In addition to this, that effected every German physician, male and female. In the course of medical planning, we could not consider married couples. When both members of the marriage were physicians, we could not consider that fact. We had to limit them according to law, either the wife or the husband could practice. Both of them could not.
Q. Who gave the orders for this and the wearing of the David Star, or in 1934, the allocation of Jewish citizens to low work?
A. That was the Reich Ministry of the Interior.
Q. These orders were only given for doctors or for all members of all other professions?
A. For members of all professions.
Q. Witness, I now come to another point, namely, the question of your relations with Dr. Conti. Could you explain to us, shortly, about this and tell us which offices were hold by Dr. Conti and in which offices you were his deputy?
A. I was Dr. Conti's deputy, more or less in his capacity as Reich Physicians 'Chamber, the professional society of German physicians. Here, too, there were fields in which I did not represent him because according to law, the Reich Physicians' Leader could commission other people besides his deputy to do Certain tasks. In the Hauptamt fuer Volkagesundheit, I was only nominally his deputy because it was Conti's opinion that hero no deputy was necessary.
The NS Physicians' League had been established since 1934 after the foundation of the Main Party Health Office had become secondary in importance.
Moreover, in 1942, the NS Physicians! League was closed altogether. My activities in the Main Party Health Office concerned mainly this: I attempted to participate in same way, in particularly important matters, for instance in the struggle against large-scale national diseases such as cancer and tuberculosis and in the question that continually arose regarding the organization of social security; in Conti's plans to socialize German medicine and to create a so-called Reichsgesundheitswerk and then also in many other important questions.
For example, in 1941, Conti conceived the plan of sterilizing the Polish intelligentia.
Regarding my personal relations with Conti -
Q. Just a moment, Doctor. I would like to interrupt you. You have told us in what positions you worked as a deputy of Doctor Conti in the Main Party Health Office of the NSDAP. I am interested in relation to the Euthanasia program, in the following: Did you also act as Conti's deputy on the national sector of the health program?
A. No. I did not represent Conti in the national or the governmental sector, nor did I know in September of 1939, that Conti became State Secretary at that time. If I had some suspicion that such plans were afoot, then I should have attempted to do something about them because it is my standpoint, that the Reich Physicians' Leader cannot at the same time be a State Secretary in the Ministry of the Interior, and thus more or less be his own supervisor. After Wagner's death, when I was a potential successor to him, Reich minister of the Interior Frick called me to him and offered me a position as a State Secretary in the Ministry of that Interior. I refused that ah*ns down, with the justification as I have just given her. I was not Conti's deputy as leader of the Civilian Health Service, after Professor Brandt had become Commissioner General for Public Health. In other words, after a law, so to speak had created a difference between Brandt's functions in the Wehrmacht and the functions in the Civilian Sector.
Q. Witness, you heard yesterday what Dr. Kosmehl said in detail about the relation between Dr. Conti and you. Do you remember
Q. In the interest of saving time, I would like to ask you if this statement Dr. Kosmehl made yesterday is correct in your opinion? Do you agree with all he said?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you like to add something special, something perhaps which Dr. Kosmehl had not mentioned?
Or are you satisfied with all Dr. Kosmehl said?
A. No. I should like to speak about my relations with Conti only in our official experiences. I do not believe that the other considerations are relevant.
Q Dr., you, therefore, agree what Dr. Kosmehl stated as a witness yesterday?
A Yes.
Q I am interested especially in one thing, when Dr. Conti received orders from his superiors or if he passed such orders on to his subordinates or visa versa do you know about these matters, were you told about them so that one could assume that you knew about the activities of Dr. Conti, or was this not the case. Perhaps you could tell us about this question?
A No, that was not the case. A great number of very important matters, particularly those of political interest, were kept from my knowledge. This resulted from the basically different attitudes that Conti and I had regarding politics and the medical profession in general. It must be added that never when I differed in my opinion from Conti, did I refrain from expressing it openly. Often these expressions of my opinion on my part did not fit into Conti's political plans and the consequences of that naturally was a certain aleniation and a growing distrust on the part of Conti toward me arose. However, I was not afraid, if necessary, in order to avoid an error to pursue other channels, to turn frequently to the Party Chancellory or Party Member Bormann, and that brought it about that Conti forbade me by a specific order not to turn either to the Reichsministers, Reichsleiter or Gauleiters or write them any letters.
Q Witness, perhaps you could answer with a short yes or no the following questions: Is this correct, the statement of Dr. Conti to the effect that Dr. Blome, that you, Dr. Blome, repeatedly put your office at the disposal of the Chancellory and Dr. Conti, and that had the intention of going back to your private practice?
A Yes, that is true. I offered to resign.
Q Professor, you have heard that the Prosecution is very keen to have the certified that Dr. Rostock and Dr. Gebhardt had their rooms in the same building, and from this fact, that they discussed that it was not very likely that one person in one room wouldn't know about the activities of the person in the other room. Only for this reason I would ask you to let me know and tell us, did you also work in the same house with Dr. Conti or were your offices arid those of Dr. Conti's in different houses?
AAfter April 1939 we were parted. We had our offices both in the Haus der Deutschen Aerzte on Lindenstrasse. In 1940 the Haus der Deutschen Aerzte was hit by a bomb; knocking our a few rooms; and Conti moved to Wilhelmstrasse into the building of the Berlin Party Chancellory. I remained in the Lindenstrasse. Then during the next year I was asked several times by Conti to transfer my office to the building in which he had his office. He had moved several times. I always was able to prevent this and until the conclusion of the war I kept my office in Berlin in the Lindenstrasse.
Q You have noticed; Witness, that I said in the statement Rostock and Gebhardt; and the names mentioned were Rostock and Professor Karl Brandt; but that does not change your statement.
A No, it does not.
DR. SAUTER: I would like to say the association between Conti and blome, I would not like to add anything to it here because that was mentioned by Dr. Kosmehl here, but at the end of the interrogation of Dr. Blome; I shall submit two affidavits which have been certified in the proper manner, as they are private letters; namely; of one from a certain Adolf Witmann and Dr. Dingeldey who was in the Chamber of Physicians. I only point out this now, the documents, so that these two affidavits can be admitted later on. The exhibit numbers of these affidavits will be given later.
Q A few short questions, Dr. Blome; the answers of which can be given in a short and concise form. You were a specialist on cancer research and in 1943 you received a new office as plenipotentiary for cancer research in the Research Office of the Reich.
A That is true.
Q Perhaps you can tell us shortly as you were a member, and I think, a leading member of the Research Counsel, what was the task, how was the position arranged and how did it work. I should only like you to answer these questions in order to give us a complete picture which we have already received by other people, but in order to complete it?
A In 1942, a new law was promoted for the reformation of the old Reich Research Counsel. I belonged to the old and new Reich Research Counsel. The president of the old one was Dr. Becker who was succeeded after his death by Rust. The president of the new counsel was Hermann Goering. The purpose of reformation was to coordinate and centralize to a greater central research in Germany. The president of the Reich Research Counsel had at his disposal for carrying out of his business the following: First the Planning Counsel whose director was Professor Menzel. This was in charge of all administrative and financial matters of the Reich Research Counsel. The research activities of the Reich Research Counsel was justly in the hands of the leaders of specialists under the plenipotentiaries. Later others joined this group who were commissioned for lessor tasks. The specialized leaders were specialists in the field of medicine and science, for instance, physics, chemistry, and so forth. Beside these specialists, leaders on an equal level, there were the plenipotentiaries. There were plenipotentiaries in the following fields -- may I interrupt to say I was the plenipotentiary for cancer research, and also on matters to combat biological warfard. There was a plenipotentiary for automic physics. In other words, there were very specific fields of investigation which were particularly important during the war. These specialists leaders were immediately subordinate to Hermann Goering, and because of the medical nature Goering was the only one who could give them orders or instructions. Specialized leaders and plenipotentiaries determined what research was to be carried out and by whom, and in commissioning certain persons for research, and of the personal equipment which was put at their disposal. The arrangement, and so-called priority sequence was done through the War Economy Department of the Research Counsel. He assigned priority numbers depending on the pressing of the problem, and I believe the armament industry made available certain contingents. Dr. Grauer who was in charge of the classification informed the specialist leaders and plenipotentiary so far as he had the priority numbers at his disposal. Research orders given in this way went directly to the Reich Research Counsel or University or Clinic Directors, and they received assignments for this for themselves and their collaborators.
Q I will ask you a question tomorrow Dr. I think it is time, and I think that the President wants the Tribunal to adjourn.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until 0930 tomorrow morning.
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 14 March 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 1. Military Tribunal 1 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain that the defendants are all present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all defendants are present in court with the exception of the defendant Oberheuser who is absent on account of illness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court save the defendant Oberheuser who is excused on account of illness, being in the hospital.
Counsel may proceed.
KURT BLOME - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. SAUTER (Counsel for the defendant Blome):
Q. Professor, I would like to remind you that today you are also under oath. Yesterday you told us before the court adjourned about the Reich Research Council, and you told us that within the Reich Research Council there were department leaders and plenipotentiaries. I would like to know today how the Reich Research Council worked. As far as I know, the Reich Research Council brought orders and gave them to various scientists. Is that true?
A. Yes.
A. Can you give us a detailed account of how these orders were given out? What I am interested in is - I would like to have clear information - did the Reich Research Council as a central office make any inquiries about the problems of, for instance, food, and questions of the army, and an the basis of these examinations did they give out orders?
This would have been one possibility. The other possibility is this. Did individual research workers who dealt with any problems - did these men approach the Reich Research Council and did they report about the problems with which they were dealing with at this time, and which problems they tried to examine in the future? And did these scientists on their own accord ask for permission or make the proposal that they, or their assistants or their institutes, be ordered to examine these questions and be financed by the Reich Research Council? These Questions, Professor Blome, I would like you to answer clearly, so that the Tribunal has a clear idea about the way the Reich Research Council worked and its tasks.
A. I only know about the last case. I know no cases in which the Reich Research Council by itself had dealt with the source of these Problems or decided which problem was important, and had approached the scientists themselves and asked them to work on these problems. In my own sphere I only know cases in which scientists and research workers or institutes applied to the Reich Research Council, or approached me directly and asked me to give them a certain order and financial and personal support.
Q. So it was, as a rule, that the initiative came from the outside, from the scientists and the institutes, to the Reich Research Council?
A. Yes.
Q. And how was the order given? Did the specialist leader (Fachspartenleiter), viz. the departmental leader or the respective scientific control, the individual specialist leader who was an expert, give these orders himself, or did the entire Reich Research Council or a major section of it have to meet in order to decide these Orders? How was this, Professor?
A. No. On the basis of such requests no sessions or discussions took place. It was rather a matter of the specialist leader, or the plenipotentiary, to give these orders. In this respect he was only responsible to Goering. There was no possibility of objection or protest on the part, of the management or on the part of the President's Council.
I may Quote an example. One day Dr. Conti approached ne; I should give a certain order to such and such a scientist. As I did not agree with this particular order, I refused to give this order, for nobody could give me orders except Goering.
Q. When such a request arrived, which, for instance, came into your province, then you decided yourself, personally, either to give this order or to refuse to do so, or you discussed this natter with the applicant?
A. Yes.
Q Is it also correct to deduce from your statements that the chief of one department--shall we say Geheimrat Sauerbruch, for Classical Medicines--was absolutely working on his own and had nothing to do with the chief of another department. For instance, he had nothing to do with your own department for cancer research? And that one plenipotentiary director of a specialist section was not even enlightened about the tasks of another department.
A What you say is true. What the one did, was not the other's concern. I had no possibilities to tell Sauerbruch anything about his own matters, and he had no possibility to tell me what to do. Only about the entity of all assigned tasks of all specialist leaders (Fachspartenleitcr) and plenipotentiaries an orientation of the entire Reich Research Council took place; that happened every six months every director of a specialist section gave a general report about the tasks, given him. Those orders were collected and printed and copies were sent out to all concerned.
Q Was the purpose of these summaries--was the purpose to inform the individual responsible official, as for instance, you or Geheimrat Sauerbruch, what assignments were given by other members of the Reichs Research Council so that the same problem was not given out in different assignments to different scientists, or did this orientation, given from time to time, serve another purpose too?
A I should like to correct one expression which you used. You used the word official." We were no officials of the Reich research Council; we were not paid for our activities. Our work was honorary. I have never received a penny from the Reich Research Council--not even so-called per diems. That I would like to say in order to correct your expression "official."
As far as these reports were concerned, their purpose was mainly, in my opinion, to inform Goering and the members of the President's Council, generally. It was not the purpose of these reports to give information in order to prevent the individual plenipotentiaries would prevent overlapping in giving assignments. The purpose of the new-organization of the Reich Research Councel under Goering was to transfer these various spheres to responsible individual men in order to avoid overlapping. I shall give an example: Geheimrat Sauerbruch was responsible for the whole sphere of medicine. A second man responsible for medicine, apart from special assignments, such as War and Epidemics Research did not exist. Therefore, it was determined that, with the exception of baby welfare and cancer research, all orders within the Reich were centralized in the office of Sauerbruch. The same was true for all the other fields.
Q Witness, if we follow up the routine in the Reich Research Council, so that application like it was in the translation came from the outside to the Reich Research Council. The Reich Research Council gave out, through you, an assignment, a research assignment. On order, the scientist, the research worker or the Institute received the monies for carrying out of these research assignments. Was that all the Reich Research Council had to do with it--or what happened then? Perhaps I could ask you what did the receiver of the research assignment do, and what was his task?
A First, one got acquainted with the man who was to receive this order and only gave out this assignment if one was certain that the man concerned really worked in this sphere. Apart from this, the man concerned was under duty-I think, every three months; I don't exactly remember--to give a working report to the Reich Research Council, to the parties concerned in the Reich Research Council.
On the basis of this report, I could convince myself whether it was really worked out; whether the work was successful. And, therefore, I had two possibilities: I had the possibility, if necessity arose, to withdraw this research assignment.
Q What happened then, witness, with these reports? For instance, which were given to the persons concerned, and to whom you reported...
A The reports I made use of for my full report which, at regular intervals, I had to submit to the Reich Research Council; and it was not a matter of secret assignments. The research worker concerned was not told how far he was to make value of these assignments. For instance, in the clinic of Professor von Eicken in Berlin, if there was an order in this clinic about throat cancer, it was certain that the scientists concerned published this report in magazines, and gave it thus to the scientists and doctors.
Q Therefore, it was not the case that, for instance, the whole Reich Research Council met every month--or department within the Reich Research Council--and discussed the current results, and consulted about them and decided how these results--for instance, in the interest of all management concerning profession of arms--or other purposes could be made use of. Was this the case or not?
A No; not in this particular way. In bigger intervals there were sessions of the Reich Research Council. During all this time in which I was a member of the Reich Research Council, there was not a single time it happened that Goering, himself, appeared. He said he would come on occasions but he never arrived. The sessions took part in the following manner: The director of specialist sessions reported about their current work, and in these sessions--to these sessions, the members of the presidium council were invited.
And, I regret to say, that part of these men had no interest in these sessions at all because they just did not come. I could imagine, of course, that if, for instance, the plenipotentiary for high frequency research reported--had to report about new results-at such a session, and the Reich Post minister or his deputy had taken part in such a session, that certainly new results would have been made use of, so far as it was in the interest of the Reich Post Ministry or the Information Office.
Q I would like to ask you a last question about the Reich Research Council, witness, concerning the importance and the significance of the charge of the Prosecution about conspiracy. This is the main reason why we are dealing with the Reich Research Council so explicitly. When those research assign ments were given out to individual research-workers, or to institutes, was special care taken about the receivers of those assignments being Party members or members of formations like the SS, or was it necessary that they were politically sound, or according to what principles in personnel direction were these assignments given out? Would you like to say something about this matter?
A We, as directors of specialist sections, would have been fools if we had given out these assignments according to political views. Political views were not concerned in this at all -- the main point was the ability and efficiency of the research worker.
Q And if I leave this special sphere now I should like to know one thing more. What you have told us now, was that the whole activity of the Reich Research Council -- the giving out of assignments, the financing of same, the receiving of reports, etc., -- or had the Reich Research Council other purposes and if so, which?
A I know nothing about additional tasks of the Reich Research Council and I also do not know what other tasks could have been dealt with by the Reich Research Council.
Q So these, therefore, were the only tasks of the Reich Research Council?
A Yes.
Q Apart from this activity within the Reich Research Council did you have other tasks to perform, witness? In 1943 you became Plenipotentiary for Cancer Research, which was an honorary office and which was somehow in connection with the Reich Research Council. I would like to know how it was that just you received this special order for cancer research. Since when and in what way did you deal with the cancer research and how was it that you were interested in it?
A The cancer problem had always interested me. Since 1935, apart from the problem of tuberculosis, I had become interested in the cancer problem. In 1936, perhaps it was 1935, I was a member of the German delegation which was led by Geheimrat Borst which took part in the great International Congres in Brussels for cancer research. At the same time I founded the Council for inflammation research in Mecklenburg; under collaboration of Mr. Lasch. This was the first time that in a country with homogeneous population any cancer research was dealt with in the statistic. I would like to draw the attention of the interpreters to the word "krankenstatistiks." This means statistics of sick people. This was the first time, unlike all other statistics in the world, so-called mortality statistics, hospital statistics, and success statistics -- this was the first time, as I said, that statistics were made about the fate of cancer which dealt with every case of cancer disease within the country. In spite of the fact that there was no authoritative notice that every case of cancer had to be reported, through a special service which I created in Mecklenburg, every case of cancer in the country, from its report until death, was registered and was differentiated within certain questions. All questions were taken into account which had come up in the scientific literature as received on cancer. The voluntary collaboration of university professors; directors of institutes, chiefs of hospitals, and all the practicing physicians within the country, promised such success that I planned the same sort of institution for Saarland, for Saxonia-Anhalt, and for the country surrounding Vienna, and I actually created these institutions. Thus, all cases of cancer were being dealt with in a way that had never been done before. To make use of all material, a large number of questionnaires were filled out, but our adversaries were taken by surprise from Russian part in 1945 and the material would not be returned; but I hope that in the future there will be a possibility to make use of all this material as it will be a service to humanity.
In 1937 Geheimrat Borst elected me into the directory of the Reich Council of Cancer Research, of which Geheimrat Koenig was a member from Wuerz burg, and Professor Huettner in Berlin, apart from Borst himself. We signed for the internationally recognized scientific magazine for cancer research. A** there is no disease which has as many causes as cancer and which has been dealt within so much literature and on which so much research has been done, I made a special study of the whole sphere of cancer and arrived at the result that the creation of a central institute for cancer research would become necessary. Large sums were necessary for the financing of this and we had the support of Professor Loenne in Dusseldorf until the beginning of the war; 50,000,000 marks were given over to me from voluntary sources within the industry and we expected to increase this to 150,000,000 marks. The war ended my plans suddenly. In spite of this I attempted to proceed further. In 1940 I sent a memorandum to Hitler, and Hess and Bormann told me, by order of Hitler, that after the war I would be able to found a central institute which I had asked for. I had asked for the sum of 350,000,000 marks from Bormann and said that this was the necessary amount. Hitler told me, through Bormann, that the amount was a negligible matter and that the material and sums which I needed would be put at my disposal. As I did not want to wait for the end of the war, in 1942 I founded the institute for cancer research and had it financed within the Reich Research Council; the institute became one of the formations of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute. Gauleiter Greiser, in Wartheland, who had heard of my plans, offered all possible support providing that this institute would be built in his own country. I accepted his offer and received for the foundation of a temporary institute that little estate (Nesselstedt) which was a part of government property. This little estate was near Posen.
We will come back to this later in connection with the intended research for the fighting of biological warfare methods.
On the 1st of June 1943 I took over this Nesselstedt officially. I must also mention that this Central Institute for Cancer Research, which I had founded - after I had teen made the Plenipotentiary for Cancer Research, I was elected as a leading neater of the Reich Research Council.
Q. Professor Blome, in this book which I offered to the Tribunal as Exhibit No. 1, which bears the title "The Doctor in Warfare", which is a kind of autobiography, you deal with this cancer problem. I would be interested in knowing, in order to realize the importance of cancer research, what your opinion is as a specialist. How many people in Germany died of cancer, not considering those cases in which the diagnosis of cancer could not be stated exactly?
A. At that tine when I started my cancer statistics most people were of the opinion that tuberculosis had the first place in the mortality statistics. I proved then beyond doubt that death through cancer took the first place in the statistics of mortality.
Perhaps I could make an additional explanation. The life expectancy of a human being is over 60 years. Therefore, more than half of all human beings live to the age of much more than 45. Of these people who live to an older age than 45 every sixth or seventh person dies of cancer This can be proved. These are not only a lot of German statistics but the same can be seen from statistical reports of the United States of America.
It is therefore quite evident that cancer is the nest terrible disease which humanity suffers from. First, death by cancer is far from agreeable; mostly that death is connected with long and bad suffering. Secondly, the solution of the cancer problem, also from the point of view of the social question, is very important. Of course, one must consider especially in this age that many people die when they are Still necessary for the education and the well-being of their children. These children live without parents and at an age when they need their parents especially Especially as cancer takes the first place in mortality statistics and because, from the social point of view, it presents such a huge problem, because of these reasons I had decided to work on the solution of this problem which was so important.
And you, Dr. Sauter, are quite correct if you draw the attention of the Tribunal to this book, because the last chapter of my book shows that my last aim was, as far as it was within my power, to work towards a solution of this problem.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, is it correct that regarding your efforts --
THE PRESIDENT: This examination has run, for some time, far beyond the field of evidence in this case. The Tribunal does not desire to unduly limit witnesses. The witness may tell what he has done but these extensive excursions into fields wholly unconnected with this case has really, in this instance, gone far enough. The book which the witness has written is in evidence and is before the Tribunal. I think that the examination should be more nearly confined to the case at bar.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Witness, I begin with another chapter now, which I would have arrived at in any case. Is it correct that, regarding your efforts towards the fighting of cancer in 1942, you were offered the job of professor and received it with the order to deal with the assignment of people's diseases?
A. Beginning in 1942, on account of my work in dealing with people's diseases, I was nominated as professor honoris causa on the medical faculty in Berlin.
Q. Witness, you received another research assignment which was called a secret research assignment; that is, the research assignment of biological warfare. This assignment was dealt with explicitly by the prosecution. I would like to ask you, therefore, to give a short account of your work within this secret assignment and what general activities were yours in order to deal with this assignment.
A. With my nomination as Plenipotentiary for Biological Warfare the secret assignment was connected with research on defense against biological warfare.
The purpose of this order was the connecting and the making active of the fields which were dealt with by the Wehrmacht as two different ones. The three provinces were human being, animal, and Plant.
Q. When did you receive this research assignment?
A. Together with my nomination as Plenipotentiary, which must have teen 1943.
Q. Witness, the book "The Doctor in Warfare" has been mentioned "Arzt in Kampf" - which is Exhibit No. 1. The book came out in 1941, at a time when Germany had huge military successes in the East and West. You did not mention the second World War in this book. How is that?
A. I wrote that book in 1940 and I finished it in 1941. In this book I deal with my own experience in the World War - I mean, the first World War - and the later time until 1939. Whoever reads this book will be able to state, concerning my life and my activities, that I developed my life from the military side to the side of science and research. In the course of my activities in health Policy my highest aim had crystallized itself, as I have mentioned before, to use my influence and my ability for the fighting of people's diseases. If I made these tasks the main aims of my life, it is obvious that a war can only hinder or destroy these aims.