ch-A-JP-16-1-Karrow (Int. Garand) Now, when ho was finally able t say a few words at the end and finally, he lifted me out of the saddle and then he emphasized in his planning that everything that he had done, the whole experiment had been ordered by Himmler and that this had only been planned by a few people with him.
I believe this was the cause cf a telephone call of Grawitz, intervened, in some manner, and that the whole being suddenly was sanctioned and what I had been promising him - that he couldn't habilitate in this manner, and everything for which I had reproached him was suddenly being covered by my superiors. And as I did not trust him, did not know him, I called Grawitz during lunch time and now the situation had, of course, changed very much. I know for certain that Grawitz told me that the whole thing was somehow the desire of Himmler but he said, when I asked him: "How far are you involved?"," I cannot say that." In any case, the situation was as it would be for any officer. If I see that my chief approves something which I consider impossible then I was unable to argue with my subordinate. But I let him go and it seems rather improbable to me that I was as kind to him as stated here if I had a discussion with Grawitz and Himmler about this Rascher. Therefore, it can be explained what advance work Rascher did with Himmler in regard to his visit with me an already, since he was involving Himmler, every object was impossible. When he speaks of my ambition - as if one man in the world would have liked to have Rascher as a subordinate, and he limits the question that he should remain with the Ahenenerbe and that he did not want to come under my authority. That it hits Himmler at this point - I may point out the exact spot here in paragraph 3 in which he states that such methods which break with previous clinical experiences cannot be tried cut, and when he speaks about the schooling in my case. That is, he tells Himmler everything which he had to tell him in order to have him agree to this. "Here i a man from a University; he only believes in the school medicine and that we were not modern enough" and he again approaches Himmler with his ideas by means of this letter. The result is that he is transferred to the Waffen-? but that he also remains with the Ahnenerbe. That is, without any control on my part, he remains there as a surgeon.
Grawitz was very cautious towards him from tho very beginning in the direct reports to Himmler.
Q And subsequently what was your contact with Dr. Rascher? Did you never write a letter to he Defendant Brandt where you discussed tho work of Dr. Rascher and where you stated this work was done very superficially and it first would have to bo evaluated?
A In this argument I demanded that he should send me tho basis of tho previous medical work ho had done. Tho whole report seemed so strange to me that I wanted to see where he came from. However, at the end ho already stated that if ho could not habilitate as a surgeon on my staff, then with his other secret experiments - I can state here under oath that I did not have any documents about that and I would not have any documents about that and I would not have taken it upon myself to evaluate them afterwards - and as ho writes himself that ho could have a position with Dr. Pfannenstiel by the sanitorian and then he was cautious enough not to submit the documents to me which I had demanded and somewhere in the document ho hints that tho documents were underway and he gives a very short description of his surgical work. Then he admits that this was only a short intermediary report and while there were previously submitted to Himmler, as instructions for the troops - that; is, as a decisive report - and that ho would work out tho details as soon as ho obtained tho necessary equipment. At tho time, it was clear to me, and I believe that I contributed to a great extent that Rascher was unable to carry out the next experiments until wintertime and if I had had my way he would have gone to tho front. Ho did not habilitate either and after his visit to no his chances were absolutely nil.
Q Tho next document which I shall hand to tho defendant is located in Document Book 11 of tho Prosecution. It is located on page 19 of the English text - page 19. It is Document N). 612. It is Prosecution Exhibit 241. It is a letter from tho Defendant Rudolf Brandt to the Defendant Sievers. It is dated the 29th of September, 1943, and ho refers to tho blood clotting drug, polygal #10, and amongst other things he stated, and I quote:
"The matter Polygal #10 did not develop as quickly as you and SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher expected. The Reichs Fuehrer SS has Gruppenfuehrer Professor Dr. Gebhardt. He allowed to become convinced that, for various reasons, it is still necessary to make thorought tests at Hohenlychen which are previously to be discussed by SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher with a competent physician at Hohenlychen or SS Gruppenfuehrer Dr. Gebhardt personally. I shall also write a few lines to that effect to ss Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher and I shall ask him also now to remain objective and cool because things cannot be done as quickly as he originally thought."
What impression did you have of the blood coagulating drug polygal and what way was it tested at Hohenlychen?
A The drug Polygal - I believe that was the occasion when in November, 1943 I really discussed the whole question of experiments with Himmler and I request permission that I can state here clearly and also that I can describe what possibilities I had in all of the experiments and also with regard to polygal. It was never so that at the beginning, in the execution that I had any part in tho way this question was asked. I was not the distributor either because otherwise I would not always come too late and not go in such wrong ways. However, I have already shown some occasions where with the frontal surgeons these things, were done. The same thing was tho case with polygal. In 1943, polygal was most certainly sent to our field hospitals and to some of the hospitals at home. In any case, I found this blood coagulating drug somewhere and I know for certain that I heard a reason which caused mo to object to this drug from tho very beginning. Then when I discovered that Dr. Rascher was. involved, then in November I took action. Dr. Rostock has correctly stated that for surgery at home, which is called aseptic art surgery, it was an involved problem to find hotter drugs in order to facilitate the operations. I also want to state that this drug was better that the others, as I saw in subsequent tests, and that were sent to us in 1944 were a major improvement over this art surgery at home.
However, at the front it was recommended to us differently and, through an accident, I hoard that Himmler thought and that this was described as a patent medicine for the front. Himmler always had a very primitive thought. He wanted to have all drugs to enable his troops, oven if not totally injured, so that they would come through the combat without severe results occurring. He was trying to give them a patent medicine so that they would not catch any contagious diseases. Now, all of a sudden, the idea had come to him that a man at tho front could not bleed to death any more if previously ho took tho polygal tablets. That is an idea which, of course, is stupid because the bleeding problem does not even exist at tho front. That was in tho Middle Ages and since that time we have mastered the bleeding and the man dies from shock and infections the big bleeding is a mechanical problem. If a big pipe suffers a whole and a lot of blood spurts then it does not make any difference if he bleeds a little or a lot because he will bo dead in a few minutes. But I had the idea that Himmler had to be convinced differently. I used this occasion of patent medicine at tho front in order to discuss with Himmler this whole question of experiments. And with this surgical example could not talk about homeopathy or biochemistry or any other witchcraft. And I forced him to finally, in my surgical field, to stop all experimentation and, above all, to prohibit Rascher from carrying out any experiments. The most important part in this document is the conclusion.
The good Brandt, who always had to pass on the general feeling without putting his own personal attitude into it, had to be the intermediary so that Rascher would not come to me without warning: He was to be careful and he was to stay on the subject, he was discreetly given a reference to a specialist with whom he was to discuss the subject, so that I would not do him any harm, and the opportunity is given to him to perhaps discuss the whole problem of carrying out any further experiments. At that time the whole experimenting by Rascher came to an end. I have the impression, and I do not want to argue here, where my influence started and I cannot say either what my influence was, but I intervened in the problem of the experiments, and by sacrificing my person and my name I still managed to achieve a definite order as far as this can be said of such a terrible field. However, I did not sit there like a fat bee, as the Reichsfuhrer-SS said in one translation, and I did not suggest how thousands of people could be killed through useless experiments. At the time I told Himmler what I believed in for the future, and therefore I am proud that I even forced a man like Himmler to introduce a certain order by proving to Himmler, by means of this example, that naturally it had to be recognized by us, and I have already paid for it, that the order and the decision in the totalitarian State is given by the highest authority; However, that it is completely out of question that individual men, without knowledge of a specialized subject, can approach Himmler, and that he decides about the experimentation. In this discussion, and I beg that this be believed, he also had very good arguments on his side. Of course it was not so that Himmler only caused damage with regard to the experiments. Himmler had a very simple method of working -- without consideration to the fact whether it was decent or cruel. In all the fields, where former experience had been accumulated according to the literature and according to the human beings, he assumed that something could be discovered here and immediately told one or two people that this task had to be carried out. For the most part, whenever he used two or three people for that purpose, he did not inform them of the ether's work, so that he would have a result which was not influenced in any way.
Of course, he did not only occupy himself with medicine. For example, may I point out that he had dealt with the whole question from porcelain to gold and this was tested in Germany, amidst great ridicule, and in the end a porcelain box was finally manufactured which was free of any faults. He interfered, moreover, in diets, and the SS was the only unit which obtained food like the English and the Americans, for example that in the morning they would receive porridge, that they would receive oatmeal, and that they would receive their own mineral water. Experiments were, in part, terrible; all of a sudden whole frontal divisions had to drink water only. There was much resistance. On the other hand he established quite a few good things. Concentrated foods and vitamin foods, without any doubt, first originated with the SS. The camouflage jackets, that is the camouflage suits which were given to the troops, also originated with Himmler. The modern winter fur clothing originated as a result of an experiment by Himmler. Well before the beginning of the war in Italy he saw the first amphibious car, and he always developed that with all means, because he felt the future war would certainly be decided by amphibious cars and cars which were able to climb hills, and so on; we had the impression that if he had refrained from carrying cut all the experiments on human beings and if he had built amphicious cars, then we certainly would have landed in England. He ruthlessly burdened his people. He already used live ammunition to shoot over the heads of his troops in maneuvers before the war; that is, if troops were attacking and machine guns were more highly effective than with other arms, no real ammunition is used within the 80 meter zone because there will be some casualties. At every maneuver and at all times in times of peace, the SS had casualties through this measure, which always thinks of the unit and never of the individual. All this is characteristic of this man and that, of course, cannot be terminated all of a sudden through a single objection. The eternal subject of dispute 'the Reichs Sport Insignia' which he demanded of every man-- that every man had to pass a test for the Reich Sport Insignia if he wanted to receive a promotion.
I will immediately close my example, and I only wanted to show that Himmler collected ideas in an unlimited field, had these ideas tested, and always somehow carried them out the last consequence. Part of them concerned medicine, and he used exactly the same method in this field. He collected old family recipes of which he heard, and suddenly tuberculosis was tested without any medical men from the school ever hearing about it. He depended on bio-chemist research, and he also had this carried out on his own patients and in the concentration camps, without consideration to any objection by any specialist. He used the valuable Polygal and had it used at the front in quite a different manner and he did the same thing in many other fields. It was not possible that we medical men, who had been educated at school, were able to prevent him by objections, because we did not find out these things for the most part; when we discovered them he always had the concept and stated "I know that you school medical men are opposed to it, but this recipe has become lost and now I am going to develop it particularly against all objections of the school medical men." Now it would be false, no matter what one thinks of his personality, to say that everything he did was nonsense. On the other hand, of course, with regard to human beings, every mistake results in a catastrophe, which has now brought us into the present terrible situation. Therefore, in connection with this document, which shows that fundamental discussions were to take place now and that this was to be brief, and I explained this to Himmler as clearly as I could. I do not believe that I made a very great impression on him. The matter of Polygal was very unpleasant to him, but otherwise ho maintained the point of view which he always had, that I knew something about my own little field of work, and at Hohenlychen he always called us the unreliable, liberal company which could not be trusted with anything-- we always brought word back that we only could work in our own little field, and these were things which could not be explained to him.
However, at the time, in spring 1944, I did have a certain amount of influence, and I believe that I impressed him by pointing cut to him how well known my experiments were abroad.
Already before I appeared at the rental conference, which has already been mentioned, I had discussion about this in Switzerland; and then in the fall cf 1943, in Italy, my clientele was such that it was on the side of those who went over to the English, as well as to the other. Here I could tell Himmler very clearly how the people, who knew me, thought about the fact that we were involved in such matters. I believe that this was the protection of these women. As far as I could I pointed out how necessary it was to create a certain order here and to slow the development.
I would like to claim for myself that new experiments did not take place after this discussion, that is towards the year 1944, that they were not carried out any more in the sense of a large-scale experiment. Apparently these old bacteriological experiments continued - I do not know that. However, I do not believe either that experiments were still carried out o? ??reigners. That is also aside from the rest of the bacteriological side. I can state under oath that no surgical experiments took place any more after that time. It certainly was not in connection with my person or in any connection with the Waffen-SS, and I believe that I was able to make it clear to Himmler what basic principles he should adhere to, if he was to continue with any experiments on human beings. This approximately is the basis which later on led to the decree of May 1944.
DR. SEIDL: May it please the Tribunal, the next document which I am going to hand to the witness....
JUDGE SEBRING: Doctor, you have made some statements about being able to bring these human experiments to an end by your influence with Himmler, and I believe that you also said that prior to the time of your sulfonamide experiments on human beings, the experiments on human beings had been conducted without documentation or without official records being made of the matter. Is that correct? Did I understand that correctly, or not?
May I exactly express once more what I tried to say. I know how these scientific experiments were brought about, that is to say if any medical authorities or if any important specialists, for example, Fielding, and how he turned to Himmler I do not know. I would not have boon able to oppose them. However, I could not have felt myself justified to do that either. If the Chief of a medical agency suggests it, then he does that of his own responsibility, as the chief agency of this branch of the Wehrmacht. What I was fighting against, was that there was still quite another way. If, for example, these official experiments of the Luftwaffe were completed, then Rascher or somebody else involved himself in those experiments, and we have all heard in the course of of time how many things were being done and they were able to refer directly to Himmler. I even had the impression that things were done which never even reached Himmler; and I believe that this way of making decisions certainly stopped at that time as far as I am able to overlook it. I cannot give any information whatsoever about what agreements were reached with regard to other experiments.
Q. How could it bo possible for experiments to bo conducted on a large scale, such as for example high altitude experiments, freezing experiments, sea water experiments, and these other experiments that have been talked about in these documents, how could it bo possible for these experiments to be conducted, unless they had either the approval of Himmler, or had the approval of the head of the particular branch of the Wehrmacht, for whose benefit the experiments were being conducted? I seem to be confused about that. Perhaps you can straighten me out on it.
A. That certainly was not possible. That is what I call the large scale experiments. I am convinced that in the high alt itude experiments, and in the water freezing experiments, which were carried out officially by the Luftwaffe, that somehow some contact had been officially established with Himmler, and that Himmler approved them.
On the other hand, without any doubt, in connection with the experiments of the Luftwaffe, Rascher now continued to carry out these experiments. Certainly not, however, under the control of the Luftwaffe, and certainly not under the control of a physician of the SS, and he himself, or through his wife, immediately wrote to Brandt or to Himmler. That is what I would call the illegal side channel.
Q. How is it possible in the German Army or any other army, for an inferior officer, an officer of small, rank, a lieutenant or a captain, to go over the head of his major and his Colonel and his General, and the Commander of his Army, or his Corps, and go directly to a man at the top of the Government and carry these things on; that is something I can't understand?
A. That is the exception which was possible in the case of Rascher. Rascher was a member of the Allgemine SS. His wife was a very good friend of Himmler, and from the correspondence it can be soon that everything I say now I only know from the documents here, so that I can only draw conclusions. However, it is my impression that there is no doubt that the Luftwaffe experiment was terminated, and that this was reported correctly, and that responsibility went from the higher agencies to tho lower one, and that the top societies were in contact with Himmler. On the other hand it can be seen from the correspondence, that Rascher was writing to Himmler about his private contacts, that he complained about the Luftwaffe, that he requested his transfer, and that he does not come under my control, but that he comes under the scientific society, the Ahnenerbe, which was directly subordinated to Himmler.
Therefore, I would like to answer correct ....
Q. You have touched upon something the Tribunal would like to know about after you have finished your present answer. We have heard a good deal about the the Ahnenerbe Society, when you have finished your present answer will you be good enough to tell us about the Ahnenerbe, about its constitution, about how it is run, and about its purpose?
A. Yes. I want to summarize my previous answer, that, of course we had clear channels, and every subordinate had to s submit his reports to the next higher authority, and only the higher authority can give the orders and reach the decisions, and the person who gives the orders, of course, bears the whole responsibility, and that was the way as far as possible I tried to carry this out, in my field of competence in the SS. On the other hand, Himmler was the strange man who collected all sorts of personalities, those who were valuable and those who were not, and he immediately occupied himself with every thought with which he was confronted, although I had very much with Himmler in the medical and Human field, I did not know Rascher. Himmler know exactly that I would have objected to such a person, and there were arguments and in all tho places where we had any contact. However, it was Himmler's conception, that he wanted one with school medicine, and the odd Rascher, and a biochemist, and he collected all that was necessary. As a result of this all the official channels . . .avoided , and therefore in the case of the Luftwaffe, as far as I can see it, these experiments which had actually been concluded, were continued, and this of course endangered the whole result which had been achieved; and as I said I had prevailed them as I will show later on, it was that I wanted to prevent that an individual physician should have any immediate contact with Himmler.
Q. Now, then you have cited the situation, where little Dr. Rascher was able to go directly to Himnler, instead of making his reques't through channels; lets forget about Dr. Rascher. What about the man at Strasbourg, who had the skeleton collection, what about Dr. Ding Schuler, and what about these other people who were carrying on human experiments prior to tho time you required these be made a matter of official records; what about these things, did they go directly to Himmler or did they have to come through channels?
A. May I again emphasize in this respect that I did not knew Dr. Ding, or Hirt, and I have only obtained my knowledge from the trial. As far as I understood Dr. Ding in turn talked to Grawitz and from there the results were submitted to Himmler. Therefore, he kept some official channels, because I really did not knew who originated the whole question of the epidemics, but apparently they were Conti and Grawitz. On the other hand I do know how Dr. Hirt came to the Ahnenerbe; and I cannot describe the Ahnenerbe very well, but I want to point out the following factor: It was the whole striving of Himmler, and that is why I gave a description of the foundation of the order, to establish in the SS their own science; and that is the whole question of the argument revolving around this point. The people who came from University schools or are learned old medical officers, of course, opposed any new establishments in the Third Reich. Perhaps they could have discussed if the tone and the conditions of the in trument which already existed was to be changed. Now, there is a certain group in the Third Reich, people like Himmler, Hess, who were of the profound conception, that on the "tired bourgeois ground" nothing now and active could arise anymore.
And on the basis of the young talent, now ways should be selected; and Himmler was especially characteristic in that respect. For one thing, he takes the few medical officers at our disposal, he does not train them in the old Military Medical Academy at Berlin, which has a tradition of several hundred years, to that we founded a miserable subsidiary and moved to Graz, and of course the results arc accordingly very bad.
And as I heard here, Himmler becomes the president of this Ahnenerbe Society. Around him there were two circles, and I was never a member of either one of them. From the time of my schooling and as a result of our family contacts, I was acquainted with him, but he also established a so-called circle of friends around Him, and I was never a member of it. That was the dangerous mixture of original personalities and industry. From this circle Himmler received the funds suggestions for all the thousands of experiments, which were carried out in the various fields. I have the impression, Sievers will possibly be able to give you more information about that I, who was not a member and did not belong to this scientific instrument, that this strange new foundation in which all the various personalities were to keep contact was the Ahnenerbe.
If I can say it with one word, what I have often hinted, Himmler was a follower of an antique idea, which had gone wild and which was misunderstood; while the whole modern development creates specialists, individual faculties and individual subjects, he had the idea of the Universal Field Universities, he made the mistake of placing himself into the center of the Universe. This was the circle of friends of the military medical Institute, and the Ahenenerbe, and societies whose names I do not recall. They were not only unsuitable people, but the actual person responsible was not Sievers, but it was the Director of the University of Munich. I have forgotten the name.
Q Wuest?
A Oh, yes, it was Wuest, Professor Wuest. In these circles, there were people, there were physicians, doctors, natural scientists and all other various branches were represented. From these people he obtained relatively much good, and also very much bad.
The bad things about it was that he always made the decisions, and the almost tragical factor and our disaster was that when a private idea originated here, then through the personal union of the person of Himmler in this strange group and through the executive person of Himmler, who for example had the concentration camps immediately subordinated to him and through Commander Himmler, of the Waffen-SS all these people could be brought into conflict, just as it happened to us; however, I did not understand all that at that time.
May I point out here that our unfortunate situation of course has a big advantage. Never in my life have I been mentally as free as now and, of course, I see now what a strange group we were and with what things we occupied ourselves which couldn't work. However, there was one thing characteristic for the Third Reich, the impulse of the layman, besides the University, beside the old army institutions, beside the traditional things in Germany, was to be placed there together, but no success was ever achieved in making this union.
I want to point cut how this problem was solved by Russia, who has solved it. New, of course, these things always run parallel. Thus, it was possible now that the man Rascher was a captain in the Luftwaffe, and that was without a doubt in a position under scientific control from the highest agencies of Hippke, Milca, Himmler worked at first under their immediate orders. However, then somehow Rascher succeeded in mobilizing his private contacts this strangely antique pseudo--circle, and to convince Himmler that, if new quite ruthlessly the thought was to be taken up, aside from all the obstructions of the universities and soldiers and so on, then this would cause sacrifices, but that better solutions could be attained and this was what Himmler always strived for. Of course Himmler is suddenly drawn away from the school of Medical men, he is assigned to us, because he must remain a soldier in the war, but, I was unable to get this surgeon Rascher under my control, as he was immediately assigned to the AHnenerbe, and continued "Drill" until finally we had the report about his fraudalent chilrlren, otherwise he would not have been finished. 4145 On the other hand, for example, Ding as I have understand it, I have never occupied myself with this, came to Himmler via Grawitz, that is the agency which confronted Himmler with the question if epidemics.
I never heard a word about this from Himmler, but in the question of epidemics I do not know whether he was personally interested.
I believe Grawitz approached him personally, but that is only a conclusion. What I want to say was that I had the example of Rascher, I believe I was able to obstruct his aims for the most part, and that I confronted Himmler with die question as a man, as a soldier, as a school surgeon, who had become involved in this whole conflict of questions. I was able to make an impression on him as least to die point that he listened to the opinion of the other side on that subject.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, I am not sure whether before the recess there occurred a mistake in the translation, but I will ask you again is it correct that before the execution of malaria experiments, the freezing experiments, and all of the other experiments, you did not know about them?
A. That is certainly correct. I don't think that I put it in this light. The point and the difficulty in my position itself, in my evidence I would like to point out; I think that I have to describe in these boarder fields the various conditions of orders were interlocked, but it was not so -- I Hid n't conceive the question to be such -- that I have been asked about individual experiments, but it was described to me now this may have been carried out.
Q. Mr. President, the next document which I present to the witness, is contained in document book No. 5 on page 20 of the English document book, it is document NO 170-79, which is presented as exhibit No. 135. It is a letter of the Reichsarzt Dr. Grawitz, to the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler, on the 28 June, 1944, it refers to the seawater experiments, at first we pointed out a request by the Luftwaffe and then we refer again back to an order on the 15 May 1944. Are you able to quote the contents of this order? I should like to point out, the Prosecution did not present this order yet, but it may have the possibility that this will be submitted to you shortly.
A. I cannot declare upon oath what is contained in this order. I am convinced that this order has nothing to do with myself, but that this order probably is a transmittal of experiments from Pohl to Grawitz. I don't know, but I do know exactly why I mentioned my attitude, and I know what I wanted. Whether this is quoted as an appendix in this order, I will see it, but I would like to declare, what to my attitude toward those human experiments was that time and what I submitted to Himmler. Under the pressure of this trial, it is so that everybody who is in hero at the trial will present this in this light, that the human experiments is absolutely out of the question for any doctor and on the other hand, of if everybody says if this is surely a voluntary experiment, then human experiments will be performed.
I may remind you that Dr. Liebrandt, who also mentioned this, that unfortunately in so-called natural science and the development of natural science, the human experiment itself is a heavy problem. It is quite sure least of all for us who are surgeons. At that time I got hold of literature. I attacked the person of Rascher, and I tried to explain my thoughts and impressions about this problem, which I confessed, and an very glad that Himmler heard them, and I explained them at that time. Many other persons had given him other thoughts on the subject; and I would like to be permitted to show the possibility of human experiments and how I would like to think about those experiments. I would like to compare these. There is no doubt whether the initial case is with the doctor, that a doctor suddenly will try to clarify a problem in human experiments, which he cannot do in any other way. That is the ideal experiment upon himself. We have the example of Dr. Speer who applied a local anasthetic upon himself, who proved it would not harm himself; and that is only possible in individual cases and by applying this experiment to myself. If the question is on the bacteriological side, I can only prove, if I did not got along with animal experiments, if I make available a larger group, these larger groups, -- can include voluntary people. In spite of our discussions on this point I am convinced that the volunteers for this experiment, will never surpass beyond five or six or ten people -- if it is an experiment of life and death. This is the mad initiator of this idea, plus two or three scholars who experienced those experiments which were carried out. These have been carried out in this regard. On the other hand if you approve a mark of three or four or eight hundred, this idea of volunteers receives a queer background. There are not eight hundred people who are absolutely ready, in clear knowledge that they may die in these experiments, if there is not absolutely a chance for them surviving which is made to these experiments.
On the other hand such experiments are being carried out in a. correct character. The basis for these experiments is merely not a doctor, but mostly a group, who support him mentally, a circle of research people, bacteriologists, or very often industry, if they want to press the matter. The little man, for instance in Germany here has to approach a problem with a knowing attitude to get volunteers for these experiments, that do not have the clear knowledge of the whole experiment but one thing, and recruiting for this experiment has to be done and recruiting means that the greatest success is achieved in this way: You can use radio; you can promise money, you can cleverly present it in the press, you can suppress the amount of chance of danger, you can apply it to a circle who is accessible to some sensation, who quite primitively falls for a present; these experiments have been carried out in the whole world, on natives, and on prisoners, and on all sorts of mental deficients, but not mad people, and finally they all agreed that they absolutely would use volunteers for these experiments. In these medical experiments the medical initiative in my opinion is in the background and is not quite decent any more, because mostly it is admitted that these 800 do not know how great the danger is, or that under some pressure or some false position they desired to submit to these experiments. The experiments are represented as voluntary and are carried out in this manner and is to be evaluated this way.
(Question by Dr. Seidl which was not translated.)
A. I told Himmler, I told him clearly he should not introduce such a question which may not be overlooked. This problem, as Rascher asked Himmler, about the idea then Rascher takes the initiative. Rascher does not participate in this experiment. And I may conclude that any experiment was forbidden in the bar. Himmler's participants in the experiment, says that has to be carried out in a different manner and on a larger scale. This experiment nobody can classify as a private initiative, as State initiative. So that in these experiments I find absolutely impossible, that the Government of Hitler fundamentally approved and recognized the experiment as legal, not if it was a question of private idea. But, then in the manner of questioning, it must be considered here a problem of the State. And, of making these experiments it has to be stated clearly how and where these experiments are to be carried out, and the responsibility from a high agency to a lower agency has to be stated.
Q. Now we come to the order of 15 May 1945.
A. Therefore, I suggested to Himmler, I don't know how far other people suggested to him in the years of the War, - during this catastrophic atmosphere that was prevailing, experiments could be carried out in this way - not according to what the individual doctor thinks necessary. On the other hand the State must not criticize this - how this was carried out. And, therefore, I suggested, as you will see, that a supreme medical authority, or anyhow the supreme agency should state whether this problem was of a military importance at this moment. Then the State should take the decision, whether the experiment should be carried out or not - a doctor would never be keen on these experiments; but if on account of this military situation - which has been approved by the military authorities, for instance, a medical agency or a technical agency, or whoever is the highest authority, think it necessary, then, consequently, it has to be decided quite definitely that impossible people, as Dr. Rascher, should not be responsible for the execution of this.