After all 60 had been gathered together, you probably picked out the worst cases. They have scars without any secondary damage. But they are not endangered from the infection. It is very difficult to say how is the damage judged here. One can leave the impression up to the layman. One can have the patient describe it himself, or if it is to be useful scientifically for later generations, one can keep documents for evidence to future generations.
German judicial procedure requires the person expressing an opinion to be very clear here. It distinguishes between a limitation of the working capacity of the human being in percentage, and, on the other hand, the court not the person expressing, the opinion nor the patient - but the court considers what suffering he has undergone. It is not so that the cosmetic concept is recognized, but I can understand that in such an exceptional case where non-volunteers were forced to submit to this, - I did not force them, but the German State did - today as patriots they are asked for their opinion. I may express myself as expert in my own case only to this extent, that it seems to me to be going a little too far to say to me the patients would rather have died because as women they would have a bid scar.
For twenty-five years I worked with disabled persons. If there is any concept, it is that a person with the most horrible scars, the most horribly disfigured who is a burden on his surroundings absolutely wants to stay alive if he is any position to reach a decision, and then there is an important concept which may not be omitted, whether the damage can be repaired in the long run.
In modern surgery we have advanced so far that any muscle damage which is cosmetic damage can be compensated for at least to the extent that the scar deformity can be compensated for by moving the muscle down from above. That must be mentioned because the cosmetic conditions can definitely be improved.
If you will permit me I should say that the first group suffered no damage at all; that the second group had their abscesses and scars without any important loss, no interference with their performance or their appearance, but do have a scar. On most serious examination the damage is under fifteen per cent, and perhaps I might tell the Tribunal under the German concept 33-1/3 per-cent is a total loss of the knee joint, the most important joint of the human being, and 50 to 60 per-cent for the loss of a limb. In the third group as I shall show in individual cases, this is the characteristic of the course of the case according to fate.
The most serious case was Kusmirzuk. She was from group 3-A without the gangrene; and, as I have demonstrated, and Broel-Plater, who mas from the most serious group in which the ones died. If Kusmirzuk has twenty-five per-cent, then Plater is not fifteen% and what was the damage? They sacrificed the diseased muscle, and you can see from the two cases scar present in detail that the incision near the joint, that is the one at the top part of the knee joint, and the one at the ankle was the only real danger for the patient, that the abscess might go deep into the joint and destroy the joint, so that the patient would be unable to walk, and that the whole body might be poisoned, which did not occur there. That this did not happen in any of the cases was a reference to the nerve question. Professor Alexander discussed it with me and at the last we came to the same decision, but I may repeat it because it can easily be misunderstood for a layman. The nerve is a cable which runs into the muscle and now a nerve can be destroyed in two ways, either the nerve is injured at the top of the cable, and then that is serious and cannot be repaired or the muscle, the organ to which the cable is attached, as in this case, is in part removed, or a scar is caused, and has grown first to the foundation, and the circulation is interfered with, and then the nerve has only a limited value, and for years and decades it will recover through massage, and these ankle parts which you have seen are certain to have impaired the function of the foot, but that is no nerve damage.
That can be very easily proved, because a good surgeon would not have performed an operation using the muscle supplying in part the same nerve, and in the second place Dr. Alexander from the very beginning was of this opinion because he omitted the electrical nerve damage, which is the only decisive method. It can clearly be seen that the muscle no longer moves and that the poor woman did suffer damage. The important thing in experiments, not because they are my experiments, is that the experts say they are influenced by the cosmetic aspect. On the other hand one can say that the important thing of a disease is the concealing aspect which is not easily recognized or a total loss. On the other hand large parts of muscles have to be sacrificed in these cases, but the lives of these patients were saved by so doing, and it was even so that the joint was not affected. There is not a single case where any joint was in the least affected. Of course, every person has a large group of muscles and if only ten per-cent is destroyed, he can stand on this log, if the joint is destroyed, if part of the joint is missing or if the limb is amputed, then he is much more seriously restricted.
Giving a full critical view of the situation which I shall describe in detail and with the strictest point of view towards myself and the consciousness that this opinion will be later read by other doctors, I am of the opinion first, in view of mortality, if I take only twelve of the cases where the muscle was tied off and the cases of gangrene, then three of them died to my certain experience. That is twenty-five per-cent, a result unknown in gangrene therapy, but I have taken the liberty of proving that all thirty-six other women should be included because they were not infected with gangrene among other things and with contact materials, and some of them could have died too, in spite of all of our efforts. I believe one can put the twenty-five per-cent in parenthesis with the thirty-six others, which gives you a percentage of death of five to six per-cent. I believe that there was no other case as serious as Kuxmirzuk.
I do not recall any such case. I gave them all to the same place and they will probably be present here. The highest damage was thirty per-cent and the lowest fifteen or less. There are serious muscle defects which for therapeutic reasons were carried out to save the joints; there were no amputations. To this decisive point with the understanding of the Tribunal I shall give a very clear explanation: I assert that my orders for the experiments were so complete and thought out so thoroughly from a scientific point of view that aside from matters of fate they could not have been better. I further assert that all therapeutic care humanly possible for these people, all measures for protecting their lives, were first considered, if I doubted whether I should emphasize the scientific assignment or the protection of the people, if I put the groups next to each other and ask you to consider the preliminary experiments to get a quite clear clinical condition, the 36 women with contact material and resting of wounds, so that the abscesses could achieve only a certain extent, and if at last I take the cases where muscles were tied off, and determine exactly where the infection had to occur at a known place to a known extent, immediately accessible to operation, I believe that those are the three most important things to prove, that I contend I acted decently from a scientific or human point of view. On the other hand I know that I will have to prove these three statements and I can change the conditions of the experiments. In transition from the second to the third group, after a long consideration, I kept resting the wounds, as the most normal and secure. I did not permit any motion which would drive the germs further in, and cause the gangrene to break out at a place unknown to me. I used the method of tying off the muscle. I ask the Court since I am interested only in the events of this decisive point, to give me a chance in a simple way in an experiment on myself, that if I make an incision at the same place, but introduce the same infection at the same place as was done to these women, and then move it, that is, not rest it, gangrene will break out on my leg, but not at the intended place as in all of this group, but somewhere else on my leg, and I ask you in this desperate situation without any assistance from outside to permit this experiment because I believe I will thus be able to show the most essential point of our whole work. - 4067 A. (continued) Up to now gangrene has been combated only by surgical measures.
That is, an abscess which arises somewhere with its surrounding membrane could never be influenced by chemical means from the outside, but by passing on the sulfonamide by electrical means into the abscess, as Fischer worked it out, I am convinced with any luck the abscess will stop abruptly. I do not need to add that, in my opinion, I ask for this purely as proof for my reputation and my work without any calculation or advantage or other benefit.
DR. SEIDD: Mr. President, in view of the last statement of the defendant Gebhardt I shall submit an application in writing to the Tribunal.
Q. Witness, the first witness here before the Court was a Polish citizen, Karoleska. I shall have you show photographs which the prosecution submitted as Exhibit No. 11. This is Document NO 1081 and 1081b. To which group did this witness belong?
A. Karoleska was operated on 14 August 1942. Then she would belong to this so-called second group with thirty-six women where incisions were made and contact materials introduced. She was operated on again on the 6th of September by secondary incision and now she has this healed scar. No damage to the nerves. No interruption to the joint. That is, injuries of 15 to 20 percent, if one speaks in favor of the patient. When the Court considers what the patient had to suffer and how much her total life is influenced, I am convinced that she is the worst of this group and most are better than this case.
Q. The prosecution submitted as Exhibit 225 an affidavit of Jadwifa Kaminska, Document NO-876, page 46 of the English Document Book 10.
A. She was operated on 15 August 1942. It describes the course of the treatment as she was not given anything to eat, morphium, plaster cast, dressing changed by me, the necessary secondary operations. It says expressly that her leg is healed with the exception of scars. I believe, therefore, that one can say that Kaminska belonged perhaps to the better one and the one presented here was worse. I should think that the second group is more or less between these two.
Q. The next document I will have you shown is NO-877, Exhibit 228 of the prosecution, page 61 of the English Document Book 10. This is an affidavit of Yanina Iwanska. To which group did this person belong?
A. The same group. She was operated on at the same time. The case is the sane. Dressing changed by Fischer under my control. She speaks of drainage; she says metal pieces were put in and out. Maybe there was an abscess. She says in her report that she is healed and that later she had drainage from the leg. These three cases more or less describe the second group totally healed. Traces of infection and definite scars as shown were without any important loss.
Q. Another witness who was examined before this Tribunal was Maria Kusnerchak. I shall have you shown pictures of this witness of Prosecution Exhibit 219, Document 1080. To which group did this witness belong?
A. According to this she clearly belonged to Group 3a. That is, in October here there was no gangrene. Her muscle was tied off. The whole clinical course of the experiment is described very well and she says I examined her in November. She had several operations. The scars are seen here clearly. Once the upper, and once the lower joints were endangered and saved by sacrificing the muscle. She is certainly one damaged most severely. She has no loss of nerves but loss of function secondary. Joints are free. The leg was saved. There is no sign that infection endangered the person as a whole because blood circulation is all right. It is something that can be improved by further operation and treatment afterwards. It can be reduced by at least ten percent. She has no bone focus. Kusnerchak seems affected more then Dsido although Dsido is more seriously ill. I should like to say that Kusnerchak has about 33 1/3% loss, which is equal to the loss of a knee joint and that is a high estimate considering all she suffered and the cosmetic appearance.
Q. Another witness, Maria Broel-Plater.
A. Maria Broel-Plater --
Q. Just a minute, witness. The prosecution submitted the pictures of this witness as Exhibit 209, Document 1079. To which group did this witness belong?
A. Broel-Plater and Dsido both belong to the gangrene group. That is the group showing most serious infection and you will see that the one who was operated on last in that is Broel-Plater, who had the much more harmless condition than Kusnerchak who was from a much more harmless experiment.
She describes the case. Says that everything was done that was necessary. In case of Broel-Plater there were no complaints of loss of nerve, no big muscle connection, only the two scars, no interference of the bone and a very slight infection of the periosteum. That is a very good result although from the most serious group. That could almost be from the beginning group. Then there is someone who suffered more, that is Dsido.
Q. The last witness examined before this Tribunal is the witness, Jadwiga Dsido. The picture which Prosecution has submitted is number NO-1082, exhibit 214. To what group did this witness belong?
A. She was in the gangrene group at the end. One can see from her the infection from the calf muscles going up and endangering the knee joint. From the cross incision at the outside of the knee joint this harm is prevented. And then it goes down and in toward the bone and again by an incision, so that not only this focus of infection is healed but the joint is saved. Dsido is a classical example of therapy which combats infection with the knife and prevents effecting the joint. In the case of Dsido it is very important that subsequent treatment was already introduced when subsequent operation reduced the loss of function. This, of course, does not reduce our responsibility, but is a fortunate change of improvement.
THE PRESIDENT: When counsel for a defendant refers to art exhibit which has been offered in evidence by Prosecution and received in evidence, defendant's counsel will call attention to three things - the number of the document, the document number as an exhibit, and the page in the English document book upon which that exhibit may be found so that the Tribunal may readily refer to that document if it desires to do so.
The Secretary General will return these Document Books to the office but will bring them back for the Tribunal tomorrow morning and put them on the desk.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930, 6 March 1947.)
OFFICE OF US CHIEF OF COUNSEL
DOC. DIV. LIBRARY THIS ITEM IS DUE ONE WEEK FROM:
IF NEEDED LONGER PLEASE INFORM THE LIBRARY.
Official transcript of the American MilitaryTribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 6 March 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I.
Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America, and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain that the defendants are present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all the defendants are present in court with the exception of the defendant Oberheuser who is absent due to illness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court with the exception of the defendant Oberheuser who has been excused on account of illness.
Counsel may proceed.
The witness is reminded that he is still under oath.
KARL GEBHARDT - resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION - continued BY DR. SEIDL (Counsel for defendants Gebhardt and Fischer):May it please the Tribunal, before the defendant states his opinion with regard to the results of the experiments I request permission to offer an affidavit which is located in my document book, on page 33.
It is an affidavit of the defendant Dr. Fritz Fischer, and I offer this affidavit in order to shorten the examination and because the important results of the experiments are stated in this affidavit. I offer this affidavit as Gebhardt Exhibit 8. I request the Tribunal to take judicial notice of the contents of this affidavit and in view of the number of pages in the affidavit and the length of the affidavit I refrain from reading the entire affidavit into the record. I only want to read the last two pages into the record because they seem important to me.
I begin on page 41 with the first paragraph. I quote:
"Therefore, the aim of therapeutic treatment must be to effect a contact also in cases whore, in the past, this has not been possible by the usual application for morphological reasons. We may be encouraged in this hope to effect a clinical cure also in cases of abscess forming (and similar forms of strepto and staphylococci infections as angina folliculitis, furunculosis, pleura and joint empyema, phlegmons and purulent osteomyelitis. This is mad possible by sending ions through the tissue by means of electrical currents. The direct current between the poles to which sulfonamide is fed, (as electrolyte together with tissue juice) overcomes all barriers of the tissue, such as vascularless callosity, necrosis and lime saturated with fluid.
"This method has already been used in medicine before in other direction and for other purposes and is known by the name of iontophoresis.
"For this a low voltage direct current is required, which carries the pigment prontosil for instance from the cathode to the anode through the tissue.
"It was therefore proposed to treat with sulfonamide the abscess-forming and similar cases of bacteria inflamed diseases caused by bacteria (especially streptococci, staphylococci and gangrene) as angina, furuncle, anscesses, phlegmons and osteomyelitis, by bringing the chemotherapeutics in sufficient concentration by means of the iontophoresis through the tissue directly to the culture of the microbes.
"It was further recommended to make a careful analysis of the bacterial and morphological condition before beginning a chemotherapeutic action in order then to choose the correct drug according to the type of organism (gram positive or gram negative) and to make the manner of application dependent upon the prevailing histological structure. Thus, in the case of catarrhal purulent inflammation (meningococci, meningitis, gonorrhea) an oral or intravenous dose would be suitable as well as in cases of initial catarrhal inflammation inclined to form abscesses (otitis media, and onotritis) that is, as prophylaxis.
"If, however, the organism is spread over the surface of the tissue like an oil film as in cases of a newly perforated injury to a joint or to the abdominal cavity, a local rinsing with sterile ampulla contents would be indicated.
"For superficial pyodermic processes powder or ointment should be applied (acid-preparation-Albucid). In cases of abscesses or necroses, however, a result can be reached only if there is contact between the organism and the chemotherapeutic in the necrosis. Here the method of iontophoresis would be the choice.
"The fundamental conditions would be similar with the antibiotica (penicillin, streptomycin) so that one may expect also by these means an increase of the therapeutic result quotient if they are applied by means of iontopherese to the seat of disturbance between the body end the microorganisms.
The work of Broderson, Lettre, who pass the alkaloid of the meadow saffr colchicum, to the centre of cancer of the skin by this means, proves that large organic molecules can be conveyed in this manner.
"According to these deliberations it should be considered to prescribe also anti-biotica penicillin and streptomicin through iontophoresis in cases of disease developing anscesses.
Nurnberg, 27 January 1947.
(Signed) Dr. Fritz Fischer."
Witness, you have described the experiments yesterday which were carried out under your direction in order to test the effectiveness of the sulfonamides. Was the result of the experiment such that the question which was made in the order to you was answered in the affirmatice?
A. Yes. About the value of the results according to its practical side may I briefly summarize and point out that I shall try, in my entire description, according to the state of affairs and according to the motives and the situation to follow the prosecution exactly which has required seventeen days for the sulfonamide experiments. Today I have only reached my third day May I point out that the question of the value of the experiments can be answered with three answers which were given by three lay men.
The General fundamentally stated, in the beginning, that all the experiments were without any value, that is, that animal-like: common human beings have done something which is completely without any purpose. Mr. Hardy spoke of the "negative results" of the sulfonamide experiments, in connection with the presentation of the written affidavit. However, Mr. McHaney tried to force Rostock to give a judgment about my person and about the experiments which he did not know in detail and the question of the completely useless torture of Polish women, and I am sure that you do not want to agree with that. Therefore, al three occasions -- and I want to emphasize that very clearly at this time -three laymen have made a medical judgment and they consulted with somebody and they have given their judgment according to their personal opinion.
I believe in any case that for me this is one of the most important parts of the trial because it is exactly the parallel of what I have seen ???er Himmler, that is, that the layman tends to concentrate the whole problem into one question. That may be quite possible in legal matters--I cannot say about that--to ask with regard to a certain situation and then with the answer that is in this case a negative result, he then assumes that he knows the whole subject and gives a scientific judgment-and that he tries to give these judgments in the medical matter. May therefore request that I be permitted to show that it can very easily be said that the results of the sulfanamide experiments were negative in a certain question; that is, if you take the basic initial question-to test the 5 medicines--and therefore the use of the word "negative" result originated with me. International science which will make a subsequent examination will hardly adhere to the medicial decision of Mr. MCHaney but they will adhere to the affidavit by Fischer. It shows to some extent the scientific value of this question. It will show that the new will exist true and honorable. I do not want to involve the whole scientific side into this case. However, may I state the practical conclusions connected with our experiments and which are of far-reaching importance? May I take that in contrast to the judgment by the layman in order to emphasize very clearly in the record the manner in which we proceeded?
It was of decisive importance to the front to know if a preventative medicine was found in the sulfonamides. That is, that we were to supply the troops with them, just like the bags which were carried by allied troops. As far as my field is concerned, we did not follow this train of thought. Himmler discontinued our contacts with the Zybazol Factory although for the time being wanted to establish the same procedure as he had been seen by the Allies.
Q. Another question, witness. Zybazol is a medicine which was manufactured in Switzerland?
A. Yes. Therefore the big question that Himmler did not utilize the special contacts in Switzerland for this medicine and that he did not adopt the sulfanamide bag of Allied troops, and this was decided as a result of our experiments. It was a far-reaching question with regard to the care of the wounded to do with money and funds. If the sulfonamides had meant something of particular importance, then the organization fo the Waffen-SS could have been extended to a very large point with young physicians or with any troop medical officers which we night have obtained because we could have just provided the physicians with sulfonamide. Through our results now came the other branches of the Wehrmacht, that we needed fully trained surgeons because we were trying to push operation centers up to the front and that we did not want to use it as a medicine; for the technique in the SS this also had a very far-reaching result. I have taken it upon myself to point out that in particular in the SS an instrument had been invented by a medical officer, whereby sulfonamides could be blown into the wounds through a tube, and that this was to be made possible. In our case this had already been introduced in 2 or 3 divisions. However, we completely abandoned this procedure, purely as a result of the outcome of the experiments. One of the decisive questions was the results in practice with regard to prophylaxis, that is what should be done with regard to the sulfonamides prior to disease. May I name a venereal disease her as one of the most convincing examples? At that period of ??? we maintained a point of view that with these epidemice of gonorrhea which existed at that time, that the previous taking of sulfonamide would have a high grade of protection. Now we proved in our results that it was not so important what individual disease was involved but rather the fact was important what the course of the disease was. May I point out to the Tribunal that a disease can progress like a catarrh. Take as an example the harmless nose catarrh. The whole inflamed tissue fluid, goes somewhere around the inflamed spot and then, of course, the germ is in this tissue fluid; if at the same time I can manage to bring sulfonamide to that place through the blood, which will mix with this tissue fluid, then I will have the result that directly the medicine and the germs will have a contact, and this will have a bigger effect on the cure.
However, we have shown that venereal disease and also wounds incurred in combat never actually take that course. There are quite different forms of applying septic means and in every case where the disease does not appear in such a way but where it appears as a profound abscess, surrounded by thick membrane, then of course it is impossible to believe that sulfonamides can be applied from the outside, through the blood, because it cannot penetrate this membrane after the circulation has been stopped from the outside.
One cannot tell me that this had been generally known about that period of time and nobody should tell me that this is already stated in a sentence by Rostock and one should not tell me that was already contained in American literature at that time, because I have prepared myself extraordinarily well for this question. However, may I make a short statement now, and show the last of our practical results--that Fischer, in continuing to think of this problem, found a very simple but singular solution and he said "If the germs of this disease cannot be brought together with the sulfonamides because the germs are not contained in the fluid and therefore the sulfonamide cannot get there through the blood because of this membrane, then through a different procedure, by way of electricity, I can overcome this mechanical obstruction and in spite of the membrane which surrounds an abscess and in spite of the membrane which can also surround the germ, like, for example, in the case of tuberculosis, I can now, through this new secret procedure, bring both into contact." I am convinced that if nothing else remains of us, this discovery of Fischer will become a decisive contribution to modern therapy. It is natural that laymen cannot know that. However, they cannot say either that all this does not have any value. Around this time it meant very much to us and of all the experiments, which were almost limited to the absolute minimum, through clinical and analogical conclusions, that is to say, that we saw that in some cases of the second group where, at the same time, we had simultaneously applied the Marfanil sulfonamide into the wound, thus we immediately established the inner contact, that is when we had this catarrh before us, we saw success.
On the other hand, we saw that in case of gangrene we did not have any success because in the whole vicinity of the area infected with gas gangrene the tissues did inflame and became stopped up and as a result of this they were unable to absorb the medicine.
On the basis of this consideration several of the successes and failures were command by us which had been previously made by the physicians, and not for the first time we found a clear manner of procedure that there is no contrast but it is actually so that everywhere the catharal is running, in excess the success is possible, and wherever it is in a form where it is secreted by membrane and stopped off it is not possible, and this was expressed in May 1943 and then in the fall I was in Italy and in Spain, and afterwards I had been able to obtain information about how far this work had progressed abroad, an I know the literature abroad at this time. The first indication that this matter is connected with the construction of tissue originated with Gebhardt and Fischer, the results therefore were not without any value and they did not in any way solve the problem. They are partial contributions to the entire field of research. However, I believe that through profound effort we were able to obtain the information which could be obtained on behalf of the sick and the wounded of all countries.
Q. And what conclusions could be drawn for the German Wehrmacht as a result of these experiments?
A. I have stated my view for the most part for these experiments, for us it so that we did not discuss these sulphanilamide bags, and that with the extreme surgical supply we remained with the old procedure, and that we only obtained surgeons from the other branches of the Wehrmacht in order to render the further expansion of the SS as an organization possible, and to take the responsibility for it.
Q. As a result of these experiments was a scientific problem of these sulphanilamide therapy treated in detail?
A. I believe that I have already answered this question. At that time I expressly stated that I considered this an important partial contribution, that I only wanted to point out that at the conclusion of the experiments, especially as a result of the fatalities, we finished where the practical question with which had been assigned to us had been solved, where however the problem only became attractive in the form of research and important. If at that time, after we had devoted our interest for the sulphanilamides in excess of the assignment, we had especially emphasized it as our own field research, and if we had brought up the question of Jordophorese, connected with the basic research of the problem on the field, at that time on our own initiative, then at least 500 experimental subjects would have had to be furnished.
In contrast to that we stopped where our assignment had been fulfilled, and only subsequently continued the thought and put it at the discussion before international science, just as it has now been summarized once again by Fischer; and as a matter of justice I must emphasize that I only have the clinical power to judge it but that it was the idea of Dr. Fisc
Q. Witness, in the indictment you are charged with special responsibility for experiments, whose subject was the "Regeneration of Bones, of bone muscles and nerves," and further you are charged with special responsibility for experiments with regard to bone transplantations; on how many persons, as far as you can remember, in the camp of Ravensbruck were experiments carri out and how many of these were asceptic operations?
A. I request that especially in this point, where my testimony will be rather uncertain for reasons which I shall yet describe, I be expressly permitted to state this uncertainty and to describe what I know, because after all it was so that the prosecution has stated:"And then it was ordered by this man, that additional operations were carried out", that is on my initiative, and we had a certain schedule which has been presented here by Dr. Mazka. The figures stated by Dr. Mazka are false. I can only approximated correct them. However, I would like this to be contained correctly in the rec because these things which were used against me and where it was stated in such a way as this had anything to do with the Third Conference. I would therefore like that I be heard in detail, because the doctor who performed these things, Dr. Stumpfecker, is working at this time in the Russian zone, and has taken the material with him into the Russian Zone, and because through the Vienna broadcasting station, the physicians, who from my school of though are acquainted with this field, are being called on by the Russian broadcasting station to report. I want to emphasize expressly, of course, this is in no way based on experiments on human beings, but on the problem which I should like to be heard on because it is of here. The figure is that we named 60 women with certainty or facts approaching certainty, for these sulphanilamide experiments, and 15 men, and that on the other hand by special approval, special order and special task in a direct order from Himmler to Dr. Stumpfegger, as I remember, about six splinters were taken out and the shoulder blade, and that I believe still today, just as Stumpfegger gave me that information that he under the same conditions used six or seven other persons from the group of Polish women who had been condemned to death.