THE PRESIDENT: I will ask the Secretary General to turn this book over to counsel for the prosecution and defense counsel may examine the book.
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q Now, witness, before the recess, you had been telling the Tribunal about the high altitude experiments which you stated began on February 22, 1942, and you had related how early in March Rascher had experimented upon some fifteen Russians who were killed and you stated that neither you nor the defendant Romberg were present on that occasion and you then had gone on to relate the introduction when the SS man in Dachau named Endres had brought in the tailor at the camp and wanted him to be experimented upon and how you recognized the tailor and interceded with Romberg and had this man returned.
Now, before you continue with your story, I would like to put some specific questions to you. It is true, is it not, that concentration camp inmates were experimented on during these high-altitude test experiments?
A Yes.
Q About how many concentration camp inmates were subjected to these high-altitude experiments?
A There were 180 to 200 inmates who were subjected to the high-altitude experiments.
Q Now, when, to the best of your recollection, did the high-altitude experiments end?
A The incident of the dead -- I am afraid I didn't quite get your question. Will you repeat it.
Q I am asking you, witness, when the high altitude experiments ended: that is, when they were completed?
A During the course of June -- maybe the beginning of July, the lowpressure chambers were transported away. I don't recollect the exact date, however.
Q And you state that between February 22 1942 and the end of June, on the beginning of July 1942, approximately 180 to 200 concentration camp inmates were experimented on?
A Yes.
Q Now, what nationalities were experimental subjects?
A I cannot say that with certainty but I think that approximately all nations were represented there; that is, all nations that were in the camp, mostly Russians, Poles, Germans, Jews belonging to any nation. I don't remember any other nationalities being represented there.
Q Were any of these experimental subjects prisoners of war?
A Yes.
Q What nationalities were they; do you recall?
A They were Russians.
Q Now, will you tell the Tribunal how these experimental subjects were selected?
A The experimental subjects who had to be subjected to severe experiments, experiments that would end in death, were requested by Rascher from the camp administration and then furnished by the SS; however, this procedure differed with the so-called series of experiments and a number of other experiments. On those experiments, the people were brought into the experimen tal station straight from the camp, that is, from the blocks.
Q Now, did they, to your knowledge, make any effort in the camp to secure volunteers for these experiments?
A There were certain volunteers for these experiments. That was because Rascher promised certain persons that they would be released from the camp if they underwent these experiments. He sometimes promised them that they would be detailed to more favorable work.
Q Now, about how many of such volunteers would you say there were for the high-altitude experiments?
A I don't know the exact number. It is not too high; approximately ten inmates volunteered for that purpose.
Q Now, did these volunteers come one at a time or did they come in a body or just how did they present themselves to the experimental stations?
A Rascher moved around the camp quite a lot and on that occasion the inmates spoke to him.
Q In other words, the camp officials and Rascher and Romberg made no effort to find volunteers, did they?
A I don't know, but I shouldn't think so. I shouldn't think that they made great efforts to get volunteers.
Q Now, other than these approximately ten persons who you state presented themselves as volunteers, were all the rest of the experimental subjects simply picked out and brought in and experimented on?
A Yes.
Q Were any of these prisoners experimented upon released from the concentration camp because they underwent the experiments?
A There is only one man who was released after the high-altitude experiments.
Q And who was that?
AAn inmate with the name of Zopota (?).
Q And did Zopota assist Rascher in his experimental work other than simply undergoing the experiment? Was he something in the nature of an assist to Rasher?
A No. Zobota was one of those persons who had to undergo most of the experiments and he was also used on one experiment which was conducted in the presence of the Reichsfuehrer SS. On that occasion he was asked by the Reichsfuehrer how long he had been in the camp and he promised him that he would be released. He was later sent to the Group Tuerlewanger and committed there.
Q Was it considered a privilege to be released to the Group Tuerlewanger?
A No. The inmates who later were forced to transfer to Group Tuerlewanger thought that this was the worse thing that could happen to them.
Q Will you tell the Tribunal just what the Group Tuerlewanger was an SS Division who received their education in Oranienburg and who were used for special purposes. At one time 200 German political inmates in this group were incidentally transferred to the Russians but all the persons who were forced to join this group were very disgusted because they had to join the SS and fight for them. They considered that as one of the worse shames that they should just be selected to join the SS.
Q. Was the Tuerlewanger a special commando group?
A. Yes, it was a special commando group and was committed at the most dangerous spots. However, I only know that from comrades to whom I have spoken about this matter after the liberation.
Q. Now, other than the prisoner Zopota were there any other concentration camp inmates released as a result of undergoing the High Altitude Experimen
A. I know of no case except Zopota.
Q. Do you know of any cases where a prisoner condemned to death had his sentence commuted to life imprisonment because he underwent the High Altitude Experiments?
A. No.
Q. Witness, were any political prisoners used in this High Altitude Experiments?
A. Yes, there were political prisoners who were used in this experiment. All foreigners were considered as political prisoners.
Q. Witness, tell the Tribunal how one can tell the difference between a political and a criminal prisoner in a concentration camp?
A. The inmates had certain squares and numbers, the political inmates, the German inmates had a red square; the Poles had a red square with a "P" marked on it; Russia had an "R"; and, all nationalities could be identified with the first letter of their country. The red square with a yellow star was the jew. The green square was the sign of the so-called professional criminal. Here it has to be said that there were quite a number of people who had these green squares, and who did not fall under the classification of professional criminals, but who were sent to the camp with that square since the Gestapo could find no excuse to send them into the camp as political prisoners.
Q. Now, was this square really a square or a triangle?
A. It was really a triangle with the head of the triangle pointed down the earth. If it pointed upward, it was a member of the Wehrmacht who was sent to the camp for punishment.
Q. Now, to sum up then, the political prisoners wore a red triangle, the criminal prisoners wore a green triangle, and the jewish prisoners wore a red triangle with a yellow star superimposed upon it; is that right?
A. That is right, yes.
Q. Now, witness, were these badges worn on the prisoner's uniform where any one could see them?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether the defendant Romberg knew what these emblems meant
A. I am quite sure Romberg knew what these signs meant.
Q. Now, witness, this Tribunal has received in evidence certain pictures of concentration camp inmates under going the High Altitude Experiments in Dachau. Now, I want you to look at these pictures and I will then ask you a question about them.
(The pictures were handed to the witness.)
Witness, I will ask you whether you see any triangles on the uniforms sho of those prisoners undergoing the experiments there?
A. No.
Q. Can you explain to the Tribunal why no such emblems are on those uniform
A. Yes.
Q. What is the reason?
A. Whenever the experiments were performed, inmates received a civilian suit and no one could tell they were inmates. We are here concerned with photographs, and I know that inmates, whenever they were photographed, received a civilian suit in a good condition, and it had no emblems on it whatsoever. That is the reason why they are not on the photographs. You could determine what triangle was worn by the experimental subject.
Q. But, witness, you have seen in some of the photographs, that the inmates had on the usual striped prisoner's garb. Can you explain why no emblems appear on the prisoners uniform in these pictures?
A. The clothes which the inmates received were mostly very dirty because every inmate had only one suit for himself, which he could only exchange once a year. And, it is natural that when Rascher wanted photographs for himself he would give them a suit, a striped suit, which was clean. Since every inmate who received a suit had to sew on his triangle and his number himself, it can be understood why there was no triangle on this suit.
Q. Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. McHaney, may we see the photographs, please.
MR. McHANEY: Yes, Sir; this is Document No. 610, your Honor, and I am just having the Exhibit number checked. This is Prosecution's Exhibit 41, your Honor, and it consists of between thirty-five and forty pictures.
Q. Now, witness, were any jews experimented on in these High Altitude Experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, tell the Tribunal approximately how many prisoners were killed during the course of the High Altitude Experiments?
A. During the High Altitude Experiments seventy to eighty persons were killed.
Q. Did they experiment on prisoners other than those condemned to death?
A. Yes.
Q. Were any of those prisoners who had not been condemned to death killed during the course of the High Altitude Experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any idea how many may have been killed?
A. There could have been approximately forty persons.
Q. That is, forty persons were killed, who had not been condemned to death out of a total of seventy, did you say?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, were some of those killed, political prisoners?
A. Yes.
Q. Is there any way of telling whether or not a prisoner had been condemned to death, that is, when the experimental subject arrived in the pressure chamber, was there any way to know whether he had been condemned to death?
A. Once the experimental subject came from the Bunker, that is, as soon as the SS took them out, we could always tell they were prisoners who had been condemned to death. When the inmates were sent by the camp leader, and were brought there by him, then we could also tell they were persons who came from the camp, and that these were not persons who had been condemned to death.
Q. Now, could Romberg tell this just as you did?
A. He could only know it if he tried to find out about it, because he could hardly differentiate and tell whether the person concerned came from the Bunker or came from the camps.
Q. But, you could tell that yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Romberg ever ask you whether or not these experimental subjects had been condemned to death?
A. I do not remember Romberg ever asking me about that.
Q. Were records kept in the concentration camp which showed whether or not a man had been condemned to death?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether Romberg ever checked these records?
A. I do not know that.
Q. You do not know if he ever checked them, is that right?
A. No.
Q. Can you remember, approximately, how many deaths Romberg witnessed during these High Altitude Experiments, if any?
A. I can remember five cases where Romberg was present during cases of death; whether he was present on other occasions, I do not know. It is possible but I am not sure of it.
Q. You are sure of only five cases?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Romberg ever make any objections concerning these deaths?
A. I do not know about Romberg having made any protests against it.
Q. He did not make any protest in your presence?
A. Only at the time when we were concerned with the incident, which I reported about earlier. I do not know anything about anything else.
Q. The incident about the tailor?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did they perform autopsies on any of these bodies, the bodies on the persons who were killed during the High Altitude Experiments?
A. I do not understand your expression, autopsies?
Q. By autopsies, I mean, did they dissect the bodies of the persons who were killed in the High Altitude Experiments?
A. During the experiments, one autopsy was performed, and that was at ten thousand meters; otherwise, the largest number of the experimental subjects who died were autopsied in the morgue.
Q. Now, you say they actually performed one autopsy in the low pressure chamber at ten thousand meters?
A. Yes.
Q. Why was that done?
A. I am to little of an expert in order to express myself properly. I only know that it was said that gas or certain air in the brain which result at high altitudes, and they wanted to determine how the prisoner would rea** in this high altitude.
Q Did Romberg assist in this particular autopsy in the low pressure camber?
A Yes.
Q Was this man deliberately killed in the low pressure chamber?
A Yes.
Q Do you mean to state that he was killed because they wanted to see what effect these particular pressures had on his body; that is, how long they had to continue the pressure until he died?
A Yes
Q Did they at times perform autopsies or dissections under water?
A No.
Q You do not remember that they performed dissections under water? You don't remember that?
A I am sure that was not done in Dachau; and it would really have been impossible considering the size of the experimental room.
Q Do you remember any cases of dissection where the heart continued beating after the breast had been opened?
A Yes. During one autopsy it was found after the breast had been opened and even after the heart had been opened that the heart was still beating. I know that exactly because I brought the Ekg apparatus into the morgue; and I then recorded this beating heart on the Ekg. This experiment caused many cases of death because many more experiments were made in order to see how long the heart of a man could beat who was thus autopsied. I then had the task of carrying the rolls of the Ekg apparatus from the dark room to the window of the morgue.
Q Did Romberg witness any of these cases where the heart continued beating after the breast had been opened?
A Yes.
Q Was he particularly interested in that phenomenon?
A I don't know that since I wasn't actually in the morgue; but I always went there from the X-ray room to the window.
Q Now, were any of those dissections performed while the victim was still alive? -621
A No, because you cannot consider the beating heart as still being alive.
Q So, as far as you recall, there were no instances in which the experimental subject had simply lost consciousness but had not yet died when they performed an autopsy?
A No.
Q Now, you recall that the defendant Ruff was in Dachau?
A I remember that on the first day of the beginning of this experiment Ruff was present during the experiment. I did not see him on any other occasions.
Q Were experiments performed that first day?
A Yes.
Q Did any deaths occur that day?
A No.
Q Now, you have stated that there were certain volunteers for these high altitude experiments; and you have also stated that the first experiment were carried out on ten subjects. Were any of those first ten subjects volunteers?
A The first ten subjects were not volunteers; and they did not remain at the station only at the beginning; but they stayed there during the entire period, that is, for the entire period that the low pressure chamber was there. Every one of these experimental subjects experienced twenty to thirty experiments.
Q Now, Witness, based upon what you observed and heard at Dachau, can you say that these Experiments were conducted for the benefit of the Luftwaffe?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember seeing any officers of the Luftwaffe visit the experimental station in Dachau?
A Certainly. Very frequently high officers of the Luftwaffe, of the SS, and of the Wehrmacht visited the experimental station. However, I can only remember the names of the leading SS men who were there; and I know no name of any Luftwaffe officer who visited the experimental station.
Q What are the names of the SS people that you remember?
A Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, Reichsfuehrer SS Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff, Dr. Grawitz, Dr. Barnsdorf, and Adjutant Schnitzler.
Q He was from Munich, Schnitzler?
A Yes.
Q Was Sievers in the experimental station often?
A I don't remember that Sievers was present during the experiments at the experimental station.
Q You mean you do not recall that on any occasion Sievers visited the experimental station while the high altitude experiments were going on?
A I know that Sievers was there to visit the block at the time when the station was first planned and the chambers arrived; but I cannot tell you now whether at that time the experiments were already being conducted.
Q Do you recall when it was that Rascher became the head of a department in the "Ahnenerbe"?
A That the experimental station was subordinated to the "Ahnenerbe" started, as far as I know, at the time of the beginning of the freezing experiments. Whether that had already happened at an earlier date or not I don't know.
Q And you became a civilian employee of the "Ahnenerbe" in September, 19 is that right?
A Yes.
Q Now, Witness, did you ever hear the name of Erhardt Milch mentioned in connection with these high altitude experiments?
A Yes.
Q On what occasion?
A I had the impression that Romberg tried intentionally to withdraw from these experiments. He eas ill on numerous occasions; and he had often left on trips. Of course, the negative thing in that connection was that Rascher had to work all the more.
I spoke to Romberg himself and I asked him how long the low pressures should remain; and he said that Milch was going to use them, and he would try to do everything to send them away as quickly as possible. That happened approximately the middle or the end of May. I remember that because this meant the time for me to try to make this chamber harmless.
I used some glass files and started filing on the high altitude appara During the next experiment it smashed to bits. Romberg managed to get some substitute parts within fourteen days so that the chamber was still being us for about another three weeks in spite of that.
Q Now. Witness, if I understand you correctly, you have stated that you got the impression that maybe Romberg wanted to withdraw from these experiments and that upon asking you were told that the chamber would remain in Dachau three more weeks and that you then attempted to sabotage the low pressure chamber. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And did you think that if you succeeded in sabotaging the chamber that Romberg would use that is an excuse to discontinue the experiments?
A I hoped for it, naturally; and I hoped that this series of experiments would be interrupted; and I didn't think that he would get hold pf spare parts as quickly as he did.
A Then I take it that Romberg disappointed you in not taking that opportunity to discontinue the experiments? Is that right?
A Yes.
Q Where did he go to get the spare parts?
A He went to Berlin.
Q How long did it take him before the chamber was again in order?
AAs far as I know, it took fourteen days to three weeks. That was the time that Romberg was away.
Q When did this occur?
AAt the end of May.
Q Now, I understand you to say that the experiments continued after the chamber had been fixed again?
A Yes.
Q How much longer did they last?
A I'm sure it lasted another three weeks.
Q Were experimental subjects killed during the last three weeks?
A Yes. Rascher killed fire persons on the last day.
Q Now, did the defendant Romberg witness any of these deaths that occurred during the last three or four weeks?
A I don't remember that exactly.
Q Well, now, Witness, if Romberg had gone to such extremes to get this low pressure chamber repaired and it was repaired, it seems to me that he would have stayed around and observed the experiments for the last few weeks. Didn't he do that?
A Romberg suffered from a gall-bladder disease and was very often away from the experimental station; and it is quite possible that he wasn't present at that time.
Q You have stated, as I understand it, that Romberg witnessed at least five deaths. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Was he informed about the other deaths that occurred?
AAs to how far Dr. Rascher informed Romberg regarding the number of the death cases, I don't know.
Q Well, didn't Romberg ever ask you? Wasn't he interested in knowing what went on while he happened to be away?
A I cannot remember Romberg's having asked me personally what Rascher had done in the meantime. It really is the case that Rascher was a Stabs Physician of the Luftwaffe; and I was, after all, only an inmate.
Q Can you remember only five cases of death which Romberg observed?
A Yes.
Q Now, let's go back to sabotaging the pressure chamber. How long before that had deaths occurred? Do you recall?
A From the beginning of March up to the transporting away of these chambers, it varied. Romberg made a series of experiments during the day and mostly left at approximately 6:00 o'clock in the evening. Then Rascher continued to work by himself. So there were cases of deaths nearly every day. What I want to say is that because of the fact that these death experiments were only carried through by Rascher during the evening, it can be explained that Romberg wasn't present.
Q But you have stated that Romberg has witnessed five deaths, so it's not true that all the death experiments were carried out during the night, is it?
A No, certainly not.
Q Well, that was the impression I got from your answer just a moment that all the death experiments occurred at night. That's not true, is it?
A No. -625
Q. All right, now, let's explain to the Tribunal just how you managed to sabotage the low-pressure chamber. What did you do to ist?
A. The high-altitude measuring apparatus was built into a separate chamber. There's a glass tube there which is connected with a glass bottle The mercuru inside this tube rises up, depending upon the amount of pressure applied and what I thought was the mercury would rise and the glass would not be able to stand the pressure and would therefore have to burst and in that manner one evening I used a glass file and started to file the back wall of this case. Just as I expected at the next experiment the entire apparatus smashed to bits. The thing that surprised me, however, was that not only the glass guage burst but also the entire bottle where the mercury was had burst too. I can only explain it that the mercury caused the other part of the glass to burst too.
Q. Now, how were you able to file this glass? Wasn't it quite hard?
A. As I stated before, I used a glass file. I used ten glass files for that purpose; files which we had in the hospital in order to saw veins with them.
Q. Now, we have been over the low-pressure experiments and you have given us quite a lot of figures. Is there anything else which you feel that you should tell us about these high-altitude experiments?
A. No.
Q. All right. Let's move on to the freezing experiments. When did the freezing experiments start?
A. During August or at the end of July the first freezing experiments started. They were conducted by Prof. Holzloehner, Dr. Finke and Dr. Rascher The freezing experiments can be divided into two separate departments. One a series of Holzloehner-Finke which were later excluded and then a series where Dr. Rascher made these experiments himself.
Q. All right; suppose you describe the experimental basin.
A. The experimental basin was built of wood. It was two meters long and two meters high. It was about 50 centimeters above the floor and it was in Block No.5. There were found in the experimental chamber and basin many lighting instruments and other apparatus which were used in order to carry out measurements.
Q. Now, you have stated that you can divide the freezing experiments into two groups; one where Holzloehner and Finke were working with Rascher and then the period after Holzloehner and Finke had left?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, will you tell the Tribunal approximately how persons were used over the whole period? That is, including both groups that you have mention A. 280 to 300 experimental subjects were used for these freezing experiments.
There were really 360 to 400 experiments that were conducted since many experimental subjects experienced more than one such experiment. Sometimes even three.
Q. Now, out of the total of 280 or 300 prisoners used approximately how many of them died?
A. As a result of these freezing experiments approximately 80 to 90 subjects died.
Q. Now, how many experimental subjects do you remember that they used in the Holzloehner-Finke-Rascher experiments?
A. During that period of time approximately 50 to 60 subjects were used for experimental purposes.
Q. Did any of these experimental subjects die?
A. Yes. During that period of time there were about 15, maybe even 18 cases of death.
Q. When was that experimental series concluded?
A. It was concluded in the month of October. I think it was at the end of October. At that time Holzloehner and Finke discontinued these experiments giving the reason that they had accomplished their purpose and that it was useless to carry out further experiments of that kind.
Q. And then Rascher continued experiments on his own?
A. Yes. Then Rascher conducted these experiments giving the reasons that he had to build a scientific basis for them and he prepared a lecture for University Marburg on that subject.
Q. How long died Rascher continue to experiment with freezing by cold water?
A. Until May 1943.
Q. Now, were the experimental subjects for the freezing experiments selected in the same way as for the high-altitude experiments?
A. No. Here Rascher turned to the camp administration and told them that he needed so and so many experimental subjects. Then the political department of the camp selected ten inmates by name. That list was sent to the Camp Commander and was signed by the Camp Commander and they were then sent to Rascher's station and the subjects on that list had to be experimented on. The original list I could use as evidence material in the first Dachau trial as evidence.
Q. Now do I understand then that the experimental subjects used in the freezing experiments were political prisoners?
A. There were certainly a number of political prisoners and also a number of foreigners, but certainly there were also prisoners for war and also inmates who had been condemned to death.
Q. Those persons were not volunteers were they?
A. No.
Q. Now suppose you describe to the Tribunal exactly how these freezing experiments were carried out, that is what tests they made, how they measure the temperature and how the temperature of the water was lowered in the ba*** and so forth?
A. These basins were filled with water and ice was added until the water measured three degrees, and the experimental subjects were either dressed in a flying suit or were placed into the ice water in a naked state. During the period when Holzloehner and Finke were active most experiments were conducted under narcotiecs while during the Rascher period he had always rejected narcotics because he maintained that you could not find the exact condition of the blood, and that you would exclude the will power of the experimental subject if he was under anesthetic. Now whenever the experiment subjects were conscious it took sometime until so-called freezing narcosis s in. The temperature was measured rectally and through the stomach through the Glavanometer apparatus. The sinking down of the temperature until 32 degress was a terrible plight for the experimental subject. At 32 degrees the experimental subject lost consciousness. These persons were frozen down to 25 degrees body temperature, and now in order to enable you to understand this problem, I should like to tell you something about the Holzloehner and Finke period. During the period when Holzloehner and Finke were active no experimental subject was actually killed in the water. The death cases only occurred at that time during the revial or rather during the re-warming. The temperature was further cooled down which caused the heart failure, and this also occurred because of the flight therapy so that in contrast to the low pressure chamber experiments, it has to be said here that the death victims the Finke-Holzloehner period were not in the basin having their full consciousness, while in the air pressure chamber each death case cannot be considered as an accident, but as a willful murder.
However, it was different when Rascher personally took over these experiments. At that time a large number of the persons involved were kept in the water for so long a time until they were dead.
Q. Now, witness, you have identified the defendant Weltz in the defendant dock. On what occasion did you meet Weltz?
A. I met Weltz in Munich. I saw him there once. According to my recollection it was in Luftgau Department 7, Prinzregenten Strasse No.2, and I saw him speak there to Rascher and at a later date Rascher told me that was Professor Weltz. I remember this incident especially since Rascher often discussed Weltz and his animal experiments which he carried out with reference to freezing matters. I never saw Professor Weltz in Dachau or anywhere in the camp.
Q. Do you know Witness whether Rascher and Weltz exchanged information on freezing problems?
A. I don't know that. I should assume it since Rascher discussed Professor Weltz's experiments, and he certainly must have had some exchange of ideas with Weltz regarding that matter. However, I know of no correspondence with Weltz.
Q. Do you recall the occasion when two Russian officers were experimented upon in the freezing experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you relate that incident to the Tribunal?
A. Yes. It was the worst experiment which was ever carried out. From the bunker two Russian officers were carried out. We were forbidden to speak to them. They arrived in the afternoon at approximately 4 o'clock. Rascher had them undressed and they had to go into the basin in a naked state. Hour after hour passed and when usually after a short time, 60 minutes the freezing would had set in, these two Russians were still conscious even after two hours. All of our appeals ro Rascher asking him to give them an injection was without purpose.
Approximately in the third how one Russian said to the other, ''Comrade, toll that officer, that ho may shoot us." Then the other one replied, "Don't expect any mercy from this Facist dog." Then both shook hands and they said, "Goodbye, Comrade." And how can one imagine that we inmates also had to bo witnesses of such a dcat and could do nothing against it, then you can really estimate how terrible it is to be condemned to work in such an experimental station. After these words, which were translated to Russian by a young Pole in a somewhat diffe form, Rascher went back into his office. The young Polo immediately tried to give them an anesthetic with chloroform, but Rascher returned immediate He threatened us with a pistol, and he said "Don'.t dare interfere and app; those victims." The experiment lastet at least five hours until death set Both corpses were sent to Munich for autopsy in the Schwabisches Hospital there.
Q. Witness, how long did it normally take to kill a person in these from experiments?
A. The length of the experiment varied, according to the individual case It always varied considering the fact whether the subject was clothed or clothed. If his physical construction was weak and if in addition to that I was naked, death often set in already after 80 minutes. But there were a nuber of cases where the experimental subject lived up to three hours, and remained that way in the water until finally death sot in.
THE PRESIDENT: The tribunal will recess until 9:30 tomorrow.
Official Transcript of the American Military" Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany on, December 18, 1946, Justice Beals, presiding.
THE PRESIDENT: The Military 'Tribunal is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will bo order in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will ascertain if the defendants arc present.
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honors, all defendants arc present in court this morning.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note in the minutes the presence of the defendants in Court.
The prosecution may proceed.
WALTER NEFF -- Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION - Continued BY MR. McHANEY: (Counsel for prosecution)
Q. Witness, at the end of the session yesterday we were discussing the freezing experiments, the water freezing experiments, and you had described to the Tribunal the death of the two Russian officers; I would like to ask you a few more questions with respect to those freezing experiments. Mil you describe to the Tribunal the method used for renaming the victims of the freezing experiments?
A. During that period when Rascher and Holzhoehner were there the rewarming at tine beginning was carried cut by massage and partly by means of injections of drugs affecting the heart, and also by moans of rewarming by electrical heaters and partly by means of a warm bath. On each occasion the body temperature was that of the experimental subject. At the end of the Hozloehner period the hot water renaming method was introduced and that was carried, out at the end of the re warming period with the exception of a few special experiments with animal warmth. For this warmth about 10 women from the concentration camp at Ravensbrueck were ordered to report to Dachau and were forced to press themselves naked against the body of the frozen person in order to rewarm him in that manner.