File mark 49 was the medical service, therefore, if any letter was sent to an outside agency and at the left, under the heading, it was marked file mark 49, then everybody immediately knew, without even looking at the letter, that this concerned a medical question and it was assigned to the agency which had to deal with it. Of course, there were sub-divisions under the individual numbers.
Also there was a file mark 55. This referred to all research, research in the field of animal epidemics or mechanics or aviation medical experiments, it did not make any difference. File mark 55 was the code name for research and it had the big advantage that the keeping of files was facilitated very much, because you had only to keep those numbers in mind. All special files were kept together properly and this system had been introduced in my agency by my predecessor. Everything connected with research, that is the administration of this file mark 55 in the department, was located with the department for aviation medicine. This was the result of the fact that 90% of all research assignments, which had accumulated with us, were assignments with regard to aviation medicine. The administration of the aviation medicine departments had for many years been in the hands of high school teachers, Professor Bach, Professor Ludwig, Professor Anthony. They had been charged with administering this title for the main reason that they had the over-most assignment and secondly, because owing to the war, many regulations had to be observed in caring for these assignments as there were the priority numbers, personnel questions and many other regulations. There were quite a few formalities and of course they were administered by departments which were frequently connected with these things, as there were other departments who only worked on these matters once or twice a year. For this reason all research assignments were dealt with by the Department for Aviation Medicine. Now when assignments in the field of hygiene had accumulated, then the scientific aspect of these assignments and everything connected with it, was worked on by the Department of Hygiene. The administration matters were handled by the Department for aviation medicine.
Now, I am again referring to what I have already stated about the title and the note on the draft, if a letter or any reference had been needed from our agency because of an assignment, then we would have looked at the draft and on the draft we could have seen who had worked on the matt Then we would never have said that is aviation medicine and a certain person is responsible for it, then we would have seen that it was worked on in the Department of Hygiene.
Q Then, it was done in such a way that in order to summarize the answer, you would know that the physician who marked No. 55 referred to all research assignments?
A Yes.
Q And all research assignments were dealt with by the department for Aviation Medicine and they were worked on in that agency. According to all formal aspects, that is the work, the specialized work, was left to the competent reference mark.
We will now come back to the question with reference to Professor Haagen; do you think the field of Professor Haagen was far removed from the Department for Aviation Medicine and that the specialized work in this case was not done by Dr. Becker-Freyseng, but it was carried out by persons who were competent in that matter, Stabsarzt Atmer?
A Yes.
Q We will new come to the question of sea-water experiments. In the direct examination you have already answered these questions in detail and just for the purpose of clarification, I would like to repeat what I have deducted from the answers. I ask you now to confirm these questions. Did Dr. Becker-Freyseng tell you that first on the basis of the attitude of the technical office on the one hand, as well as on the basis of the attitudes of Professors Eppinger and Holpner that through internationally recognized scientists work on the other hand, that the experiments were necessary; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And in compliance with the requirement for carrying out the experi ments that these experiments were not dangerous?
A That is correct.
Q That the experiments were to be carried out in the form of proving experiments?
A Yes.
Q And if it should be impossible to carry out a proving experiment, only then concentration camp inmates were to be used?
A Yes.
Q The conditions for the experiments were to be the same in every case, regardless if they were with soldiers or if prisoners were concerned?
A Naturally.
Q Well that is what you inferred about the participation of Dr. Becker Freysing. You have previously talked about the responsibility of a referent and perhaps we can clarify this by means of an example; who was responsible for these experiments?
A Well, I was.
Q You, thank you. Then another question: did Becker-Freyseng submit any reports to you? Reports from Ruff, Romberg and Rascher with regard to the field of high altitude, or reports by Holzloehner, Finke and Rascher with regard to the specialized field of freezing experiments?
A No.
Q Thank you, I do not have any further questions.
BY DR. ROSE: (Defense Counsel for the Defendant Rose.)
Q Professor, the Prosecution has presented an affidavit from you and it is located in Prosecution Document Book No. 5, with regard to sea-water experiments. It is Document No. 449 and is Prosecution Exhibit 130 and in it you have signed the following, among other things, and I quote: "Aviation Hygienist General Gebhardt Rose supervised the research work done by Professor Haagen." And I continue to quote: "Rose had to be informed about all research work, which was carried out by consulting hygienists like Haagen on behalf of the Luftwaffe."
Professor, regarding the defendants Rostock and Handloser. Now on the basis of your knowledge of the positions and tasks of the consulting physicians of the German Wehrmacht - and they have in turn stated that such supervisory duties were even the authority for that and that the consulting physicians to the medical inspectorate did not have the authority to do that.
Will you please explain to us just what brought about your statements to the contrary in the affidavit?
A The statements in the affidavit are not the words used by me, but it is a summary from various interrogations, which were presented to me in this form at the time we discussed those things. If I hear it again in this form today, then I must say this is wrong or not a very good explanation.
The right to supervise, I have never claimed in the interrogations, and the consulting physicians did not have such authority. The consulting physicians had a so-called information authority, if I want to explain it that way. They could be ordered by the chief to be informed as to the progress of the work in order to report to the chief about it. That was their task and this question was proved more or less actively by the individual according to his tendencies.
Q Therefore, today, you can likewise confirm the correctiveness of the testimony, which has been given by the Defendants Rostock and Handloser?
A Yes, that is the generally recognized clear task of the consulting physicians. And this also refers to the positions of Professor Rose toward Professor Haagen.
Q. You stated earlier that this affidavit was not drafted by you, but that it was only presented to you for your signature?
A. Yes.
Q. In this original draft by the prosecution were there any other statements about Professor Rose, for example, the claim that Professor Rose had been the hygienist consultant of the SS?
A. Yes, it contained several mistakes which were false the way they were expressed, and in correcting these mistakes I failed to change this, or I would have changed it already at that time.
Q. In the same affidavit it is stated in another place, and I continue to quotes "Dr. Dohmen was his collaborator", namely, Haagen's. Now, I claim, Professor, that according to the knowledge which we have obtained here, Dohmen was not the collaborator of Haagen, but to the contrary, that he had a certain conflict with him, and do you agree with me now that this description in your affidavit is not correct?
A. I have heard that in the meantime. I made a mistake there. I assumed that they had already worked together at an earlier period of time.
Q. Then there is another conflict. Do you remember that in the fall of 1944 the SD, the Security Service, wanted to start a trial for treason against Professor Rose because Professor Rose had given lectures in neutral foreign countries, namely in Switzerland and in Turkey, in which he described in detail the progress which had been made in Germany in the field of combating typhus and combating malaria?
A. Yes, I remember that an inquiry from the SD was addressed to us at that time which contained these things.
Q. Do you further remember, Professor, that in this case above all, was information about the results of research by Professor Rose and other German scientists about the practical application of DDT powders against insects which were carrying diseases, above all with lice in the case of typhus and flies in the case of malaria?
A. Yes, the question of those lectures abroad was already prevalent with us before Rose had held them by request of the scientific societies and had been clearly determined, and at that time a settlement was made that he should talk about these things.
Q. It is correct that prior to the speech of Professor Rose at Basel articles had appeared in literature of the belligerent countries about the use of DDT powders with regard to combating epidemics, and that such articles had never appeared?
A. Yes, at that time probably this powder had not yet been discovered.
Q. Can you confirm that research was involved in this case which was of the utmost importance for the troops in combating epidemics?
A. That is a research of the utmost importance.
Q. Do you know the reasons which Professor Rose gave at that time for his attitude; namely, that the results of medical research even in times of war should benefit all mankind?
A. Rose, through his course of life and through his training, was used much more than we in working together with foreign countries. He was assistant in Switzerland and he has spent many years in China. He has worked in America, and in this way he has seen the large framework of scientific collaboration much more than we did, and he has incorporated this into his manner of working. In this course he desired to hold these lectures. It was at one time by suggestion of his friends in Switzerland and also because of his own attitude, and he wanted to give this information to all circles regardless to what nation they belonged.
Q. Professor, but you yourself agreed?
A. Yes, naturally. Otherwise it would not have been possible because we had to apply for passports.
Q. And later you had an inquiry about the defendant Rose from the SD?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you also request the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service to comply with your attitude?
A. Yes, I had to do that because the inquiry by the SD had probably been routed through the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service, and that is the reason I had to give him exact information.
Q. Then, a few more questions. Did Professor Rose, as consulting hygienist, have anything to do with problems and questions of aviation medicine?
A. No, nothing whatsoever.
Q. Did Professor Rose have anything to do with high-altitude experiments, with sub-freezing problems, the sea water experiments, or any problems connected with drifting on the seas?
A. No, Rose limited himself strictly to the purely hygienic questions of his field of work. He was exemplary in the respect that he did not intervene in any other fields.
Q. Did it ever come to your knowledge, Professor, that Professor Rose participated in research on hepatitis epidemica?
A No, he was not used in that respect by us. I have never heard that he worked on that.
Q Did Professor Rose already in 1943 transfer his department at the Robert Koch Institute, that is, his department for tropical science -- was this before you became medical inspector -- did he transfer his personnel and his equipment there to the Luftwaffe and did he convert it into a unit of the Luftwaffe; namely, the department for typhus therapy of the Luftwaffe at Ammerode?
A You mean malaria?
Q Yes, I mean malaria.
A Yes, you can call it that probably, because this department for malaria therapy was, as far as I know of these happenings and that was before my time -- they were organized with personnel and equipment from the department of the Robert Koch Institute and already at that time it was very difficult to obtain personnel, and thus Rose at that time furnished his personnel and his equipment for this task.
Q Was this not an unusual procedure, namely, the conversion of such a purely civilian research agency into a military unit?
A Of course, in peace time this would have been impossible, but since there was such a shortage of personnel every measure was taken which could be carried out at all. That had to be done in order to help oneself.
Q Then, another question. In the time when you were chief of the medical service of the Luftwaffe, did Professor Rose still stay at Berlin, or did he not rather have his permanent residence, aside from official trip at the department for science and research of the Military Academy of the Luftwaffe; that is, at Saalow, and later on at Bad Harzburg?
A Yes, Rose was constantly with that agency.
Q Do you consider it possible, Professor, that Professor Rose still had the possibility to carry out his civilian functions as vice-president in the Robert Koch Institute after he had completely removed his own department from the Robert Koch Institute and had transferred it to Thuringi and after he himself did not have his military station at Berlin?
A No, I believe that this activity came to a complete standstill.
DR. FRITZ: Thank you, I do not have any further questions.
EXAMINATION BY DR. SAUTER: (Counsel for defendant Ruff)
Q Witness, from 1943 on you were a medical inspector of the Luftwaffe?
A From the 1st of January, 1944 on.
Q As a result of this you also made the acquaintance of the defendant Dr. Ruff?
A Yes, I knew him.
Q Can you tell us what was the title of the institute whose head was the defendant Dr. Ruff?
A It was called the German experimental station for aviation research and that was the medical department of the German experimental station for aviation research.
Q You will hear in a minute why I want to know the exact title.
A Well, I cannot remember the exact title anymore. In any case it was the medical department there.
Q Well, can I inform you of the exact title? Aviation medical institute of the German experimental station for aviation.
A Well, if you tell me that now I assume that it is correct.
Q Yes, you can be quite certain it is correct. Then there was yet another institute which existed in the field of the Luftwaffe. It had a quite a similar title. That was the institute of Professor Struckholdt whom you have already mentioned quite a few times today.
A That was the Aviation Medical Research Institute.
Q That is correct, Aviation Medical Research Institute of the Reich Ministry of Aviation, the RLM. Witness, I placed emphasis upon this clarification because of a document which I am going to hand to you. It is located in Prosecution's Document Book 5, on page 12, Document No. 177. It is a document with which you have already occupied yourself with during the previous days. This document, No. 177, is a record of the meeting about making sea-water drinkable. Witness, could you perhaps at this time, answer another question: Did the Institute of Dr. Ruff have anything at all to do with this problem, that is, with the problem of making seawater drinkable?
A No.
Q Nothing whatsoever?
A Nothing whatsoever.
Q Now, please take a look at that record. On page 12, you first of all find a list of persons who participated in the meetings; and, under No. 14, and we are not interested in the other numbers here, it is stated: "Underarzt Dr. Schaefer's Medical Research Institute for Aviation." What kind of an institute was that; was it the institute headed by Dr. Ruff or was it the institute of Professor Struckholdt?
A That was the institute of Professor Struckholdt.
Q He was, that is, a referent of the institute of Dr. Ruff, and did not participate in the meetings. And, now, please let us go on a few more pages and take a look at the end of this document. On page 15 of Document Book No. 5, at the end of the distribution, it is stated in this document A (Interposing) Yes.
Q And, under that distribution it states, information copy, that is to say, certain agencies were to be informed, and here now is the third agency: You will find the institute for Aviation Medicine, the DVL, Berlin-Adlershof; according to its title, this would be the institute of Dr. Ruff. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q I am now asking you, Witness, you remember perhaps that in dealing with these sea-water experiments, the Prosecution has referred to the strange notices with regard to the distribution; that is to say, there still had to be a certain connection with the Ruff Institute to these sea-water experiments. Dr. Ruff will confirm in the course of his examination that this document had never been presented to him at an earlier period of time. Now, Doctor, how do you explain the fact that the Institute of Dr. Ruff is listed here at the end of the distribution, although no referent from his institute participated in the meetings and his institute did not have anything whatsoever to do with these experiments?
A I cannot quite understand the claim by the Prosecution if I read through the list of the distribution here correctly. However, since I know the agency I must make the following statement: This report was not worked on by a medical agency, it was handled by a technical agency. It was recorded and worked on there, and it was presented there, and if I see now who received the information copy of it, then I could not help but gain the impression that this was done according to certain schemes because the technicians here, at least, or the technical agencies with which they were usually in contact because not only the Institute for Aviation Medicine does not play any part here at all but just is interested as the testing station directly in the medical experimentation, and its Experimentation Department at Jueterbog which has also been listed here. These three agencies which I have just mentioned do not have anything whatsoever to do with the matter and it could have been only listed here by people who worked on this matter, and who were not acquainted with the connections at all.
Q Witness, if you will take another look at the distribution, which would perhaps give rise to the assumption that,in the distribution, the Institute for Aviation Medicine, that is, the Institute of Dr. Ruff, was included for the reason that it was mistaken for the Institute of Professor Struckholdt, which has a similar name?
A Yes, this probability exists because the institute which was interested in this question has not been listed; that is, this possibility had to be considered, that a mistake was made here. The correct institute has n** been listed in the distribution.
Q Although, under Article 14, a representative from that institute, that is, the Institute of Professor Struckholdt has been named as attending A (Interposing) Yes, and by all this institute was the one which had done part of the work, and that is why the referent Dr. Schaefer attended.
Q Witness, I still have another question. In the course of the trial, in an earlier period of time, you knew the defendant Dr. Ruff had carried ou* experiments with a low pressure chamber in 1942 -- the purpose of these experiments is, as you know, to rescue aircraft, to rescue aircraft personnel from high altitudes. In 1942, you were not the Medical Inspector?
A No.
Q And, therefore, you are not responsible for the experiments which were carried out at that time; therefore, I am the more interested to hear f** you if such high altitude experiments with the low pressure chamber were absolutely necessary for our Luftwaffe in the year 1942 or were these experiments superfluous?
A These experiments were very important, and I am speaking of this from my experience as Fleet Medical Officer, where these questions were discussed rather frequently, and that no fighter planes were flying at altitudes with which the ones we have been used to. I can remember quite a few discussions about this question of our flight engineers, and with regard to how the technicians would solve their experiences, and I can remember I used these experiences rather frequently. The technique is one that placed new problem upon us. At that time, I knew just as little as our flight engineer when these experiments were carried out, but these experiments were necessary and we were interested in them and we considered them necessary.
Q Witness, can you tell us anything about the personality of Dr. Ruff in his capacity as a scientist. Now, that Dr. Ruff was subordinated in some respects to your Medical Inspectorate, and I am particularly interested in the question: Is it correct that Dr. Ruff, at that tine, was generally Known as a scientist who was conscientious and particularly careful in carrying out his experiments, and who furthermore had the reputation that he carried out almost all experiments on himself. Can you tell us anything about that?
A. Yes. At this time I would like very much to give a judgment of Ruff; and I can probably give it with the necessary objectivity because I have known Ruff since 1936, or it may have been since 1937. When I at the time was chief of the staff of the inspectorate, Ruff then drew my particular attention because he was not only a physician but he was also captain of a flight, and flying captain in Germany meant a high achievement in aviation. It was not a name which everybody could have who had ever passed his flight training, but it was a title which was given as a result of special achievements in aviation.
For us, this was a very favorable matter. Ruff was the only physician at our disposal who was flight captain. We had a large number of other medical officers who were aircraft pilots. But we had only Ruff with this great aviation experience. This fact shows more than words that somebody who is so experienced in aviation and who has achieved so much there is naturally the person to carry out these experiments on himself because he fulfills the technical prerequisites for it. This we also knew; and also on the part of my agency they always referred to the fact that medical experiments which required special aviation experience could only be carried out with Ruff and by Ruff. He did not hesitate to carry out these experiments at all times.
Furthermore, Ruff at that time was a relatively young physician. However, he had an outstanding aviation physiological medical basis; and during his very young years he had understood it in this big institute for aviation research where probably our best and most experienced experts of aviation technique were working together to obtain an absolutely authoritative position for their own sectors. For us, Ruff with his work was the counter balance to the Aviation Medical Research Institute, the institute which on the basis of its laboratory organization was able to carry out this kind of work and which usually established prerequisites for Ruff's work; and this could now be completed by Ruff and his practical work.
Ruff was a man who basically carried out experiments on himself only; and only when he believed that he had obtained enough security did he then include his closer collaborators into his experimental circle. It is also characteristic of the work done by the institute that there were very few transfers of assistants. Once a person had become an assistant with Ruff, then he did not want to leave there anymore. It was a research community based on such loyalty and comradeship that men were inseparably connected with their research and their chief.
DR. SAUTER: May it please the Tribunal, I do not have any further questions to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess.
( A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
EXAMINATION BY DR. WILLE: (Counsel for Professor Weltz): May I be permitted to put a few questions to the witness, Professor Schroeder? You were discussing previously with Dr. Sauter the Aviation Medical Institute of Adlershof and you were answering a few questions. The leader of that Institute was Dr. Ruff. My question is, do you know the Aviation Medical Institute of Munich that was leaded by Professor Weltz? Do you know it from your activity?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know how it is comparable to the Institute in Adlershof or what differences there were?
A. Yes. There was a very great difference. The Institute at Adlershof was attached to technicalities and, therefore, in its research work had to adapt itself to the needs of technicians. The Institute of Professor Weltz when it originated, I think that was in 1935 or 36, was attached to the Physiological Institute of the University of Munich, and because of this difference there resulted a difference in the tasks. The Institute in Munich dealt mainly basical research work, research work which animated from work in physiology.
Q. As I assume, you probably know the scientific work of the Munich Institute and I should like to put a question to you and I am sure you can answer on behalf of your activity at that time. How was his work evaluated scientifically? Was it recognized?
A. From the Institute of Munich a number of theses were worked in the very young field of Aviation Medicine at that time. I remember to work before the war about the change of the blood distribution in the body when accelerated and works of that nature were carried on at that time. This was basical physiological work which originated with that Institute.
Q. So, one could will say that the activity of Professor Woltz was important and, from your point of view, would it be saying too much that Professor Weltz, in a certain sense, was the discoverer of the cold problem and I must tell you how I arrived at that assumption. Professor Weltz was attached to the Aviation Medical Institute as an observer and he was near the channel at the time and observed the catastrophes that resulted from flyers who drowned in the channel who were rescued and died from cold. It was found how important it was to find out methods to prevent death from cold. I should like to ask, is this result of Professor Woltz one of the first in the field?
A. Yes. That is correct. During the Western campaign the fields of tasks of the various Air Fleets, two and three, during that time I had certa in connections about it as I spoke yesterday, and similar experiences were made within Air Fleet No. 3 - the Fleet which covered the French part of the coast.
When we left that territory Air Fleet No. 3 to which Weltz belonged at that time took over the entire coast from Holland up to Spain. Consequently, I had sufficient opportunity to remain in contact with these questions and I remember some later discussions in my agency. I was told that the first discussions about the systematical treatment of cold damages were begun by the Institution of Professor Weltz, I think in 1942.
Q. Do you what organization of the Wehrmacht sponsored and took over this discussion of Professor Weltz and used it for their own purposes. In order to make this question more clearly: Do you know that a certain notice was distributed, the subject of which was this statement of Weltz and therapeutical methods to be employee?
A. I cannot say that. I think among the regulations issued by the Army one such notice was distributed, but I cannot say any more definitely.
Q. I am sure you probably didn't know the exact connection. Now, can I say with right, that is, a certain of the research work when he tried to clarify this problem was with animals? Do you know he only carried out experiments with animals?
A. Yes he did that. He performed these experiments on little animals, up to the pig and comparisons can be made of changes with the pig with human physiology.
Q. Do you know that Professor Weltz at a later date receive a research assignment in the field of cold? Also, that this research assignment was never actually carried out? Did you ever hear about that? Do you know anything about that?
A. I assume that since he was an animal expert he probably continued with these experiments.
Q. You probably cannot say that with certainty since it was before your time. Do you know Professor Weltz in his capacity as an x-ray specialist?
A. Yes.
356O
Q. You know that he is an x-ray specialist for many scientific works. Do you know he was the leader of the x-ray Congress in Munich in 1938?
A. Weltz was one of the leading x-ray specialist. The Congress of 1938 in Munich is very much in my memory since I was present there myself and I believe this was the very first opportunity where I started to get into closer contact with Weltz.
Q. I have no further questions.
EXAMINATION BY DR. STEINBAUER (Counsel for the defendant Beiglbeck:)
Q. Witness, you were speaking about the consulting physicians. My question is - is a consulting physician in a superior positions regards departmental physicians in a hospital?
A. Do you mean consulting physician?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, he is.
Q. The Indictment maintains that Dr. Beiglbeck was a consulting physician of the Air Force. Is that correct, or is it not?
A. No. He was considered as such but as I remember now that was never executed so the designation in the Indictment, namely consulting physician of the Air Force, is erroneous.
Q. According to your knowledge, did Dr. Beiglboeck ever attend meeting of the consulting physicians?
A. No, I cannot say that. I was only present in 1944 during that meeting and I know that he did not attend then. I would not assume that he took part in the other meetings since merely because of special consideration only consulting physicians were assigned.
Q. Was Dr. Beiglboeck ever invited to participate in any of the discussions about sea water experiments?
A. No.
Q. Did he receive any decision about the experiments whether they were to be carried through and how they were to be planned?
A. The arrangement and design of the experiment was communicated to him as it was established by Eppinger, Becker-Freyseng.
Q. Was it provided that the execution of the experiments was to be controlled in Dachau by Eppinger and others?
A. As far as I remember, even Eppinger himself initiated the idea in order to inform himself about the development of the experiments.
Q. Was the name Dr. Beiglboeck already mentioned in Himmler's letter; that is, before Beiglboeck knew about his being assigned for that purpose?
A. Yes, that is to be assumed. It is to be assumed that Beiglboeck, when the letter was sent off, did not know anything about the assignment, for his name had been mentioned by his chief, Eppinger, on the basis of his education and training with the Eppinger Clinic. He was the man who was particularly capable for that purpose and he was, therefore, suggested by Eppinger, and it is quite possible that when he was mentioned in the letter he had no knowledge about it.
Q. Is it correct that Grawitz assured you of the voluntary nature of the subjects?
A. Yes.
Q. Was Dr. Beiglboeck informed by you in the same sense?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the SS approach you when selecting the physicians who were to participate in the experiments, and were you told to consider political points of view?