Q. Witness, did you ever hear the term Euthanasia in connection with the Buchenwald Concentration Camp?
A. Yes.
Q. What do you know about it?
A. Euthanasia was the word that was used for the killing of the inmates.
Q. What type inmates were killed under the guise of Euthanasia, witness?
A. I never saw that -- not this. I don't know what prisoners were chosen or who chose them. Consequently, I cannot answer your question.
Q. Where did this Euthanasia take place, do you know?
A. We who could move about freely in the hospital could see that this Euthanasia could only have been carried out in Room 11.
Q. Do you know whether or not the defendant Hoven carried out these Euthanasia killings?
DR. GAWLIK: I again object to this question. The witness stated that he was never in that room, that he had never seen it. Consequently, he cannot answer that question. He does not have the necessary knowledge to do so.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may answer the question Yes or No -whether he knows.
A. I said yesterday that I did not see Dr. Hoven ever kill anyone.
Q. Did you ever hear that he killed anyone in this Block 11?
A. The prisoners spoke among themselves about the fact that prisoners were killed.
Q. Did you ever hear that such killings were carried out by Dr. Hoven?
A. Yes. It was said that in the hospital the people were killed but you were asking about Dr. Hoven. Dr. Hoven was mentioned as the person responsible for and carrying out these killings but, as I said, I never saw it.
Q. Now, did you ever hear of people that reported to the hospital barracks after a hard days work for medical treatment and after reporting to the hospital barracks they were sent to Room 11 and eventually exterminated? Did you ever hear of such cases as that?
A. I did not hear that.
Q. Now, you are familiar with Block 46 in the Buchenwald Camp, are you not?
A. Yes, I do. I testified about that yesterday.
Q. Did you understand that Dr. Ding was the Chief of Block 46?
A. Yes. I knew that.
Q. Who did you understand to be the superior of Dr. Ding?
A. I was clear in my mind that Dr. Mrugowsky was Dr. Ding's superior or that Dr. Ding belonged to Dr. Mrugowsky's Hygiene Institute but we heard about the question of infection that was being carried out in Block 46.
Q. Was Dr. Hoven considered to be Dr. Ding's Deputy?
A. Please. I said yesterday that I knew nothing about this and had not heard anything of it.
Q. Did you know anything about the selection of inmates to be used for the experiments in Block 46?
A. Mr. Prosecution, when a person is in a camp as long as I was, then one hears a good deal and when you ask what I heard, I can tell you this. In Block 46 --
Q. Just a moment, witness. For your information you may here testify as to what you have heard within the camp and as to what you know about as your actual experience and as to your own knowledge. So, you may continue.
A. I was never there and of my own experience I know nothing. But, it was perfectly clear in the camp that experiments were being performed in Block 46 and that prisoners were chosen for these experiments. I believe that the political department took care of that selection. People in the camp were afraid of Block 46.
Mostly they were prisoners who belonged to the non-friendly group of personalities and we who had some sort of other activities were not afraid that we were going to end up in Block 46, but many did have that fear.
Q. Well, were those experimental subjects used in Block 46 men who had stepped out of line and volunteered to be subjected to these experiments?
A. No, I doubt that.
Q. Witness, in the operating room in which you worked did they keep a large quantity of poisonous substance which could be used for intravenous injections?
A. Mr. Prosecution, I was asked about evipan by the American Military authorities very specifically. Evipan is an intravenous narcotic anesthesia. We have to be very careful in that matter. You have to use a certain amount and then you do a chief anesthetic with evipan. Before I was appointed and when the nurses did the anesthetizing they used Evipan and there were about 400 doses of Evipan there in the surgical department. It is not present medical theory that evipan should be used in such cases as hernia, appendectomy -- but I used it as a local anesthesia. I was given it and worked only with local anesthesia. I was asked what had happened to Evipan during operations by the American authorities, for this amount of Evipan got smaller and smaller until after about six months there was none left. Very small amounts might be used but they were very small, indeed, not more than 5 pieces. One must assume that the large amount of this Evipan was taken outside the operating room.
Q. Well, now Dr. Hoven was the direct superior of the operating room wasn't he?
A. Yes, he was chief of the whole hospital and also of the operating room.
Q. Well, did you ever hear of any lethal injections with Evipan?
A. It was said in the camp whenever I mentioned the word evipan it was said that evipan was being used in this way, but I myself did not see it.
Q. How about phenol?
A. I also testified on this subject. This was later. Dr. Hoven had already left the camp. The general discipline relaxed and a prisoner employed by one of the sections came to me and told me "Dr. Horn, take a look at this heart. The heart is very red and smells of phenol." In the autopsy room there I used various drugs and so saw no particular point to the remark by this man and the remark was dropped. Once we had a clinical section -- a section that all physicians wanted for our own medical purposes. And again this prisoner brought me a corpse and again showed me a heart where the mucous membrane of the heart was reddened. In view of the fact that in the autopsy room many drugs have a smell I nevertheless did conclude that this was phenol. I tested another corpse, I told the man to open up the stomach of this corpse, the heart of which had smelled of phenol and I ascertained that the stomach contained no signs of phenol. In other words, the phenol must have been brought into the organism some way other than through the mouth. I can conclude from the way the mucous membrane looked, I can conclude that certainly this was a severe case of endocarditis.
Q. Whenever you visited the autopsy room in these cases of death by what you supposed was phenol, could you have ascertained the nationality of the person and whether or not the person was an incurable?
A. No, I cannot answer that question. We saw a corpse which had numbers on the thigh as its only identification. There was nothing attached to them, no name, no indication of nationality. And when I saw that I did not inquire whether the person had another disease. Mr. Prosecution, you must remember that although we occupied a certain position in this camp we were still in the hands of the SS and Gestapo and all questions of that sort could have had a very bad consequence there for us. Surely you will understood it, a doctor in my position, a man with a certain responsibility, too, and you will understand why I was in such matters as this is, superficial as I seem to have been. A man who did become too serious did die of phenol injection. He was injected into a vein, some way or other. I can only tell you this man was killed with phenol.
Q Now, Dr. Hoven testifies in his affidavit NO-471 that he administered phenol injections to inmates. Did you know that?
A I never talked with Dr. Hoven about this; and I refer to what I have already testified, that a part of the prisoners, who were afraid accused Hoven of carrying out these killings.
Q What do you know about the deportation of Jews from Buchenwald to unknown destinations?
A That is true. At the beginning of 1942 suddenly the Jews were carried out of the hospital; and on this occasion it happened, as I said yesterday, that was the Jew Kohn, the man, whose wife, and child, that I saved this man. These sick Jews were transferred elsewhere.
Q Now, who selected these six Jews for transfer, or were they just picked at random?
A Not six, but sick. Mr. Prosecutor, the way these Jews were chosen I am sure that was an order on the part of the political Gestapo department of the camp; and my experience is that this directive must have come from a political authority in the camp.
Q Well, at the time that these Jews were transferred, they were patients in the hospital, were they not?
A Yes, the Jews in the hospital were sick most assuredly, those who were taken away.
Q Well, suppose that a Jew was not too sick; in other words, his condition was one which would be cleared up in a few days. Would he have been transferred away from Buchenwald on this particular action?
A If I understand you correctly, you are asking whether Jews who could have been cured were taken away also.
Q Yes.
AAs I heard, the Jews were taken from the details in other words, Jews who weren't sick at all in the camp. I don't believe it was just the sick Jews in the hospitals who were taken away but Jews who were working in the commandos of the camp.
Q Now, did you ever hear the name Bernburg in that connection?
A No.
Q Did you ever hear the code letters "14-F-13" in that connection?
A No.
Q Well, now, after these Jews had left for this unknown destination, within a few days were their index cards and names removed from the files?
A We had our own file of the prisoners in the whole camp. Of course, when we heard that so and so many Jews had been taken from the camp, then, of course, we were very curious to know whether the Jews had been transferred to another commando or whether they had been done away with. After a certain length of time the order came to take the cards from the card indes, so we assumed that they had been killed; but I am only telling you now what I heard. It was said that the personal effects of the Jews were not used by the Jews themselves; in other words, that they simply were dead so that they couldn't use their personal effects.
Q Now, were you ever cognizant of the fact that the camp commandant would issue orders that certain people were to be exterminated?
A Once, it just occurs to me. I was in the corridor to the operation room where I worked. Dr. Hoven used tho word "euthanasia"; and in this connections he said that the commandant had approved it that seriously ill patients should have euthanasia applied to them. I never spoke to Dr. Hoven about this further because at that moment I saw the situation which would arise if I as the only surgeon in the camp should fall ill; and so it occurred to me from this title "euthanasia" that I also might be aided via euthanasia; in other words, put out of my suffering, which, of course, I repudiated, as I repudiated any euthanasia because I was and must be in a position to relieve the patients' suffering.
After the bombing of Germany, we had great experience in these whole matters. Persons lay for ten or fifteen days unconscious. They were unable to control their bladders; they were incontinent; they couldn't eat. Finally they regained consciousness. Since I have already mentioned camp justice so much, Mr. Prosecutor, I saw and took prisoners to these people and said to them: "You have been lying here for two weeks unconscious, couldn't eat, couldn't drink." We took the men to these persons, I say, but we were not prepared for such a catastrophe as this. The man would say, "I was unconsious; I felt nothing, felt no pain; and I am surprised that you are bringing these matters up with me."
There is no point, it seems to me, at which it is justifiable for anyone to apply euthanasia and particularly not a doctor in the 20th century. As long as the heart muscles are working, the person is alive; and no one has a right to put him out of what you think is his misery.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions, your Honor.
EXAMINATION BY THE TRIBUNAL ( JUDGE SEBRING ):
Q Witness, who did you understand applied euthanasia at Buchenwald?
A I shall answer you as follows. I said that there was a group of prisoners who held Dr. Hoven responsible for killing inmates. I do not want to use the "euthanasia." Then Dr. Schidlausky came to the camp--he is the SS man whom I described yesterday who changed so drastically; he in Ravensbruck was a ruthless sort of person, and now he had become such an anxious and frightened person that he wouldn't even sign the death certificates. Now we hoped after he came that would not then hear that the persons continued to disappear from the camp. At this time, the end of 1944, it was not necessary to kill the patients in the camp. You simply sent them on a work detail. Such as Dora commando or the S-3 commando, where the eldest transports lasted a maximum of six weeks.
I remember two hundred French industrialists, including the well-known Michelaine, who died after six weeks of such a work commando. In other works, it was not necessary to kill the prisoners. There were other ways of getting rid of them.
The mortality at that time was enormous. We were just under five thousand fatalities a month. Nevertheless, we still heard occasionally that one or another prisoner had disappeared. To be specific, in this period we received the news that from the construction commando the Polish consul in Budapest--his first name is Jan; but I forget his family name--was to come once to the camp hospital and never returned to his work commando. I visited the man, spoke with him. He was entirely normal. After two or three days I went to that same section again; but he was not there any longer. He had been transferred to another; and then all of a sudden he disappeared. I went to the nurse, because at that time it was possible to be a little curious, and I asked what had happened to this follow. The nurse laughed and said, "You won't see him again."
I am convinced that at this time the Polish consul from Budapest disappeared in this way. Dr. Schidlausky certainly didn't do this; and Dr. Hoven wasn't in the camp; and so we must try to find the persons who did this elsewhere. There were other SS and medical men there in the camp; and I am sure that Dr. Schidlausky did not do this.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q. Now, Doctor, just before the morning recess, when the court directed questions to you concerning the activities of Dr. Hoven and Dr. Schidlausky, you gave the court your version of what you knew about their activities. Now, were there any other doctors at Buchenwald, during the time you stayed there, about whose activities you know? Either by direct knowledge, by observation or by the general prevailing reputation concerning their activities in that camp?
A. In the concentration camp of Buchenwald, in addition to the head SS physician, Dr. Hoven or Dr. Schidlausky, there were two or three subordinate SS physicians. Mostly, they were very young doctors who had not yet practiced, which meant that they only entered their service as a physician in the camp, and going through all the physicians I remember I cannot pick out any individual persons. Most of the physicians were unknown when they got there and left likewise. I cannot remember that the inmates raised any particular complaints against SS physicians. There were general complaints but no special ones.
Q. When did you first become an inmate in any of the concentration camps?
A. That was in the camp of Snoimo near Vienna. This is really the territory of Czechoslovakia that belonged in the Sudetenland.
Q. When?
A. In September, 1939.
Q. How long did you stay there as an inmate?
A. I stayed there for fourteen days.
Q. Then what camp did you go to?
A. Then I mostly went to Gestapo prisons or court prisons, where the medical service was carried out by SS physicians.
Q. What was the period of time that you stayed in that activity in those prisons?
A. At that time already there prevailed in Germany and in the occupied territories an enormous lack of physicians.
I went to the prison of Spielberg at Bruenn.
Q. When?
A. That was between December and January, 1939.
Q. How long did you stay there?
A. Until the 15th of February.
Q. Then where did you go?
A. Then I went to the Gestapo Prison Kaunitz-Kolno. That is in Bruenn
Q. How long did you stay there?
A. Until I was transferred to the camp of Buchenwald. That is, the beginning of December, 1941.
Q. How long were you at Buchenwald?
A. I stayed in Buchenwald from the 9th of December, 1941, until the liberation, which was the 11th of April, 1945. I stayed another few weeks up to the 20th of May, 1945.
Q. Then you were there for a period of approximately more than three years. Is that correct? At Buchenwald?
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. Can you estimate how many prisoners were at Buchenwald?
A. Generally?
Q. When you came there. Yes, generally?
A. I already said today.....
Q. (Interrupting) I know you did. Say it again.
A. In December, 1941, I estimated the amount to be approximately six thousand inmates.
Q. Thank you. Now, state for the information of the Tribunal whether that number increased from time to time while you were there and about what the approximate monthly increase was, if you know. Or quarterly increase? Or semi-annual increase? Or yearly increase?
A. In the year of 1942 there was a normal increase, which according to my estimate - and I am now speaking of new additions into the camp, and I would like to say that the total increased by two thousand people. You see, I can't say exactly how many people died in the camp or how many were admitted, but we knew, at that time, that there were approximately a steady eight thousand there, from the kitchen.
Q. You think then that some time during the year 1942, without taking into account the transfers or the deaths, that there were approximately eight thousand inmates at Buchenwald?
A. Yes, approximately.
Q. How many would you estimate were there in 1943 under the same conditions?
A. The year 1943 was a turning point in concentration camps. At that time the camps were transferred to labor camps. That expressed itself in a manner that the Gestapo merely captured the people as one catches a horse and transferred them into the camp.
Q. And how many during the year 1943 do you think were there?
A. Under Doctor Hoven I think there were approximately fifteen thousand, but the number increased rapidly. Mass transports came to the camp from Auschwitz, etc., transport after transport came and went. Sometimes 5,000 people a day left the camp. There was no supervision to be exercised, people arrived and people went. The camp of Buchenwald - the center camp, housed at the most - and I am including the little camp these pig sties could house approximately forty thousand. The outer camp, I think, amounted to a much larger number of persons. When the American Authorities liberated the camp and wanted to find out the number of inmates they found out that there were eighty-one thousand dead and they wanted to know how many people went through the camp and the figure was mentioned or rather it was said that there were about a number of one hundred forty thousand men, including the branches of the camp.
Q. What was the - what did you observe as to the general physical condition of the prisoners at Buchenwald when you first came there in the latter part of 1941 and during the year 1942?
A. I remember that impression very well. I remember it in the year of 1941. I entered the camp and I saw a number of elderly gentlemen, and the Czechs, who were in a position to receive packages of two kilos. When I entered there the roll call was taking place and when I saw my Court.
No. 1 comrades the first impression wasn't bad at all.
I saw blocks of the old political inmates, mostly artisans, who worked in the camp. My impression of them wasn't bad at all. Very soon I was relieved from attending roll call by Dr. Hoven. Then I started to see blocks where the inmates looked very badly. That especially applied to the Polish blocks. The blocks of Jehova's Witnesses were in much better condition. They were mostly workers with the SS and therefore looked better. The general impression that I had wasn't the worst at all and I mention that because I must openly admit that I was surprised. Especially the old political inmates explained to me that the pace of the work and the type of the work when erecting the camp of Buchenwald, which originated in the year of 1937 or 1938, was so severe that anyone who could not stand that work physically had died.
Q. What was the general physical condition of the prisoners you saw there during the years 1943 and 1944 and until your liberation in April 1945, as compared to the general physical condition of the prisoners whom you observed when you first came to Buchenwald?
When the camps were changed into labor camps and the inmates were sent to work for Germany's war industry, it was permitted for the inmates to receive packages. These were packages up to the weight of 5 kilograms but it was quite possible to negotiate with the SS and achieve that even heavier packages arrived. It may have cost a little more money. For that reason all the inmates who received packages from home looked much better. Naturally, the situation of the Poles was terrible, the situation of the Russians, and also of the Germans who received no packages. That especially applied to Germans who were not active in the administration. They, of course, didn't look as well. Only in the years 1944 and 1945, when packages arrived from France, and in this connection I have to say that the French Red Cross did some enormous work; that also applies to Switzerland. Switzerland sent packages to Germany of a value of.....or at least amounting to 2 million packages-I am not sure whether it was 2 million francs or 2 million packages. The packages, of course, had decreased in size. Then came the year 1944 and now I am speaking of 95 percent of the inmates. They looked terrible. They were painted as it was demonstrated by Dr. Pieck. They lived in terrible conditions, 5 or 7 people were sleeping on 2 beds. We received terrible infections, infections of the intestines. We went to Block 50, asking them to find out what the cause of this epidemic was. We mostly feared typhus. The situation in the little camp was beyond anyone's imagination. I want to describe the following to you: The American Commander in Thuringia ordered that 2,000 German men and women come to Buchenwald daily to look at it. The American soldiers looked at the camp too; they were good soldiers and they understood the situation. But we noticed that whenever German men and women went through it they preferred to throw themselves down on the ground in order not to have to look.
There were heaps of dead which we could not bury because we had no facilities to do so. Later, after the dead were buried, German men and women came again. They did not want to go into the Block. They cried and screamed. They said they did not want to go inside, they did not know what was happening there, they knew of nothing. If one looks at Pieck's painting one can only realize the extent of what the situation was. One can apply some measure if one considers the reaction of the German men and women when they looked at the camp. In January, February, March and April there were 5,000 people dead in the camp of Buchenwald.
Q. Can you state what the official caloric content of the diet of the prisoners was when you came there, not taking into account any Red Cross packages that may have come in or other types of packages, when yon first came to Buchenwald? I am speaking now of the prisoners who were not hospital inmates and when we have finished this point, then I want to pass on the hospital inmates.
A. The amount of calories was often considered and counted, mainly by the inmates. That already held true at the time of Dr. Hoven. You know that everything in Germany was done by order. If one went by the order one could count on 30 calories per Kilo, that is altogether 2,000 calories. That, however, was the order. Dr. Hoven sometimes inspected the kitchen with us and there we saw that the kitchen for inmates had a number of people eating there unofficially, SS and inmates who had no business there. An inmate in the hospital did not receive sufficient calories to enable him to live longer than 4 to 6 weeks. It made a great deal of difference who received the upper layer of any food contained in a pot where more fat was contained.
In order to give you some more specific answer one must assume that the amount of calories given was very small. Considering not the center camp of Buchenwald but a branch, let us say the construction camp Dora, where secret weapons were produced, these were subterranean works, or consider the notorious S-3 where subterranean work was also carried out--the inmates emerged from there after a few weeks. Now and again a nurse came back from there and he said there was no disinfection there. We asked him how come people disappeared and the only answer was the people did not get sufficient food, the medicine was not sufficient, and people were just disappearing. All of this, of course, resulted in diarrhea. Block 50 did not make any bacteriological diagnoses and I want to confirm Professor Fleck's statement--this diarrhea was the diarrhea which was seen after the first world war, which comes as a result of hanger. In other words, my answer is that the amount of calories was not sufficient.
Q. Now that was over the entire period of time while you were there, not taking into account the packages which may have come in to certain individuals from outside? I am speaking now merely of the official diet.
A. The official ration up until 1943 was such that there were no real symptoms of hanger. There was no hunger then, there was no hanger diarrhea. There were no special symptoms of hunger edema in the year 1943 which could be noticed on the inmates but certain symptoms were created by the wearing of impossible boots and by the fact that the people had to stand up for a long time. In other words the period of 1943 was such that one could not notice any particular symptoms of hanger with the exception of symptoms in the stomach and it started only in the year 1944.
Q. State for the benefit of the Tribunal the nature of the food received by those concentration camp inmates during the year 1944. Tell us in particular what items they would receive for an average meal and the items of food they would receive throughout the day.
A. In the morning we received a liquid which was called by some of the inmates substitute coffee and by another part of the inmates, soup. There was no vote taken whether it was soup or coffee. From the food depot we found out that this product allegedly was produced from flour, which in turn was gained from wood. One must say that even though it may not have had any caloric value that after a certain period of time one drank it without any symptoms occurring as a result. Everything was eaten and everything drunk but there was no calory value. In addition to that product we had a piece of bread from a loaf of bread which had 1500 grams. The daily ration was, I think, and I am not speaking about the industrial supplements but those who were not working in industry, about 8 portions of a loaf of broad weighing 1500 grams. At noon the same thing was true. There was a soup made of some roots. I came from an agricultural country but I cannot say what kind of root that was. The Frenchmen who came from the colonies called it ritabagat. This was similar to a beet root but did not have as much nourishment value as the normal beet root. Then we sometimes received pieces of potatos--so called industrial potatos of a very bad type--a type which contained much poison, starting from February, so that in many cases diarrhea was prevalent amont the inmate s after dring that potato soup.
Now and again pieces of meat were floating in that soup but very thin threads of meat.
In the evening we got a little marmalade, very small quantities of marma lade and once a week we received cheese. That was normal, there was some exceptions in the case of holidays when inmates received so-called pea soup and on the occasion of big holidays they received one piece of salami sausage.
The inmates working in the industries in the so-called A.W. works, which was the war industry in the camp, or those working at the Gustloff works, nurses or other inmates, who worked in an administrative capacity, received a supplimental ration, a third or a fourth of a loaf of bread.
Now and again we were in a position to buy something from the inmates' canteen once a month. This was small leaves of bread which smelled like ammonia, but after eating it one had no special symptoms.
These were the customary rations. Certainly in the year of 1944, after an air attack, the camp administration sent packages to the inmates or allowed packages to get through to the inmates, but with no exception all these packages were stolen. The packages entered the camp and all inmates had to sign for them, that is also true in my case too. They had to sign that they received the packages, but the packages went to the SS barracks and they were sorted out there by the inmates. All the jam was put together, everything was sorted out according to its type and it was safe guarded there. Where it went from there, we don't know. Here is an indication as to the amount of calories we get, at that time we lost five, six or even seven kilos of weight. We had to do all the work, we had to do all of the administrative work, the locksmiths had to do their work, but they did not have sufficient nourishment to carry it out. Certainly after these four to six weeks, we again received packages and this I can quote as an example; namely the caloric value of these official packages was completely insufficient.
Q. During the year of 1944, what was your observation of the general living conditions of the inmates at Buchanwald; I do not mean now those who may have had favored conditions, but the general prisoner who had no particular professional or specialized task to perform?
A. What I have now described merely concerned the year of 1944 and the year of 1945. I think we had 20,000 Russians, members of a nation who could eat everything and who had more power of resistance than the middle or western Europeans.
There began, after what I have already described, certain avitaminosis; namely swelling of the legs, which was increased by wooden shoes. We could see there that people lost an enormous amount of weight, however, one could not see the first symptoms, namely, diarrhea. That only happened in the year 1944. Terrible housing conditions came about in addition to the difficulties of nourishment toward tho end of the winter of 1944 to 1945 and a large number of inmates were only housed in tents, tents which were merely improvised in blocks. Five people were sleeping on two beds. The medical supplies there were not sufficient for that amount of people, nor were hygienic facilities sufficient.
We proceeded to take measures against lice in our camp and to save ourselves from a mass typhus infection. For that purpose namely in order to control the lice, we needed a few hundred **r I think even a thousand inmates, who did nothing but get ahold of the inmates during meals and inspect them afterwards to see if they had any lice or not. This measure was taken only by the inmates, the SS and Dr. Schidlausky did not object to our using these inmates for this lice control work, but he did not help us either.