Q In the same session, 18 February, another document was submitted No. 1315, Exhibit 454, a file note of the 4 January, 1942, which again deals with the production of typhus vaccine. The heading is: Reich Ministry of the Interior and Ministerialrat, Dr. Bieber, is mentioned. Did this Dr. Bieber have anything to do with your office? Was he under your authority? Did he report to you?
A No. Ministerialrat Professor Bieber had nothing to do with the Reich Chamber of Physicians or with the office of public health. He was ministerialrat in the ministry of the Interior. He was under Dr. Conti there. He was in charge of the department for epidemic control. He was an expert in Hygiene and Bacteriology.
Q Now, witness, I come to a different problem. That is, the suggestion made that time that the Poles should be liquidated, that is, the Poles suffering from incurable contagious tuberculosis. A Document Book was submitted on that subject. Concerning your participation in the plan for the extermination of tuberculous Poles you were examined in January 1946 at Oberursel, and on 9 and 22 October 1946 here in the Prison. Were the statements you made at that time true?
A Yes. But, I must add that concerning this business about the tuberculous Poles, as far as I recall, I said it was in 1943, while in reali-ty, as the files now show, it took place in 1942. I must also say that my letter to Greiser in November 1942 has been shown to me here. I was asked whether this was my letter, whether I had written this letter. I said "No". I said this because it was not a photostatic copy, but a photostatic copy of a copy. I objected to several things in the letter and did not acknowledge it at that time. They were external matters which occasioned me to make that statement. Later, however, in December, when you took over my case, you gave me this photostatic copy, and I had an opportunity to study it carefully and reconstruct conditions which had existed at the time and, therefore, I now acknowledge this letter as authentic.
Q Is it true, Dr. Blome, that the Prosecution learned for the first time of this plan to exterminate the Poles through you? Dr. Blome, what can you say about that?
A Yes. The Prosecution learned from me for the first time of this plan. In 1942 I told my interrogator, Captain Urbach at Oberursel, after he had described the details of the atrocities which I had not known about up to that time.
Q You just said 1942.
A I meant 1945. I meant December 1945. I beg your pardon. I do not believe that the Prosecution had any knowledge of this, at least not at Oberursel.
Q Dr. Blome, this whole matter begins with a letter of the Reich Governor Greiser of the first of May 1942 which is in Document Book 9, page 1. It is Document 246, exhibit 196. Tell us briefly who was Greiser.
A This was Arthur Greiser, Gauleiter of the Warthegau, the Reich Governor of the Wartheland, and the Reich Defense Commissioner of the Wartheland.
Q This Gauleiter Greiser, who was a Gauleiter in a district which now belongs to Poland, on the first of May 1942 sent a letter to the Reich Fuehrer SS suggesting that Poles suffering from tuberculosis in the Wartheland should be liquidated if the existence of open tuberculosis and the incurability of the patients was established by official doctors. In this regard Greiser writes, and this is what I want to ask you about, I quote, "The increasing dangers were also recognized and appreciated by Deputy Reich Leader of Public Health, Dr. Blome, as well as by SS Foreigners Battalion SS Fremdensturmbann Leader SS, Dr. Hohlfelder." That is the quotation. What can you tell us today about the apparently early discussion between you and Gauleiter Greiser?
A I talked to Gauleiter Greiser about combating tuberculosis in Wartheland about three times, certainly once in the presence of Professor Hohlfelder. These discussions go back to the year 1941. I can recall that Greiser once said that the simplest thing would be to treat the incurable tuberculous Poles exactly like the insane persons by Euthanasia. I pointed out that the comparison was not valid. The Poles, I said also, were not German citizens. The plan which Greiser was considering was a radical solution but I could not agree to it. When sometime later I learned of the so-called Fuehrer order according to which the Euthanasia action was stopped and prohibited I considered this matter, respectively the statement of Greiser, settled. Then the year 1942 was filled with purely organizational preparation for the tuberculosis action. For example: All the population had to be collected in card index files, Germans as well as Poles; preparations had to be made for the medical and clinical care of the sick, preparations for x-ray examinations.
Then these examinations had to be evaluated, etc. The latter was a matter for the State Health offices, the NSV, that is the National Socialists Welfare organization and the X-Ray Battalion (Sturmbann) which was to carry out these examinations technically. From time to time I had a report from Professor Hohlfelder about the preparations. Only when all prerequisites were fulfilled, did I give my approval for such a big action. The execution of this action was dependent upon my personal approval. Only then did I take any action in this tuberculosis matter in the Warthegau -when I received alarming reports about the insensible liquidation order from Himmler. I learned of it because at the beginning of November Sturmbannfuehre Perwitschky came to my office in Berlin and reported to me that Greiser had an order from Himmler that incurably sick cases of tuberculosis, found in the planned examinations in the Wartheland, were to be liquidated. Perwitschky belonged to the X-Ray Battalion. He was business manager for the society combatting tuberculosis. Then I immediately reached an agreement with Perwitschky that I would meet Professor Hohlfelder at Posen to discuss the matter and to prevent Himmler's and Greiser's plans from being carried out. I went to Posen. I discussed the matter with Hohlfelder. We were both greatly astonished at this order from Himmler. We agreed that this order must not be carried out, and that we as German doctors could not lend our hand to such an action. We discussed the manner in which this Himmler-Greiser plan could be frustrated. We decided that I should go to Greiser first of all. I telephoned Greiser from this conference and said that it was very important that I should speak to him. Then I talked to him on the same day, or on the next day. When I asked Greiser whether Himmler's orders for liquidating were correct, he said "Yes." He said he had the order in his hands. I said that I was willing to prevent this plan in any case and I explained why. I said that as a doctor I could not participate in this and, in the second place, I pointed out the political danger connected with such a crime.
Then Greiser agreed that I was to write a letter for him which he would pass on to Himmler for a decision. As for Greiser's letter to Himmler of the 1st of May 1942, which you just mentioned, Dr. Sauter, I learned of it for the first time from the files here, and Himmler's opinion on my letter of November 1942 I learned of here for the first time too. Up to that time I did not know about Himmler's letter to Greiser. In the letter of the 1st of May 1942 from Greiser to Himmler Greiser writes - I quote, "that Hohlfelder and Blome recognized the ever-increasing risks and appreciated them." But he doesn't write that Hohlfelder and I approved liquidation. The letter does not say that. My basic opinion on the problem is the following: Let us suppose that we, in Germany, had a valid law for the liquidation of incurably sick persons but, assuming that such a law did exist, then it would, of course, be out of the question to apply it to non-Germans. Application in this case would be a crime, especially during war. Germany had occupied foreign territory and, as occupying power, had to observe international law in the treatment given to the occupied to the occupied territories. As for the problem of tuberculosis, I had dealt with it for some time, especially since 1935 when I had incorporated the tuberculosis question into the post-graduate medical training. In 1937 Professor Janker, Bonn, a wellknown X-ray specialist, called upon me for aid in developing a new procedure which, with a minimum of cost, would make it possible to examine large groups of the population. This was the so-called. X-ray screen photography which was developed. I shall give you a brief explanation of this. For an X-ray picture of the lungs a film had been needed of 24 by 30 centimeters. This new procedure required only a film of about 4 by 4 centimeters. That is, the so-called Leica size. The pictures are taken with a Leica. The X-ray screen was photographed. The successful development of this procedure meant that in place of the price for an X-ray picture, which the Social Insurance had paid, of from twelve to thirteen marks, it now could be produced for about ten pfennigs: that is, less than 1 percent.
The further value of the development of this procedure was that one would not need several minutes for an X-ray picture, but that this procedure was developed to such an extent that we could take two hundred to three hundred pictures per minute. Together with Janker I developed this screen picture procedure until we came to the results which I have just described. At the X-ray Congress in 1938 in Munich in May I made this procedure public and I observed that with the aid of this procedure public and I observed that with the aid of this procedure one could begin a large scale fight against tuberculosis. Only a few people believed my words at the time and some people smiled Pityingly. After this Congress Professor Hohlfelder, who was later commander of the X-ray battalion, came to me and, working together with X-ray science, optical industry, film industry, X-ray industry, screen industry, etc., we developed the procedure during the course of that same year to such an extent that in a short time we were able to X-ray the whole Province of Meclenburg. The procedure was then gradually developed so that we could easily have X-rayed ten million or more in Germany per year. Then, during the war, at my instigation in 1939 and 1940 we X-rayed the whole Province of Westfalia; then in 1941 the whole province of Wuerttemberg, including Hohenzollern, and now there was a plan to X-ray the Wartheland. Gauleiter Greiser had approached me because approval had to be obtained from me and I gave such approval only if all prerequisites were given so that the patients who were discovered could be given the necessary medical and clinical attention. It had been our experience in these examinations that we found 1 percent new tuberculosis causes which had hitherto been completely unknown. For the Warthegau along, with a Polish population of four and one-half millions, that would have been forty-five thousand new cases of tuberculosis, not counting the ten thousand from the one million German population. I had reserved the approval for such actions because at that time, with the development of this invention, a plan of irresponsible X-raying was being carried out by various Gauleiters and by large industries. Everyone wanted to take up the battle against tubercu losis but that would have been a disaster unless there had been this block that, when whole groups of population were X-rayed, there had to be the necessary preparation of medical supplies from the beginning.
Otherwise, there would have been a catastrophe. Through this action and through many new cases of tuberculosis which were discovered, I knowingly put the state in a difficult situation. I forced the state to issue a new law for the fight against tuberculosis. This law which was issued was the Tuberculosis Aid Law. This law formed the basis for the lung examinations of the population of the Wartheland which was actually carried out in 19431944, and the advantages of this law, it can be proved, were not to the advantage only of the German population in the Warthegau, but also of the Polish population, as is clearly seen from the affidavit of Regierungsdirektor Dr. Guntermann. Dr. Guntermann was the Chief Medical Officer of the Wartheland; that is, he had the main responsibility for the fight against tuberculosis in this Gau.
Q. Dr. Blome, before we go into the letter of the 18th of November 1942, which is Document 250 in Document Book 9, I should like to go back to the time in the spring of 1942. We just heard of a letter from Gauleiter Greiser of the 1st of May 1942, where he suggests that Poles suffering from tuberculosis should be liquidated. Where he writes "that the ever increasing risks were also recognized and appreciated by the Deputy of the Reichaerztefuehrer, Professor Dr. Blome." So far the quotation. You said that Greiser does not mention that you approved the plan for the liquidation of the Poles. I would be interested in knowing what your attitude was at that time in the spring of 1942 toward this plan. Did you approve of the plan to liquidate tubercular Poles? Did you reject it? What did you say about it?
A. In the spring of 1942 I expressed no attitude in respect to this plan at all. The discussion with Greiser, as I said, went back to the year 1941, at the time when the euthanasia action was still in operation. In 1942 I did not talk to Greiser about such a plan at all. I had no knowledge that Greiser intended to write this letter in May 1942 to Himmler, or that he did write it. I learned of it only here. After Greiser made his statements in connection with euthanasia, but the euthanasia action had been stopped by Hitler's order, of course I assumed that such ideas on the part of Greiser were settled too. I did not approve of his ideas, as I said before.
Q. Then, if I understand you correctly, you did not deal with this matter in the fall of 1942 when this Prawitzchky brought you alarming news?
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. Can you tell us why Gauleiter Greiser discussed this tuberculosis problem specially with you?
A. The reason was, as I have already said, that the execution of such an action depended on my approval. If I said the Warthegau will not be X-rayed, it was not X-rayed, even if the Gauleiter stood on his head.
Q. Dr. Blome, Gauleiter Greiser was not thinking of X-raying apparently but of liquidating. The letter of 1 May 1942, where he makes the suggestion speaks only of liquidation. It says nothing about X-raying. I would like to find out how you got into this matter -- when you heard of Greiser's plan for the first time, this plan to eliminate the tubercular Poles?
A. Of course Gauleiter Greiser was thinking of X-raying; that is the pre-requisite for finding incurable cases of tuberculosis.
Q. Then, witness, on the 16th of November you wrote a letter, which is in Document Book 9, as Prosecution Document 250, Exhibit 203. This is the letter concerning which the Prosecution has said that it was a "masterpiece of murderous intention." Did you discuss this letter beforehand with the Reich Physician Leader, Dr. Conti?
A. No. After I had talked to Greiser I saw Conti briefly in Berlin or I went to see Conti and report to him about the plan and about my talk with Greiser.
Dr. Conti said - "What do you want? That's an order from the Reichsfuehrer, that is, Himmler." Then I said to Conti what I had agreed upon with Kreiser and that I would write a letter to that effect to be sent on to Himmler. Then he agreed to that and agreed to my writing this letter. But I did not discuss the contents with Mr. Conti. I did not see any point in doing so. This statement of Conti's showed that he knew about this plan of liquidation.
Q. Witness, this letter which you wrote to Gauleiter Greiser, where you opposed liquidation of the Poles -- did you write this by yourself or did you discuss the formulation of this letter with anyone?
A. First I wrote the letter by myself. After I had come back to Berlin from Posen I had to go to Munich. After I came back from Munich I wrote this letter. I made various rough drafts. It was not easy. I had discussed the general tactics with Hohfelder that we would start right at the beginning of the letter by apparently agreeing to the ideas but then in the second part of the letter to list all political factors which might induce Himmler and the others to give up such an action. It was not easy to write such a letter. I worried about this letter a great deal until I thought I finally had a right draft.
In my preliminary interrogation an interrogator asked me something to this effect: "Why did you not simply give up your office and resign when you heard about this plan?" I must say the following: It would, of course, have been the simplest thing for me to take advantage of this opportunity to give up my position. Then I would have had nothing more to do with the whole matter, at least 40,000 Poles would have been murdered, and I would not be under indictment today for this point.
Please excuse me for saying this but I must say it when such a charge is made against me. I will try to speak as dispassionately as possible. Dr. Sauter had just said that the Prosecution considers my letter a "masterpiece of murderous intention." I now state the following. The Prosecution, in addition to this questionable affidavit of Rudolf Brandt, has not a single document to prove the murder of tubercular Poles by me. On the contrary, the Prosecution has submitted Himmler's answering letter of the end of November 1942, according to which, Himmler, in answer to my letter, prohibited the liquidation of the tubercular Poles and this letter expressly says that my suggestion was to be realized and that this matter was to be used in propaganda. Never-the-less, the Prosecution makes such charges in this form against me. I am accused of being a murderer 10,000 times for a crime which I did not commit but which I prevented, as I can prove. I should like to say something else. The press, of course, has taken up this charge. I can not hold that against the press. The consequence of this news, however was that my family, my wife and my little children, are subjected to unplease and even threats. Through this assertion of the Prosecution the name of Blome been defamated in such a way as it does not deserve, especially not if it can be proved that one prevented the crime with which one is charged.
MR. HARDY: If it please Your Honor, I object to any further comment of this type from the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Objection overruled. Witness may continue.
A I beg your pardon if I got rather excited. I should like to conclude statement by saying that I hope that this case will soon be cleared up and that then the press will be chivalrous enough to state that I not only did not commit this crime but that I actually prevented it.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I should like to discuss with the witness the letter of 18 November 1942 in which the defendant prevented the murder of the Poles. It will take some time. I believe this would be a good time to break.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal, desires to announce to all concerned that the next few days, at least, the Tribunal will not take an afternoon recess at 3:30 o'clock will recess until 9:30 o'clock the next morning. The Tribunal will now be in recess until 1:30.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours)
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Resumed.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Witness, during the morning session you explained to us among other things the new manner of x-ray photography, the so-called screen photograph; you stated that using this new method one could use 200 to 300 photos per minute; were you not wrong, didn't you mean perhaps per hour and not per minute?
A Yes, per hour.
Q I just wanted to correct that so that it does not appear erroneously in the record. We shall continue, witness, with the letter, which we had discussed repeatedly, the letter of November 18, 1942, which is to be four in Document Book No. 9 regarding the extermination of Poles, it is No. 250 Exhibit 203, that is Document 250, Exhibit 203. It is a letter in which you define your attitude to the proposal made by Greiser namely to liquidate these tubercular Poles; do you know the contents of that letter?
A Yes.
Q In this letter you made certain proposals, may I ask you to tell us what suggestions you actually made in that letter; do you need the letter for that purpose?
A Thank you, I have it. As the most suitable suggestion, I consider my suggestion to create an area, an area in which one could put the tubercular Poles and I reminded of the well known throughout the world leper areas. I must emphasize that there is a considerable difference between tuberculosis and leprosy.
When I made the last draft of my letter, the leading medical office the War the Gau was suddenly announced to me and Dr. Gundermann was the highest state medical officer of the Warthe Gau. Dr. Gundermann reported to me and said that he had just come from Dr. Conti, he said that he heard rumor from the Warthe Gau, according to which tubercular Poles were to be liquidate Dr. Conti maintained a very evasive attitude toward him so he actually left Dr. Conti without having acquired any results and thereupon he had decide come to me.
I told him that he had come at the most suitable moment, I explained to him the position as it had developed in the meantime. I told him of my conversation with Hohlfelder and of my conversation with Greiser and the letter which was arranged. He was very pleased about it and was pleased that I had the same rejecting attitude that he had. I showed him the draft of my letter and he made a few suggestions in that connection. The number of geographical details in the letter originated actually from Gundermann. In particular, he emphasized the importance of a special settlement of the tubercular Poles and he recognized this as the most suitable solution. Sued suggestions I had already known, especially coming from the tuberculosis meeting of the year 1937. During that meeting, two well known German tuberculosis experts, Dr. Dorn and Dr. Hein had lectured about tuberculosis settlements, excerpts from these speeches are contained in my document book. I that experiments had been made with such tuberculosis settlements not only in Germany, but also in England. When making my suggestion to Himmler I explained in detail how such a suggestion could be realized, in my letter I explained the tactics that were to be used, taking into consideration the mentality of people like Greiser and Himmler and made it appear as though I wanted to agree to their liquidation program. Afterwards I cited all the political misgivings I had by naming individual examples that I could cite. I then said that on one experiment the severely ill people and the people where there was a danger of infection would be excluded and I said that Polish physicians and Polish nursing personnel were to be attached to these severe ill patients in order to avoid the appearance of a death camp. Every physicians knows, and it is also known in lay-men circles, that if one isolates severe ill people, such an isolation is soon being considered as an isolation for death and that is why I said that the necessary Polish physicians and the nursing personnel had to be attached to these camps. I considered as my big suggestion the creation of a reservation for all tubercular Poles.
In particular, I wish to point out the following in my letter, I said and I quote: "I could imagine that the Fuehrer having sometime ago stopped the program in the insane asylums might at this moment considers a special treatment of the incurably sick as unsuitable and irresponsible from a political point of view."
I mentioned that because Grieser's suggestion from the year 1941 pointed to a comparison with the Euthanasia action, but in order to be quite sure that these political misgivings also reached Hitler and that the decision was not mainly in the hands of Himmler, I sent a copy of my letter directly to Martin Bormann. I furthermore want to point out the following matter, I said: "I consider any secrecy as completely impossible." In this connection, I should like to point to a letter concerning a different acts namely the letter of the deputy gauleiter of the Lower Danube, dated the 1942, where experiments are being suggested for the sterilization of nation groups such as gypsies. In this letter, contrary to my letter, a completed different tactic is used. The deputy gauleiter of the Lower Danube states that one has to keep such an action very secret, because otherwise it would have serious consequences from the point of view of the state.
MR.HARDY: Is it your intention to put this letter you are referring in evidence or is he merely quoting from his own letter?
THE INTERPRETER: The question did not come through.
MR. HARDY: Is it the intention of the defendant to put the letter he is referring to in as evidence, or is he merely quoting from his own letter.
THE PRESIDENT: Can counsel for the defendant Blome advise the Tribunal on that point?
DR. SAUTER: This is a letter which was already used by the Prosecution and that in that manner came to the knowledge of the indictment and, therefore can be quoted by him. It is certainly not necessary to submit this letter once more.
THE PRESIDENT: Would Counsel please identify the letter, the Exhibit and where it maybe found.
DR. SAUTER: One moment, please. Mr. President, this letter was submitted by the Prosecution in their document book number six in regard to sterilization experiments. It was submitted as document number 039 -- I repeat 039 -- exhibit of the Prosecution number 153 -- 153. This is a letter by the Deputy Gauleiter of the Lower Danube district addressed to the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler dated the 24th of August 1942. This letter was already submitted by the Prosecution.
THE PRESIDENT: In Document book 6 can you give me the page of the document book.
DR. SAUTER: In the German document book it can be found on page one, six, 16.
THE PRESIDENT: Very Well, that is sufficient.
DR. SAUTER: Document 039.
THE PRESIDENT: The examination may proceed.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Doctor, will you please finish your answer?
A. In this letter the Deputy Gauleiter of the Lower Danube district writes to Himmler, and I quote:
"We are quite clear about the fact that such examination must be considered as absolute State secrets." That is exactly contrary to tho tactics which I used. I say:
"I think that any secrecy is quite impossible," and I give my reasons for that individually. I should merely give you a short excerpt from my letter I am pointing out how many Polish workers are in the German Reich. I point out that there would be questions from their relatives about their whereabouts.
I point to a number of Germans who are related to these Poles. I point out that in the case of the Poles we are concerned with members of a conquered nation. I further point out that certain circles would spread a rumor among the population that similar methods would be used in case of German tubercular patients in the future. I further show that in connection with the appointment of Professor Brandt to the Commissioner General, foreign broadcasts spread reports according to which Brandt was no longer considered with the rehabilitation of seriously wounded people but only with these people who had only been slightly wounded. I point to their reaction which would result in the case of such a crime with the Italian physicians and scientists as well as with the entire Italian population. I further more point to the church, and I say then and I quote:
"Therefore, I think it is necessary to explain all these points of view to the Fuehrer before undertaking the program."
With reference to my suggestion for a settlement, a reservation, I say in the one but last paragraph of my letter, and I quote:
"After a proper examination of all these considerations and circumstance the creation of a reservation such as the reservations for lepers seems to be the most practical solution."
Before that I had suggested that these settlements of tubercular person should be arranged in such a manner that the members of their families who were willing could also be settled there. In this manner in addition to the necessary nursing personnel and the necessary Polish physicians, the necessary medical care would be safeguarded.
Q. Witness, you previously referred to your suggestions, and you spoke about a congress regarding tuberculosis questions in which you participated.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I have an excerpt from the record of this tuberculosis congress which I have submitted in Document Book Blome No. 14. That is Document Book Blome No. 14, page 24 to 30. This is a report about the third international congress -- one moment. Yes, it is No. 14. It is a report on the proceedings of the German Tuberculosis Conference dated the 18th to the 20th of March 1937, which took place at Wiesbaden.
The reviews to reproduced here.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, this document is found in supplemental documents, Blome, page 24, and not the document book -- supplemental documents.
DR. SAUTER: Yes, in the supplemental volume. In this report a paper by two-well-known German tuberculosis experts is mentioned, one a Dr. Erwin Lorn, who was the chief physician of a lung sanitorium, Charlettenhoeche, and a certain Dr. Joachim Hein, who was the director of a lung sanitorium at Holstein. I am not going to read these papers in detail, but I ask the Tribunal to take judicial notice of them. I presented these reports of the conference in order to show that the same suggestions which this Defendant, Dr. Blome, had made in the year of 1942 when writing to Gauleiter Greiser are also contained here in the year of 1937 and were made during the German Tuberculosis Conference. These proposals were made not dealing with foreign tubercular persons, but dealing with German tubercular person.
THE PRESIDENT: Do Counsel offer this document into evidence?
DR. SAUTER: It will become Exhibit No. 6, Blome Exhibit No. 6.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Witness, in this letter of the 18th of December 1942, about which we are speaking now, you really dealt with three proposals; one, special treatment of the seriously ill persons; two, most rigorous isolation of the serious ill persons, that is to say, separation from the outside population; thirdly, creation of a reservation area for ill tubercular patients in Poland. Now when reading your letter, and I put that to you, one gains the impression, or at least one could gain the impression, that you were speaking in favor of your first suggestion in the first part of your letter, namely, the special treatment of the seriously ill persons, which is to say their liquidation as it was suggested and wanted by Himmler and Greiser.
My question is: Why didn't you simply declare in your letter of the 16th of November 1942, very frankly that this liquidation of the incurably ill tubercular Poles, as it was suggested by Greiser and Himmler, is a crime; it can under no circumstances be permitted and that I, Dr. Blome, would have nothing to do with any such proposal?
Why didn't you write to Greiser at that time in that sense?
A I think that this morning I already defined my attitude toward that question very shortly and I state again the most favorable thing to me would have been just to point out the criminal aspects of this proposal when writing my letter, but I knew the mentality of these gentlemen and it was quite clear in my mind that the expression of any such point of view could only have a negative result, and in doing that I wouldn't have saved myself and much less 30,000 tubercular Poles, and they would have then been actually liquidate. If I had not wanted to represent my true point of view, frankly then I wouldn't have had to think for days about writing my letter. Then this would have been a matter of at least five or ten minutes. I would just have had to dictate the letter and mail it, but I had become clear in my mind, and that was also the opinion of Professor Hohlfelder, that I would have appeared as if I agreed to this proposal if I wanted to have any success with my counter proposals. I was convinced that the list of all the political aspects which could bring any danger could only be of any effect if the success of my procedure quite clearly speak for my tactics. Yes, Himmler wanted really to realize this proposal I made or he wanted to exploit it propagandisticly, that is stated clearly in tho letter Himmler to Greiser, dated at the end of November, 1942, the documentary value of my letter can objectively be seen only in tho following: It shows, firstly, during that time of brutal thinking, men like Himmler had no room for any ailment of any human nature; secondly, only through an open and clear statement of the ailments could the crime against 10,000 of Poles be prevented, and I was only concerned with success.
Q Witness, the one suggestion which you put forth in your letter was No. which says:
"Most rigorous isolation of tho serious ill persons". With reference to the subject, the Prosecution states that during the meeting of the 19 December that you had the idea to bring these tubercular patients into institutions and I quote them:
"You voided that opinion so that a relatively now technique of these patients could be effected in these institutions."
Was that really your intention, and did you think of any such possibility at that time, that is when you made the suggestion?
A On the contrary I cannot recognize the evidence of the Prosecution regarding that point as being lawful. Had it been my intention to let these patients die, then I wouldn't have demanded that they be given necessary physicians and the necessary nursing personnel. In addition I want to point out what I have already said dealing with that point.
Q The other suggestion you made at that time and which is listed under figure 3 of your letter is the creation of a reservation for all T B patients and during the same meeting of the 19 December the Prosecution said with reference to that proposal and I quote:
"With this plan, that is, to bring all patients into a reservation and thereby isolate them from the rest of the population, you, Dr. Blome, have wanted to bring about that those ill Poles would be left with very few physician and with little nursing personnel to their fate, and in this way the aim of liquidation of these Poles was to be realized". What do you have to say, Dr. Blome, to this motive, as it was asserted by the Prosecution?
A This motive is not correct. The contrary can clearly be seen from my letter. In that connection I may point to the explanation which I made previously regarding my letter. Furthermore, I point to tho affidavit of Dr. Gunderman I had exactly the contrary interest to what the Prosecution tries to charge me with. I had this contrary interest only for the reason because I was planning the very same thing for Germany after the war, and if I had been able to carry through such an action and if I had been able to show any success in that action it would have been easier for me later on to have stopped these plans, rather the plans already mentioned, during that tuberculosis meeting of 1937 by pointing to the success which I made in the Warthe Gau. Even today I realize as well we haven't been able to bring about any really effecting medical treatment against tuberculosis or any vaccination against tuberculosis; that the only really effective solution is the creation of such settlement areas or reservations.
Q Dr. Blome, from your book, entitled: "Physician in Combat", which has been submitted in evidence as Blome Exhibit No.1, in it's entirety, it can be seen for quite a long time to have waged a fight against tuberculosis. Can you tell us on the basis of your experiences whether these proposals which you made in your letter 18 December, 1942, that is, either the housing of the tuberculosis institution, accommodation of the tuberculars in a reservation area whether these suggestions were completely different from the manner of the tuberculosis control as it was exercised in various foreign countries up to that time or if one didn't speak about the fight against tuberculosis one could speak about other infectious diseases of the same importance as tuberculosis?
A Naturally the plan to install a tuberculosis settlement on a large scale doesn't represent anything absolutely new because as it can be seen from the documents submitted regarding the tuberculosis settlements, such tuberculosis settlements had existed in England and Holland in addition to Germany with great success, but on the other hand the realization of this settlement idea would represent an enormous progress in the tuberculosis fight generally. The existence of the war difficulties, that existed in the year 1942 and 1943 did not permit this plan to be realized as it was suggested by me for the Warthe Gau, but the fight against tuberculosis continues in the usual character as it was possible during the war and as it was handled throughout the Reich, including the Germans. In other countries; other experiments were made. For instance in the year 1935 certain well known people in tho city of Detroit in America, made a large scale experiment for the combat of tuberculosis. After the preparations were made the entire population of Detroit was asked by means of an enormous propaganda by press and radio to report to examination stations for tuberculosis in order to find cut the scarce of the infection. The city of Detroit had put necessary facilities at the disposal necessary to carry out the examination and a certain success must be realized. Especially, the colored population of Detroit reported in their entirety, or almost their entirety, for the purpose of these examinations, and American literature on the other hand complained that this wasn't fully the case with the white population.