A I am living presently at Cassel.
Q And what is your profession?
A I am a Protestant priest and Licensiat.
Q What activity are you engaged in at present?
AAt present I have the office of Director of the YMCA college at Cassel, that is, in German, the Youth Secretary School at Cassel. I am now traveling to England as German Director for War Prisoners' Aid.
Q What kind of an organization is that?
A That is the aid for prisoners of war of the Christian Youth Movement which is sponsored for all German prisoners of war by the International League at Geneva.
Q Witness, will you please tell us in your own words, and give the Tribunal a short sketch of, your life history and also tell the Tribunal about your political attitude.
A I studied theology at Leipzig and Berlin and I passed the state examination at the University of Leipzig. First of all I was a priest for the youth in central and southern Germany and I was director of the YMCA college at Berlin. At the outbreak of the war I became an army chaplain, I became a chaplan for the Luftwaffe units at Berlin. Actually, the Luftwaffe did not have its own ministers and I was an army chaplain. However, I was used as minister for the Luftwaffe for the civic commander. When Himmler was able to develop his power in the OKH I lost my office in 1943.
I was conscripted as a simple soldier and I was medical soldier with the parachute troops. After the collapse I was used by the Americans and the English in Italy as senior chaplain for entire Italy and as liaison man for the British and the Americans for the German prisoners of war in the Mediterranean area. In this capacity I was responsible for the reeducation and denazification of the German prisoners of war in Italy. As a result of this, I was given the opportunity to perform some work which I was unable to attain during the period of the Third Reich. To the contrary, during the regime of the Third Reich I was confronted with many difficulties.
When Pastor Niemoeller was arrested in 1937, I, as a confessional minister of the Lutheran Church, participated in this work and I was also arrested. As a result of my activity on behalf of the YMCA I was expelled from Danzig and from 1934 my activities were watched by the Gestapo and I was given a special court trial by the Gestapo.
Then, in 1943, I lost my office because Himmler wanted to prevent my influence on the Luftwaffe. In the course of my activity, which I had to carry out in the Third Reich, I was only assisted by very few Germans. At the time I became acquainted with General Schroeder, at man who did not hesitate to help me.
Q. Witness, when and on what occasion did you make the acquaintance of Dr. Schroeder?
A. That was at the very beginning of the outbreak of the war. He was the father of one of my students and one day he called me and asked me to hold the Christmas ceremony at the Reich Sports Field in Berlin, of the Luftwaffe. He maintained the point of view that a Christmas celebration for soldiers could only be hold in the presence of a minister and with a clear concession to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
This gave me the possibility for the first time to be heard and to speak before the men and women of the Third Reich in a larger circle, which were taking particular care of that hospital at that time. Therefore they were especially kind because the Luftwaffe usually refused any special aid in that respect.
It was on that occasion that I made the acquaintance of Professor Schroeder.
Q. Did not this attitude of Professor Schroeder on that occasion have a certain risk connected with it for him?
A. It was connected with a risk for him because official spiritual welfare for soldiers of the Luftwaffe had not been planned for in Berlin. Thus, as an officer he gave an example and he maintained an attitude which was contrary to the official attitude of higher officers in the Luftwaffe
Q. What were your further contacts with Professor Schroeder?
A. On the basis of this Christmas celebration at the hospital I requested Professor Schroeder to let us carry out the spiritual welfare in all Luftwaffe hospitals in the vicinity of Berlin. Through a special decree I received the permission to hold a service every week and also to have a discussion with the wounded medical officers, non-commissioned officers, and soldiers.
His son Hans was one of my confirmation students and he was one of the best students there. After having been confirmed, he became the director of a small group of boys and girls who, in spite of the prohibition against the Protestant youth, assembled once weekly. Professor Schroeder permitted us to hold the meetings of this group in his house.
Then, in the official position which I occupied, he helped me in many forms. For example, he helped me in obtaining negotiations and discussions which I had to engage in with loading men of the Luftwaffe in order to guarantee that I could take care of the spiritual welfare of the Luftwaffe personnel in Berlin. Then, he also personally frequently intervened in the work which I had to do with the prison in Berlin. When a member of the medical sector had been accused, and when I believed that he was being unjustly sentenced, then I was entitled to report to him directly about the matter.
Q. Witness, you spoke of the time until Professor Schroeder was transferred as Air Fleet physician, that is, when he was at Berlin, Now I con* to the time when he was Fleet Medical Officer with Air Fleet 2. Were you again in touch with him from that time on?
A. Even during this period I had contact with him. He also helped me in my work, which was not very easy, from Italy. At the time I was the sil** liaison man of the Confessional Church to the agencies which were kindly disposed towards us at that time in the Wehrmacht. My spiritual advisor was the Minister von Bodelschwingh, who has died in the meantime.
During the time when Professor Schroeder was in Italy, I tried to start a main office for spiritual welfare of the Luftwaffe. However, all my attempts failed in the beginning. Since General Bodenschatz, who had become the contact person with Goering, had intervened on his part, and he was kindly disposed towards me, I took a new opportunity in order to again start discussing the question of spiritual welfare in the Luftwaffe.
The predecessor of Professor Schroeder, Professor Hippke, and General von Hase, who was later on hung by order of Hitler, and the civilian adjutant of Goering, Ministerial Director Boettge, and I, tried to formula A memorandum in which it was shown that the wounded and the dying in the hospitals of the Luftwaffe were in need of spiritual welfare by the Catholic, as well as by the Protestant Church. At the time a secret circular was directed to all chief medical officers of the Luftwaffe, and all air district medical officers, in order to discover the religious attitude of soldiers of the Luftwaffe. The result, which never became known in Germany, was that 65 percent of all hospital inmates requested, spiritual welfare. Among the statements of the persons who answered who individual questions, the questionnaire of Professor Schroeder was the most outstanding and the the most important. In very sharp and clear words he gave reasons, from the Italian theater of operations, that spiritual welfare for members of the Luftwaffe hospitals was necessary. At the the situation had deteriorate to such an extent that dead German soldiers in the hospitals, who were Protestants, had to be buried by an Italian Catholic priest because no German Minister was available, and the soldiers in the Luftwaffe who had been ministers in their civilian professions were not allowed to engage in the civilian activity.
This happened during the time when Prof. Schroeder was in Italy, and the filling in and the handling of the questionnaires had been entrusted to me by Prof. Hippke. We were able to address a memorandum to the command in chief of the Luftwaffe, and the good examples which Prof. Schroeder gave about the prevailing situation assisted me at the time in formulating the memorandum in such a way that the only person who was at all kindly disp*** towards the question of Christianity -- and that was not a man, but a wo*** that was Mrs. Goering, at the time accepted this memorandum in order to present it to her husband. However this resulted in a complete failure, because Goering did not have very much authority any more in 1942 and therefore nothing changed. However, we did achieve success in one point, because several German medical officers of the Luftwaffe had the courage to state to the National Socialist regime that Christian spiritual welfare in the Wehrmacht was necessary. It became tolerated after a while that at the time when officially spiritual welfare on members of the Luftwaffe were prohibited -- such spiritual welfare could be given with the individual approval of several officers and that several soldiers now were able to spiritual welfare as ministers. Of course, they were not military chaplain but they were plain soldiers who had been ministers in civilian life.
That is sufficient for the time being, and while for the time being Prof. Schroeder was in Italy.
Q From April, 1943, you had been conscripted as a soldier in the medical service of the Luftwaffe. Was your contact to Prof. Schroeder interrupted as a result of this, or did you still have contact with him subsequently?
A When I lost my office in 1943 I had to be very careful, because was being watched by various sides. For example, I was prohibited from entering the office of the Reichsmarshall, and I could only under an assu* name, namely Johann II, have any contact at all with the officers of the Luftwaffe who were kindly disposed toward me, because, thank God, there were German officers who had more regard for Christianity than for the orders by the Gestapo. At that time I again got into contact with Prof.
Schroeder through a remarkable fact. I came to Saldorf near Berlin as a simple medical soldier. There I did the usual service and duty performed the rest of the soldiers there. I was just a simple soldier. One day I received a letter from the Reich Military Court. It was signed by the high prosecutor, by the Reichs Kriegs Attorney, General Staff Judge Krell. In this letter he requested me to immediately draft a memorandum in a certain matter, and in this case conscientious objectors were concerned who refuse to serve for religious reasons. This came about in the following manner: During my activity as military chaplain of Berlin I also cared for the military prisons which were located in Berlin. In these prisons there was contained a large number of so-called Jehovah's Witnesses. They also app* under the name "Jehovah's Witnesses.'' Amongst them there were also member of the Mennonites, of the Quakers, and there was one representative of the Protestant Church. At that time, together with my Catholic colleagues, was the only person entitled to visit these prisons. And because of the large number of prisoners confined there, we were unable to see all of t** However, those for whom I felt a particular sympathy were the Jehovah's Witnesses, because they did not have any rights at all. They were not given justice. While the Catholic priests, on the basic of their agreement with Rome, did not have to serve in the armed forces but could either go into the medical service of the Wehrmacht or they were not conscripted at all. But they, on their part, were not wiling to perform any military service. The Protestant objectors for religious reasons, and above all, the group of Jehovah's Witnesses, did not have any advantages whatsoever. On the contrary, they were sentenced to death by Hitler without any consideration whatsoever, although the legal situation was the same as that of my Catholic friends. At the time both my Catholic colleagues and I tried everything in order to help these people. In the Reich court there were also men who at that time occupied themselves particularly with this case, and if I am not mistaken, in the year 1942, on the occasion of a reception at the President of the Reich Military Court. Admiral Bastian and the Senior Reich Military Court Prosecutor, General Staff Judge Krell, I received the permission to draft a memorandum which was to be of help to the delinquents and which was to help them change their point of view, if possible.
The Reich Military Court was determined, thanks to the attitude of Bastian and Krell, who were kindly disposed towards Christianity, to postpone the execution of the sentences until such time when we ministers had been given an opportunity to give spiritual welfare for these men for a sufficient amount of time. If we had succeeded in changing the attitude of one of the delinquents, by virtue of the law which was in existence at that time, he was dismiss, from confinement and sent to the front. As a result of the fact that we were given the opportunity to work on these people, we were able to save large number of people from their death punishment, and we were able above all to care for the families which had gotten into terrible difficulties as a result of these series of murders. I had just begun with the manusc* that was with its duplicate form and also with the popular version for the delinquents themselves, and also as a religious psychological form for the representatives of the Reich Military Court, when my house, my library, my books were burned as a result of a British air attack. Ten days later also lost my office. I became a plain private in the army, who could not take it upon himself any more to contact as high an agency as the Reich Military Court. As I have stated, after the period of one year, that is, at the beginning of 1943, the General Staff Judge Krell addressed me with the request to once more make an application in matters pertaining to the conscientious objectors. He simply directed this letter to my address and it did not call for any particular attention, because he was the father one of my former religious students whom I had confirmed. He also request me in the letter to keep the matter secret. Then I got into a very great difficulty, because I was a private first class in the Luftwaffe. First of all, I should have seen my company commander, and then I should have r*o** ed the whole matter.
At the time, after a severe struggle with myself, I reached the decision to give all my confidence to a man who was willing to risk something for the sake of Christianity. The man whom I trusted was Osker Schroeder. At the time, I went to his agency by avoiding regular channels. I succeeded and I told him and his adjutant, Augustiniak about the whole matter.
At the time, Professor Schreoder told me he wanted to help me. On very same day I received an official room at Saalow. It was an officer's room. I was given a furlough for three months in order to draft his manuscript. Then I had the opportunity to work out the important manuscript in peace and quiet. It was a manuscript on whose success the lives of thousand of people depended. Neither Professor Schroeder nor I were conscientious objectors for religious reasons. He was an officer. And I had been a military chaplain for three years. However, we were human beings who respected the viewpoint of the conscientious objectors for religious reasons.
We wanted to help them within the framework of this manuscript. We, on our part, believed we were able to suggest that these conscientious objectors should be used as enlisted men in the medical service with parachute troops or that they should work with the Organization Todt in defense work. I particularly intervened in these two points for the reason that a large number of the people were prepared to do two things: They refused to handle any weapons, but they were willing to go to the front. Secondly, they did not want to give any religious oaths, but they, on their part, were willing to enter into an obligation. Hitler would have refused both ways. He actually did. We were unable to help them any more in this way. There was only one further way. That was the postponement of the execution of the sentences.
After the three months passed, I submitted the memorandum to the Reich Military Court. I then came as an enlisted man in the medical service to the parachute unit in Italy. In the summer of 1944, I requested a furlough in order to have this memorandum to the Reich Military court printed. My superior with the parachute unit at that time was again a medical officer of the Luftwaffe.
It was a friend of General Schroder. His name was Oberstabarzt Fischer. He gave me permission although he knew what the m*t* concerned.
Then in the days of 20 July or afterwards, I came to Germany. Gentlemen, you know what was going on in Germany at that time. I then had an attack of malaria and I was unable to move. Three of my friends were hung by Hitler. I administered welfare to all three families. I was the person who educated those boys. One was General von Hase, the City Commander of Berlin. The second was General Freygebel of the OKW. The third was General Thiele who was working at the same agency.
During this period of time, I also tried to get into contact with Professor Schroeder. At that time I was his subordinate. At that time, I was not a minister any more. At the time, he made it possible for me to again get into touch with Thorgau and also with Thiele, so that the memrandum could be printed. In the meantime, within the OKW the political situation had progressed to such a point that we were unable to have this memorandum printed without first obtaining official approval.
At the time, a copy was sent, for reference, to the Reich Military. Nobody was allowed to discuss the subject. The popular memorandum, on the other hand, was placed at the disposal of the delinquents. There were approximately 50 typewritten pages. In the course of a telephone conversation, I remember exactly, Professor Schroeder charged me with tho care the family of the City Commander Hase. General Hase was hung after the happenings of 20 July. He knew that we had the same convictions as he did I was the only person who, at that time, was in the technical position to help him.
My furlough came to an end. I did not have the time any more to take any action. Only now, after my return from Italy have I been able to again get in touch with the family. When I travelled to Italy again, Professor Schroeder gave me a special recommendation, that was with the Ambassador the Holy Seat, Baron von Weizaecker. There also, the case of the conscientious objectors was involved. Baron von Weizaecker was able, as a result of the information which I imparted to him, to intervene in this matter the Vatican.
I want to emphasize, particularly, that Baron von Weizaecker and I are both protestants. However, this was a matter which pertained to human in general. Confessions were not involved anymore, but these matters concerned everybody who was a Christian. As a result of this intervention, I* was possible for me to indirectly inform the Vatican. And at the time, Professor Schroeder, gave me the opportunity to do this. This was in the period while I was in Italy.
Q What general picture can you give of the personality and the character of Professor Schroeder?
A May it please the Tribunal, the usual place from which I speak is the pulpit, not the witness stand. The message which I have to give i* the pulpit is devoted to love and truth. Here the legal questions are involved. However, it is necessary in the case of emergency, for the minister to leave his pulpit and enter the witness box. Because otherwise whatever he says in the pulpit is neither love nor truth.
Professor Schroeder was a member of my community, my congregation. He helped me although he knew I was a confessional minister. He did this during a period of time when the entire confessional church was persecution I, myself, was confined to prison. I know, now, how he feels. I would not be able to look him in the eye if at this time I would not be ready to testify that to which my conscience obligates me. I know that this will cause me to become unpopular. The same truth is involved here as is involved in the pulpit. I am not a soldier and I am not a physician. I am minister and I hope to be a Christian. Only as such, can I say anything about Professor Schroeder. However, I am of the conviction that what has been stated about him in the indictment cannot be true. I cannot imagine that he would have anything to do with that. It would also be contrary to any inner moral logic. How can a man who on the one side helped the Jehovah's Witness's, persons who are politically persecuted and in whose exterminate the Third Reich had an interest, be interested in exterminating people in concentration camps?
How can he be pleased to watch this problem superficially.
He who takes care of other things with such risk involved, he would also have taken care, much care in this point. I think it will be sufficient for me to point out one factor. I have heard of Professor Schroedor's arr*** in Italy by radio. During that period, I still, for a period of three months, was a prisoner, although I was a trustee of Americans and the British. I was unable to take any action from there. I have now returned to Germany and I have reported.
Court. No. 1.
It may be of interest to the Tribunal that already four weeks after end of the War I was present at one of the first orientation of the secret service, and that I had already mentioned the name of Professor Shroedor that time in a positive sense, because the London Minister of War requested me at that time to give all the information which I had about the personalities of the Third Reich. At the time I stated everything I knew, and repeat I am a minister. I am unable to right the wrong. That is not my primary duty. It is not my primary duty to put the wrongs into the right. That is your duty. However, it is my duty to call good whatever is good. That is what I intended to do here. In any case the Christian congregation will not forget what Professor Shroeder has done on its behalf, because it is not the custom of Christians to forget.
DR. MARX: I thank you. I have reached the end of my examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any cross-examination of this witness on the part of any defense counsel? There being none the prosecution may crossexamine.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. Doctor, can you tell us approximately the number of times you have personally contacted Professor Shroedor?
A. At least 20 times, certainly.
Q. You say you lost your job as a Luftwaffe Chaplain because of Himmler?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know that concentration camps were under Himmler and the *
A. The concentration camps, yes.
Q. Did you ever visit one?
A. No.
Q. Do you know what sort of prisoners they retained in tho concentration camps?
A. What kind of prisoners were kept or confined in concentration ** I have only heard that to the fullest extent after the collapse, but otherwise I know that because of political persecution and racial persecution and religious persecution, persons were kept in concentration camps and I also know that some of my boys of the YMCA were also confined there.
Q. And you yourself were persecuted by the Gestapo?
A. Yes, I was probably watched after 1933, and over since that time and I was arrested in 1937. In the same year I was expelled from the c** and then I was subjected to a trial by special court, which I have already previously mentioned.
Q. And did you feel that the concentration camps were a threat to you during this period?
A. Yes, certainly. After all I myself was in prison and at that time the question arose that I myself could have been sent into a concentration camp, and that was in August 1937. And all the way through the trial it was handled very competently by a German defense counsel and this was prevented. During the interrogation he sent me a note in which he previously told me to testify, and he gave me some word of the possibility to escape this th***
Q. You mentioned the fact that the Jehovah Witnesses were persecuted by the SS; do you know whether the Jehovah witnesses were sent to concentration camps?
A. Yes, I knew that.
Q. Do I understand you to say that it was a practice to condemn Jehovah Witnesses to death?
A. You must make a difference between two things, first, those Jehovah Witnesses who from the civilian localities had been sent into a concentration camp, and were subordinated to the administration of Himmler. Second, the others who had been quite normally conscripted by the German Wehrmacht were from the date of their conscription subordinated to the Wechrmacht and on the first day of active service they testified at some of the German Wehrmacht that they refused, to perform military service, and then they were transferred to the Military Court by the commander of that office, so we have the state of affairs that the Jehovah Witnesses were in the concentration camps, although these people were not murdered, and although they would certainly have refused to serve in the armed forces.
However, on the other hand the prisoners, conscientious objectors and the persons after having received their death sentences were executed.
Q And these conscientious objectors who were conscripted into the Wehrmacht and refused to serve were tried by a Military Tribunal, sentenced to death and were committed to a risen to await execution, is that right?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q I take it that you have some familiarity with the punitive measures carried out in the Luftwaffe on soldiers who had committed crime of one sort or another, is that right?
A In some cases I was informed about it, because I took care of the military prisoners in Berlin.
Q Have you ever heard of a Wehrmacht soldier or a Luftwaffe soldier having been sent to a concentration camp as punishment for some crime he committed while a member of the Luftwaffe?
A Well, that was as follows. As far as I can remember a soldier in the Luftwaffe who had committed a crime and if the crime was very severe he was tried by the Reich Military Court, and then he was sentenced to a labor camp and that was Germersheim and Thorgau, which I have already mentioned earlier. That is as far as I can remember, and as far as possible, I am not already informed about this, after the regular trial had been completed and according to the regular procedure, several of them were sent to a concentration camp. However, this did not include Jehovah Witnesses.
Q These labor camps you have mentioned were they under the Jurisdiction of Himmler?
A Yes. I believe these labor camps were subordinated to the Wehrweht, because I had a colleague who was working there and certainly there are no ministers in the concentration camps, but certainly they are there as prisoners.
Q Let me put a case to you; you have heard of the Concentration camp Dachau, I assume?
A Yes.
Q You know that that camp was under the jurisdiction of the SS and Reich Fuehrer Himmler?
A Yes. I was recently there for about eight days as a prisoner.
Q Have you ever heard of any member of the Wehrmacht who had committed a crime while a member of the Wehrmacht having been sent to Dachau?
A Will you ask the question so the answer could be directly or indirectly.
Q Just tell me what you know about that situation anyway you want to, put it directly or indirectly.
AAs far as I know in any case members of the Wehrmacht were only sentenced to concentration camps after they had been expelled from the Wehrmacht. That may be approximately the same case which was applied to the jail at Brandenburg. The jail at Brandenburg was the place where former members of the Wehrmacht were executed. My friend Toolscher and I in successful cases and as far as we were successful in doing so we were present at such executions when we issued special rites during the last hours of the condemned until this practice was eliminated. Former members of the Wehrmacht were there who had been condemned to death, and three days before the sentence was executed they were expelled from the Wehrmacht, those that had obtained the status of civilians. I am advised the same applied to concentration camps. However, I am only informed about that, but the situation at Brandonburg I have seen.
Q. As far as you know, Wehrmacht soldiers condemned to death were executed in this prison which you have mentioned, is that right?
A. At Brandenburg, yes.
MR. McHANEY: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, the court will be in recess before pursuing the examination.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. VORWERK (Counsel for the Defendant DR. ROMBERG):
Q. Your testimony, witness, about concentration camp inmates-- deep this refer to any particular concentration camp, or to concentration camp; in general?
A. What I said refers to camps in general.
Q. Before the collapse were you ever a prisoner or in any other capacity in a concentration camp?
A. I was never in a concentration camp, either as prisoner, or in any other capacity.
Q. Your testimony about concentration camp inmates, therefore, is not based on your own observations, is that true?
A. That is true.
Q. Who were the people from whom you learned what conditions were in concentration camps, in particular who the inmates were, on which your testimony has been based so far?
A. Those were my friends from the confessional church.
Q. Didn't they tell you that in concentration camps there were large numbers of criminals, partly persons condemned to death and partly person with long prison sentences, that is, persons condemned by regular German courts?
A. Yes, that is true.
Q. Then your statements about concentration camp inmates should be completed in this respect?
A. Yes, if you wish.
Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further questions of this witness on the part of any defense counsel?
The Prosecution may cross-examine.
MR. McHANEY: No further questions, Your Honor.
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q. Pastor, will you tell the Tribunal again.
A. I am sorry, I cannot hear.
Q. Will you again repeat to the Tribunal when it was that you first learned of the existence of concentration camps in Germany?
A. That was when Niemoeller was arrested; as far as I can remember that must have been 1937.
Q. To what extent was the knowledge of the existence of concentration camps.....
A. I cannot hear.
Q. To what extent was the knowledge of the existence of concentrate camps, their location, and the various types or classes of prisoners kept there, known generally in Germany during the war, can you say?
A. First of all I heard only of the two big camps, Dachau and Orani burg. Then I knew of a camp for women at Hohenlychen. That was because o* day the bishop of Mechlenburg who had been dismissed by German christians, Dr. Rindhoff, came to me and asked me whether I would not help him to libe* his wife from the concentration camp at Hohenlychen by approaching a high officer of the Luftwaffe. That is how I learned about Hohenlychen. That was for women.
Q. Can you say whether or no. "our knowledge of the fact of the existence of concentration camps in Germany was generally known by the German population or at least by Germans in official positions within the framework of the government?
A. My connections were strictly secret, not even all the bishops knew about it. I only had the assignment from the confessional chu** The better known my position might have been, the loss I could have done it only lasted until 1943. Then I lost the opportunity.
Q I'm not at all sure that you understood the question. The question is this: Are you in a position to say whether or not it was generally known or understood throughout Germany that there were such things in Germany as concentration camps?
A I must say one thing. The two big camps, Oranienburg and Dachau, were generally known in Germany. But I emphasize expressly that those were to camouflage names -- two cover names. As far as I know, at lest, and as far as I knew from confidential reports from my friends in the Confessional Church, they wore divided into two parts, into a public part which was shown as a model camp, and an unofficial half which was hot shown. My friends knew only the public part. What happened in the unofficial part and probably in the other camps whose names I have learned now, such as Buchenwald or the camps near Vienna, one never learned about that. The propaganda tactics were good. I mean that ironically.
Q Do you know, of your own knowledge, what official agency in the framework of the German government was in charge of the administration of the part of the camp that was not a model camp -- in your expression?
A That must have been within the Reichsfuehrer SS or the Ministry of the Interior. The man in charge of the camps must have known about it. I am not informed about the details.
Q You were making some comment about the difficulty of carrying on a religious program in the Wehrmacht. Can you tell us whether or not, or to what extent if any, chaplains were officially assigned to the various regiments or other military or naval units of the German Wehrmacht during the war? In other words, was there, within the framework of the German Wehrmacht, an official chaplain's organization and assignment, such as existed, for example, in America?
A There was such an organization. It was centrally under an office in the High Command of the Army. It was headed by a Field Bishop for the Evangelical Church and a Field Bishop for the Catholic Church. In the army, and similarly, in the navy, there was, for each army group, a Wehrmacht Deacon; for each army, a Wehrmacht Chief Pastor; and for each division a Divisional Pastor; that is, two in each case, an Evangelical one and a Catholic one.
There wer no other chaplains. Each division -- at wartime strength --had only two chaplains. The Luftwaffe did not have chaplains of its own. That was, first of all, because the Luftwaffe had no tradition. It was something quite now. I know from conversation that Goering, at the beginning, tried to set up a chaplain system for the Luftwaffe, but in 1936, he was not able to put his views through against the opposition of Bermann and Hitler. And then, when, in 1940, through General Bodenschatz's Chief Adjutant, I tried to achieve something, he took a negative attitude. He said he could not do anything. Hitler had definitely prohibited a new branch for chaplains within the Wechrmacht. The High Command of the army, as well as the officers of the Luftwaffe who were favorably inclined to religion by private agreement, as it were, took care of the Luftwaffe units which were in the neighborhood through the divisional chaplains. The result was that they got practically no care, because the army chaplain could not even deal with his own army division. There were simply too many people. Those were the difficulties.
JUDGE SEBRING: I have no further questions.
DR. SEIDL (Counsel for the defendants Gebhardt, Oberhauser and Fischer In view of the last questions of the Tribunal, I ask permission to put a few questions to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, you spoke of the Concentration Camp Hohenlychen?
A. Yes.
Q You said that it was the only concentration camp for women in Germany?
A To my knowledge.
Q It is a fact that there was only one concentration camp for women in Germany; that was the concentration camp Ravensbrueck. It is true, however, that Ravensbrueck is near Hohenlychen -- 12 kilometers way.
A Then that is probably the one.
DR. SEIDL: That is all.
DR. STEINBAUER (Counsel for the defendant Beiglboeck): May I also, after the questions of the Tribunal, put a question to the witness?
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
DR. STEINBAUER:
Q Witness, you were asked about the duty secrecy. Do you know that if someone succeeded in getting out of a concentration camp he had to sign a pledge not to say anything whatever about the concentration camp?
A I was told that.
Q Do you know the literature about concentration camps which has appeared in large quantities in Germany and in Austria, or have you read some of it? Have you read some books?
A I was three months behind barbed wire. I did not read much.
DR. STEINBAUER: I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: If there are no further questions to be propounded to the witness, the witness may be excused.
(The witness was excused.)
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Schroeder will resume the witness stand. The witness is reminded that he is still under oath. Counsel for the prosecution may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. McHANEY:
Q General, did you know that political prisoners were incarcerated in concentration camps?
A Yes.
Q As of what date did you know that?
A I knew that from peace times. The case of Pastor Niemoeller was an example of that.
Q You knew that concentration camps were under the jurisdiction of Himmler, as Reichsfuehrer SS, did you not?
A Yes.