for instance, concentration camps or other organizations which were subordinated to the medical office of the WaffenSS, could he carry out any measures on his own initiative if he thought they should be corrected?
A. No, there you had the same situation; he had no authority to issue orders.
Q. Did the authority to issue orders with regard to Mrugrowsky change when he was subordinated to Grawitz up to 1st September 1943?
A. No, he always remained the expert; he had no authority to issue orders.
Q. In his capacity as Chief of the Institute, did Mrugrowsky often go on official trips?
A. Yes, he often went on trips to the front.
Q. Were his trips to be approved at all times by you?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember one such official trip, when he went to Schanau, to the East, which was approved for June and July 1942, and from which he returned after a considerable delay?
A. Yes, I remember this incident because this was the only time when I had to be energetic toward him. I think isn't we agreed that he would given a foreign trips and he only returned in August. And, at that time I reprimanded him, and he, as an excuse, said he had stayed with some command from Prussia, but I expected him to make a report and that was the reason I was annoyed.
Q. You said that he returned in August. Do you remember whether that was the beginning or the middle or the end of August?
A. I don't remember that incident. This entire trip -- he must have returned at the end of August, yes.
Q. Did you ever feel that Mrugrowsky wanted to get your position as Medical Chief of the Waffen-SS?
A. No, that is not correct.
Q. Did Mrugrowsky become a bacteriologist and hygienist in the Waffen-SS after being completely skilled in that field?
A. Yes, he went as a completely educated expert to our department.
Q. Did he have to thank the SS for any additional education and training in bacteriology and hygiene?
A. No.
Q. What was the way in which Mrugrowsky worked in this institute?
A. In accordance with his ways and mannerisms, he went about his work very energetically. He personally showed great interest in it, and whenever he issued any orders he saw to it that they were carried out and supervised the order.
Q. Who was Mrugrowsky's representatives in the Hygiene Institute whenever he was absent?
A. It was some Hygienest there, but that often varied because the Hygienest of his institute were used for front matters.
Q. What was the official relationship of Mrugrowsky to Grawitz? Was he in any close connection with him?
A. No, one can hardly say that. It was no personal relationship at all.
Q. Did he give Grawitz orders at any time?
A. I don't know anything about that.
Q. Do you know his opinion about the work and the conception of the work of Grawitz?
A. Yes, there was a differences of opinion there. Grawitz's manners were such that he interfered in all possible affairs and put his personality into the foreground under all circumstances, where Mrugrowsky did much material work and did not make so much fuss about his activities and personality.
Q. Do you know how Grawitz limited the scope of work of Mrugrowsky when he took him over with the Hygienic Institute in 1943?
A. If I remember, I learned from Blumenreuther, that was the Chief Pharmacist who had the Pharmaceutical office in the agency of the SS, then he had explained to Mrugrowsky that nothing would be changed in his work; that he would further remain the Chief of the Hygiene Institute, and as up to the present, he would, be as he said, loosely connected to them.
Q. Did Mrugowsky take part in the inter-life, so-called, of the Grawitz Agency?
A. Mrugowsky, had his office in the Hygiene Institute which was outside at Schlachtensee, a western suburb of Berlin, and he did not participate in the meetings at the agency of the Reichsarzt, and as far as I know, he had no office at all in the agency of the Reichsarzt.
Q. Did Mrugowsky have anything to do with the German Red Cross?
A. No.
Q. Did he have any personal connections to Himmler?
A. No, I don't know anything about that.
Q. Did he have any personal connections to Conti?
A. No, I don't know anything about that.
Q. Do you know that Himmler, in the year 1942 or 1943, demanded that Mrugowsky should change his name which had a Polish sound, and do you know what Mrugowsky's attitude toward that was?
A. Yes, it is correct that he was approached with such a demand, and he, as I understand it, managed not to realize that wish.
Q. You know the basis of the presentation of the Prosecution, and on the basis of the trial here, the extent of the typhus experiments in Buchenwald. Could Mrugowsky, at any time, have made demands on his own initiative to get the inmates of the concentration camps for purposes of typhus experiments.
A. No, he couldn't have done that. He had nothing to do with that.
Q. Did Mrugowsky have any possibility to order the typhus experiments in Buchenwald upon his own initiative, or could he have had the possibility, on his own initiative, to see to it that these were dropped?
A. On the basis of his position in the medical office and in the SS operational office, he had no authority inside the concentration camps, and had nothing to do with the entire administration of inmates, and he had no business interfering.
Q. When you were examined by the Defense Counsel, you stated that in the English imprisonment camp Neuengamme, experiments were carried out on prisoners of war with influenza vaccine, Did I understand you correctly?
A. Yes, these were, new influenza vaccines. It was told to me personally by the English physician.
Q. Were you personally vaccinated too?
A. No, I had to compile the vaccination list. Three thousand were demanded and a number of people were to be vaccinated and a number of people were to be left alone. Altogether there were 1700, I think, of which 850 were vaccinated and 850 were not.
Q. Were you, at that time, considered with volunteers, who had given their approval?
A. No, these 850, I had to select them from the camp and I had to put them at the disposal for this purpose, so it was not on a volunteer basis.
Q. Were you concerned with a vaccine of living or dead bacteria?
A. The English physician didn't tell me that.
Q. Did the experimental subject enjoy and advantages with reference to nourishment or anything else?
A. No.
Q. Was there a danger of an epidemic in the camp at that time?
A. The camp was greatly over crowded. Ten to twelve thousand people were in the camp and afterwards only eight thousand. I don't know whether these figures are quite correct with reference to the time when they were vaccinated.
Q. At any rate - may I interrupt you. Would you say that any danger would have existed on the basis of this over-crowded condition? My question was: Do you know whether at that time there was any acute danger of an epidemic of influenza for any reason?
A. No, no cases of influenza had appeared, not to any large extent.
DR. MERKEL: Thank you. I have no further questions.
DR. GAWLIK: Counsel for the defendant, Hoven.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Witness, during the examination by your defense counsel you stated the following: As can be seen from the document the Reichsarzt SS, in accordance with the leading physician of the concentration camp appointed the representative of Dr. Ding. I am now asking you witness, what do you know from your own knowledge by whom Dr. Hoven was appointed as the representative for the experimental station at Block 49?
A. I didn't know at all that Dr. Hoven was the Deputy or was assigned or appointed to be a Deputy, and I don't know anything about Block 46. I emphasized that I know that from the files and I think Dr. Kogan testified to that effect, namely that the Reichsarzt had appointed you as the camp physician of Buchenwald as the man in charge of the medical service of the concentration camps.
Q. Well in order to clarify that point I am merely basing your statement on what you have stated here.
A. That is what I said at the time.
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: The Prosecution may cross-examine the witness:
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Dr. Genzken, you entered the Waffen SS as a sturmbannfuehrer voluntarily on March 1st, 1936, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. On what date did you become the Chief Medical Officer of all concentration camps?
A. That must have been in the spring of 1937.
Q. And you remained in that capacity until 1940, is that correct?
A. 1939.
Q. Now your title at that time was Chief Medical Officer of the SS, Death-head Units in Concentration Camps, was it not?
A. I didn't quite get that.
Q. You bore the title at that time, that is between 1937 and 1939 of Chief Medical Officer of the SS Death-Head Units in Concentration Camps, did you not?
A. The situation was the following: In the medical office of the SS there were two medical Departments. I was the chief of that second medical department. The second medical department dealt with the supplying of concentration camps material and the supplying of personnel. In this position I was
Q. We will get to that in a moment. I am coming to that. During the period that you held this position, your title was Chief Medical Officer of the SS Death-head Units in Concentration Camps, wasn't it. That was the way you signed your name on all correspondence, was it not? Yes or no, doctor?
A. No.
Q. And all concentration camp brigades at that time were under Eicke, were they not?
A. Yes, there were no concentration camp brigades, and I certainly wasn't the Chief Medical Officer of the Concentration Camp Brigades. I merely said I was the consulting chief of Eicke within the medical service and he was the inspector of the concentration camps.
Q. And you also headed one of the two departments of the SS Medical Service and you were charged with supplying medical equipment and the supervision of medical personnel in the concentration camps, isn't that true?
A. Yes.
Q. Well in that capacity you were subordinated to Dr. Grawitz, is that right?
A. Yes, he was the Chief of the SS Medical Department.
A. Well now in summation, between 1937 and 1939 you were subordinate to Grawitz on the one hand and to Eicke on the other, weren't you?
A. Yes, I was his consulting physician. My department far instance was in Berlin, whereas Eicke's agency was outside in Oranienburg where he had his department.
Q. Now, wasn't this Eicke a fabulous character? Can you tell us something about Eicke?
A. Eicke had been active with the Navy during the first world war and in some treasury capacity. He must have been a paymaster as far as I remember. He came from a career as a civil servant. He had a strong inclination toward being a leader of troops, an office. In the General SS he was in charge of the unit there as far as I remember. He was an energetic, active, dynamic character. He was a worker who did much during day's work and from the point of view of his being a superior I always had the impression that he was just towards his subordinates. He always acted very energetic and severely whenever something went wrong or wasn't done right.
Q. What happened to Eicke, doctor?
A. At the outbreak of the war Eicke became a divisional commander, activated a division and lived through the Western campaign with that division. After the Western campaign this division was committed in the East and after approximately six months he was wounded there. He stayed at the Sachsenhausen in Berlin when he was wounded, but in spite of having a bone injury which hadn't healed yet, he went back to his division at the front, and after having been committed in the northern part of the Eastern front he was transferred to the central part, and there during an intelligence trip was shot down by the Russians and fell there.
Q. Well now during Eicke's time as head of the concentration camp, wasn't he the gentleman who handled extermination of Jews within the framework of the concentration camps?
A. I know nothing at that time about any extermination actions that were carried out in concentration camps and I am sure that was not case.
Q. You mean to tell me, doctor, you didn't know they were exterminating Jews in concentration camps as early as January, 1939? As a matter of fact they were doing it in 1937 and 1938?
A. I know nothing about that.
Q. Didn't Eicke have another program whereby he accomplished his extermination by working the inmates to death, and this he referred to as "extermination through work". Haven't you ever heard of that either?
A. No, this is a completely strange matter which I am hearing here for the first time. In my time conditions in concentration camps were absolutely in good order as far as hygiene was concerned and cleanliness. All the inmates had their bed rooms, their by rooms. He had a mess kit. He had cabinet space for his clothing. Commission come there from the Red Cross and from the Army who were really surprised about the cleanliness and order in the concentration camps. I know nothing about anything you are telling me and I certainly didn't make any such observations.
Q. You were responsible for the physical condition of the inmates within the concentration camps at that time, weren't you?
A. Yes, the camp physicians were under my jurisdiction.
Q. How many concentration camps were under your jurisdiction, doctor
A. Up to the outbreak of the war, there was Schenhausen, Dachau - those were the two eldest. Then in 1938 Buchenwald was added. In 1938, Mauthausen and Flossenbrueck, and shortly before the war, Neuengamme. That was only a little camp with same brick work adjoining it. These are the camps which, according to my memory, were known to me.
Q. Now, about how many people were incarcerated in the concentration camps at that time - in total?
A. I can't give you the total figure.
Q. About 50,000?
A. Naturally, whenever I wanted to know the figure I didn't receive a reply. I can only estimate. On the basis of the number of patients that were there I estimate that there were approximately eight to ten thousand people in Dachau which I think was the maximum number of people that could be kept in Dachau - perhaps eight thousand or less. In Sachenhausen the figure may have been a little higher - perhaps one or two thousand more. Buchenwald was just being activated.
Q. How many deaths did you have a year in each concentration camp?
A. I can't remember the figure. The mortality figures in our clinical institution, which were instituted in the concentration camps - they were called hospital blocks - were absolutely within the limits of any normal hospital or clinical institution.
Q. Now, doctor, you seem to be a little bit vague about some of these things. Wasn't it your duty to physically examine the inmates in these camps wasn't it the duty of the camp physicians who were your subordinates to examine those inmates at various intervals, particularly whenever you had such a thing as a transfer of several hundred inmates from one camp to another? Wasn't it necessary for you to examine those people to see if they were physically able to travel?
A. Well, I didn't personally make these examinations. I had certain supervisory duty.
That is, to inspect the camps, and I know that the camp physicians examined every one who was taken into the camp. This was recorded this certificate of health - and as far as I know went into the personnel files of the people concerned.
Q. Now, as a matter cf fact, it was your job to submit medical reports to Eicke and Grawitz monthly, wasn't it?
A. As far as I remember, monthly reports were made as it was done with fighting units.
Q. Well, now, do you maintain, doctor, that during the time that you were chief medical officer of these concentration camps that the camps were somewhat similar to a Boy Scout health camp? That there weren't any conditions of filth, death? Everything was just nice, was it?
A. I can only say that I exercised my right of inspection. For instance, I had no pass which enabled me to enter the camp at any time. Whenever I wanted to visit and inspect the concentration camp I had to receive a pass from the inspector. I had to pass that to the commander of the camp and only then could I enter the camp. Whenever I went there it was in perfect order. I never saw anything which was in any way similar to what you seem to indicate.
Q. Did they conduct you on your inspection? You didn't have a free hand? You could not walk around as you wished?
A. Most of the time the camp commander accompanied me whenever I went around the camp. Within the area of the hospital I stayed with the camp physician. I mostly inspected the kitchen in the camp which was hygienically equipped with boiling equipment, various pots, various rooms for preparing of potatoes and vegetables, ice boxes. Then I inspected the laundries where the laundry was taken care of and I also inspected the housing facilities. They were always in order. The beds were well constructed, ventilation was in order, and that is the impression I always gained of the camps.
Q. You're sure that you were inspecting the concentration camp and not the SS barracks within the camp - not the SS officers' quarters and the particular section of the camp in which the SS troops were quartered? Did you go into the inner camp on these inspection trips?
A. As I just stated, I reported to the camp commander who accompanied me. My inspection always ended at the hospital through which I was led by the camp physician. In the hospital there were clinical departments, operational theaters, everything modernly equipped with operational tables, X-ray department. There was a bathing department with electrical bathing facilities. There were various rest rooms, springs on operational beds, and I was caring for the inmates better than for the men working in the front lines. That is what I can tell you about my inspection trips to concentration camps.
Q. Well now, doctor, I assume that you know or that you realize the conditions existing in the camps during your time. It was a matter of common knowledge even in America. Now, it is also my understanding that even the unspeakable Oswald. Pohl had some misgivings about the conditions of the camps during your time. At the time when he was to take over the economic administration he wasn't particularly satisfied with some of the things that were going on under Eicke. How do you justify this attractive description you give of the conditions of the camps in your time when you haven't got a shred of evidence to prove that was true?
A. The time of Pohl was in 1942. I was speaking about the time 1937 to 1939. I know that Pohl took over the camps in the Spring of 1942.
Q. That is correct.
A. My descriptions are true of the time of 1937 to 1939. That is peace time.
Q. Well, now, doctor, in May, 1940 ...............
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I'm going on to another subject. If you wish to adjourn for the noon recess at this time it would be appropriate.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:30.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 3 March 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. the Tribunal is again in session.
KARL GENZKEN) - Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION (Cont'd.)
BY MR. HARDY:
Q Dr. Genzken, in May 1940 you were appointed Chief of the Medical Office of the Waffen SS, that is Office No. 7, is that correct?
A It must have been in June. In June the Waffen SS was established and also the SS Administrative Main Office and during this period of time the Medical Office of the Waffen SS became a branch of the Medical Office of the SS and it was administered by the SS Medical Office. This was in June 1940.
Q Then when were you appointed Chief of Medical Service of the Waffen SS, that is, what is considered to be Amtsgruppe D?
AAmtsgruppe D was established later. In the SS Administrative Main Office, 4 office groups were compiled from the various offices and afterwards this was dropped for the first three Amtsgruppen and inspectorates were established instead. In my office one Amtsgruppe remained in existence and consisted of 4 offices, the first office was for medical service, the second for dental service, the third for the pharmaceutical service and the fourth for the hygienic service.
Q Well, now, what was Amt 13?
AAmt 13 was the medical service.
Q Who headed this office?
A It was directed by various men. In the beginning Dr. Fehrensen was in charge and he was killed at the end of the war. He was succeeded by Dr. Berndt and in June 1943 he went to the SS Main Office, to Berger, as his personal physicians; and Dr. Hoch was there for a short period of time, and this was in the fall of 1943, and from that time on it was a reserve physician, Dr. Bliess. These men were in charge of the Office for the Medical Service.
Q Now what was Amt 14?
A That was for the dental service.
Q And Amt 15?
A That was the pharmaceutical service.
Q Who headed that amt?
A Before August 1943 it was Dr. Blumenreuter; he was succeeded by a young pharmacist, Dr. Rudolphy, and at the end he was succeeded by a Dr. Loehning.
Q Now Amt 16?
AAmt 16 was the hygienic service.
Q And that was at one time headed by yourself, wasn't it? Did you head that yourself in the beginning, or was Mrugowsky always the chief of that department?
AAfter the campaign in the West, Mrugowsky came; after he had been the chief of a medical company he returned to Berlin and then he was chief of the Hygiene Institute. At the same time her was also in charge of the hygienic service in my office; I myself was unable to be in charge of that because I have never been a hygienist and I have never received any specialized training for that.
Q Well, then, these 4 Amts, that is, Amt 13, 14, 15, and 16, were all under Amtsgruppe D, of which you were the Chief, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And the various chiefs of these departments, Amts 13, 14, 15, and 16, were subordinated to you, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q You had the authority to issue orders to the chiefs of those various departments, I presume?
A Yes.
Q Well, now, prior to August 1943, that is, when you had the reorganization, the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS was subordinated to Amt 16, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q You had authority to issue orders in that direction until August 1943, did you not?
A Yes, for the Hygiene Institute.
Q Now Mrugowsky was definitely your subordinate until August 1943, wasn't he?
A Yes, as Chief of the Hygiene Institute and as Office Chief for the Office of Hygiene, that is Office 16.
Q How about Dr. Ding-Schuler?
A Ding-Schuler was subordinated to me until his appointment as Chief of the experimental Station by the Reich Physician SS, Dr. Grawitz. And from that time on my agency only had to take care of his expenses because he had been attached to another agency and then when no budget existed for the new place to which he was attached we had to take care of his expenses and that applied in this case.
Q Well, now, you have stated that until August 1943 the Hygiene institute of the Waffen SS was under your control. Now, as a matter of fact, wasn't the Experimental Station at Buchenwald a Hygiene Station of the Waffen SS?
A No, this was ordered by Grawitz and it was an experimental station that was connected with the Research Institute of the Reich Physician within the Concentration Camp Buchenwald. I, as Chief of the Medical Service of the Waffen SS and as leader in the SS Administrative Main Office, was not able to give any orders in that field.
Q Just a minute, Doctor. Dr. Mrugowsky was the superior of Dr. Ding-Schuler, was he not?
A Mrugowsky was the consulting hygienist for this case in which the Reich Physician SS had consulted with him.
Q You mean after August 1943?
A No, even before that time. Dr. Ding, from the moment he was attached to the experimental station at Buchenwald, had become a subordinate of the Reich Physician SS, Dr. Grawitz; that was his direct superior.
Q What was the title of the experimental station at Buchenwald? Wasn't it the Experimental Station of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS?
AAccording to the diary, where I have obtained this knowledge, and on the page which contains my name, it is stated by Dr. Ding that from the "Experimental Station" the name was changed to "Department for Typhus and Virus Research, SS Medical Office of the Waffen SS, WeimarBuchenwald." However, that was the name for the production establishment which Dr. Kogan has stated here in his testimony, which mas completely separated from the experimental station. Dr. Kogan stated that Dr. Ding was the Chief of the Experimental station and that he was Chief of Block 50 which only became a production establishment after August 1943 and which was to belong to the Hygiene Institute. As I have already stated this morning, it is a contrast in itself that this production establishment was in Block 50 but where no research was carried out and only production and that this was called Department for Virus and Typhus Research; Dr. Kogan has himself stated that this was done in copying the title of the Krakow Institute which belong to the Army which was also a research institute and which also was at the same time a production establishment.
Q Well, now, Doctor, we will get to the typhus experiments more explicitly later and I think that the Ding Diary will show that this was the hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS Experimental Station and no other. How about Dr. Gebhardt? He was your subordinate for some time, wasn't he?
A. As I have already stated Dr. Gebhardt, when he took over his position had a special confidential relationship with Himmler.
Q. However, he was your subordinate, wasn't he?
A. He was Chief of the Institute Hohenlychen. Gebhardt had a similar position with Restock. He was Chief of the University Clinic, and at the time he was Medical Officer in the Army and Gebhardt was over the Civilian Institute of Hohenlychen, and he was also in the same research status in the Waffen SS, and since he had already been a friend of Himmlers at an earlier period of time, he was in closer relationship to Himmler.
Q. Now, Doctor, I have asked you a question and you haven't answered yet. I think Dr. Gebhardt will take the stand and testify he at one time was your subordinate; new, I will ask you, at one time wasn't Dr. Gebhardt at some time to some degree your subordinate; was he or wasn't he?
A. At sometime, no.
Q. How about 1940, in 1940 was he your subordinate?
A. He was in the same position. There was a civilian department at Hohenlychen. There was a hospital department of the Army with about 400 beds, and also a smaller section in which the wounded from the SS were placed, and in regard to this Department, if you want to call that a subordination, but that did not play any major part, it was just that our wounded from the SS were placed into this civilian institute. The Hohenlychen Institute would not be subordinate me, because it was his private position there.
Q. In regard to Hoven, I take it Hoven was not your subordinate insofar as he was attached to the experimental station under Dr. Ding and under Mrugowsky at Buchenwald.
A. Hoven has never been subordinated to me. As Dr. Kogon has stated, Dr. Hoven became deputy of Dr. Ding in the Station of Grawitz, and as especially stated for the clinical station, and I did not have any official supervision or contact at all with that particular hospital.
Q. Are you sure, Doctor, that Dr. Ding or Mrugowsky didn't come to you at one time and tell you it would be necessary to have a deputy appointed to Dr. Ding at Buchenwald when he made trips, that it would be necessary to have someone in charge, and you approved that recommendation and said Dr. Hoven could carry on the work of Dr. Ding?
Don't you remember that?
A. That I cannot remember at all. Is that supposed to have some through my person and my agency?
Q. That is my understanding, Doctor, as a result of the Fuehrer's Decree of July 28, 1942, you became subordinated to Dr. Handloser, didn't you, insofar as the troops over which you had jurisdiction were on the front?
A. This subordination to Professor Handloser was caused by the division at the front of the Waffen SS, which had been assigned to the Army. The division of physicians of these camps were subordinated to the Army physicians of the Army Group Medical officers. They were subordinated to the Medical Inspectorate of the Army or Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service. However, as far as the troops at home were concerned, there was no relationship of subordination to Professor Handloser.
Q. Now, assume Professor Handloser issued and order to you, as Chief of the Medical Service of the Waffen SS, what weight would you give it?
A. It depends to what this order referred. It could only refer to matters which had some connection with the SS Division at the front. With the troops at home or in the hospitals at home, or any other Institute, Dr. Handloser could not give me any orders whatsoever, in that connection. And in practice such an order was never given.
Q. But then under the circumstances you state that as outlined by yourself, that is these limitations you have made, it was possible that if Handloser issued an order to you that you would give it considerable weight, wouldn't you?
A. This order could only refer to the matters at the front, and then it had to go through Army channels. To what extent the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service could give orders to the Army Medical Inspectorate, this question has already previously been discussed here. However, from the Army Medical Inspectorate the order had to get to the divisional medical officers, to the Corps Army Medical Officer and would be there and that would have been the channel of command, and of course he would have received a copy of such an order.
That is he opposite way as it is used in the way of submitting monthly reports from the SS divisions. The monthly reports about the patients went, the original to the Army or Corps Medical Officer of the Army, and I received a copy of that, and that would be exactly the opposite way.
Q. New, isn't it true, Doctor, that matters concerning the budget of Medical Research in your department or in the Waffen SS were initiated by Mrugowsky, and were passed on to you and you in turn passed them on to Mueller in Department "4", where they were finally sent to Oswald Pohl, in the WVHA, and Pohl allotted the amount of money requested; isn't that the procedure through which you went in order to receive funds for no medical research?
A. I have seen two different budgets during the War; they were compiled by my agency and submitted to the Reich Physician SS, and as far as science and research is concerned, they were concerned in the budget plan. I have seen that before the document, which was presented to the Tribunal here, and it must have been in 1941 or 1942. A number of budgets were set up for such institutes and they were included in the budget, and this was discussed in a meeting at the Ministry of Finance. I also attended this meeting, and it came from Pohl's main agency, the WVHA. Then Obergruppenfuehrer Frank was also present, and on the part of the Ministry of Finance, the man who attended that meeting, this scientific request with regard to the institute and the budgets far the medical matters, was turned down; and as a result of this meeting I believe that this resulted in the document which has been presented here by the prosecution, and at that time I had to turn to the Reich Research Council in order to clarify the matter. This clearly indicates, in my opinion, how the channels were with regard to the budgets.
Q. Now, Doctor, suppose Mrugowsky desired funds to carry on some research which he deemed important; new, he initiates a request for these funds, and it was necessary for him to pass on that request to you, wasn't it?
A. I cannot remember that this has happened in practice, but if we assume that this was the case, that something was needed by the Hygienic Institute, then this had to go through the administration of the SS leader main office, to which this institute belonged until 1943.
Q. Is that the office of Mueller in Department "4"?
A. That is in Department 4 of the SS Administration Office, and Standartenfuehrer Mueller.
Q. And then it went to Pohl after it went to Mueller in the WVHA, and Pohl allotted the funds?
A. I do not know the other procedure past Mueller, out after the budget was approved by the Finance Ministry it probably was in the hands of Pohl. As far as I know from 1942 on he did not make any new budgets and did not make any new budgets in the course of the war, but it is true Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl was he Reich Finance Minister who allotted the money.
Q. Now, Doctor, it has taken me 5 minutes to get the answer. Isn't it true that matters concerning the budget went to Mrugowsky and were then passed on there and passed on to Mueller in Department 4 and finally were sent to Pohl in the WVHA, and Pohl allotted the money? I wish you would be more brief and stop going around the barn -
A. May I point out a mistake? As far as Mrugowsky initiated these things it only applied to the Institute.
That was outside my field of competence, but it did not go over Mueller, but if Grawitz had any incident to establish them Grawitz probably passed these matters on directly to Pohl, because he did not have any main office. But you just made the mistake, hat you stated Mrugowsky had initiated these things. I only stated that the things which referred to the Hygiene Institute Mrugowsky would pass them on through me to Mueller, not anything else, with regard to science an research. These were for the Reich Physician, and he had his own staff to handle these matters.