DR. BOEHM: Yes; certainly, I want to do the latter. I want to submit it as a statement which was made in the Milch trial.
THE PRESIDENT: Then it should be brought before the Tribunal under certification by some authority, and we may take judicial notice of it.
DR. BOEHM: Yes, certainly, I have already expressed, your Honor, that I shall do so.
THE PRESIDENT: I notice that counsel has himself certified that it is a true copy of the testimony before Tribunal II.
MR. HARDY: What I am attempting to determine, your Honor, is whether or not he is going to give it an exhibit number. It is not necessary to give it on exhibit number.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand counsel to say he is not offering it as an exhibit. Is that correct, counsel?
DR. BOEHM: Yes.
DR. BOEMM: In connection with the office order of Grawitz, I submit the document, HPO 5, which is an affidavit by Dr. Carl Blumenreuter, Sanitaets-Zeugmeister (Medical Quartermaster) of the SS. It appears on page 9 of the document book Poppendick, and I offer it as Poppendick Exhibit 3. I quote from the contents of this document:
"I, Dr. Carl Blumenreuter, at Groemitz in Holstein, Landhaus Storm, late SS-Gruppenfuehrer, have been advised that a false affidavit will render me liable to punishment.
"I declare under oath that my statement is true and is given in order to be submitted as evidence to Military Tribunal, Palace of Justice, Nurnberg.
"I was chief of office XV (chemical-pharmaceutical service) in the Medical Office of the WaffenSS until 31 August 1943. From then on, until the end of the war, I was medical quartermaster of the SS in the office of Dr. Grawitz, Reich physician SS. In the preceding years, I was occasionally in the office of the Reich physician on official duty.
"I am therefore able to give the following statements about Grawitz's office and the official work there, before and after 1 September 1943.
"From 1940 to 1943, the office of the Reich Physician was not very extensive. I was of the impression, that it practically consisted only of Dr. Grawitz himself, who personally settled the affairs submitted to him or to his office. He preferred oral transactions by discussions in his own office without the presence of a third person.
"Grawitz's secretary worked in his outer office.
From 1941 onwards I saw Dr. Wille as well as Grawitz's adjutant around Grawitz. Occasionally I saw Dr. Poppendick too. I knew that the latter worked as a physician, in the Geneological Office (Sippenamt) and as a chief physician in the Racial and Settlement Main Office.
"I, myself, thought that the office of the Reich Physician was superfluous during the war, and always expressed this opinion. The medical departments of the main offices worked independently, and as expedient for war requirements. From this it follows, that there was hardly any work for Grawitz. I always felt that his efforts to interfere and to show the necessity for his existence were just as useless as they were disturbing.
"In 1941 I learned that Grawitz intended to place his office on a more extensive footing. Through this he also hoped to become chief of a main office. I heard that Grawitz took Dr. Wille on to his staff in 1941 in order to make him his first collaborator, when his desires were accomplished.
"On 1 September 1943, Himmler ordered a separation of the staff of the Reich Physician SS and Police. It did not, however, meet the hopes Grawitz had entertained. Nevertheless Grawitz had succeeded in taking over the management of two useful and extensive spheres of work, the pharmaceutic service and the hygienic service, much as I myself had struggled against the incorporation into the office of the Reich Physician. Through this, the office of the Reich Physician received a certain right of existence. This hardly entailed more work for Grawitz, however. On account of this development, Wille resumed his activity with the fighting units.
"Through Himmler's new organization an office called "Personal Office" had been newly established among others. This office was nominally given to Poppendick, in addition to his other activities in other departments. I always had the impression that the socalled 'Personal Office,' being a superfluous establishment, was a mere designation. For practically nothing changed in Grawitz's office administration in comparison with the usual habits up to September 1943.
"I was not aware that a new office had been established, with Poppendick as director, which now dealt with the correspondence of the Reich Physician. As usual, only his secretary was still working in Grawitz's outer office. I received as before documents and any instructions directly from Grawitz, not from Poppendick. Documents with which I was to deal were so marked by Grawitz in his own handwriting, not by Poppendick. If I had something to discuss with the Reich Physician, I went as before directly to Grawitz.
"Such discussions nearly always took place in private. On these occasions Grawitz frequently used to hand over or discuss with me those documents from his mail with which I had to deal, or which concerned my special sphere. Grawitz usually took such documents from a portfolio in his private desk. I noticed that Grawitz was always very careful to preserve the prescribed secrecy. He was very particular to settle secret matters personally and orally, if possible, not in the presence of a third person.
"Orders could only come from Grawitz. Poppendick had no authority to give me or my subordinates orders or instructions. Poppendick had neither the position nor the authority of a chief of staff. I also did not notice that Poppendick had any other powers conferred upon him by Grawitz.
"On the contrary, I was more of the impression that Grawitz even after 1 September 1943, settled all the essential office matters himself and only occasionally gave incidental commissions to Poppendick.
"I was never aware that the Reich Physician SS held staff conferences for the purpose of planning experiments on human beings."
Then follows the signature and the certification of Blumenreuter.
MR. HARDY: May it please the Court, I have a question to ask of the interpreting division, whether or not when Counsel refers to "personal office," he intends "personal" office or "personnel" office. I wonder if that is clear, whether the word is "personal" or "personnel."
DR. BOEMM: Quoting from my statement in this connection, there can be no doubt that it was a matter of a chief of the personal office, and not personnel office.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, the term "personal office" is a little ambiguous. You might offer some explanation as to just what a personal office is. We understand the term "personnel" as taking in employees; we can imagine what a personal office might be, but some explanation might be helpful.
DR. BOEMM: Perhaps the name "personal office" or the activity of the man in charge of this office, activity connected with the staff of this office. But I would find it most useful to clarify this matter later; I would like to question the Defendant in this matter. Regarding the translation, it should be without doubt that it is not the personnel chief but the chief of the personal office.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may offer an explanation of the term when convenient.
DR. BOEMM: In connection with the questioning of the Defendant, I would like to clarify this matter.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may do so at his convenience.
The Tribunal will now be in recess until 1:30 o'clock.
(Recess until 1330 hours, 8 April 1947)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 8 April 1947) THE MARSHAL:
The Tribunal is again in session.
HELMUT POPPENDICK - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION - (Continued) BY DR. BOEHM:
Q I would like to read now from the document which has already been offered, HBO2, the declaration by Dr. Jung, Part 1, which is also in connection with the Grawitz Office. I quote:
From my own knowledge, I can state the following:
1. Workings of the Grawitz office.
While I was working there, until 1940 (April), the office was not particularly important and business there was of minor importance. In effect, the office exhausted itself in attempts at re-construction work.
From the beginning of the war until I left, I was almost exclusively concerned with the organization and training in appropriate schools and courses of the doctors drafted for war service - I was very frequently outside Berlin. (Munich-Freimann, Stralsund, etc.) The management of the office was roughly as follows:
Unless he dealt personally with the mail, Grawitz used the services of his secretary who sat in the antechamber, to receive and deal with the correspondence.
For important or secret mail, Grawitz used his own safe; he kept the key carefully and never let it out of his sight. It was the task of the secretary to sort the incoming mail, and important letters recognized as such by the return address, or secret letters, especially when addressed to Grawitz by name, had to be handed to him unopened. No one else knew about his current conferences or special tasks in the office, because he dealt with them directly in private with the special advisers who came to report or to work on these matters.
It should be added that Grawitz was kept busy in his capacity as managing president of the German Red Cross and could find only little time to work in his SS office, certainly dealt with many things directly concerning the SS, in his other office.
DR. BOEHM: At a later time I shall submit another affidavit by the chief dentist in the office of the Reichsarzt-SS, Dr. Plaschke, and in the interest of speeding up matters, I shall not cross examine this witness although he has arrived a few days ago in Nurnberg.
BY DR. BOEHM:
Q Witness, I would like to ask you now to answer the question of the President of the Tribunal. What difference was there between the chief of the personnel office and the chief of the personal office of the Reichsarzt-SS Grawitz? How do you explain the difference between these two offices in relation to your own position in the office of Dr. Grawitz?
A The so-called personal office doubtless means an office dealing with the correspondence of the Reichsarzt would have gone through this office. The name personal office is unusual in ministry or military organizations. I imagine that this word comes from Himmler himself who apparently liked new formulations. It means nothing but an ordinary office. A personnel office did not exist under the Reichsarzt-SS. There was the personnel main office, and in this personnel main office there was a branch which dealt with medical matters. It is true that Grawitz had a liaison man in this main office that was the adjutant. This established a connection between Grawitz and the personnel main office.
Q I think this seems to be clarified. Did you give signatures apart from the correspondence with the Schwarze Korps in your capacity as chief of the personal office of the Reichsarzt-SS Grawitz?
A. That had nothing to do with my work as chief of the personal office. Before 1943 and afterwards, it happened on various occasions that I signed - that was very rarely. And it was always unimportant things. It happened occasionally that Grawitz did not want to sign some letter and assigned someone lese to do it, either the adjutant or Wille or myself. It also happened in a very few cases that Grawitz dictated something which was not finished when he left. If it was a matter of minor importance, then he told the secretary that he did not want to wait for it, that she was to get the signature from me or from someone else who was in the building.
Q Did you generally receive the order from Grawitz to sign without any special authority in specific matters?
A. No.
Q From your affidavit as to the person it becomes evident that until the fall of 1944 you were the leading physician in the Race and Settlement Office. Did you receive a successor in the fall of 1944?
A Yes, that was Dr. E Reil. He had worked in the Race and Settlement Office earlier. Originally, Reil was to be recalled from the army in '43. He had been drafted at the beginning of the war just as I had been. He was to be recalled because I was to be given an assignment at the front, but the army did not release him and the matter dragged on until the fall of 1944; then he was released by the army and he was given the title Leading Physician in the Race and Settlement Main Office. The head of the Race and Settlement Main Office at the time did not quite approve.
He required me - for the first few months at least - I was to take care of the business of the Race and Settlement Main Office.
Q Did you receive a front assignment after this, in connection with this?
A I waited for it from one month to the next, but apparently the disorganization and the scattering of the SS formations had progressed so far that nothing came of it. Moreover, there were difficulties which I mentioned before.
Q Under Count 1 you are accused of conspiracy. Whom of the co-defendants did you know?
A 12 of the defendants I did not know at all. By name I knew Professor Blome. By name and by sight I knew Professor Karl Brandt, Professor Handloser, Professor Rostock and Dr. Fischer, but I do not know whether these people knew me. I knew slightly Sievers and Gebhardt and Rudolf Brandt. And I knew only Dr. Genzken and Professor Mrugowsky well, but officially I saw them only rarely.
Q Did you take part in the sessions of the Consulting Physicians?
A Yes, I participated in the last two meetings in 1943 and '44.
Q In these conferences did you take part by order or as a deputy of Grawitz?
A No, and I never reported to Grawitz, and I would not have attended the meeting in 1943 unless I had made efforts myself to attend it. I took advantage of this as a good opportunity to keep myself informed of current developments as an internist, as far as I had time to listen to the lectures. For that reason I asked Grawitz in 1943 to give me a ticket.
In 1944 there was no ticket available for me any more. With the approval of Grawitz I went to Hohenlychen on my own and tried to get accommodations there. I managed to get billets and I listened to a few of the lectures. I was not an official participant of the second meeting and the lists which have been submitted show this. I am listed only on the billet list but not on the list of participant.
Q These lists, the accommodation lists and the participant lists, are No. 619, Exhibit 236, on pages 96 and 106 of the German Document Book. Did you talk to one of the co-defendants who took part in these conferences at one of these conferences?
A No, I didn't know any of them well enough at the time.
Q You were only a listener at these conferences but not a participant in discussions, or consultations, or decisions, or work?
A Yes, I merely listened to a few lectures, not even all of the lectures, only the ones in which I was interested. Only the specialists, who were interested, participated in discussions and formulation of decisions, and I was not present because that did not interest me. The people who have merely listened to the lecture left before the discussion.
Q Were there current consultations in the office of Grawitz of the leading physicians of the SS Main Offices?
A Yes, in 1942, perhaps, when Grawitz tried to get the medical system of the Main Offices under his control, he called the doctors together about every month, but that was a forced matter; generally some report was offered and the people concerned hardly had time to appear, therefore, only part of them were present as a rule, and at first representa tives were sent and later the people concerned remained away altogether.
And so after about 6 or 7 meetings these meetings stopped again. No experiments on human beings or anything like that were ever discussed at these meetings.
Q These discussions, were they carried on at regular intervals until the end?
A No, it lasted only a few months. I believe it was in 1942.
Q The prosecution makes you responsible, especially for the high-altitude experiments; in the time of these experiments which is approximately from March 42 to August 42, were you then chief of the personal office of Grawitz?
A No.
Q What activity did you carry out during this time?
A I was leading physician in the Race and Settlement Main Office at the time, and I was working also in the Sippenamt, the genealogical office.
Q During this time did you receive an assignment of work of a duty which was in connection with so-called experiments of rescuing in high altitudes?
A No.
Q Did you know of a visit of Grawitz to Dachau in order to inspect experimental arrangements of Dr. Rascher, or did you even participate in such a visit?
A I did not know about it and I did not participate.
Q Did Grawitz take you along on such visits to concentration camps?
A No, never.
Q How often did you visit concentration camps and to what purpose?
A I was in a concentration camp twice, that was Dachau. The first time was in 1936, rather 1935. There was an inspection for SS officers.
The worshops were visited, the kitchens, the bread factory. They all made a great impression, the prisoners were well nourished. Of course I was curious and looked at them. It made the impression of a modern barracks. There was strict discipline but there was nothing noticeable, at least as far as the things I saw at the time were concerned. Then I was in Dachau again for a short time about in the summer of 1941 for one to two hours. Grawitz had a specialist for tuberculosis whom he had sent to the hospital at Dachau to examine the X-ray pictures of the station of Von Weihern. Someone had said that the doctor in charge had mixed up X-ray pictures and apparently Grawitz was afraid that the Reichsfuehrer might hear about this. Therefore this specialist for tuberculosis was to check the matter, and I was sent along.
I was in the X-ray room of the hospital; and we looked at the X-ray pictures. I did not interfere in any way. It was in 1941. I was wearing the uniform of the General SS; and I was therefore treated as a civilian. The X-ray room was modern. Everything was very clean. I glanced at the tuberculosis ward which was next door. We had to go past it. The patients were lying in single beds. The beds were not one above the other. The patients looked like the patients in the tuberculosis ward in any hospital; and I didn't see anything else. At least I had no unfavorable impression in any respect from these visits of mine, which, I admit, were brief visits; and I was never in any other concentration camp.
Q. Did you have anything to do with the personal relation of Rascher between the transfer of Rascher to the Waffen SS?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever take part in a conference which was hold in the Reichsluftfahrtministerium, the Air Ministry, about experiments of Dr. Rascher.
A. No.
Q. Did you have any knowledge of any kind of criminal high altitude experiments at Dachau?
A. No, I learned of that here.
Q. You are furthermore charged by the prosecution with co-responsibility in freezing experiments during the time of the finishing of these freezing experiments, according to the prosecution. That must have been May 1943. You did not have the title "Chief of the Personal Office"?
A. No.
Q. How did it then come about that you, as the records of Rascher state, took part in that discussion between Grawitz and Rascher. This is Document 320, Prosecution Exhibit 103, English Document Book 3, page 115.
A. I did not attend this conference from the beginning. As a rule Grawitz talked alone to his visitors. I was called in later; and there was a special reason for that.
Q. Did you as a rule take part in these discussions, the discussions which took place in Grawitz's office?
A. No. As I have already said, in general he talked alone to his visitors; but a few times it happened that he called someone in, some officer who happened to be in the building. That was connected with his fears that he might have difficulties with Himmler if he noticed that the other side had some influence with Himmler; and if there were difficulties in such a discussion, then he had the secretary call someone in.
Q. Why did Grawitz do that?
A. Probably from the experience that his position with Himmler could be influenced unfavorably by one-sided reports.
Q. Had you known Rascher before?
A. No, I did not see him either before or after.
Q. What was the course of this discussion as to Grawitz after you had been consulted?
A. After I had been called in Grawitz instructed me briefly. He said that this was about Rascher; that this man had experience in the field of freezing; and that the Reichsfuehrer had told him to draw up a memorandum on cold for the troops. In the course of the discussion while I was present, there was a very tense tone on both sides. Grawitz was opposed to a doctor working independently in the Ahnenerbe without his having any knowledge of it; and he required of Rascher that he should at least inform him. But Rascher refused to do so rather energetically; and he clearly said that the Reichsfuehrer had given him the assignment and that he was directly under the Reichsfuehrer. Then I myself said that as doctors in the Sippenamt we had been independent up to 1939 but that then we had been put under the Reichsarzt as it was generally customary in the military that all medical matters should go through the same channels.
Then Grawitz said he could not publish this memorandum unless there was extensive experience with the troops themselves in the east. It was the completely new formulation of the directives for the treatment of cold, completely different from what had been customary up to then. That much for the discussion. Later I did not hear anything about any memorandum or about Rascher's further experiences.
Q. But you were supposed to have found out at this discussion what experiments Rascher had made?
A. As far as I was personally concerned, nothing was said about experiments which Rascher had conducted.
DR. BOEHM: In accordance with these discussions I herewith submit a photostatic copy of the Document 1578-PS, page 5 to 9. By the document 1578-PS these are notes made in handwriting by Dr. Rascher, which refer to the same discussions which were mentioned in the former examination. Like in document 320 this is on page 36 of the Document Book, HPO. I offer it as Poppendick Exhibit number 4. In order to expedite matters I shall not read this document.
Q. Witness, what impression did Rascher make on you in his behavior and his attitude towards Grawitz?
A. The visitor was a young doctor. His conduct was noteworthy. He was arrogant; he treated Grawitz like an equal. He must have had protection somewhere.
Q. Do you remember in the minutes referring to Rascher of a quotation: "Yes, I've asked the Standartenfuehrer Sievers to come to my place on various occasions in order to receive information. After all, all medical matters end with us."
A. No I could not have said that in that form. I did not have any opportunity to call Sievers in to me, since he was not a doctor and belonged to quite a different agency.
Besides, I do not recall that before 1944 I ever talked to Sievers. He will probably be able to tell us about that when he is examined.
Q. When was this discussion between Rascher and Grawitz at which you were later consulted?
A. That was in January 1943 shortly before the cold experiments were completed.
Q. Did you ever receive a report about these cold experiments, or did you have anything to do with Rascher after this discussion had taken place?
A. No, I did not learn of the cold experiments through a report or in any other way.
Q. Did the Reichsarzt receive an invitation to the conference of the doctors in Nurnberg?
A. I myself know nothing about this. According to the evidence which has been submitted here, no one was present from the office of the Reichsarzt.
Q. Do you know the two SS participants Petersen and Murtung?
A. I know both of them slightly as SS doctors.
Q. Did these two not report to you about this meeting or make any remarks about criminal activities?
A. No, I saw these two only rarely and spoke to them very little.
Q. Did Murtung and Petersen report about this meeting to Grawitz?
A. I know nothing about that.
Q. The prosecution charges that you demanded such experiments with cold and drying as assistant of Grawitz.
A. That's out of the question. I had nothing to do with the technical matters in these discussions. I was merely called in as a witness. Besides, no experiments were mentioned while I was present. It is true that Grawitz emphasized that extensive experience was necessary, especially with the troops in the east, before this new method of treatment could be introduced.
Q. Did you know that SS doctors and Mountain troop doctors collaborated on these questions?
A. No.
Q. Did any orders exist as to this which went through your hands?
A No.
Q Did you know about Grawitz having freezing experiments carried out in his presence or also, perhaps, what orders he gave to this effect?
A No, I know nothing about that.
Q Here you are charged by the prosecution with malaria experiments which took place in dachau from 1942 to 1945. Were you at Dachau at that time?
A No.
Q The witness Vieweg spoke about written reports of Schilling's which sent to Grawitz. Did you know anything about this correspondence between Grawitz and Schilling?
A Only because in 1942, I think it was, I frequently saw letters sent from Schilling to Grawitz; but these letters were marked "Personal" and were opened by Grawitz himself.
Q During later years did you notice anything about the correspondence between Grawitz and Schilling?
A No. At least I did not notice it later. It must have been in 1942 when I noticed a few such letters.
Q These letters, therefore, did not go through you, so that in this correspondence between Grawitz and Schilling you had no knowledge?
A No, these letters went directly to Grawitz personally. Even the secretary did not open them.
Q Did you know Prof. Schilling?
A I knew that Prof. Schilling was one of the well-known specialists for tropical diseases. I also knew that he was working at the Robert Koch Institute for Infectious Diseases. I believe that in 1942, I once saw him at Grawitz's Office.
Q Did you speak to him?
A He didn't know me.
Q Did you have anything to do with him?
A No, I had nothing to do with him. I did not knew him.
Q What did you know of Schilling's activities in Dachau?
A I somehow heard--I think it was from Grawitz himself--that Schilling was carrying on special investigations concerning immunity in malaria which he had begun in Italy and which he was continuing in Germany. It is possible that Dachau was mentioned.
Q Did you know that Schilling infected human beings with malaria?
A No.
Q Did you not know then from the fact that Schilling worked at Dachau--did you not have to know from this fact that he infected inmates?
A I had no impression of his special research. I am not a specialists in this field; and I did not think of it very much. To me Schilling was a famous man; and it never occurred to me that what he was doing could in any way be illegal.
Q Did you know that Grawitz had been with Schilling at Dachau as becomes evidence from the documents in this trial?
A No, I never learned anything about that, Grawitz occasionally went on trips as president of the Red Cross. He visited his provincial offices or Red Cross hospitals. And I assume that he went there when he was on such a trip.
Q According to a copy of the documents submitted by the prosecution a man called Ploetner must have worked with Schilling. Did you know a man by that name?
A I knew Ploetner superficially. I knew that he was a lecturer at the University of Munich and that he was a SS doctor. I don't remember what he looked like. I'm sure I would not recognize him. I saw him once or twice in Grawitz office.
Q At what occasion was this?
A Once I was called in to a discussion in Grawitz's office between Sievers and Ploetner. This was the case of Mrs. Del Franco, which was discussed on this occasion.
Q What was it about this woman Mrs. Del Franco?
A Mrs. Del Franco advocated a new cancer cure. Grawitz had obtained some of this drug from her and had it tested. If I remember rightly, iodine and bismuth were contained in this drug. Then Grawitz sent me to Prof.