That is my opinion.
Q. In this entry of 9 January 1943 you were named as SS Gruppenfuehrer. Did you have that rank at that time? SS Gruppenfuehrer?
A. No, and because of this reason I want to mention that date of 9 January 1943, because I only became Gruppenfuehrer on the 30th of January, and I assume that the approval for the change in the name of the production establishment comes together at the same time as the information which I received from Dr. Mrugowsky and which I have mentioned before.
Q. In the entry you are also mentioned as Lieutenant General of the Waffen SS. Were you that also on 9 January 1943?
A. That came simultaneously with the appointment to Gruppenfuehrer.
Q. Ding claimed that he was main department head. Did any position like that exist in Department 16 of the Waffen SS?
A. No, the position and title of head of Department 16 never existed. He only drew funds from my office because he had been detached from the personnel office through the Reich physician and this perhaps was also a little exaggeration.
Q. In the course of his examination the witness Kogan - and this is on page 1230 of the German record - said that you had given the approval for the establishment of the department for typhus and virus research. Is that correct?
A. It was not, as Kogan stated an "establishment", but it was a renaming of the new production facilities. That was occupied in the middle of August, as I have already stated. It only began its production in late fall. That was at a period of tine when I was not responsible anymore.
Q. But then why was the name of the research department approved when this actually was a production establishment?
A. That in itself is a contradiction of the objective. It is a contrast in the title. However, Kogan has probably given the correct expla nation.
The name of this production establishment was suggested by Ding. That was in copying the Army which had an institute for virus and typhus research at Cracow and it likewise had a production establishment there for vaccines.
Q. Ding frequently, without any doubt, was in Berlin also with you. On the occasion of one of his visits at Berlin in the time of 1942 until August 1943 did he give you any details about the experiments, especially about the infecting experiments?
A. No, a report about the infecting process would certainly have remained in my memory, as I have already stated previously, and I cannot remember that he had ever discussed the subject with me.
Q. During this period of time - that is to say, from 1942 until 1943 did he visit Berlin frequently?
A. I have relatively little contact with him at Berlin. Dr. Kogan is probably right when he states that the experiments of Ding were two to four or six experiments per year, and in early March 1943, according to his affidavit, he was sick at that time and he was also taking a convalescent leave in Malente and, as he himself states in the affidavit, he was then detached to the Pasteur Institute at Paris and he returned from this assignment towards the end of October. So that from March to October Ding was not carrying out any official duties. It may have been in the last week of March, at the time I made a trip to the front - it was a trip to the Eastern front. That was a sector near Leningrad. At that time I was together with Italian medical officers and on my return trip near Riga I had a gall colic attack and then I worked several days in Berlin in order to somehow settle the work which had accumulated in the meantime, and then, as it has been described, in the affidavit, I was in May at Karlsbad for convalescence. Then, approximately in the middle of June, I had again recovered to such an extent that I was able to resume my work. From the annual report of 1943, which Sturmbannfuehrer Ding compiled and which is included here in the documents, it is indicated that Ding towards the end of June until the middle of August was also taking a vaca tion on a Baltic sea island near Ruegen.
Then, from spring 1942 until A****t 1943, there were only few winter months and according to the diary it is in these winter months that the main activity was carried out by Ding in his research institute and I believe that at that time the chances of my obtaining any information were very slight.
DR. MERKEL: May it please the Tribunal, in order to complete the record, I want to mention tho 2 documents rich have just been mentioned by the witness. One is an affidavit by Dr. Ding-Schuler, Document 257, Prosecution Exhibit 283; and the report of Ding is Document 582, Prosecution Exhibit 286. Both documents are located in Document Book 12 of the Prossecution.
Q. Now, witness, how can you explain the fact that you did not find out anything in Retail from Ding about his research activity?
A. I certainly was worried about that and I reached the foll, owing conclusions: Ding know that a strained relationship existed between Drawitz and me and my intentional withdrawal from the fields of assignments and field of competence of the Reich Physician within the fields of science and research. Furthermore, Ding knew of my lack of knowledge in bacterielogical and serological fields -- he knew that from my previous education and training; the possibility also exists that the relationship of respect which existed between him and myself, which Kogan described as a paternal relationship -- that this caused him to refrain from telling me any details. And then with a scientific ambition, which Dr. Kogan has also described, this may have caused him to refrain from giving me any more details, so that he would not be hampered in his work, and his progress. Perhaps he was afraid that my attitude might be different from his and therefore avoided discussing the infecting procedure with me. As for myself, I did not discuss any further details because my work in the troop medical service confronted me with other tasks which gave me cause for much worry and troubles.
Q. Dr. Kogan reports in his testimony about official and private correspondence between you and Dr. Ding. What contents did.
the official and what contents did the private correspondence have?
A. I have already stated that I have not read the scientific reports -- that they were not submitted to me; I cannot remember the contents at all in detail of the official correspondence which perhaps Ding addressed to my agency. Nor can I remember that anything was contained in the private letters which might have given details about his activities.
Q. Now why did you not on your own initiative try to obtain details about the experiments at Buchenwald? How can you explain that fact?
A. I never felt responsible for the experimental station. Proof of this is the fact that I never visited it. I was mainly interested in the results which were achieved in the production of vaccine at the production place; that was the interest in my troops. Furthermore, this was the express field of tasks of the Reich Physician because it was within the field of scientific research. I, as Chief of the Medical Service of the Waffen-SS and Office Chief of the SS Leadership Main Office, did not have any competence about the concentration camps and I had me business in looking into affairs with regards to the prisoners and I was unable to issue any orders in that respect. As I have already mentioned on several occasions, as a result of my relationship to Grawitz I was particularly reserved, I made every effort to keep away from his field of competence, the bacteriological-serological field; and regarding the production of vaccines in my field I have already stayed in detail.
Q. By whom was Ding appointed as Chief of the Experimental Station at Buchenwald?
A. Grawitz appointed Ding as chief and he initiated the order which the SS personnel office that he was tranferred and detached.
Q. Did Grawitz authorize such a transfer of Ding?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Dr. Ding have the same capacity as the Camp Medical Officer at Buchenwald?
A. Grawitz, in conjunction with the physician in charge, Standartenfuehrer Dr. Lolling, ordered that Dr. Ding was to work besides the camp medical officer.
DR. MERKEL: May it please the Tribunal, I consider this an appropriate time to offer certain documents in evidence at this time. The witness has already stated several times that Ding was detached to Buchenwald. I new want to offer Genzken Document 14, on page 30 of my document book, which I offer as Genzken Exhibit No. 4. It is an affidavit by the former Chief of the SS Leadership Main Office, Juettner, and it rounds as follows. (This is to supplement to my document book and is on page 30.) I quote:
"There were two kinds of military assignments:
"1. Detached service within a unit on temporary duty, such as orderlies and clerks. They were under their old superiors as far as discipline was concerned.
"2. There were assignments equivalent to a transfer. These assignments were given if the unit to which the person concenred was attached did not yet have its budget set up and the person concerned had to continue to be paid by his old pa**aster. Soldiers whose assignments was equivalent to a transfer were no longer under their old disciplinary superior, but under the superior to whom they had been attached." The defendant himself has made a little chart which shows the subordination procedure of Blocks 46 and 50 in Concentration Camp Buchenwald. It shows the relationship of subordination of Dr. Ding; this is Genzken Document 11 on page 26 of the document book and I offer it as Genzken Exhibit No. 5. May it please the Tribunal, I believe that on the translation which has been submitted to the Tribunal a broken line was not contained.
There should be a broken line from the Reich Security Main office on the left side of the chart which should go form there to the Reich Criminal Police Office directly below and it should go from there to Block 46.
JUDGE SEBRING: Will you repeat that please?
DR. MERKEL: There should be a broken line. This line should be inserted on the left side of the chart from the Reich Security Main Office down to the Reich Criminal Police Office and from there it should be continued to Block 46. This always that certain official contact would have to be established and I want to apologize that this line was not included in the chart. In order to identify the chart the defendant himself has posted an affidavit and that is Genzken Document 12, on page 27 of my document book, and I offer it as Genzken Exhibit No. 6. I quote:
"I give the following explanation to the annexed chart 'Ding's connection with superior agencies until 31 August 1943.' I want to emphasize in this connection that I learn't details about the terms 'Block 46' and 'Block 50' only in the course of the trial.
"The typhus experimental station - Block 46- was ordered by the Reich Physician and he had appointed Ding as chief. Therefrom results the immediate subordination under the Reich Physician SS, see connecting line on the chart between Reich Physician and Block 46.
"As the typhus experimental station was established with a concentration camp, clinically using convicts with convict nurses, this station was administered by the administration of the concentration camp Buchenwald and therefore was adminis tratively under the Inspector of Concentration Camps or the Economic and Administrative Main Office, which had a medical service of its own, of which in turn the Reich Physician SS was the expert superior."
"As I know today, the prisoners, pursuant to an order by Himmler, were assigned at the beginning by the Inspector of Concentration Camps and later on by Reich Criminal Police Office itself, which for its part was a department of the Reich-Security Main Office, whose medical care again rested with the Reich Physician SS and which therefore again was under the command of the Reich Physician SS, as far as medical matters were concerned.
"Furthermore, there occasionally existed direct contact between the *** of the experimental station, Dr. Ding, and the personal staff of Himmler.
"The prerequisites for a vaccine having been created, the site for the production of vaccines was prepared in Block 50 int he course of the spring and summer of 1943 and occupied the middle of August 1943. Production itself began at the beginning of the winter of 1943 there. This production site, under the new name of "Section for Typhus and Virus Research, Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS, Weimar Ruchenwald," was officially attached to the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS in Berlin, since the vaccine produced was chiefly destined for the front troops of the Waffen SS. This name referred only to the vaccine production site.
"Ding held at the same time the combined offices of head of the production site and of the experimental station, which he on his own *** ****** included in the name 'Section for Typhus and Virus research.'" The co-defendant, Dr. Mrugowsky, has seen the chats and the affidavit by Dr. Genzken.
On page 29 of the document book, Documennt No. 13, which I offer as Genzken Exhibit #7, Dr. Mrugowsky states the following, and I quote:
"The two documents, Genzken No. 11 (Chart on Ding's connection with superior agencies, until 31 August 1943) and Genzken No. 12 (affidavit by Dr. Genzken of 13 February 1947) have been shown to me. After careful study of the two documents I acknowledge them to be correct;
they represent the real facts truly and completely." In this connection I finally offer Document Genzken #2, located on page 3 of my document book and I offer it in evidence as Genzken Exhibit 8; it is an affidavit by the former administration member of the Concentration Camp Buchenwald and it reads as follows:
"From January 1942 until the liberation of the camp on 11 April 1945 I was Head cf the administration in Buchenwald concentration camp and can make the following statement:
"I Had an insight into the administration of the Buchen wald concentration camp. I know that in Block 46 of the Buchenwald concentration camp, an experimental station for typhus was set up with Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Ding as head, in spring 1942, and that in spring 1943 it was planned to build Block 50 as a production center for the new, special SS typhus innoculation serum. This production center installed in Block 50 was named as follows: 'Department for Typhus and Virus Reseach at the Hygiene Institute, of the Waffen SS, Weimar Buchenwald.'
" I do not know *** *** this name to the institute.
"From that time, the postal address for official communications for Block 50 was given as: '"R. F. S. S. - Department for Typhus and Virus research at the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS, Weimar-Buchenwald.' I remember that before this name was adopted, that is before spring 1943, Ding, as chief of the experimental station for typhus and virus research, used the following address: 'R. F. S. S. - typhus experimental station Buchenwald.'
"I do not know whether or not the address included the designation 'Reichsarzt SS.'
"I can remember seeing letters with the above address myself.
"As Block 46 was occupied by prisoners, and the nursing staff consisted of prisoners and a Cap-, all administrative measures for the hospital of the concentration camp went through the Buchenwald camp administration.
Therefore the Medical administration of the Waffen SS (Sturmbannfuehrer Rudolf Tonnderf) and the administrative chief of the SS Fuehrungshauptant (Operational Main Office) (Franz Mueller, Standartenfuehrer of the Waffen SS) had nothing to do officially with the administration of Block 45."
signed: BARNEWALD."
May it please the Tribunal, I believe that I have shown through this evidence that this was not subordinated to the Medical Service of the Waffen SS but that it was exclusively subordinated to the ReichPhysician SS.
Q Now what was Dr. Mrugowsky's position towards the Reich Physician SS?
A Professor Mrugowsky, as the eldest hygiene expert, was at the disposal of the Reich Physician SS for special assignments.
Q How was it that the Reich Physician used for these experiments at Buchenwald, Professor Mrgowsky, who was your subordinate?
A Grawitz always tried to keep his own personal staff as small as possible. At the time a certain action by General Unruh was under way and he reorganized all the staffs and withdrew one-third to onefourth of all the personnel from these staffs and for this reason the Reich Physician tried to keep his own staff as small as possible so that he could convey tire impression to his superiors; by virtue of his authority to issue instructions he utilized members of other staffs and this is exactly what he did with my staff. He not only used Professor Mrugowsky but he used the pharmacologist, Dr. Blumenreuther and he used the dentist, Dr. Blaschke; they were working on my staff and he used them for his own special tasks and assignments. It is alleged that he did the same thing with members of other staffs.
Q Now what was your position with regard to Professor Mrugowsky?
A I was his superior within the agency in the position which he had in the Waffen-SS; I was his superior as the Chief Hygienist and the Chief of the hygienic Institute. I also was his superior for the new vaccine production establishment; that is to say, I would have been his superior. However, this never came to pass because it only began its work in December and that was at the time when I was no longer responsible.
Q And what was your relationship to Dr. Ding?
A Until his appointment as the Chief of the Experimental Station at Buchenwald I was his superior and from that period of time on my agency only paid him his salary. As I have already stated, he was Chief of the Experimental Station and he was already at that time subordinated to the Reich Physician-SS. As Chief of the production establishment for vaccine he would probably have been subordinated to me but this never really became effective.
Q And who appointed Dr. Ding's deputy?
AAs is indicated by the documents, the Reich Physician-SS Grawitz by way of the medical officer in charge of the concentration camps--he appointed Lolling as physician of Buchenwald and he appointed Ding as chief of the clinical experimental station.
Q Were you able to give such orders in the concentration camp?
AAs Chief of the Medical Service of the Waffen-SS in the Ad ministrative Main Office I did not have any medical connection with the concentration camps and the furnishing of prisoners for clinical purposes.
Q Who was able to give medical orders in the concentration camp?
A. That was the Reich Physician SS and the medical officer in charge of the concentration camps and his collaborators and the camp physicians.
Q You have previously stated within the concentration camp; did the experimental station belong to a concentration camp?
AAs has been indicated by the documents of the Prosecution, activity in Block 46 was very such connected with the activity in concentration camp.
Q What effects did this have?
AAs is shown by the files, the experimental station moved from one block to another. First it was in Block 41, then it move the Block 44 and finally moved to Block 49 and in the end it finally remained in Block 46. Then the nursing personnel in this station consisted of prisoners and also the other inmates; and the care for the food and supplies, the construction and equipment, was the business of the administrative chief of the concentration camp. This shows that the experimental station was closely connected with the administration of the camp and therefore other information has been given in the documents about conditions which prevailed among the prisoners.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
Q (By Dr. Merkel) Witness, I now turn to the affidavit of the co-defendant Dr. Hoven. This is Document Number 429, Prosecution Exhibit 281, page 1, of the Document Book Number 12 of the prosecution. It is here maintained that according to Ding's utterances you showed a special interest in typhus experiments and Ding had sent you reports on frequent occasions; is that correct?
A I think that is slightly exaggerated by Dr. Ding.
Q Dr. Hoven maintains there too that in January 1943 you had given him the order to extend the experimental station; is that correct?
A This expression "extend" is mixed up. What he meant was the approval for a new station for the production of vaccines.
Q And now a concluding question on regarding typhus. In the indictment you are charged in connection with the typhus experiments in Buchenwald and you are also charged to have known of similar experiments in Natzweiler. What do you know about that?
A I only remember the name of Natzweiler in connection with some knowledge that there was a concentration camp there. That's all. I only heard hear about experiments being conducted there.
Q Furthermore, the indictment, under 6-J, charges you with knowing about experiments on typhus, typhoid A and B, cholera and diptheria. What do you know about that?
A I did not know that any such experiments were performed.
Q And now a few more questions regarding the reports on the blood of typhus convalescents sent from various typhus stations. These are the entries 54 and 55 of Document Book 12 of the prosecution, Ding' Diary, Document Number 265, Prosecution Exhibit 287. Do you know Dr. Ellenbeck?
A Yes.
Q What do you know about his activity?
A Ellenbeck was an expert on internal medicine and a specialist in the field of blood circulation, and as such he worked in the Hygiene Institute.
Q Did you, upon the wish of Dr. Mrugowsky, furnish him with laboratory space in hospitals?
A Yes, we had very little space in the Hygiene Institute, and laboratory space was vacated in the Institute at Berlin since one laboratory there had to be evacuated, since it was demanded somewhere else.
Q And when was that?
A I think it was in the fall of 1943/
Q To whom was the personnel working there subordinated?
A It was subordinated to Ellenbeck and not the chief physician of the SS hospital in Berlin. This was a divided competency.
Q And to whom was Ellenbeck subordinated?
A He was subordinated to the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS.
Q Did you know that Ellenbeck received such typhus blood for his hospital from the concentration camp of Buchenwald?
A No, I didn't know that.
Q In the Ding Diary, on two occasions it is laid down that the blood of the convalescents was sent to the SS operational office, to Berlin to Sturmbannfuehrer Ellenbeck. How do you explain that?
A It is wrong in that form. This is merely an order to Ellenbeck composed of two orders, one directed to Amtsgruppe D. Berlin, Charleffenburg and to SS hospital Lichterfelde, and that is how this address is composed of Ellenbeck, but that isn't really correct as you put it.
Q Now, one final question. What did you know about the experiments for the production of a blood coagulation means in Dachau and phlegmen experiments in the concentration camp of Dachau?
A I only heard here for the first time about these experiments when the prosecution presented their documents.
Q You never heard anything orally or by writing?
A No.
DR. MERKEL: I have no further questions to ask the witness at the moment.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any cross examination of this witness by any defense counsel?
EXAMINATION BY DR. FRITZ: (Counsel for Rose)
Q Witness, did you have any contact with Professor Rose before the 8th of May 1945 or have any written communications with him?
A No, I didn't know Professor Rose personally at all.
Q Then you didn't discuss any points with him about the subject of the prosecution?
A No, not at all.
DR. FRITZ: No further questions.
EXAMINATION BY DR. BOEHM: (Counsel for Poppendick)
Q Dr. Genzken, can you state where the defendant Poppendick was active during the years before the war?
A Poppendick was working in the office for race and settlement as a physician and he was there before the war as a leading physician.
Q Do you know where Poppendick was from the beginning of the war until the beginning of 1941?
AAt that time he was drafted into the Army.
Q Is it correct that Poppendick, after having been recalled from the Army in 1941, again worked in the race office?
A Yes, he again became the leading physician at the race and settlement office.
Q Do you know that Poppendick, during the war, was a leading physician during that time in the race and settlement office?
A I didn't quite get your question.
Q Do you know that Poppendick during the war was the leading physician of the race and settlement office?
A That's what I told you.
Q You know the habits of the Reich physician SS and you know the office, and I therefore want to ask you whether it is correct that Dr. Grawitz had a secretary and an adjutant at his personal disposal?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Who actually was in the anteroom of Grawitz's office?
A In the anteroom there was a secretary. She was there at all times and had her desk there.
Q Is it further correct that Grawitz was in the habit of dealing with his office work himself with the help of his secretary?
A Yes, he used to deal with his work personally. He dictated all his letters personally.
Q What was Poppendick's designation after Grawitz's office was reorganized in September 1943?
A Would you repeat?
Q What was Poppendick's designation after the agency of Grawitz was reorganized in September 1943?
A He was chief of the personal office.
Q Was such a designation placed in or outside of these offices of Grawitz?
A No, I never read it.
Q After that period of time, that is, after September 1943 did you notice any changes which could indicate that a special office was furnished under the leadership of Poppendick?
A No.
Q In the correspondence of the Reich Physician SS, as far as it came to your knowledge, did you see the designation, personal office or chief of personal office, be it as a letterhead, be it as a signature, or any other way?
A No, I never read that. I never read it in any correspondence.
Q Now, if, after the time of 1943 Grawitz sent you any official correspondence did they have a notation made by Poppendick or who made notes on these letters?
AAll the letters from Grawitz were signed by Grawitz himself are not by Poppendick.
Q Then, according to what you noticed after the fall of 1943, no change occurred with reference to the correspondence of Grawitz or any other of his office activity in comparison to the time that went before?
A No, I had no impression that any change occurred.
Q Was there any change in the anteroom or did the secretary of Grawitz still continue to work there?
A The secretary always worked there and whenever she wasn't present the adjutant took her place.
Q Was Poppendick present during the discussions which you had with Grawitz?
A Grawitz always received me personally.
Q Was Poppendick sort of a personal adjutant of Grawitz?
A No, he had an adjutant. He certainly was not. Well, Poppendick was not an adjutant of the Reichsarzt Grawitz.
Q Thank you. Did Poppendick exercise any functions which were in accordance with the task of a chief of staff? Did he perhaps have authority to sign for him or any similar authority?
A No.
Q Is it correct that Poppendick, since 1943 and 1944, had volunteered for front commitment.
A Yes, yes, he approached me.
Q Do you know whether Poppendick subsequently was assured of being committed at the front?
A Yes, Grawitz assured him of that.
Q But why was that continually postponed?
A The war had advanced and the commanders of the divisions, whenever a successor was necessary, tried to get such a successor from the already existing personnel in their army division. The divisional commanders knew about Poppendick and they were aware that he had no experience with troops on the basis of his activity and certainly no experience at the eastern front.
Q Did you ever speak to Poppendick about any experiments on human beings which are the subject of the indictment?
A No, we never discussed that.
DR. BOEHM: Thank you. I have no further questions.
DR. KRAUSS: Mr. President, please permit me to put two questions to the witness.
EXAMINATION BY DR. KRAUSS: (Counsel for Rostock)
Q Witness, did Professor Rostock in his capacity as leader of the office of science and research with the Reich commissioner for health and medical services have a right of supervision or a duty of supervision in medical research matters, and that with reference to the institutions of the SS?
A Friday I already stated that Professor Brandt had been told by Himmler, as I had learned from Professor Grawitz's utterances, that Brandt would have nothing to do with any affairs belonging to the medical service of the SS, and from that one can conclude that Professor Rostock as a Collaborator of Professor Brandt would have acted in accordance with that order.
Q In that case you would say that if that order was true of Professor Brandt it must have been true of Professor Rostock?
A Yes.
Q Witness, did Professor Rostock at any time issue directives to the medical office of the SS?
A No, I never received any directives from him and I had never any official contact with Professor Rostock, either verbally or by way of writing.
DR. KRAUSS: Thank you. Mr. President, I have no further questions.
DR. FLEMMING (for the defendant Mrugrowsky.):
Q. Witness, Dr. Mrugrowsky was active in your medical office as Departmental Chief of the Department of Hygiene. Was he an export in your office?
A Yes.
Q. How was the official contact between you and Mrugowsky?
A. Mrugrowsky took part during all the discussions with experts. He reported on his official trips and official correspondence, and reported his experience, and I, accordingly, issued orders or directives whatever had to be done in reference to the bad state of Hygiene or contagious diseases. During such occasions I also ordered him to carry out official trips.
Q. Had Professor Mrugowsky and opportunity to carry out such measures in the Hygiene field on his own initiative, in the field of the Waffen SS, measures which he considered to be corrected?
A. He made suggestions as they referred to his special field, then transferred it to me and according to my judgement, gave orders which I then issued for the troops. He only had authority to issued orders in the capacity as Chief of the Institute and within its field of Hygiene.
Q. You said, that within his sphere of office, as Hygienest, he had authority to issue orders?
A. Well, he had collaborators and he could issue orders to them, and that was especially true in his institute, the Hygiene Institute.
Q. But, otherwise, he could not have carried out any measures on the Hygiene Field in the SS which he seemed to be corrected?
A. He always had to go over my military authority.
Q. Now, with reference to the other organizations of the SS;