A. Yes, it was at my first interrogation which was carried out by Miss Karl-Mory and she forced me into this statement which is not of any significance. I did not kick anyone. I can only repeat that I had clinical training behind me and I managed to get out of these terrible surroundings and I went back to the clinic; and if I may add this, I had worked for a long time in the children's ward in Dusseldorf and when I came to Hohenlychen I again took over the children's ward. And I can only emphasize again and again that I repudiate any such action and that I would not be capable of acting in this way. I treated all my patients in the same way. As the witness, Techiedo said, I did not treat her badly.
Q. Now, Doctor, in regard to this examination of three to four hundred patients during your sick calls, isn't it true that you told Major Mant as I have stated here that you sat on the examining table and looked over the patients as they came forward? Isn't that true?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, now, didn't you also tell him that you held the point of your foot somewhat stretched forward so that you could get a presective or see the patients better in their entirety?
A. I should like to say otherwise it is customary for the doctor to sit at a desk and the patient to sit at some distance. This was, of course, not possible, and the patients came so close one after the other that one could not see the whole body. For that reason it was not necessary for me to do it with my foot, but the prisoner nurses saw to it that they came at certain intervals so that one could see the whole body because it was a specialist treatment.
Q. Well, now isn't an examining table made to have the patients sit or lie on and not the doctor?
A. First the patients who had scabies or some other minor matters were treated, and then, as I said in my direct examination, the patients where further clinical examination was necessary, I gave them appointments for the afternoon, and if I had to have a patient lie down, then, of course, I did so.
Q. Well, now, then we will go back to these experiments, Doctor. In the course of these medical experiments did you participate in the selection of the inmates? You may answer these questions "yes" or "no".
A. No.
Q. Did you examine the patients as a pre-examination or a pre-operative examination?
A. I have repeatedly said in my direct examination and again this morning that I looked at the patients who were sent to me according to the lists. I tested their skin, their hearts and their lungs as is done before any operation where an anesthetic is required.
Q. You assisted Dr. Fischer and Dr. Gebhardt during the course of the operation?
A. I helped in applying a dressing on one occasion. I have already spoken about that during my direct examination and again this morning.
Q. You were present during most of the examinations or operations?
A. Yes.
Q. You administered the anesthesia in many cases, did you not?
A. No always. I have already described what my duties were, and the method of incision was called to my attention so that in the case of pressure or congestion I would be able to loosen the dressing so that I would not touch the wound and cause any damage.
The post physician said I was merely like a handyman. I was not given any special duties. I gave the customary assistance in an operating room. I turned on the lamp and sometimes handed the doctor something.
Q. You also attended the inmates after the operation?
A. Yes. That was my duty. At least I considered it my duty.
Q. You state to your knowledge only three persons died as a result of these experiments and not five or six as stated here in the presentation of the Prosecution's case in chief, is that right?
A. I can remember only three.
Q. How many persons were shot or executed after they had been subjected to these experiments?
A. This morning I have already said that I had no idea about these shootings; that I heard about them for the first time here in the courtroom.
Q. And in your affidavit in connection with these lethal injections you admit that you gave five or six lethal injections, is that correct?
A. No.
Q. Did you hear that?
A. I said no.
Q. Well, you gave injections and after such injections the persons died, did they not?
A. I said just now, and I said during my direct examination, that I was giving medical assistance to suffering patients in agony.
Q. All right now, if I understand you correctly, these were not in the category of mercy killings, were they?
That is, euthanasia?
A. I heard about that only here in the courtroom.
Q. Well, do you consider the cases wherein you injected persons as being typical euthanasia cases as you know euthanasia from this courtroom?
A. I can only say that I was giving medical aid to suffering patients in agony.
Q. And this medical aid resulted in death, did it not? Did you hear that?
A. No.
Q. I said, "and this medical aid resulted in death, did it not?"
A. As I said, they were patients in agony.
Q. Miss Oberhauser, were you ever awarded the Iron Cross?
A. No.
Q. What did you get? What Award?
A. If I remember correctly, it was the War Merit Medal, Kriegaverdienst-Medaille.
Q. And for what reason did you receive that medal?
A. I don't know.
Q. Was it for your participation in the sulfanilamide experiments?
A. Certainly not.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further examination by Counsel for Defendant?
DR. SEIDL: Dr. Seidl for the Defendant, Dr. Herta Oberhauser.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, the Prosecutor asked you whether you had anything to do with the selection of the experimental subjects?
A. No.
Q. I shall now show you an affidavit which was submitted by the Prosecution as Exhibit 226. It is an affidavit of the witness, Sofia Sokulska. I quote:
"During my stay in Ravensbrueck two experimental operations were preformed on me. There were two other attempts made to operate on me which I thwarted. On the 1st of August, 1942, I was told to report to the large sick bay rivier with nine other prisoners by Helena Bella, secretary to Mandel."
I ask you does not the statement of this Prosecution witness show very clearly that the experimental subjects were obviously selected by the camp administration or by the political department or by some other even higher authority, for example, the Reich Security Main Office, the RSHA, which passed on the list?
A. Yes, and I have repeatedly said during my direct examination and this morning, too.
Q. The witness, Sofia Baj, said somethings very similar, Exhibit 227 of the Prosecution. She said the following, and I quote:
"On the day of my operation a list of ten names including mine was read during the morning roll call. We went to the office and asked supervisor Langenfeld what was wanted of us. She said she did not know, but shortly after we were taken to the sick bay.
I ask you did you yourself have anything to do with the roll call of prisoners?
A. No, nothing.
Q. Would you agree with me if I say that this statement again shows very clearly that the selection of experimental subjects was done by the camp administration or some other high authority?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any files on the prisoners in your hospital?
A. No.
Q. Then it would not have been possible for you from the technical point of view to select experimental subjects since you did not know for what reason the prisoners were in the camp? Is that true?
A. Yes.
Q. Was the preliminary examination which you preformed on the prisoners in any way different from the preliminary examination given before any operation?
A. No.
Q. You had testified that you learned of the experiments only when Prof. Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer had already begun them?
A. Yes.
Q. You have also testified that according to Prof. Gebhardt the experiments were not dangerous; now, I ask you: On the basis of the statements made by Prof. Gebhardt, did you have to assume that in connection with these experiments the experimental subjects would suffer any serious lasting consequences?
A. I could not judge that. I could only assume if Prof. Gebhardt said to me that the experiments were not dangerous, I believed him, because I was a dermatologist.
Q. Did you yourself have the impression that Prof. Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer did everything in their power -
A. Yes, otherwise I would probably not have helped them, and I would not have had confidence in Prof. Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer, and would have helped me to change my job. It was the same clinical course, the same clinical treatment which I knew from the university clinic where I worked for four years.
Q. That is especially true of the so-called control persons?
A. Yes.
Q. They also were treated, and, if necessary, by surgical means?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, something else, witness. Here in the courtroom you heard the prosecution expert witness Prof. Leibbrandt?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember his testimony?
A. Yes.
Q. Prof. Leibbrandt in particular made statements about what circumstances, and what prerequisites, make it permissible for a doctor to accord a euthanasia to a patient who is about to die. Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, I ask you: These patients to whom you accorded aid, were they people for whom one could say, according to Prof. Leibbrandt, that even he would consider euthanasia permissible?
A. Yes.
Q. As far as you can recall, they were patients who were incurable, who were suffering from cancer, and who could not be given any help?
A. Yes, I have described it in detail in my direct examination; and, as I said, this was formulated in such a horrible form in the affidavit.
Q. Is it in particular true that these patients asked you to help them?
A. Yes. Under other circumstances I could never have done any such thing.
Q. The prosecutor has read the testimony of the witnesses Piesezka and Baj to you. They were not examined before this court but they signed affidavits.
In one of these affidavits, in that of Sofia Baj, it is said that you mistreated an eighty-year-old woman. Now, I ask you: Were there women of any such age as eighty in this camp of Ravensbruck?
A. Not that I know of. Generally, we had younger people, and I do not believe we had any eighty-year-old woman. I don't believe we had any seventy-year-olds in the camp. They were mostly younger people.
Q. Between statements of Piesezka and Baj on the one hand, and those of the witness Tschiedo who was examined before this Tribunal, there is an obvious discrepancy. You are of the opinion that the witness Tschiedo is nearer the truth than the other two witnesses, is that true?
A. I should like to say that I treated all patients in the same way, that I gave all patients the same treatment. Where aid was needed, I gave it. I acted as I did in the clinic, and I do not believe that in this short time that I was in Ravensbruck, when I came from a clinic and went back to a clinic again, that I could have changed from my point of view, as a human being or a doctor.
Q. And you also remember the contents of the affidavit of the witness Wytla, which we submitted here before your examination. Does this witness give an accurate picture of your work in the sick bay, and of your efforts to help the patients?
A. Yes. I did everything I could. I did whatever I could to help the patients.
Q. Finally, you were asked whether you were given any War award. You answered that you were given the War Merit Medal.
I ask you: Does this mean anything special, or is it not a fact that during the war in Germany several million people received this medal?
A. Yes: and at the moment I cannot remember when I got it. It is even possible that I had it before the sulfonamide experiments, but I cannot remember exactly.
DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you referred several times to the SS atmosphere in the camp. What did you mean by that?
WITNESS: How it was in the camp itself I cannot testify anything special because I lived quite isolated. I can speak only about the SS doctors, the post physician under whom I was, under whose orders I was, and the German nurses. I can only say that they were hostile to me. I Lived and acted according to clinical principles, while they looked at the people only when they felt like it. and besides, the tone was such that as a woman I often had to blush. It was a circle into which I did not fit, and in which I did not feel at home, and my activity was limited almost exclusively to my dermatological work.
THE PRESIDENT: The matter to which you have just testified, then, was what you intended to designate the the SS atmosphere in the camp, is that correct?
WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Concerning these patients whom you testified were suffering from incurable cancers, what was the injection that you administered intended to produce-was it to alleviate their suffering or to cause their death?
WITNESS: To relieve their suffering.
THE PRESIDENT: In what way?
WITNESS: These people were in agony.
THE PRESIDENT: Did I understand you to testify that you did not know what was the contents of the injection container which you used in treating these people?
WITNESS: There might have been two or three injections when I knew what it was, when it was morphium, and then, as I said in my direct examination, I discussed it with the post physician and then he gave me a preparation, and there was probably morphium in that too, I don't know. He gave it to me.
THE PRESIDENT: What was the result of the patient in the administration of that fluid?
WITNESS: The same as any morphium. The patients go to sleep.
THE PRESIDENT: Did the patient wake up, or did death ensue?
WITNESS: Then they died.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further examination of this witness concerning the matter being produced by the defendant's examination?
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
DR. SEIDL: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: There being no further questions being propounded to the witness, the witness may be excused from the witness stand.
(Witness excused.)
DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, the examination of the defendant Herta Oberheuser concludes the submission of evidence in this case. I should merely like to point out that in the supplementary volume to the Document Book for the defendants Gebhardt there are documents which apply to the defendants Fischer and Oberheuser.
THE PRESIDENT: That is the Document Book which has not yet been submitted, is it counsel?
DR. SEIDL: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: It is understood that this Document Book may be presented to the Tribunal when it is ready for presentation. That right was reserved by the defendant the other day. We understand, counsel, that the case against defendant Oberheuser is now closed for the present.
DR. SEIDL: The case for the Defendant Oberheuser is concluded for the time being, but I should like to add that I shall dispense with examining the witness Margarete Mytla before this Tribunal since the affidavit of this witness has been admitted by the Tribunal and the Prosecution has not objected to the affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, it is understood.
The Tribunal will now call the case against the Defendant Helmut Poppendick.
DR. BOEHM (For the Defendant Poppendick): Mr. President perhaps, it would be possible to have the recess now as I am still waiting for my secretary to get a pass to come into the court room, so perhaps it would be possible to have the recess now.
THE PRESIDENT: It is my intention simply to have your first witness sworn; are you going to proceed with the witness or by reading documents, counsel?
DR. BOEHM: I should like to call the Defendant Poppendick to the stand first.
THE PRESIDENT: It was my intention simply to call the witness to the stand and have him sworn and then recess.
DR. BOEHM: Very well, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Helmut Poppendick will take the stand.
HELMUT POPPENDICK, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q. The defendant will raise his right hand and be sworn:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I shall speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
You may be seated.
The Tribunal will now be in recess.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. SEIDL: Dr. Seidl, defense counsel for the defendant Oberheuser. Your Honor, the defendant Herta Oberheuser is ill. She suffers from influenza; and she asks the permission of the Court not to have to attend the sessions of the Court today. A report by the prison doctor will be submitted to you.
THE PRESIDENT: Upon the request of counsel for defendant Oberheuser, with the understanding that the recommendation by the prison doctor will be submitted, defendant Oberheuser may be excused from further attendance before the Tribunal today.
DR. SEIDL: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed with the examination of the witness.
HELMUT POPPENDICK (Resumed) DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. GOERG BOEHM:
Q. What is your name, Mr. Poppendick?
A. Helmut Poppendick.
Q. When and where were you born?
A. On the 6th of January 1902 at Hude in Oldenburg.
Q. On the 13th of November 1946 you submitted an affidavit NO-672, Exhibit for the prosecution 30, English Document Book 1, page 54.
A. Yes.
Q. In this affidavit you stated your personal data, the most important ones. Please repeat your career, your medical career, your medical activities, and all your other activities until the summer, 1935.
A. I studied medicine from 1921 to 1926 in Goettingen, Munich, and Berlin. In 1926 I passed my state examination in Berlin. After my year as an interne I was at the Lang Hospital for one year at Huehlrose in the Mark Brandenburg. After that I went to the University Clinic of Berlin, the first medical clinic of the Charitee, to be trained as a specialist for neurological diseases.
I was there until 1932, the last two years as private assistant to Prof. His. At the same time, from 1931 on, in the evenings and Sundays I was working as an ambulance physician in Berlin, that is, in a medical consulting service for accidents and sudden cases of illness, which is set up by the city, in the east of Berlin.
In 1932 I was a specialist for internal diseases. In 1933 I became Oberarzt, chief physician, at the Virchow Hospital, at the internal section. In the fall of 1934 I went to the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute, Herlin-Dahlem, for genetics and hereditary diseases, to be trained in hereditary and constitutional diseases. My teacher was Prof. Fritz Lenz. In the summer of 1935 I went as hereditary doctor to the SS.
Q. When did you become a member of the NSDAP?
A. At the beginning of 1932.
Q. And what were the reasons which made you enter the NSDAP?
A. The economic crisis of 1930 and 1931. In all fields increasing chaos became apparent in Germany. Unemployment was increasing; and things were becoming more radical in all fields. As a doctor at the Charitee at the private ward and also as an ambulance physician, Rettungsarzt, in the east of Berlin where the workers were concentrated, I had an opportunity to observe the increasing social tension which was developing. And the radicalism and the Communism was developing. The middle class parties were standing aloof. In my opinion no solution of the urgent social questions could be expected from them.
On the other hand, I considered it necessary that every human being who thinks beyond his own welfare, who thinks of the welfare of the people as a whole, must decide at such times on the direction to be taken in the future. Communism preached dictatorship of the proletariat, that is, one class of the population. I did not agree with this. Therefore, I chose a party with another extreme direction which put the welfare of its own people in the foreground in its program, which wanted to reestablish order, which wanted to do away with unemployment.
Those were the reasons why I joined the Party.
Q. When did you become a member of the SS?
A. In the summer of 1932.
Q. And what was your activity in the SS?
A. After a few weeks I became doctor of a Surmbann; and as such it was my duty to train the medical non-commissioned officers.
Q. In what office were you as doctor for hereditary diseases?
A. The office for Population Policy, Amt Fuer Bevoelkerungspolitik, and Erbgesundheits-Pflege of the SS, the Rasse und Siedlungs Hauptamt, which in about a year was taken into the SS, the Main Race and Settlement Office.
Q. And what was the activity in the Main Race and Settlement Office?
A. My duty there was to pass on marriage applications by SS members and their fiancees.
Q. Were there only physicians and medical men in this office?
A. No, in addition to a number of doctors there also were many people who were not medical men and not scientists.
Q. What was the position of the doctors in the Main Race and Settlement Office?
A. The position there was very tense. The doctors were considered specialists with binders who ostensibly did not have clear sight but were too much involved in their school medical knowledge.
Q. What is your opinion in the way of race hygiene?
A. My teacher in 1935 was already mentioned Prof. Fritz Lenz. Lenz had unusually clear and critical intelligence and made a great impression on me. In the field of so-called race hygiene he on principle rejected all compulsory measures. He was frequently attacked for that reason, particularly by the SS people, as I was able to observe in the Main Race and Settlement Office.
Nevertheless, he published his opinions in 1936 in his well-known book. I was definitely a follower of Prof. Lenz; and I always remained so.
DR. BOEHM: In this connection I offer Document HPO 1, an affidavit by Professor Lenz, which is Poppendick Exhibit No. 1, which is on page 1 of the Document Book for Helmet Poppendick. In the first two paragraphs of this affidavit Professor Lenz speaks about his own position in the sphere of a German hereditary science. In my opinion I think he is the only man who is allowed to lecture on this subject. I will not read this document. I will not read the first two paragraphs. In Paragraph 3 Professor Lenz speaks of his knowledge and acquaintanceship with Professor Poppendick. I quote the relevant sentences:
"I met Mr. Helmut Poppendick in 1934; he was then taking an 8 months course in the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute in Dahlem. I also saw Mr. Poppendick frequently during the following years; during the war I had only transitory meetings with him. Once he was my guest together with his wife.
"I came to know and to esteem Mr. Poppendick as a benevolent, objective, and justly thinking man.
"He was neither a fanatic nor an activist; his whole nature was more inclined toward an inactive attitude.
"I remember that Mr. Poppendick frequently spoke very indignantly about Himmler, and that he certainly was not an unconditional follower of Himmler.
"I was therefore under the impression that he has remained my disciple in his professional opinions."
That is the end of my quotation. This affidavit was signed and sworn to and certified. I would like to proceed now as to this.
Q In the framework of your activities in your Main Race and Settlement Office as a doctor, I would like to ask another question; this Sippen-amt, of that SS, did that have anything to do with the Reichs Sippen-amt, as in the course of the evidence for the defendant Blome was mentioned?
A No, this Sippen-amt was only for the SS, for the members of the SS. This Reichs Sippen-amt, as far as I know, was attached to the Ministry of the Interior, and had quite different duties. There was no connection.
Q The doctors of the SS Sippen-amt, in the year 1939, were taken to the office of the Reichs-Arzt, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q And why was that; why did that happen?
A The reasons were that there were repeated difficulties in connection with the activities of the doctors in the Sippen-amt. In 1938 and 1939 medical work was to be divided up and tripled by having non-doctors assigned to perform the medical judgement of marriage applications for the SS. These non-doctors were to be trained for this purpose, and in order to take away the authority over doctors in the Sippen-amt from non-medical men, it was decided to transfer all the doctors to the staff of the Reichs-Arzt.
Q Did you do military exercises?
A Yes, from 1936 until 1939, four weeks every year. I did this in Berlin hospitals, as a doctor, in an internal case.
Q At the beginning of the war were you recruited to the Army?
A Yes, I was drafted on the 27th of August 1939.
Q And what active service did you have?
A From the beginning of the Western campaign until 1941, I was with the medical department of the 18th Army as a doctor.