DR. VORWERK: Then I will consider the suggestion of the President acceptable.
MR. HARDY: Now is it my understanding, your Honors, you want the interpreters to read the German and translate it here into the record?
THE PRESIDENT: I don't think that is necessary. I think if the counsel for the prosecution has the entire document translated into English and stencils are cut and counsel receives a mimeographed copy, counsel for the prosecution may now examine the witness as to the portion of the document which he desires. I can see no reason for an objection. It will do no harm to the defendant. You see that this document will be furnished in a completed form to the defense counsel as soon as possible.
MR. HARDY: In order to do that I request of the Secretary General that the Prosecution be permitted to retain this document Exhibit 44 in it's possession until we may check it for safe-keeping.
THE PRESIDENT: I assume that the document will be available in its complete form by Monday?
MR. HARDY: I hope so.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Now, Dr. Romberg, you have stated here that Mr. Rascher exhibited to you a letter at this conference in Munich, concerning the fact that Himmler ordered these experimental subjects must be volunteers. Now I want to read you this portion of this document, which incited this alleged Himmler letter. I will start with the third paragraph of the German which reads as follows:
"For the time being I have been assigned to the Luftgaukommando VII, Munich, for a medical course. During this course, where researches on high altitude flights play a prominent part (determined by the somewhat higher ceiling of the English fighter planes), considerable regret was expressed at the fact that no tests with human material had yet been possible for us, as such experiments are very dangerous and nobody volunteers for them.
I put, therefore, the serious question: can you make available two or three professional criminals for these experiments? The experiments are made at permanent Luftwaffe Testing Station for Altitude Research, Munich. The experiments, from which the subjects can, of course, die would take place with my cooperation. They are essential for researches on high altitude flight and cannot be carried out, as has been tried with monkeys, who offer entirely different test-conditions. I have had a very confidential talk with a representative of the air forces surgeon who makes these experiments. He is also of the opinion that the question could only be solved by experiments on human persons."
And then the signature of Rascher appears on the document. Now, do you still maintain that after receiving that letter Himmler says you will use volunteers?
A. In my opinion there is very Little connection. This letter is very old. It is dated 15 May, 1941. It obviously records Rascher's first ideas in this direction about experiments. It says, for example, that no experiments could be performed with human beings, yet, and there is proof against this in the work done in our institutes, where many doctors and their associates volunteered for experiments up to at least 17 kilometers, but it is much higher than the ceiling of the fighter planes presently in use mentioned here.
Q. Now, Dr. Ruff, states that Dr. Weltz and all of these people arrived at that conclusion, they wished to experiment on the Dachau concentration camp inmates early in 1941.
Now isn't this the beginning?
A. That they wanted such experiments in 1941? No, nothing was said about that?
Q. No this is the beginning. Now they are just starting and ask Himmler to find criminals for these experiments simply because nobody will volunteer for them. In other words, if they could have got volunteers they wouldn't have had to resort to Dachau concentration camp inmates, very simple.
A. Not I asked Himmler, but Rascher asked Himmler.
Q That is right. That is what I am talking about, Rascher asked Himmler?
A. And what he says here is incorrect in many respect He says no experiments have been performed, that is not true, and the suggestion to use feeble minded people which he makes is absolutely worthless. Dr. Ruff has already spoken about that.
Q. Now let's go to the next letter in that document book. You may return that document. It is on page 54 of the document book 2. Unfortunately this document doesn't contain a date. However it states:
"Dear Dr. Rascher:
Shortly before flying to Oslo, the Reichsfuehrer SS gave me your letter of 15 May 1941, for partial reply.
"I can inform you that prisoners will, of course, be gladly made available for the high flight researches. I have informed the Chief of the Security Police of this agreement of the Reichsfuehrer fuehrer SS, and requested that the competent official be instructed to get in touch with you."
That is initialed Rudolf Brandt. Now this is the letter which gave Mr. Rascher the authority to use concentration camp inmates, is it not? Isn't it authority to use prisoners for the experiments, and that the particulars will be outlined by the Chief of the Security Police, doesn't it say that?
A. That is an agreement of the Reichsfuehrer to this first suggestion of Rascher of May, 1941, but no details are set forth.
Q. That is right. It is an agreement to allow Rascher to experiment at Dachau or at any concentration camp, and to get prisoners there from, because of the fact Rascher stated in the letter which incited this answer that he couldn't get volunteers for such a program, isn't that what these two letters convey to us?
A. Dr. Rascher had to deal further with this problem. There was no doubt further correspondence.
Q. But you don't know that, do you? You don't know that? You are assuming that?
A. No, I don't know what correspondence there was.
Q. Your only answer to it is an imagineable letter from Himmler stating they must have volunteers, isn't that it?
A. I do not see that. I stated there was a letter from Himmler.
Q. We don't have it here. I just assume if there was such a letter we would have it here. We have most of them talking about selecting and setting aside experimental subjects, and Himmler then in that letter from Rudolf Brandt and his other letters talked about persons who were condemned to death, if he successfully lived through the experiment, or whereas he was recalled to life, he may be pardoned to the concentration camp for life, yet in all of these letters Mr. Himmler never mentions that they must be volunteers.
This is not present in a one of the documents in this case.
A. There aren't very many letters on it. This letter for example says nothing about pardoning, and Himmler mentioned that in a latter.
Q And perhaps that is the first time no mentioned it. I don't think we should quibble about that any more. Let's go on to another subject.
Now concerning the low pressure chamber, wnen Ruff sent this low pressure chamber from his institute in Dachau, did you accompany the drivers from Berlin to Munich with the chamber?
A. Whether I went with them? No.
Q After the chamber arrived in Dachau, according to the testimony of Neff, I believe, you as isted in assembling the chamber so that it would be in its proper form and useable, is that correct?
A. After the chamber arrived in Dachau, I went out to Dachau together with Rascher and Rascher gave the instructions what had to be done, an electric connection had to be laid and what else was necessary to use the chamber.
Q Well, did you arrive at the same time the chamber arrived or did you arrive at some later date?
A. I arrived in Dachau with Rascher when the chamber was already there.
Q Well now, to clarify things, we want to get these things straight in mind. When did the experiments begin?
A. The first beginning was actually on the 22nd and 23rd of February.
Q When did yo. mame up your mind that was the dace when the experiments began?
A. They were supposed to begin on that day but I don't know whether any experiments were actually carried but on that day. At any rate they were stopped almost immediately.
Q. To were there on the 22nd of February, you said that on direct examination, if you remember?
A. Yes, I was there on the 22nd or the 23rd, yes.
Q. When did you suddenly discover you were at Dachau on the 22nd day of February? When did you remember that, or have you always remembered you were in Dachau on the 22nd day of February?
A. No, I just remembered that and here when Neff in his examination told about this, that we watched is birthday table, then I remembered that faot, and also I know I must have been there on that day and the next day because I can remember the birthday table.
Q Well didn't you make an attempt here to impeach the credibility of Walter Neff in stating you were not in Dachau on February 22nd? Defense counsel here made an issue of that, that you were not there, and now do you decide that the testimony of Walter Neff was quite credible?
A. My defense counsel didn't do that. I believe that was Dr. Sauter.
Q That is correct. It was Dr. Sauter, and I will read it to you, Page 357 of the record: "Q (By Dr. Sauter) I should like to put something else to you. Dr. Romberg, will tell you under oath that he on the 22nd of February, 1942, the date you mentioned yesterday, was not present, and he knows that exactly for the following reason, and I am telling you this in order to enable you to refresh your memory. The family Romberg had expected the birth of a child on the 9th of March, and for that reason Dr. Romberg stayed at home until the 9th of March with his wife, and it was only on the 10th of March 1942 that he went to Dachau." Now, Dr. Sauter is an honorable man. You told him under oath that you were never there at that time. What made you change your mind?
A Of course, I never told Dr. Sauter that I would testify under oath that on the 22nd of February I was not in Dachau. I only told Ruff I know very well that I was in Berlin on the 9th of March because I was expecting the birth of the child at that time. That Dr. Sauter interpreted that, that because I know for sure that I was in Berlin on the 9th of March I must not have been in Dachau on the 22nd of February, I had nothing to do with that.
Q. I don't want to get into a discussion of whether or not you misled Dr. Sauter, but he seemed to be quite emphatic about the fact that you would testify under oath, and I would be willing to consider that Dr, Sauter thought that, too. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't think Dr. Sauter would say such a thing unless you had either told him or unless he reasonably believed that that was what you told Ruff. Be that as it may, we will go on. On February 22, 1942, the experiments began; is that correct?
A. I can't tell you exactly whether any experiments were performed or not. That was a Sunday. Probably we didn't do any work on that day, but we broke off the experiments immediately, and postponed them until the beginning of March.
Q. Until the beginning of March. Now, how many series of experiments did you have? Four, wasn't it? Four series, so to speak? You had four different copies in your report?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did it take you to complete each series of experiments?
A. I can't say exactly in detail. Sometimes they were going on at the same time, not one after the other, but they were carried out parallel. Until all four series were concluded, it took until about the 19th or 20th of May.
Q. Now, when did the first death occur?
A. That must have been the end of April.
Q. That was the end of April? End of April. Then almost immediately thereafter you returned to Berlin, didn't you, after that death episode?
A. Yes.
Q. And how long did you remain in Berlin?
A. I didn't stay long at first. I went back again, as far as I recall, and then there was the incident with the barometer, so that...
Q. Now, just a moment. We will get to that. After you went to Berlin the first time, that is, after the death, the death happened about the end of April, then you went to Berlin. Then when you returned, as I understand it, you witnessed another one or two deaths, is that right? That was before the barometer incident; is that right?
A. No, the barometer incident must have been right after I returned from Berlin after Dachau.
Q. The barometer incident was after you returned to Dachau, that is, after the first death. That is the barometer incident. All right. Now, after the barometer incident, that must have been now almost the first of May, wasn't it? The barometer incident? You must have stayed in Berlin a week or better.
A. It took quite some while to have the barometer repaired.
Q. How long did you stay in Berlin after the first death and until the time you returned and found the barometer broken?
A. Only a few days.
Q. Well, how many days? Can't you be a little more specific, two, three, four, five, six?
A. After I returned from reporting the death, perhaps four, five days.
Q. All right. Four, five days. That takes you nearly to the first of May when the barometer was broken, is that right? Almost the first of May.
A. It could be about that time.
Q. And now when did the second and third death occur?
A. That was later, after I came back with the repaired barometer.
Q. How long did it take to secure the barometer? About two weeks?
A. Of course, I don't know exactly. I don't think it took quite two weeks. It wouldn't have taken that long.
Q. Well, we will say it took about a week. That will bring us up to the 7th of May, wouldn't it? Then the two deaths occurred after you got back from Berlin with the barometer, isn't that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And they occurred how long after thAt time? When you came back with the barometer, I assume you used the pressure chamber before Rascher did. I assume you carried on some of your work before Rascher did, and then the two deaths occurred. Now, it must have been a period of a week or two weeks, or something like that, wasn't it?
A I am sure that after I came back with the barometer I performed sons experiments. I was trying to get our experiments finished.
Q. Well now then how long before the completion of your experiments did the deaths occur? The two deaths.
A. About a week before the end of the experiments.
Q. About a week. You are crowding that in pretty closely now. Think hard. About a week, is that right? The death didn't occur almost a month before the conclusion of the experiments, did it?
A. No, that is about right for the first death.
Q. Alright,. Then, on the 20th Day of May the pressure chamber left Dachau and went back to Berlin, is that what you wish to tell us?
A. Yes.
Q. It did. Well, now, after you got the pressure chamber back at Berlin were you there when it got back to Berlin?
A. Yes, I was in Berlin, too.
Q. How badly smashed up was it when it got back to Berlin, or was it in good order?
A. When it came back to Berlin there was nothing broken.
Q. It was in usable form?
A. Yes.
Q. Now we are going into Mr. Neff's testimony. Do you recall that Mr. Neff stated that he sabotaged the chamber at Dachau? Do you recall that?
A. Yes, I remember that.
Q. And now you come along and state that the barometer was broken when you returned from Berlin, which more or less corroborates the testimony of Mr. Neff that the chamber had been damaged, doesn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Then Mr. Neff stated that you went to Berlin to got spare parts to repair the barometer, or the pressure chamber, and that it took you nearly two weeks, he stated, to get the parts, isn't that right? That is what Neff told us.
A. Yes, that is about what he said.
Q. Then by that token he said that was the reason why experiments were still going on in the month of June, isn't that right?
A. Yes, He even said that they lasted till the beginning of July.
Q. That's right. Well now, here we have a strange thing. Defendant Ruff Document Book, this is Exhibit 10, Document No. 6, in the Document Book Ruff No. 1, which is the affidavit of Dr. Max Matthes. On page 22 of the Ruff Document Book, the second paragraph, Dr. Matthes says as follows: "Only at the time of my conversations with Dr. Romberg, did I also learn that a low pressure chamber had come back from Dachau. According to my recollection, the low pressure chamber must have come back to the Institute in May, 1942. I can remember the date because after the return of the low pressure chamber I was ordered by Dr. Ruff to take a trip to Cologne in order to procure spare parts. I made this trip, and on that occasion I was in my home town of Bonn. That was in the time from 1 June to 10 June, 1942, so that the low pressure chamber must have been returned to the Institute in May, 1942." Now, here is a representative of Ruff's getting spare parts between the dates 1 June and 10 June to repair a low pressure chamber, and you recall that Mr. Neff said that he sabotaged the chamber in the latter part of May, and that Dr. Rosenberg, was two weeks getting the spare parts to return to Dachau to repair said chamber and that he returned about the middle of June. Now, isn't this coincidental, Doctor?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. It certainly is, isn't it?
A. But I think I can explain it. The barometer was repaired in Berlin by the Kutz firm which repaired barometers and which had supplied the barometer in the first place. And Matthes' trip to Bonn -
Q. To Cologne. He was in Bonn, his home -
A. Yes, Bonn was his home town. His trip to Cologne had nothing to do with the repair of the barometer. If I remember correctly, Ruff would probably have known this better -- the firm which undo the pumps was located in Cologne, pumps for low pressure chambers.
Q. What were you getting spare parts for if the low pressure chancer was in good condition when you brought it back to Berlin? What did you need parts for at that time? That was an unnecessary trip to take a man from his home town and send him all the way to Cologne to get parts when they weren't needed.
A. The parts were needed. I do not know .....
Q. You stated here just a minute ago that the chamber was in good condition. Now, let's make up our minds, Doctor.
A. I don't have to make up my mind. The pumps which Matthes picked up in Cologne -- I don't even know whether they were for this low pressure chamber or whether they were needed for one of the other mobile low pressure chamber which were also in operation. This work book of Fohlmeister which was submitted here, it shows that there were several low pressure chambers in Berlin. That book mentions a low pressure chamber at the time when the other chamber was at Dachau. It was still under construction and the pumps were probably for this ether chamber. If you have the book there -- that work book -- you can see that clearly.
Q. Well now, let's discuss another section of this low pressure chamber transfer. Who gave you the authority, and Ruff the authority to remove the low pressure chamber from Dachau to Berlin on the 20th day of May, 1942?
A. Who authorized Ruff?
Q. Yes.
A. Probably that was done with the medical Inspectorate just like the transfer down to Dachau, in order to have travel orders. In this case, it was a little different because it was sent by railroad.
Q. That's right. He couldn't remove it without authority from above, could he? At least, that's what he tells us.
A. Take it out of Dachau?
Q. Yes.
Q. You didn't need permission from above, meaning from the Luftwaffe, so much as permission from Himmler and Rascher particularly, to get it out of Dachau.
Q. Well, you mean to say that Dr. Ruff could have removed the low pressure chamber from Dachau at any time he so saw fit?
A. No, he certainly couldn't.
Q. That's right. That's what he says. He couldn't.
A. Yes.
Q. Well now, let's look at Mr. Milch's letter on page 77 of Document Book Number 2. This happens to be dated the 20th of May, 1942. It is Document 343A-PS, Page 77 of the English. Now let's read this:
"Dear Wolffy:"
(It is addressed to SS-Obergruppenfuehror Karl Wolff from Field Marshal Milch.)
"In reference to your telegram of 12 May, our medical inspector reports to me that the altitude experiments carried out by the SS and Luftwaffe at Dachau have been finished. Any continuation of these experiments seems essentially unreasonable. However, the carrying out of experiments of some other kind, in regard to perils at high seas, would be important. These have been prepared in immediate agreement with the proper offices; Oberstabsarzt Weltz will be charged with the execution and Stabsarzt Rascher will be made available until further order in addition to his duties within the Medical Corps of the Luftwaffe. A change of these measures does not appear necessary, and an enlargement of the task is not considered pressing at this time.
"The low-pressure chamber will not be needed for these low-temperature experiments. It is urgently needed at another place and therefore can no longer remain in Dachau.
"I convey the special thanks.....etc."
Signed "Milch".
Now, here on the 20th of May, "Milch is just beginning to discuss the fact that it should no longer remain in Dachau. He thinks it is still in Dachau, doesn't he? You haven't received orders to remove it yet. How did you remove it? Let's turn to the next letter, Doctor.
A. I removed the chamber by saying to Rascher, who wanted to carry on the experiments, "Rascher, there's no point in your trying to keep the chamber here any longer.
You will only succeed in doing so for two or three weeks, at the most. It will be better if we stop with the chamber now and perform new experiments later", and Rascher agreed to this. I called Ruff up and said, "Ruff, I've managed it. We can take tie chamber away." Ruff sent the drivers down and the chamber was taken out of Dachau, and that's how it happened.
Q. Well now, here we have another letter, fortunately, dated 4 June 1942, on page 78, Document Book Number 2, and this is from Milch to Hippke. It reads as follows:
"According to the agreement with the Reichsfuehrer SS the lowpressure air chamber for experiments in the neighborhood of Munich is still to be available for two months longer.
"Moreover, the Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher is, in addition to his tests in the Luftwaffe, to be on duty for the present for the purposes of the Reichsfuehrer SS.
"Heil Hitler, Yours, Milch."
He sent a copy to SS Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff.
Now, doesn't it appear that Walter Neff's memory is much better than yours?
A. No, I know very well that the chamber was already gone at that time; that the high altitude experiments had been concluded. That is, in part, clear from the letter which Rascher himself wrote to Hippke.
Q. Let's turn to the next letter, NO.284., on page 79. Just turn the page:
"Dear Dr. Rascher:
"Your letter of 5 June 1942..."
Now we're up to the 5th of June, and, according to these documents, the chamber is still there.
"Your letter of 5 June 1942, to Reichsfuehrer-SS was handed SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff, Chief of Reichsfuehrer-SS Personal Staff, for further action, on whose behalf I wish to inform you that in keeping with an order of Field Marshal Milch the low-pressure chamber is to remain available an additional two months for experiments.
Field Marshal Milch also ordered that in addition to your experiments for the Luftwaffe, also you are to continue working until further notice for the purposes of Reichsfuehrer-SS."
Now, according to this letter -- not according to your opinion, but according to this letter, the chamber is still at Dachau, isn't it?
A. No, I don't see that. The letter is nothing but......
Q. Well, we'll let the Tribunal decide. Tell me.....
A. May I say something?
Q. Certainly. Go ahead.
A. This letter is merely one to pass on the letter from Milch which has just been read. That is, the letter of the 4th of June, Exhibit 36.
Q. Right.
A. And Milch writes that the chamber is to stay for two more months.
Q. That's right.
A. Whether Milch, when he wrote this letter, actually knew that the experiments had already been stopped and wrote this letter nevertheless; or whether he didn't know it, I can't judge.
Q. Yes, but you couldn't remove this chamber -- either you or Ruff -- without the permission of Hippke or Milch. Don't forget that. You couldn't remove it. You didn't have the authority to take it out of there after you had one death occur -- to step these experiments of Rascher. You had to leave it there because you would need a superior order. Now, here are, more or less, orders telling you to leave it there for two months, didn't they?
A. The higher orders needed to remove the chamber had to come from Himmler through Rascher. He had to agree to returning the chamber.
Milch himself, or Hippke, as the letter of the 20th of May shows, could say that the chamber was not needed by them. What had to happen happened -- that Rascher approached Milch, through Himmler, and asked to be able to keep it longer and Milch writes, probably knowing that the chamber had already left: "Yes, you can keep it longer." Besides, as far as the breaking off of the experiments is concerned, which according to the appearance of the documents, lasted two months beyond the 4th of June -- that was far into July -- I should like to refer to the letter of Rascher of the 5th of June, 1942, Document No. 283, Exhibit 82. Rascher writes: "A few days ago I was called into Hippke's office for a conference When I told him that the report on all the experiments was not available yet, he did not demand any report." Rascher himself writes on the 13th of June: "A few days ago I saw Hippke", that is, let us say, on the 12th of June, and he also writes "the complete report is not finished", which indicates that the experiments were already finished at that time.
Q. Of course, that can be interpreted that the experiments were not finished and you had to finish them up before you could finish the report. There are two ways of interpreting that, Doctor.
Now, tell me, Doctor Romberg, after the chamber finally did get back to Berlin and the experiments were concluded -- whether it be the time you state or the time that is borne out by the documents and the testimony of Walter Neff -- then, as you have pointed out in your direct examination, Mr. Rascher received an assignment from Himmler later in the year, that is, in the fall or winter of the year, and one of these assignments, you have ably pointed out, was again research with low pressure chamber and in the same field. Now, did Rascher ever get a low pressure chamber again? In late 1942 or 1943?
A. No, he did not.
Q. You have stated that he couldn't get one all over Germany, didn't you? You stated on direct examination that he tried to get one and he couldn't get one?
and he couldn't get one?
A. No, I did not say that. In my direct examination I merely quoted the individual documents showing Rascher's efforts to get a new low pressure chamber.
Q. Well, he didn't get one, did he?
A. To my knowledge and to the knowledge of the Medical Inspectorate which we contacted later, he did not receive any chamber.
Q. Did he get your chamber?
A. Ours? No.
Q. He must have gotten some chamber because he conducted experiments in 1943 with a chamber. Here in the Sievers Diary which is Document No. 538 contained on page 63 of Document Book Number 3, is an entry under date of April 6, 1943, the eighth entry made by Sievers reads as follows:
"Continuation of the low pressure chamber experiments." Now, it appears that he had some sort of chamber down there, doesn't it? Was it yours?
A. What was the date of this entry?
Q. I believe I said the 6th of April 1943, and it is in the Sievers Diary. No need to look at it, Doctor. I quoted it to you.
A. No, I don't have it here anyhow. I just want to say that might have something to do with Document NO-270, Exhibit 110, in Document Book 3, where Rascher tells about his conference with Hippke. Again, he says that he wants to conduct low pressure chamber experiments with me at the same time when he was in Berlin. Anyhow, he went to see Sievers and again told him that he wanted to continue the low pressure chamber experiments, just as he had told Hippke.
Q. Well, let's go on, Doctor. Now, Dr. Romberg, you, and your chief, Dr. Ruff, maintain that all you were interested in was what the title of your official report said: "Rescue from High Altitudes." And that you merely took poeple up end down, quickly, up by explosive decompression, and down by free fall, or parachute and that you were not interested in anything else. Is that right? That was your primary interest - in simple language.
A. That was our primary interest.
Q. Well, now, I want to turn to Document Book 2 again, page 91. This is Document NO-402, your report. This will be on page 16 of the German; not of the Document Book, but of the German document itself.
Now, on page 16 of the original, the lost paragraph on the page, you say there in the report -- and by the way I might ask you - that was your signature on the report, was it not?
A. Yes.
Q. You say there: "In spite of the relatively large number of experiments, the actual cause of the severe mental disturbances and bodily failures (paralysis, blindness, etc.) attendant upon posthypoxemic twilight state remains somewhat of a riddle." What's the riddle?
A. One could not say exactly whether these severe failures were caused alone by the lack of oxygen, or whether they might have something to do with the bends disease - caisson disease - or the bends disease.
Q. So, then, you were interested, according to your own report, in that problem of gas or air bubbles. And your friend Rascher obliged, supplied the answer to the riddle, didn't he? He killed a few people for you, right in your presence. You were there. You watched the autopsy. He showed you the bubbles in the brain, in the brain's blood vessels - the bubbles which were caused by the decompression. That was the answer, wasn't it...to the riddle? You thought it was.
A. No. First of all, Rascher was not my friend. And "bends", as quoted here in connection with the decompression which were experienced because this was a well known problem which had often been complained of, and there existed quite a bit of literature, it was known particularly by the Navy in regard to caisson disease... it was not really no new problem. The finding of air bubbles in an autopsy is not in itself an explanation of these failure symptoms. One might be able to determine that in a very careful examination if one could prove air bubbles in a certain center. But, as far as I know that is very difficult or even impossible because air embolism occurs in surgical cases too, for example, if a vein is cut during an operation, it also occurs --
Q. I think we are familiar with all that, Doctor. The point I am trying to bear out is that I am not trying to indicate that you and Ruff made Rascher do this, or made Rascher kill people, but you let him do it, and you were very glad to have the answer to your riddle. You state in your paper that neither you nor Ruff after the murder saw to it that Rascher was indicted far murder, did you? You needed that information, and you have it here in your report.
A. No, that of course is not right. I must object to that strenuously. The observations which Rascher made, which he gives in his interim reports, he never made them public in any way, and never supplied them to the Luftwaffe, to Ruff, or to me in any way.