Q. Now, does this figure of 2,000 cover simply the period in 1941 when you kept the files or does it cover the whole period from the beginning of 1941 until February 1942?
A. If I understood the question correctly, whether the invalid action was finished in 1942 or whether there were only the patients who were regist
Q. No, witness, I am trying to find out clearly what this 2,000 figure covers; now, as I understand it, for some five months in 1941 you kept certain files on the hospital, did you not?
A. Yes, I wrote them down four or five months of course, not officially
Q. Now, you can say because of having kept these figures that a certain number of people were sent on these invalid transports?
A. By name?
Q. No, the number; and you have mentioned the number 2,000, now is that 2,000 the number of people who were sent for the period of 4 or 5 months when you have kept the files or does the 2,000 figure cover the whole of 1941?
A. No, not the whole year 1941. As far as I recall I observed and registered this list carefully 5 or 6 months. Later I didn't have the time to do this and I did not continue to write them down.
Q. And can you give us the estimate of what the total figure was for the year 1941?
A. The total figure for the year 1941, the hospital including the camp was a little over 5,000.
Q. Now, do you know whether or not these invalid transports continued after you left the hospital in February 1942?
A. In 1942 I am sure there were invalid transports, but how long they went on I do not know exactly.
Q. Now, witness, were non-German Nationals included in these invalid transports?
A. Among the invalids there was a large percentage of non-Germans. At that time the camp had a much higher percentage of primarily people from the East.
Q. That is you say Russians and Poles?
A. Russians, Poles, Czechs, Yugo Slavs, primarily.
Q. Did you, while you were a male nurse in the tuberculosis ward, have to yourself select some of these tuberculosis patients to be included on some of these transports?
A. The order to select these people was never given to me. It was like this, Dr. Brachtels told me "there is an invalid action, from your tuberculosis ward you will have to report at least 50 patients. If you do not do that the camp doctor will select them. You can imagine how many will be left then". I have always said it was terribly difficult for such nurses to make a decision, to decide whether the selection of 50 was the lesser of two evils, or whether we should leave it to the chief doctor to select the invalids. After the chief surgeon, Dr. Wolter, in one invalid action had put the whole block with the exception of the experimental patients, on the invalid list in the second invalid action I selected and reported the patient who were confined to bed and who could not be transferred to some other block or somewhere else.
Q. Now, you state that you are sure that these people were transported to a place near Linz and then exterminated?
A. The prisoners were of course interested in knowing where there comrades were being sent. We could follow the route only as far as Linz, the return of the clothes and the death announcements of the German prisoners. The announcement we read in the camp papers proved to us and made it known to us. The death announcements always said they had died in Dachau.
Q. Witness, were you ever told what the purpose of these invalid transports was?
A. We read in the paper at the end of 1940 or beginning of 1941 an article by Prof. Buttersack. In this article of Prof. Buttersack of Goppingen it stated that it was necessary to have sick persons, who were useless eaters, eliminated as nature does. As an example, he gave the rat and he continued by saying that it was designated against anti-social people, against people who were enemies of the Third Reich and those who were political criminals and they were to be treated in the same way. We realized then what was being done and what was planned. We also knew that the Bishop of Galen had taken up a stand against this action. That was the only way that I can explain it.
Q. And all of this - these invalid transports - were what you knew as Action F-13?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know of any one from Berlin, any important figures, that were interested in this Action F-13? For example was Conti supporting this action, according to your knowledge?
A. I don't know if Conti had anything to do with this action.
Q. Did Conti ever visit Dachau?
A. Yes, Conti was in the Concentration Camp Dachau several times. He visited the tuberculosis ward twice and as far as I know he was in the concentration camp once or twice before.
Q. Now, in the tuberculosis ward did they, in fact, conduct certain experiments on the better methods of treating tubercular patients? For example by Biochemical means?
A. The experimental station for tuberculosis was organized as follows: There was a Homeopathic station and a Medical section. Each section had the same number of patient with about the same case history and they were proving which of the two types of treatment led to quicker cure. The Homeo pathic section was directed by Hanno von Wyhern and the medical section from 1 April 1 1941 by Dr. Brachtel. I am convinced from the facts that the persons received additional rations, milk, etc., in the experimental station and this did the tubercular patients some good.
Q. Let us move on now to February of 1942. When did the high altitude experiments begin in Dachau?
A. The first high altitude experiments were on 22 February 1942. The so-called low pressure cars had been brought in earlier and dismounted. The exact time when the cars came I don't know.
Q. Why do you remember the date when the first experiment were made in the low pressure chambers so well?
A. The 22nd of February is my birthday and the tuberculosis patients made a celebration for me. On that date the experiments started and that is why I remember the date.
Q. Do you remember that the low pressure chamber arrived in Dachau some days before 22 February 1942?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, I am going to have a book brought up to you and if the Tribunal please, this is a book entitled, "Grundriss der Luftfahrtmedizin" by S. Ruf and S. Stutthof, edition of 1944. I am asking the witness to look at a picture on page 29 and tell the Tribunal if the low pressure chamber, which was in Dachau, was similar to the one shown in this picture.
(THE WITNESS IS SHOWN THE BOOK)
A. Yes.
Q. May it please the Tribunal, I do not care to offer the book in evidence, however, I believe you might like to look at the picture and get some idea of the chamber, so that I am asking that it be passed up.
(THE BOOK IS SHOWN TO THE TRIBUNAL)
Q. Witness, was this a moveable low pressure chamber?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, who brought the chamber down to Dachau? Do you know?
A. It was brought into the camp by a coal truck and Dr. Romberg came with it and gave the orders for the assembling and the current.
Q. Witness, do you know Romberg?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you see him in the defendant's box?
A. Yes
Q. Will you tell the court where he is sitting in the defendant's box
A. The fourth man in the second row.
Q. The fourth man from the far end of the box from you, witness?
A. Yes.
Q. I will ask the record to show that the Defendant Romberg was properly identified by the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The record may so show.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. Do you know a man by the name of Siegfried Ruff, witness?
A. Siegfried Ruff was present on the first day of the experiments on February 22nd. I believe that I can recognize Ruff.
Q. How many times have you seen Ruff?
A. I can only recall having seen Ruff once, with certainty.
Q. Do you see a man whom you recognize to be Ruff in the defendants' dock
A. I am not quite certain whether it is the second man in the second row.
Q. Of all the people sitting in the defendants' dock, you find that the second man from the far end from you appears to you to be Ruff?
A. Yes.
MR. McHANEY: I will ask that the record show that the defendant Ruff has been properly identified by the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so show.
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q. Witness, do you know a man by the name of Georg August Weltz?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you see him in the Defendants' dock?
A. Yes
Q. Where is he sitting?
A. He is the sixth man in the second row.
MR. Mc HANEY: I will ask that the record show that the defendant Weltz has been properly identified by the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so show.
BY MR. Mc HANEY:
Q. Can you see the full box from where you are sitting, witness?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know a man by the name of Wolfram Sievers?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you see him in the defendants' dock?
A. Yes.
Q. Where is he sitting?
A. The first man in the first row nearest to me.
MR. McHANEY: I will ask that the record show that the defendant Sievers has been properly identified by the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so show.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. Now, witness, I will ask that you carefully look at all of the defen dants in the dock and indicate which of the people there you have seen before
A. I recognize only one man that I saw in the camp.
Q. What man is that, witness?
A. The first man in the first row, the fartherest one from me.
Q. And can you recall when you saw this man in Dachau?
A. No. Possibly in 1941 or '42, but I don't know on what occasion.
Q. How do you remember that you have seen this man? Do you know his name
A. No.
Q. You just recall his face?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember whether on the occasion that you saw him that he was inspecting the experimental stations in Dachau?
A. It must have been on the occasion of a visit, but whether it was an inspection of the experimental station, I don't know.
Q. Witness, I will ask you if Sievers was wearing a beard when you knew him in Dachau?
A. No.
Q. Does the name Kurt Blome mean anything to you, witness?
A. From Dr. Rascher I frequently heard the name Blome in connection with the blood coagulant drug and in connection with Robert Veichs, I once read a document which was a sort of judgment of racial characteristics of Robert Veichs which had been written and signed by Blome.
Q. Why was Blome interested in Robert Veichs?
A. Whether Blome was interested or whether Rascher had asked Blome to an interest in Veichs, I don't know. I assume, however, that Rascher went Blome with Veichs because of the blood coagulating drug or because of racial matters which played a big role in the Veichs affair since Veichs had been brought to the camp as a jew and under difficult circumstances.
Q. Well, did you understand then that Blome was perhaps interested in racial questions in Germany?
A. I heard from Rascher that Blome was working on a section for racial questions.
Q. How many times did you see Blome, if at all?
A. I saw Blome once in Munich on the occasion of a visit of Robert Veichs to Blome, that is, Robert Veichs had to return a radio which Dr. Rascher had rapaired to Blome. On this occasion I saw Dr. Blome.
Q. I will ask you to again look at the defendants' dock and carefully search the face of each man there and see if you can recall having seen and of these men on the occasion of your contact with Blome?
A. No.
Q. Now, let's go back to the high altitude experiments. Will you tell the Tribunal who worked on these experiments?
A. The experiments were conducted by Dr. Rascher and Dr. Rascher and Dr. Roberg. Ten prisoners were selected and were taken to the station as perman experimental subjects; and they were told that nothing would happen to them In the beginning, the first three weeks, the experiments went off without incident. One day, however, Rascher told me the next day he was going to make a serious experiment and that he would need sixteen Russians who had been condemned to death, and he received these Russians. Then I told Rascher that I would not help, and I actually got Rascher to send me away to the tubercular ward. On that day I know for certain that Rascher's SS-M Endres or other SS-Men conducted these experiments. Dr. Romberg was not th that day. The SS-Man-Endres took the Russian prisoners of war to Rascher a in the evening the parties were taken out. On the next day when I returned to the station, Endres was already there and he said that two more, two Jews would be killed. I am quoting what be said. I left the station again, but I watched to see who would be taken for the experiments. I saw the first one getting into the cat. I could only see his profile. It seemed familiar to me I knew that man worked in the hospital as a tailor. I tried to find out if j was really that man. I went to the place where he worked, and I was told the Endres had just taken the man away.
The first person that I informed was Dr. Romberg whom I met in the corridor. I told Romberg that this was not a person who had been condemned to death, that this was a clear case of mu** on the responsibility of Endres. Romberg went with me to see Rascher to cle** the matter up, but it was discovered that Endres had put this man in the experimental car because he had refused to make a civilian suit for the SS man. Rascher sent the man back; Endres went with him, and remarked: "Well, then you will get an injection today." I must' say that Rascher enterfered ce more and put the man in safety into the bunker. In the meantime, Endres had brought a second man up, a Czech, whom I knew very well. Again it was Romberg together with me who talked to Rascher to stop this experiment or inwuire why a man like Enderes was simply taking people who had never been condemned to death. Rascher went to the camp commandant, Pirkowsky, who personally came to the station and Endres was transferred to Lublin immediately.
An now I come to the subject: it was actually the day on which my com** and I reached the decision that under all circumstances, no matter what happ ned, I wouldn't remain at this -
Q. Now, witness, let me interrupt you just a minute. We will come back and you can tell the full story then.
THE PRESIDENT: We will take a fifteen-minute recess.
(A recess was taken.)
THE PRESIDENT: I will ask the Secretary General to turn this book over to counsel for the prosecution and defense counsel may examine the book.
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q Now, witness, before the recess, you had been telling the Tribunal about the high altitude experiments which you stated began on February 22, 1942, and you had related how early in March Rascher had experimented upon some fifteen Russians who were killed and you stated that neither you nor the defendant Romberg were present on that occasion and you then had gone on to relate the introduction when the SS man in Dachau named Endres had brought in the tailor at the camp and wanted him to be experimented upon and how you recognized the tailor and interceded with Romberg and had this man returned.
Now, before you continue with your story, I would like to put some specific questions to you. It is true, is it not, that concentration camp inmates were experimented on during these high-altitude test experiments?
A Yes.
Q About how many concentration camp inmates were subjected to these high-altitude experiments?
A There were 180 to 200 inmates who were subjected to the high-altitude experiments.
Q Now, when, to the best of your recollection, did the high-altitude experiments end?
A The incident of the dead -- I am afraid I didn't quite get your question. Will you repeat it.
Q I am asking you, witness, when the high altitude experiments ended: that is, when they were completed?
A During the course of June -- maybe the beginning of July, the lowpressure chambers were transported away. I don't recollect the exact date, however.
Q And you state that between February 22 1942 and the end of June, on the beginning of July 1942, approximately 180 to 200 concentration camp inmates were experimented on?
A Yes.
Q Now, what nationalities were experimental subjects?
A I cannot say that with certainty but I think that approximately all nations were represented there; that is, all nations that were in the camp, mostly Russians, Poles, Germans, Jews belonging to any nation. I don't remember any other nationalities being represented there.
Q Were any of these experimental subjects prisoners of war?
A Yes.
Q What nationalities were they; do you recall?
A They were Russians.
Q Now, will you tell the Tribunal how these experimental subjects were selected?
A The experimental subjects who had to be subjected to severe experiments, experiments that would end in death, were requested by Rascher from the camp administration and then furnished by the SS; however, this procedure differed with the so-called series of experiments and a number of other experiments. On those experiments, the people were brought into the experimen tal station straight from the camp, that is, from the blocks.
Q Now, did they, to your knowledge, make any effort in the camp to secure volunteers for these experiments?
A There were certain volunteers for these experiments. That was because Rascher promised certain persons that they would be released from the camp if they underwent these experiments. He sometimes promised them that they would be detailed to more favorable work.
Q Now, about how many of such volunteers would you say there were for the high-altitude experiments?
A I don't know the exact number. It is not too high; approximately ten inmates volunteered for that purpose.
Q Now, did these volunteers come one at a time or did they come in a body or just how did they present themselves to the experimental stations?
A Rascher moved around the camp quite a lot and on that occasion the inmates spoke to him.
Q In other words, the camp officials and Rascher and Romberg made no effort to find volunteers, did they?
A I don't know, but I shouldn't think so. I shouldn't think that they made great efforts to get volunteers.
Q Now, other than these approximately ten persons who you state presented themselves as volunteers, were all the rest of the experimental subjects simply picked out and brought in and experimented on?
A Yes.
Q Were any of these prisoners experimented upon released from the concentration camp because they underwent the experiments?
A There is only one man who was released after the high-altitude experiments.
Q And who was that?
AAn inmate with the name of Zopota (?).
Q And did Zopota assist Rascher in his experimental work other than simply undergoing the experiment? Was he something in the nature of an assist to Rasher?
A No. Zobota was one of those persons who had to undergo most of the experiments and he was also used on one experiment which was conducted in the presence of the Reichsfuehrer SS. On that occasion he was asked by the Reichsfuehrer how long he had been in the camp and he promised him that he would be released. He was later sent to the Group Tuerlewanger and committed there.
Q Was it considered a privilege to be released to the Group Tuerlewanger?
A No. The inmates who later were forced to transfer to Group Tuerlewanger thought that this was the worse thing that could happen to them.
Q Will you tell the Tribunal just what the Group Tuerlewanger was an SS Division who received their education in Oranienburg and who were used for special purposes. At one time 200 German political inmates in this group were incidentally transferred to the Russians but all the persons who were forced to join this group were very disgusted because they had to join the SS and fight for them. They considered that as one of the worse shames that they should just be selected to join the SS.
Q. Was the Tuerlewanger a special commando group?
A. Yes, it was a special commando group and was committed at the most dangerous spots. However, I only know that from comrades to whom I have spoken about this matter after the liberation.
Q. Now, other than the prisoner Zopota were there any other concentration camp inmates released as a result of undergoing the High Altitude Experimen
A. I know of no case except Zopota.
Q. Do you know of any cases where a prisoner condemned to death had his sentence commuted to life imprisonment because he underwent the High Altitude Experiments?
A. No.
Q. Witness, were any political prisoners used in this High Altitude Experiments?
A. Yes, there were political prisoners who were used in this experiment. All foreigners were considered as political prisoners.
Q. Witness, tell the Tribunal how one can tell the difference between a political and a criminal prisoner in a concentration camp?
A. The inmates had certain squares and numbers, the political inmates, the German inmates had a red square; the Poles had a red square with a "P" marked on it; Russia had an "R"; and, all nationalities could be identified with the first letter of their country. The red square with a yellow star was the jew. The green square was the sign of the so-called professional criminal. Here it has to be said that there were quite a number of people who had these green squares, and who did not fall under the classification of professional criminals, but who were sent to the camp with that square since the Gestapo could find no excuse to send them into the camp as political prisoners.
Q. Now, was this square really a square or a triangle?
A. It was really a triangle with the head of the triangle pointed down the earth. If it pointed upward, it was a member of the Wehrmacht who was sent to the camp for punishment.
Q. Now, to sum up then, the political prisoners wore a red triangle, the criminal prisoners wore a green triangle, and the jewish prisoners wore a red triangle with a yellow star superimposed upon it; is that right?
A. That is right, yes.
Q. Now, witness, were these badges worn on the prisoner's uniform where any one could see them?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether the defendant Romberg knew what these emblems meant
A. I am quite sure Romberg knew what these signs meant.
Q. Now, witness, this Tribunal has received in evidence certain pictures of concentration camp inmates under going the High Altitude Experiments in Dachau. Now, I want you to look at these pictures and I will then ask you a question about them.
(The pictures were handed to the witness.)
Witness, I will ask you whether you see any triangles on the uniforms sho of those prisoners undergoing the experiments there?
A. No.
Q. Can you explain to the Tribunal why no such emblems are on those uniform
A. Yes.
Q. What is the reason?
A. Whenever the experiments were performed, inmates received a civilian suit and no one could tell they were inmates. We are here concerned with photographs, and I know that inmates, whenever they were photographed, received a civilian suit in a good condition, and it had no emblems on it whatsoever. That is the reason why they are not on the photographs. You could determine what triangle was worn by the experimental subject.
Q. But, witness, you have seen in some of the photographs, that the inmates had on the usual striped prisoner's garb. Can you explain why no emblems appear on the prisoners uniform in these pictures?
A. The clothes which the inmates received were mostly very dirty because every inmate had only one suit for himself, which he could only exchange once a year. And, it is natural that when Rascher wanted photographs for himself he would give them a suit, a striped suit, which was clean. Since every inmate who received a suit had to sew on his triangle and his number himself, it can be understood why there was no triangle on this suit.
Q. Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. McHaney, may we see the photographs, please.
MR. McHANEY: Yes, Sir; this is Document No. 610, your Honor, and I am just having the Exhibit number checked. This is Prosecution's Exhibit 41, your Honor, and it consists of between thirty-five and forty pictures.
Q. Now, witness, were any jews experimented on in these High Altitude Experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, tell the Tribunal approximately how many prisoners were killed during the course of the High Altitude Experiments?
A. During the High Altitude Experiments seventy to eighty persons were killed.
Q. Did they experiment on prisoners other than those condemned to death?
A. Yes.
Q. Were any of those prisoners who had not been condemned to death killed during the course of the High Altitude Experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any idea how many may have been killed?
A. There could have been approximately forty persons.
Q. That is, forty persons were killed, who had not been condemned to death out of a total of seventy, did you say?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, were some of those killed, political prisoners?
A. Yes.
Q. Is there any way of telling whether or not a prisoner had been condemned to death, that is, when the experimental subject arrived in the pressure chamber, was there any way to know whether he had been condemned to death?
A. Once the experimental subject came from the Bunker, that is, as soon as the SS took them out, we could always tell they were prisoners who had been condemned to death. When the inmates were sent by the camp leader, and were brought there by him, then we could also tell they were persons who came from the camp, and that these were not persons who had been condemned to death.
Q. Now, could Romberg tell this just as you did?
A. He could only know it if he tried to find out about it, because he could hardly differentiate and tell whether the person concerned came from the Bunker or came from the camps.
Q. But, you could tell that yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Romberg ever ask you whether or not these experimental subjects had been condemned to death?
A. I do not remember Romberg ever asking me about that.
Q. Were records kept in the concentration camp which showed whether or not a man had been condemned to death?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether Romberg ever checked these records?
A. I do not know that.
Q. You do not know if he ever checked them, is that right?
A. No.
Q. Can you remember, approximately, how many deaths Romberg witnessed during these High Altitude Experiments, if any?
A. I can remember five cases where Romberg was present during cases of death; whether he was present on other occasions, I do not know. It is possible but I am not sure of it.
Q. You are sure of only five cases?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Romberg ever make any objections concerning these deaths?
A. I do not know about Romberg having made any protests against it.
Q. He did not make any protest in your presence?
A. Only at the time when we were concerned with the incident, which I reported about earlier. I do not know anything about anything else.
Q. The incident about the tailor?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did they perform autopsies on any of these bodies, the bodies on the persons who were killed during the High Altitude Experiments?
A. I do not understand your expression, autopsies?
Q. By autopsies, I mean, did they dissect the bodies of the persons who were killed in the High Altitude Experiments?
A. During the experiments, one autopsy was performed, and that was at ten thousand meters; otherwise, the largest number of the experimental subjects who died were autopsied in the morgue.
Q. Now, you say they actually performed one autopsy in the low pressure chamber at ten thousand meters?
A. Yes.
Q. Why was that done?
A. I am to little of an expert in order to express myself properly. I only know that it was said that gas or certain air in the brain which result at high altitudes, and they wanted to determine how the prisoner would rea** in this high altitude.
Q Did Romberg assist in this particular autopsy in the low pressure camber?
A Yes.
Q Was this man deliberately killed in the low pressure chamber?
A Yes.
Q Do you mean to state that he was killed because they wanted to see what effect these particular pressures had on his body; that is, how long they had to continue the pressure until he died?
A Yes
Q Did they at times perform autopsies or dissections under water?
A No.
Q You do not remember that they performed dissections under water? You don't remember that?
A I am sure that was not done in Dachau; and it would really have been impossible considering the size of the experimental room.
Q Do you remember any cases of dissection where the heart continued beating after the breast had been opened?
A Yes. During one autopsy it was found after the breast had been opened and even after the heart had been opened that the heart was still beating. I know that exactly because I brought the Ekg apparatus into the morgue; and I then recorded this beating heart on the Ekg. This experiment caused many cases of death because many more experiments were made in order to see how long the heart of a man could beat who was thus autopsied. I then had the task of carrying the rolls of the Ekg apparatus from the dark room to the window of the morgue.
Q Did Romberg witness any of these cases where the heart continued beating after the breast had been opened?
A Yes.
Q Was he particularly interested in that phenomenon?
A I don't know that since I wasn't actually in the morgue; but I always went there from the X-ray room to the window.
Q Now, were any of those dissections performed while the victim was still alive? -621
A No, because you cannot consider the beating heart as still being alive.
Q So, as far as you recall, there were no instances in which the experimental subject had simply lost consciousness but had not yet died when they performed an autopsy?
A No.
Q Now, you recall that the defendant Ruff was in Dachau?
A I remember that on the first day of the beginning of this experiment Ruff was present during the experiment. I did not see him on any other occasions.
Q Were experiments performed that first day?
A Yes.
Q Did any deaths occur that day?
A No.
Q Now, you have stated that there were certain volunteers for these high altitude experiments; and you have also stated that the first experiment were carried out on ten subjects. Were any of those first ten subjects volunteers?
A The first ten subjects were not volunteers; and they did not remain at the station only at the beginning; but they stayed there during the entire period, that is, for the entire period that the low pressure chamber was there. Every one of these experimental subjects experienced twenty to thirty experiments.
Q Now, Witness, based upon what you observed and heard at Dachau, can you say that these Experiments were conducted for the benefit of the Luftwaffe?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember seeing any officers of the Luftwaffe visit the experimental station in Dachau?
A Certainly. Very frequently high officers of the Luftwaffe, of the SS, and of the Wehrmacht visited the experimental station. However, I can only remember the names of the leading SS men who were there; and I know no name of any Luftwaffe officer who visited the experimental station.
Q What are the names of the SS people that you remember?