the work they are doing and sets up priority ratings; now the Reich Research Council has received this list; what did the recepient do with it, what was the purpose of it -- did they just read it and say "interesting?"
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, I don't think so, but I do not know for what purpose the Reich Research Council received this list. I do not know what connection the Reich Research Council had with the Institutions listed here whether they were directly under its orders or whether it was merely to be informed.
I do not know whether such a list was not sent to each participant in the discussion, including the Reich Research Council.
Q Then the priority rating set up here could not be filed in your opinion, that is Professor Rostock here has selected 45 different assignments out of 650 as urgent to have priority; do you mean to tell me that the list signed by Professor Rostock has no effect whatsoever upon the recipient? He could very well have omitted a very important assignment and the recipient would never have had knowledge of the assignment, hence this very important assignment on behalf of another institute wouldn't receive the priority orders, and therefore wouldn't get the personnel necessary, isn't that possible?
A The original of the subjects stated there is not to be understood to mean that Professor Rostock on the basis of the card index set up the subjects, they are the fields of work which at a joint discussion of the heads of all research organizations were designated as urgent. Professor Rostock did not assign a priority to the individual fields of work. At this discussion the individual heads of the Research Groups designated individual fields as urgent. Then at the end Professor Rostock summed it up and said that the following 18 or 20 points of research are considered especially urgent today. This research had all been going on for sometime, and it was merely to ascertain what was to be continued to be considered essential. I do not know whether on the basis of this list anything was done, any steps were taken. It was fully planned that the institutions listed here were to got special protection and were not to suffer from the intended closing of research institutes which had been planned for the civilian sector.
Q Now, Doctor, did you ever receive reports on special research assignments, that is during the time you were in Rostock's office?
A I mentioned the Reich office for Economic Extension. This office dealt with work in the pharmaceutical field. I know only the part of the work which effected medical matters. It had to be decide from the point of view of production, which drugs and which medical instruments were to be continued to be produced. The Reichs Office then approved Professor Rostock, I was present at the first discussion where the request was personally presented to Professor Rostock and he was asked to comment on it from the medical point of view, since they could do so only from the point of view of production. For this Reichs Office for Economy Extension, which issued the assignments essential to the pharmaceutical industries, we repeatedly received reports on the research already done as to whether there were any immediate results or if no progress had been made in that field for some time. These reports were given so that we could see and advise whether it was important to continue this work. As far as I know there was no doctor in the Reichs Office for Economic Extension. Of the other research assignments, we received notices only occasionally--that is in detail. For example, if Professor Rostock was particularly interested in these things, I remember for example work on the seeing prothesis, current research on penicillin, etc. and in these fields to be informed what had been done in these matters. For example, I would say in the case of seeing prothesis, that we had no idea of what that meant and it was the same with Professor Rostock. He asked the institute in Freiburg on the question which was being worked on and he asked what it meant, then we received information on it.
Q By that you mean Professor Rostock could also have asked the institute at Strassburg under Professor Haagen or Hirt, could he not in his position as chief of the Reich Medical Research Office at the Reichs Chancellery.
A Yes, of course Professor Rostock could have asked the Institute in Strassburg too. I don't believe he did so because it was not in his field and it did not interest him.
Q I have just a few more questions to put to you and if you are brief, we can finish today.
Could you examine Top Military Secret Mail?
A Yes.
Q Could all of the rest of the assistants in Rostock's office and you say there were five, could they examine Top Military Secret Mail?
A Yes, depending on what field of work it was. I said before that all members of the office including the secretary worked on all the secret matters, as well as the rest of the mail. As far as they were civilians, they had to sign some sort of a pledge of complete secrecy in the customary way. We medical officers were bound through duty to keep secrecy, nevertheless we signed this paper again.
Q Were these matters of a Top Secret nature, which had been sent to Rostock, available to anyone of his assistants; is that true?
A Yes, as far as it concerned the field of this particular person and it was given to him to work on.
Q Was the Fuehrer order concerning secrecy; was it displayed in Rostock's office on the bulletin board or some such place?
A No, not in our office, but I know from my time in other military service that it was posted there.
Q Witness, were you a member of the Nazi party?
A Yes, I was.
Q When did you join?
A I joined in 1933.
Q Have you been through denazification proceedings yet?
A Yes, I have not been before a committee yet, but I turned in my questionnaire sometime ago.
Q Were you a member of any other party organizations, such as the SS, the SA, National Physician's Union or any such thing as that?
A No, I did not belong to any single organization.
Q I have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any further questions to be propounded to the witness? If not, the witness will be excused.
The Tribunal will now recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned at 1625 hours.)
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 25 February 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court Room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 1.
Military Tribunal 1 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain that the defendants are all present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, the Defendant Oberheuser is absent due to continued illness; all other defendants are present in court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court with the exception of the Defendant Oberheuser who is absent on account of illness in accordance with a doctor's certificate which has been filed with the Tribunal and which the Secretary-General will note for the record.
Counsel may proceed.
DR. PRIBILLA (Counsel for the Defendant Rostock): Mr. President, with the permission of the Tribunal. I should like to call the witness Maria Karlstetter to the stand.
MARIA KARLSTETTER? a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q Will you repeat this oath after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withheld and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY DR. PRIBILLA:
Q Witness, please tell the Tribunal your name.
A Maria Karlstetter.
Q When and where were you born?
A On the 30th of July 1912 in Reitmuehle.
Q You were the first secretary of Professor Rostock?
A Yes
Q In which of his capacities were you his first secretary?
A I was secretary for the Office of Science and Research.
Q When did you take this position and how long did you work in that capacity?
A I took the position at the beginning of May 1944, and in the middle of February 1945 I left.
Q Had you worked in medical matters earlier?
A Yes, I had worked for more than six years at the Surgical University clinic in Munich as medical secretary.
Q Then you are acquainted with all questions connected with medical matters?
A Yes.
Q What were your duties as first secretary of Professor Rostock in the Office for science and Research?
A I had to open the incoming mail and go through it to get the necessary papers out of the files, then I passed the mail on to Professor Rostock and he distributed it to the individual assistants. I was also in charge of registering all incoming and outgoing mail. I had to put a corresponding notation on and my colleague who had to arrange it could see from this notation what the contents were. I also took dictation.
Q The witness Christensen yesterday testified that he worked on internal medicine and hygiene and received only the mail referring to these fields. The difference with you then is that in your case you saw all the mail, the incoming as well as the outgoing mail?
A Yes, all the mail went through my hands. Professor Rostock wanted this and in a conference he asked the secretaries and assistants to give all letters and carbon copies to me so that all the correspondence would be in the hands of one person.
Q, So that everything would be in the hands of one person, that is, in your hands?
A Yes.
Q Then, in your work did you have to take note of the contents of the correspondence?
A Yes, I had to take note of the contents because I could see only from the contents what it was about, and because I had to know the contents in order to know where to file the individual letters. Professor Rostock wanted me to know the contents because he relied on my memory.
Q Do your statements also refer to tho secret mail?
A Yes.
Q Now, in the correspondence which went through your hands did you ever find any indication that any agency in Germany was conduction experiment on living human beings?
A No, neither in the research card index, nor in the reports of other agencies used in setting it up, was there over any information which could have led one to conclude that such experiments were conducted; and not in the rest of the correspondence either. I can say this certainly because it is something that I would have noticed and which I would not have forgotten.
Q In the course of your activities did you encounter any other circumstances which could indicate such illegal human experiments or which could indicate that Professor Rostock know anything about it?
A No, I never heard of such experiments, not from conversations either of the assistants among each other. They often discussed various official matters and they would certainly discussed it if they had know anything about it, and I never encountered anything that would have indicated that Professor Rostock was informed about such experiments.
Q. Did you activities also extend to the card index?
A. Yes.
Q. And does what you have said apply to that also?
A. Yes.
Q. You worked on this too?
A. Yes, I worked on the research card, index too; I worked on the research card index. I wrote the cards according to the reports, in the form of lists, which we received from various sources. I copied these lists in the card index, after Dr. Christensen had ordered them, according to their contents, according to the field.
Q. Then you had to see the material on which this card index was ba**
A. Yes; I had to know this material too.
Q. What indications did these cards and the material on which they were based contain?
A. The name of the research worker, the subject of the scientific works in some cases the value of the assignment, and sometimes a priority rating.
Q. Did they contain any indication about the manner in which the experiments were carried out?
A. No, we had no information about the manner of execution of the experiments. I recall these lists very well. There was never any information given about experiments.
Q. Did the reports of other agencies, on which the card index was based, show that experiments were conducted in concentration camps or on concentration camp inmates?
A. No, the correspondence on which the card index was based did not indicate anything that would have led one to conclude that such exp experiments were conducted. No concentration camp or prisoner was ever mentioned. *** is true of all the other correspondence too in the Office of Science and Research.
Q. Do you believe, then, that it could be proved to the Tribunal if card index were here?
A. Yes, that would no doubt be the simplest thing and the best thing to have the card index here. It would show quite clearly that no illegal experiments on human beings are recorded in it.
Q. Now, witness, you said that you saw all the secret mail, that it went through your hands.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know the so-called Secrecy Decree, which said that absolute silence was to be maintained about secret matters?
A. Yes, I know that.
Q. Was that also in effect within the circle of associates of Prof Rostock? Or did they exchange opinions, did they discuss the thing?
A. No. Among the employees of the agency, this secrecy order did I apply; it only applied to people outside the Rostock agency.
Q What people do you mean when you say people within Rostock's agency.
A. I mean the assistants and secretaries of professor Rostock in the Office for Science and Research.
Q. Was it called to your attention especially, and was this obligation to secrecy in effect as to Professor Brandt's office, for example?
A. Yes, there it was in effect.
Q. Was it kept in effect between the agencies of Rostock and Brandt?
A. Yes, it was kept very carefully.
Q. Did you ever sec correspondence or reports on defense measures against chemical warfare agents in your office?
A. No, in Rostock's office there was no such correspondence.
Q. Do you know of any correspondence with Professor Rostock on behalf of the Reich Research Council -- not with the Rich Research Council, but for the Reich Research Council?
A. No. I am sure there was no correspondence for the Reich Research Council. We would have had to use the letter-heads of the Reich Research Council for that purpose; we did not have any.
Q. Was the correspondence of Rostock with the Reich Research Council from your office, very extensive or not?
A. No. The correspondence with the Reich Research Council was not extensive at all.
Q. There was no other clerical worker in the office who could have done such work without your knowledge? All these things went through your hand.
A. No, anyone who took care of matters concerned with the Reich Research Council alone did not exist.
Q. You know Professor Rostock because you worked with him. From your knowledge of his personality, do you believe that he would have, in any for approved unethical human experiments or even know about them?
A. I know Professor Rostock as a very kind person. I cannot imagine that he had any connection with such experiments.
Q. Witness, did you belong to the National Socialist Party?
A. No.
Q. Did Professor Rostock, in his official and unofficial conversation ever speak to you or the other personnel in a propagandistic way for National Socialism?
A. No; Professor Restock never did that. The tone in the whole office was at a level which was quite non-political, and the same tone that I had been used to from my former work in the clinic. I never saw Professor Rostock speaking for National Socialism in a propagandistic sense.
DR. FRIBILLA: Thank you.
I have no further questions for this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any defense counsel desire to cross-examine this witness?
(No response)
There being no cross-examination of the witness by the defense council the prosecution may cross-examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Witness, you have stated that all mail, incoming mail, went through your hands, and after opening the mail you passed the mail on to Rostock himself for distribution.
Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Then after Rostock received the mail, if it was of interest to so** of his assistants he passed it on to them himself?
A. Yes, then Professor Rostock distributed the mail.
Q. Now, witness, you state that you handled all secret mail. Did you also handle the top military secret mail?
A. Top secret? No, we did not have any top secret mail. I cannot remember in detail, and I do not know the difference between "secret" and "top secret".
Q. Well, in what manner did you handle the secret or top secret mail when it come to the office in preference to ordinary mail?
A. The mail was not entered in the general registry -- the secret mail -- but the individual assistants lock it up in their desks. We did not make a difference between secret mail and very special secret mail.
Q. But in any event, all the secret mail went first to you and then Rostock for distribution; is that correct?
A. Yes.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any redirect examination of this witness by counsel for defendant Rostock? Is there any further examination of this witness?
DR. PRIBILLA: No, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may be excused.
(Witness excused)
DR. PRIBILLA: Mr. president, in conclusion, I have the rest of my documents to submit. First I should like to correct a small error, at mistake. In document Rostock 5, Exhibit 5. I had submitted the list of publications by Rostock from the middle of 1937 on. The document is at page 7 and 8 of the English document book. This is Exhibit 5, as the ind** shows. Unfortunately, on the two pages that follow, the number 4 is given at the top, at the right hand corner. I ask that be corrected to number 5.
