I told them about the size of the ward and ay many worries in connection with the work here since it was impossible to send seriously ill patients to a hospital, so that in the two years there I was at first able to treat the patients there and later only to nurse them; the patients in the final stages of one of the worst diseases against which medicine is still powerless today - I mentioned the common form of syphilis and cancer in women.
These diseases I considered so terrible because I had no opportunity to give any real assistance to the patients there and because the patients were so completely helpless in their suffering. This will always remain one of my worst memories. These cases were much more frequent there than in any other hospital and I was alone against all this fuffering without being able to turn to a chief physician with confidence and I could not go to anyone for advice.
For the final stages of syphilis there was no medical care, the patients who were generally suffering from a complication with their nerves saw here an atonement for their former lives. They asked me repeatedly to help them and to release them from their suffering. The women suffering, from abdominal cancer in the final stages were in a coma suffering. I asked frequently whether they could not be sent to a larger hospital for the only possible therapy, radium treatment, but I was told that this was impossible. Therefore, I had to leave them with the prisoner nurses together with the rest of the patients.
A cancer led to malodorous secretions, which made the suffering of the patients even worse. I was much impressed with the pain and this was increased by an abhorance of the disease itself. Many of the patients in their physical and mental distress asked me and pleaded with me to give them an injection to release them from their suffering.
At the beginning of my work at Ravensbrueck, in 1941 and the beginning of 1942, when I as a young doctor saw clearly for the first time now difficult the medical profession is and which places a person before such difficult decisions. I felt so alone because I had no old experienced medical person here to ask for advise and I had had at the clinic in Dusselforf. I have a bad memory of figures, so I do not remember the number of patients who went through my ward, but I do remember that there were many of them there, for sure more then 100, but there were only a few of them who were suffering unimaginable things and who pleaded with me for Euthanasia.
As I have already said, this was generally patients in the final stages of syphilis or an extended cancer. The patients lay there without any possibility of aid and waited for their painful death. They were a picture of heart breaking misery. I can still hear their pleas for help. In my distress, I remembered what was done in a big clinic in such cases, I remembered that in seen cases, the wish of the hopeless sick person was complied with. I decided on my own responsibility, as a doctor, to act in the some way and then I asked my medical superior, the post physician and when I had his approval, I went back to the sick room, I stopped all the drugs and then increased the drugs alleviating pain. In a few cases, perhaps four or five, I sat down by the beds of patients who had asked for my help and in the presence of the prisoner nurse I I gave them an intravenous injection so that they would go go to sleep. I used morphium and a mixture I received from the post physician. In these four or five cases the patients were suffering from late stages of syphilis or the last stages of abdominal cancer. Those women had described their suffering and their pain to me exactly and they were Germans, who had expressly asked me to do this for them. In this hopeless situation, in view of the hopeless suffering, I did that and I had to act as I did.
A Here in this situation which is so difficult for me under oath, I can repeat about these few patients in 1941 and 1942 that this was merely a case of euthanasia which was necessary from a medical point of view; and the patients had asked me for it. They had been in my ward for a long time. They had asked me repeatedly to relieve them from their suffering. They were women to whom I could talk well in German; and I am certain that they were German citizens, I administered euthanasia after consulting my medical superior; the post physician and according to my own medical judgment; and I did so in the presence of the prisoner nurse at the time I thought it necessary to act in this way.
When in the course of time I became more and more opposed to the camp personnel at the end of 1942 and 1943; I no longer had performed euthanasia. Since the number of patients had increased because the number of inmates cf the camp had increased; I was not able to maintain the personal relationship with the individual patients which I consider a prerequisite for any action of this kind. At the same time my distrust of the camp set-up grew. I was not able to leave the camp since I had to serve here. I tried to treat the skin and venereal diseases and, in addition, to help in the therapy cf the internal clinic.
So it came about that I gave aid in only a few cases; but later when I did not know the patients well personally and no longer had confidence in the camp, I no longer did so.
Q My attention has been drawn to a wrong translation. If I understand you correctly; you wish to say at the beginning that prostitutes and other anti-social elements suffered from syphilis?
A Yes.
Q But not the political prisoners as such?
A No. They were merely endangered by the danger of contagion; and it was my duty to prevent contagion.
Q Witness; concerning this Count 1 of the indictment with which you are charged, I must ask you now which of the other defendants did you know at the beginning of sulfonamide experiments in the summer of 1942?
A I knew none of them.
Q You did not know Prof. Gebhardt or Dr. Fischer? You met Prof. Fischer and Prof. Gebhardt when they came to Ravensbruck for these experiments?
A Yes. I merely knew Prof. Gebhart by reputation. I met him personally only when he came to inspect the rooms.
Q Now, my final question. In 1943 you became assistant doctor to Prof. Gebhardt in Hohenlychen. How old that come about and what were your tasks in the Hohenlychen institution?
A The difficulties which I had in the concentration camp I have already described; and I was trying to change my place of work. Then I also said I asked Prof. Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer to help me; and I confined in Dr. Fischer and asked him to talk to Prof. Gebhardt about it. When he visited the camp, Prof. Gebhardt talked to me and considered that this was not the right place for me as a woman. And so it came about that with the aid of Prof. Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer I left Ravensbruck and went to Hohenlychen.
I worked there as an assistant doctor in the women's and children's ward. I was very glad to take over the children's ward because in Dusseldorf at the dermatology clinic I had worked in the children's ward. In addition to my activity in the clinic, I was also to care for the children of families of the personnel of Hohenlychen. Also, the female employees often asked me for advice. Then I helped in refugee transports and treated the sick children. Then I remember that I carried out a scabies drive in Hohenlychen and that Prof. Gebhardt helped me. I was able to take about two hundred children suffering from scabies into the clinic for treatment. In short, I helped everywhere where help was needed and where I was able to give it.
Couht No. 1
DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, I have no further questions at this point.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until 9:30 o'clock next Tuesday morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 8 April 1947 at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal I in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 8 April 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I.
Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court room.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain that the defendants are all present in court?
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all the defendants are present in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court.
DR. HERTA OBERHAUSER - Resumed
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the defense counsel have any examination of this witness? The witness is reminded that she is still under oath. Counsel may proceed.
DR. WEISGRUBER: (Counsel for the Defendant Sievers): Mr. President, I ask for approval for the Defendant Sievers to be absent from the session this afternoon. Like the other defense counsel, I was not able to talk to my client during the last three days, and to conclude the preparations for the case of my client, I need some time this afternoon.
THE PRESIDENT: On the request of counsel for the Defendant Sievers, Defendant Sievers will be excused from attendance at the Tribunal this afternoon for the purpose of consulting with his counsel.
Since there are no questions to be propounded of this witness by defense counsel, the prosecution may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q Miss Oberheuser, will you kindly tell the Tribunal how Professor Gebhardt happened to ask you to assist in the sulfamilomide experiments?
A Professor Gebhardt did not ask me. During the direct examination I have already said that a few days before the beginning of the experiments the post physician told me to clear a few rooms in my ward. He did not tell me the reason at the time. Then shortly before the beginning of the experiment Professor Gebhardt, Dr. Fischer, the post physician, and perhaps a few other gentlemen, came and looked at the room. Professor Gebhardt did not give me any assignment. It was just because the rooms were in my ward.
Q How was it - after the arrival of Professor Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer it was necessary that inmates be selected for use in the experiments. How was this selection program of inmates to be used outlined?
A I cannot give you any information about that. The women were sent to me by the camp administration, and then I examined them, as was done before every operation in which an anesthetic was used.
Q Did you ever actually select the inmates or victims yourself?
A No.
Q Do you know Miss Winkowska, one of the Polish girls?
A No.
Q That is spelled W-I-N-K-O-W-S-K-A. Do you know her?
A No, I can't remember her.
Q You may recall that Winkowska states in her affidavit, "Dr. Oberhauser would select the victims from among the prisoners"?
A Yes, I remember that but in the document book the testimony of Winkowska says that they were put on lists and the office sent them to me. I myself never selected anyone.
Q After they were sent to you was it necessary for you to examine those patients, or victims, to determine whether or not they were sufficiently healthy to undergo the sulfamilamide experiments?
A No, that is not true in that sense. They were not to be examined to determine whether they were capable or undergoing the sulfonamide experiments, but merely as in the case of any other operations when an anesthetic is necessary. For cases with weak hearts and lungs an anesthetic cannot be used. I did not know what the consequences of the sulfonamide experiments might be.
Q What examination did you give them? Did you give them the examination such as stated already in the evidence, merely a quick look, pass them on, and say, "They are suitable for this experiment"?
A I should like to point out that I did not examine them from the point of view of whether they were suitable for the experiments because I had no idea about that. I merely examined them to determine whether they could be given an anesthetic or not. I looked at their skin, listened to their heart and also tested their lungs, just as is done before any other operation when an anesthetic is necessary.
Q Well, now, you did assist during the operations and give the anesthetic to the victims, did you not?
A Sometimes I administered the anesthetic, but generally, as I said during my direct examination, the operations were very brief and I saw to it that one patient after the other was prepared for the operation.
Q Well, now, it was your duty, was it not, to care for the patient after the operation, that is, the post-operative care?
A No one told me to do this. The rooms were in my ward and then the patients were in my ward too.
Q You recall that you stated in your affidavit, Miss Oberheuser, Paragraph 4, that the operations were performed by Dr. Fritz Fischer, "sometimes I helped and assisted at these operations and had the duty to attend the patients after the operation." Now, was it or was it not your duty to care for these patients after the operations?
A I considered it my duty, and I hoped that as a woman I would be able to help because I saw a chance for the patients to be pardoned, and I thought I would be able to help them as a woman.
Q. Now, did the girls inquire of you for what reason they were being prepared for an operation?
A. No, I did not ask them that. Prof. Gebhardt told me, as I have already said on direct examination, that this was an order from a very high authority; that the State had ordered it; that it was legal; that the experiments would not be dangerous; and that these were Polish women who were condemned to death. They were in the block under the strictest discipline, and they were not allowed to leave the camp to work. When they came to me, they never offered any resistance, so that I assumed that everything was legal.
Q. Now, Miss Oberheuser, did you tell these girls before they were operated on that they would be pardoned if their operation was successful?
A. No, I had nothing to do with that.
Q. Now, you know about the case of the two girls, Miss Kutschek and Miss Peruska, don't you?
A. At the moment, I can't remember exactly.
Q. Well, there was a case where you delayed the execution of these two girls because they still had another X-ray to be taken?
A. I don't believe that is correct. I did not take care of the X-rays. That was done by Dr. Stumpfogger himself. He conducted his experiments himself, and he himself took the plaster casts off. He also took the X-ray pictures himself; and I knew nothing about it.
Q. Then those girls that were executed had already undergone experiments, had they not?
A. Yes, I assume so.
Q. Now, would it not have been your duty to see to it that the sentences of these girls be commuted and that the camp administrators and Gebhardt and Fischer stick to their bargain and insist that the executions be cancelled?
A. In the first place I knew nothing about it; and then I should also like to say that my position was that of a sub-altern, assistant physician. I was a specialist. I had no disciplinary authority. I was in opposition to the SS. I could not express any wishes; and I knew nothing about it. The only thing that I could do was to help the individual patient. Beyond that I could do nothing.
Q. Well, weren't you aware of the fact that the sulfanilamide experiments must have caused considerable pain to the experimental subjects?
A. As they were carried out, I believe that the patients did not suffer greatly. They never said anything to that effect either when being treated by Prof. Gebhardt or by Dr. Fischer; and I myself never had any difficulties. I always believed that they appreciated my care; and in addition there was the chance that they would be pardoned.
Q. Now, Doctor, did those girls walk around after they were operated on smiling and saying, "I'm happy that Dr. Fischer operated on me"?
A. No, it was not like that; but I never heard anything unfavorable. I never heard that they expressed any hatred against me. When the dressings were changed, they were always glad to have me there.
Q. Now, did you never consider that the eventual mental depression might have been caused by those pains and by the inability to walk, in particular, those girls in the control group?
A. May I ask you to repeat your question? I didn't understand it.
Q. Didn't you ever consider, Dr. Oberheuser, that eventually those girls would suffer extreme mental depression because of the pains that they endured during the course of the experiments and because of their inability to walk in later life?
A. Certainly they did suffer spiritually; but they did that before because they were expecting to be executed. They were living in the block where the people lived who were condemned to death; and through this operation they had a chance to be pardoned; and besides, only a small part of them became seriously ill. The others healed very quickly; and the case was merely that of a Carbuncle.
Q. Now, before we proceed any further in this crossexamination, I wish to go back. If I recollect from your answer here this morning, you stated that it is possible, or true, that some of those girls were executed after they had endured the experiments; isn't that right?
A. I don't know. I can't say anything about that. I heard that only here in the courtroom.
Q. You must have known that these operations would have had a lasting effect on those victims and would practically cripple them?
A. No, I could not know that because I was a dermatologist; and those cases were quite foreign to me.
Q. Now, assume for the moment that one of the girls was seriously ill, and Dr. Fischer or Gebhardt were at Hohenlichen. How were you able to determine whether or not they should be called immediately to the bedside of that girl?
A. The temperature was checked regularly and the state of health of the patients, whether they expressed any pain or whether there were any minor changes.
The post physician reported; and I was under him. In that case he reported immediately to Hohenlichen; and Hohenlichen was not far away. Then either Prof. Gebhardt or Dr. Fischer came, or both of them.
Q. Now, when was the last time that you saw any of the experimental subjects after the operations, apart from those whom you saw in this courtroom?
A. May I ask you to repeat the question?
Q. When did you last see any of the girls who had been subjected to those experiments at Ravensbruck, other than the girls who were here in this courtroom?
A. I cannot remember any except for the one who was here. She yet had a skin defect; and I remember that I saw her last. The others were as good as healed. In cross-examination I have already said that in April I looked at perhaps three or four, and that nothing more was necessary except the application of ointment.
Q. Now, for how long after each experimental operation did you have the inmates under your observation?
A. Until they were healed.
Q. What was the latest time after the experimental operation at which you saw any of those inmates?
A. Now, of course I am no longer able to say that individually; but in the first groups they healed very quickly, and then the witnesses whom we saw here took a little longer. I have already said that in April I saw perhaps three; and they needed only ointment.
Q. April of what year?
A. 1943.
Q. Now, you saw these girls that appeared here in this courtroom, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Some of them were still ill, weren't they?
A. That was a final condition on which I can report nothing here because I am a dermatologist.
Q. Were there any plans made for regular follow-up's after the experimental operations?
A. I can say nothing about that. It is impossible after an infection, after an infectious suppuration, to do anything. No baths can be given, and no massage.
Q. Did you ever give the girls any drug to relieve the pain after these operations?
A. Yes, they were given drugs regularly.
A. How about the case of Miss Baj, spelled B-a-j, wherein she states in her affidavit, "Oberhauser told us herself that she could give us nothing to alleviate our pains, as it would delay the healing of our legs," do you recall telling her that?
A. No. That is about four years ago now. Everyone who had pain was given morphine. That is confirmed repeatedly by the testimony of the witnesses. Perhaps in this case we did not want to give this particular patient too much morphine to avoid plaster pressure, but otherwise they were given morphine, and I had strict orders from Professor Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer not to spare the morphine.
A. Did you ever have any orders from Dr. Gebhardt to let those girls die?
A. No.
Q. Did you have orders from Professor Gebhardt to give only minimum treatment?
A. No. In my direct examination I have already said how Professor Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer were concerned about the patients, and particularly about the last group in which there were a number who were seriously ill. The dressings were changed, subsequent operations were performed, drainage was arranged where the legs were immobilized in plaster casts, gangrene serum was given, blood transfusions heart stimulants, and everything that was necessary.
Q. In the case of where these girls died after the experiments, did you notify Dr. Fischer immediately?
A. Yes. As I have already said in my direct examination this morning, if there were only very minor changes, a rise in temperature, this was regularly reported to Hohenlychen, and I recall that it was often on Sunday when Dr. Fischer and Professor Gebhardt came over to look after the patients.
Q. How does it happen the worthy Dr. Fischer was not present when these girls died?
A. I cannot say the hours of death exactly any longer, but Professor Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer had been there before. They were so worried, and they did everything humanly possible.
Q. Yet they were not there when the patients died?
A. I was there. I was called, but I can only say that everything possible was done. For after a while the strength of the heart becomes gradually reduced. This happens as it does in the clinic too: If someone dies in the clinic the ward physician is present. The previous treatment and everything that has to be done is ordered by the Chief Physician.
Q. Now, how many people had you experience as a doctor prior to the death of these five or six girls in the experiments?
A. I do not remember that there were five or six experimental subjects. I can remember only three; and I can no longer tell you how many people I have seen die, but I had worked for four years in a clinic before that.
Q. Prior to these deaths as a result of sulphanilamide experiments how many people had you killed with gasoline injections in the Ravensbruck camp?
A. I didn't kill anybody.
Q. How many people did you accord these so-called mercy deaths to prior to the death of those girls who had undergone the experiment?
A. What I did was not a mercy death. It was medical aid for suffering patients in their agony.
Q. What did you inject into the patients to relieve them from their suffering?
A. I gave them morphine, and then the post physician gave me a mixture, I don't know what it contained exactly.
Q. The mixture contained gasoline, didn't it?
A. I cannot say. During an interrogation the interrogator said to me "that was of course gasoline, that was customary," and so I was pushed into that. I don't know myself exactly what it was. I was given it by the post physician.
Q. Well, now, do you mean to tell me that you could not determine whether or not you were injecting gasoline into a person; couldn't you smell it?
A. I gave the syringe to the post physician and he put the liquid into it. I don't know.
Q. Now, in your affidavit you state as follows: "It was no rarity at Ravensbruck, that persons who were already approaching death were killed by injections. I myself have given five or six such injections." Now, from the overwhelming statements of witnesses and investigations, it is obvious that you gave many more than that; are you ready now here, inasmuch as you are under oath, to admit that you administered lethal injections to more than five or six persons in the Ravensburck Concentration Camp?
A. No.
Q. You limit it to five or six, do you, Doctor?
A. I don't know the number exactly. It might have been only four or five.
Q. Now in the course of your direct examination you gave the impression you were sympathetic and helpful to all the patients in the Ravensbruck Concentration Camp: I want to call your attention to the affidavit of Helen Piosacka, which is Document No. 864, which will be found in Document Book No. 10, also found on page 926 of the English transcript, wherein the affiant states as follows:
"In the beginning of 1942 there was an old German woman of about 80 years wearing the green triangle on her arm in the passage of the revier; she asked Dr. Oberhauser for some pills. She was ill and could scarcely move. Oberhauser asked her why she was in the camp. As she did not reply Oberhauser kicked her. The woman fell to the ground crying. Oberhauser laughed and told her to get up, and go away, and gave her no medicine. I was in the passage and witnessed this." Wasn't that rather a typical example of how you treated the patients, Doctor?
A. I never did any such thing. I had four years of training in the clinic before, and I had models and good examples from my chief physician, and I always followed their example, and after my period at Ravensbruck I went to another clinic. I tried for three quarters of a year to change my position. I do not believe that during this time I could change either from the human or from the medical point of view. I always repudiated such actions, and I would not have been able to act in such a way; and I have also said that the SS atmosphere was not pleasant to me, and after a year and a half I was not able to stand it any longer; and perhaps it was only a very brief time when I thought everything was in order there, but then I said to myself I had to help the patients and I managed to held out for a year and a half, and then I tried again to take the first chance that offered itself, because I was obligated to serve there and was not able to leave. I asked Professor Gebhardt to help me.
Q. Now, Doctor, I wish to call your attention to the affidavit of Baj again.
She corroborated the testimony of Miss Poisacka, wherein she stated, "I have seen Oberhauser beat and throw women out of the sick bay that came to the sick bay for treatment for their legs which had gotten badly cut while working during the day. She did not give them any treatment." Other witnesses testified to great length that you held sick call and used to sit at the examining table and kick the women when they filed by and they aroused your displeasure in any way. Now, in the interrogation by Major Mant of the British Army of the Rhine, you stated that during sick call you had to look over 300 to 400 patients, and that you sat on the examining table while looking over the patients, and in the course of that interrogation you added the following words, "In sitting there I held the point of my foot somewhat stretched forward in order to see the patients better in their entirety;" do you recall talking to Major Mant in that regard?