We did not have to give any report to the Office for Science and Research, and we did not do so.
Q Thank you. I have no further questions.
BY DR. PELCKMANN (Defense Counsel for the defendant Schaefer):
Q Dr. Becker-Freyseng, you have made detailed statements about Holzloehner's lecture at the Nurnberg meeting and about Rascher's comments. Did you talk to the defendant Schaefer about Holzloehner's experiments?
A I do not recall any such conversation.
Q You have discussed the debate between you and the men of the Technical Office about the usefulness of Berkatit. What did Schaefer emphasize during this debate to show how dangerous Berkatit was?
A First of all, I agreed in principle with Mr. Schaefer that the main danger of Berkatit was that it conceals the unpleasant salty bitter taste of sea-water and leads the persons in distress at sea to drink it, but by the failure to change the salt content, the affects are the same as that of untreated water, and that was what Schaefer emphasized.
Q And if we go into the physiological considerations, he probably added that would increase the thirst and the desire to drink, and more and more harmful sea-water would be drunk?
A Yes, I believe I said the same thing yesterday afternoon.
Q. In your examination so far you have said that Christensen in the first discussions prohibited interference in his job; you also said something about a quarrel with a Luftwaffe Officer named Jeworck at the meeting of 19 May. Now, I ask you whether you remember another quarrel which Schaefer told you about?
A. I believe it was between the two meetings of the 20th and the 25th that Schaefer told me that Mr. Schickler, the Referent of Oberstingenieur Christensen, said that he could expect to be prosecuted for sabotage if he continued to oppose Berkatit.
Q. Is it true that on 19 May at this meeting Christensen gave orders about what the Luftwaffe men were to do and say at the meeting on the 20th?
A. I know what you mean. Christensen said, asked, or demanded that the differences within the Luftwaffe should be put in the background on the next day and these differences should not be expressed before the Navy men.
Q. And did you or Schaefer at the meeting on the 20th act on this request of Chrisensen, or were there quarrels in spite of it?
A. I expressed my point of view on the 20th, just as I had on the 19th. There were, of course, debates. The consequence was that Berkatit was not introduced as the Technical Office had ordered, but that the decision was made to depend on new experiments.
Q. Can one say that these quarrels were violent?
A. At least the ones on the 19th were very violent, yes.
Q. But I am asking about the ones on the 20th?
A. They were perfectly clear, anyhow.
Q. Now, the discussion on 25th May you said was carried out during an air raid?
A. Yes.
Q. You said that it was continued in the air-raid shelter?
A. Yes, an air-raid shelter of the Medical Academy to which the research institute belonged and in one room of which the discussion was taking place.
Q. You also said that part of the participants were separated because of circumstance?
A. Yes, I remember that very clearly.
Q. Is it possible, or do you know, whether the Defendant Schaefer remained with the group which primarily continued the discussion or whether he was with one of the groups which was separated from the main participants in the discussion?
A. He was certainly not in the same group as I was, which included my department chief and Professor Eppinger and Professor Heubner.
Q. You said that in the discussions on 19th 20th May no condition for the experiments were settled?
A. Yes, I said that.
Q. Then it is no doubt correct that no experiment or series of experiments to test Wofatit was decided upon here?
A. Yes, that is correct, and I may add that was unnecessary, because no one ever doubted the effectiveness of Wofatit, not even the representatives of the Technical Office.
Q. If later a series of experiments with Wofatit was introduced without Schaefer's knowledge, what was the purpose of this series of experiments?
A. I explained that this morning. For reasons of experimenting a so-called control group had to be conducted which was given normal drinking water. This could have been obtained from any water tap, but since this experiment was being carried out Wofatit was included and the normal water was produced by removing the salt from sea water with Wofatit.
Q. Can you recall whether the inclusion of this Wofatit series was decided upon or at least discussed on 25 May?
A. There was no great amount of discussion about it, certainly, because it was not a question of testing Wofatit.
Q. On 25 May you were with Schaefer at least part of the time?
A. On 25 May, yes.
Q. How long was it until you saw him again after that?
A. A few weeks later, perhaps five weeks.
Q. At least you didn't see him daily or at brief intervals?
A. No, I was normally 50 kilometers south of Berlin; Schaefer had his laboratory in Teltow, I believe, in a different direction from Berlin, and anyone who knows conditions in Berlin in the summer of 1944 knows how difficult it was to get around.
Q. If you say you didn't see him, do you mean you didn't talk to him either by telephone, for instance?
A. I don't recall any conversation after the 25th.
Q. When you saw him again after about a month, can you remember that he asked you what had been done in this matter?
A. I saw Schaefer for the first time after the 25th when Himmler's decision had not yet been received. I remember that.
Q. And what did you tell him in answer to his question?
A. I told him nothing had been decided yet.
Q. Did you say you had heard nothing more about the matter, it seems to be dwindling away to nothing?
A. If Schaefer remembers those words it is possible. I don't remember that at the moment.
Q. Then when did you see or talk to Schaefer again after this conversation?
A. As far as I can recall, it was in the flak tower at the zoo, which I mentioned this morning.
Q. And when was that?
A. That was the middle or end of September 1944, after the experiments were completed.
Q. Dr. Becker-Freyseng, you know the documents which the Prosecution has submitted in Document Book 5 against you and Schaefer; can you tell me which documents Schaefer would have obtained knowledge of through official channels or whether he would have seen any of these documents normally, for instance the minutes signed by Christensen and the letter which Schroeder or you sent to Himmler; you know how business was conducted, and you know Schaefer's position.
A. I cannot imagine Schaefer having known of any of these documents.
DR. PELCKMANN: Thank you.
DR. FRITZ: Fritz, for Rose.
BY DR. FRITZ: In Document Book 3, Witness, of the Prosecution, there is an affidavit of yours, NO 448. In paragraph 5, which is on page 7 of the Document Book, you say among other things: "Professor Rose was perhaps the most significant factor in the hygienic service of the Luftwaffe," are those your own words, or was that formulation put into your mouth by the interrogator?
A. In my direct examination I have already said that the affidavit was put to me in the English language for signature; so far as I can remember today I think that the only word in that sentence that originated from me is the word "perhaps".
Q. However, Witness, you signed this version; would you please express this more precisely to the Tribunal; did you wish that to mean that Professor Rose had the most to say in this field, in other words, that he had the greatest power to issue orders, or just what did you mean to say?
A. No, I did not intend it to be so interpreted, because there is nothing in this sentence that indicates anything of this sort. I thought I could have signed this sentence having introduced the word "perhaps" into it, because, purely scientifically speaking, I consider him a highly qualified bacteriologist and hygienist.
Q. Then at least you did not want to say in this sentence that he had executive powers, or that proposals if he made them were binding for the persons without executive power?
A. First of all there is nothing to that effect in this sentence, and actually as a member of the office of the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate I knew very well that the suggestions made by the consultant were in no way binding on our departmental chief, or on us.
Q. Now, another matter; you testified that the research assignments from the autumn of 1944 on were not worked on in your Referat, but in the Department of Science and Research and the Military Medical Academy?
A. Perhaps I may correct you right away. They were taken care of by the training or lecture group of that same academy.
Q. Well, after this organization changed, who worked on these assignments? This is of particular interest in Professor Rose's case, because he was one of the consulting specialists; do you know whether he concerned himself with these research assignments.
A. Let me point out to you Dr. Hans Erich Halbach's affidavit, which was put in yesterday as a Becker-Freyseng exhibit, the number of which I do not remember, in which he says that he took over the future work of these assignments in the lecture group at the aforementioned academy.
Q. No further questions.
BY DR. STEINBAUER: (Counsel for Dr. Beiglboeck)
Q. My dear Dr. Becker-Freyseng, from your testimony I have observed that you have studied the Prosecution documents very carefully; does anything occur to you when you consider Dr. Beiglboeck's professional title?
A. His professional title?
Q. Yes, that is what I mean. He is not called a University Professor or an Oberarzt, but what was he called?
A. You mean his title "consulting physician"?
Q. Yes, that is what I mean; was he one?
A. No, he was not.
Q. Did you ever see him at a conference or meeting of consulting physicians?
A. I only attended one such conference, the one in May of 1944 at Hohenlychen.
Q. Do you know whether Dr. Beiglboeck ever attended such a conference?
A. I never heard anything to that effect, at any rate I did not see him in 1944.
Q. What was Dr. Beiglboeck's rank?
A. Rank?
Q. Rank!
A. At the beginning of June, when we first saw him, he was an Oberarzt and I believe later he became a Stabsarzt.
Q. Now, let us turn to the experiments; did Dr. Beiglboeck attend any of the conferences that are mentioned in document book 5?
A. No.
Q. Did he participate in the meeting of the 25th of May in particular?
A. No.
Q. Now, another question; you said that the experiments were to be supervised by a specialist, namely Dr. Eppinger; do you know whether Dr. Eppinger really carried out this supervision, whether he was in Dachau or not?
A. I believe I can remember for certain that Dr. Beiglboeck, after he returned from the experiments when they were over at Travisio, said that Dr. Eppinger had been in Dachau.
Q. Now we come to the experiments themselves; you received the assignment to have these experiments carried out?
A. Yes.
Q. Dr. Beiglboeck was at that time in Italy; what did you do to get the experiments started; did you telephone to Italy to get him; did you write to him or telegraph to him; what did you do?
A. If I am to explain that to you in detail, I must say the following: I dictated a short memorandum through our Personnel Officer in the office --
Q. No, I don't want to slow up the proceedings; how was Beiglboeck informed?
A. He received a written communication from the Office of the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate, stating that he should report to the Office as soon as possible.
Q. The purpose for which he had to report was not told to him; is that right?
A. No, it was not.
Q. Now he reported to you. You said this morning that neither officially nor unofficially had you previously known Dr. Beiglboeck; thus Beiglboeck did not know what your political opinions were; you could have been an informer, he had to he careful; is that not so?
A. Of course.
Q. Nevertheless, when you explained these experiments to him, he said, "I don't want to go to Dachau to carry out experiments there?"
A. Yes, I said that this morning in my direct examination.
Q. Then you said this morning that he proposed that the experiments should not be carried out in Dachau hut elsewhere?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you refused that?
A. You are exaggerating my authority, Dr. Steinbauer.
Q. No, I am not doing that. I just wanted to ascertain that for another reason.
A. For personal reasons he wanted the location to be changed. I told Beiglboeck that I would gladly agree, but I was sure he would not he successful, and I mentioned such and such a reason.
Q. Dr. Becker-Freyseng, don't misunderstand me. I don't want to incriminate you in any way, but want to bring out the truth here. I simply say that for one reason or another you refused the proposal that Beiglboeck made that the experiments be transferred elsewhere?
A. Yes, that is so.
Q. Now let me ask you a supplemental question to this; did he not make another proposal to you?
A. Yes, he made another proposal, which unfortunately came to nothing. He told me that before he had become the director of the Internal Department of the Luftwaffe hospital at Travisio had been the same in Brunswick, and since the hospital in Brunswick had very good laboratories, it should be possible to carry out the experiments there.
Q. Very good. Now, let me remind you of something else; did not Dr. Beiglboeck make even another proposal; did he not say, "Referent, I have still another suggestion to make?"
Now you just reflect on this---maybe I can help you a little. Did he not say to you, "I am expanding the hospital at Travisio and I have an assistant there who could very well carry out the sea water experiments there?" Wasn't that so?
A. Yes, he suggested that his representative in Travisio should carry out the experiments there also.
Q. And did you not say, Dr. Becker-Freyseng, "Unfortunately, Dr. Beiglboeck, that won't work because Himmler is in the way?"
A. I told him that the proposal did not originate with us; it had already been decided that Beiglboeck should be used and this had already been reported to Himmler.
Q. Now, in naming Himmler you meant to say that the proposal was impossible.
A. I wanted to say that from a military point of view the whole situation was settled and there was no purpose in trying to make a lot of changes because it was too late.
Q. Now, we won't talk about the experiments themselves as we have already gone into them at great length. Now, Beiglboeck and Becker-Freyseng meet; did he tell you anything about what things were like in the concentration camp; what contacts he had there; what the SS was like, etc.?
A. He told me two things that rather surprised me. First, I had told Beiglboeck that he would probably find a very well equipped laboratory there. I did not know much about it in detail, but it was the general belief that the SS equipment was good. When Beiglboeck returned, he told me that all he had had was an empty room there and all the equipment, retorts, and what not that he needed for the experiment, he had to provide for himself.
The second thing that surprised me concerned his relationship to his colleagues who were present and who were SS officers. This relationship was so poor that Beiglboeck was obliged to eat not in the SS officer's mess hall, but outside the camp somewhere in the town of Dachau.
Q. Now, after the experiments were concluded, didn't you tell Beiglboeck that you would help him to get a job as a consultant and he refused to accept that?
A. Dr. Wilhelm Meister, one of the Slovakian resistance movement men, was murdered and thus his position was free. I asked Beiglboeck whether he would like me to speak to my department chief and ask for the position for him, since it was open. Beiglboeck refused that because he preferred to remain as the internal director in his hospital.
Q. No further question.
THE PRESIDENT: If there are no further questions by the defense counsel, the Prosecution may cross-examine the witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q. May it please the Tribunal, Dr. Becker Freyseng in the course of your direct examination you stated in regard to your position in so far as the experiments on human beings are concerned that you held three points and set forth three points which must be fulfilled prior to experimentation on human beings. As I understand it, point No. 1 was that the experiment must be necessary, that is, there is no other solution; point No. 2, the experiment must also have been well prepared and all research along those lines through animal experimentation has been exhausted, and you had perhaps model experiments and experiments on the physician himself; and, No. 3, you stated medical actions. Would you kindly explain to me just what you meant by point No. 3?
A. I think my point No. 3 was that the experiments should be carried out in strict accordance with regular medical procedure.
Q. Does the element of consent or the voluntary nature of the subject come into play?
A. It does come into play and let me point out to you that when my counsel asked me this question he explicitly said that in my answer I should leave the question of the voluntary consent of experimental subjects altogether out of my answer, and, therefore, I did not say anything at that time regarding the voluntary nature of the subjects. Later, however, I did go into the question of their consent and said that I was convinced that prisoners could also be used as voluntary subjects.
Q. Well then if I understand you correctly the ethical conditions under which you would act would be: 1, that the experiment must be necessary, that there is no other solution; No. 2, that it was well prepared through animal experimentation, model experiments, and selfexperiments; and No. 3, that it was under the so-called medical action rule; and No. 4, the subjects must be volunteers?
A. Those are the conditions under which I consider the experimentation justified.
Q. Who do you feel may volunteer for experiments?
A. Anyone in full possession of his senses.
Q. Well, do you think somewhat along the same lines as Professor Rose, that perhaps only medical students or physicians should volunteer for experimentation?
A. No, it seems to me that any mentally normal person who can be told what the nature of the experiment is.
Q. Well then by that token it must be necessary for the physician to warn the experimental subject about the hazards of the experiments, is that true?
A. I should like to say that it should at least be explained to him.
Q. Then point No. 5 under Becker Freyseng No. 1 is that the physician should advise the experimental subjects?
A. Let me point out that I had already included this condition under point 3 of my previous principles when answering questions put me by Judge Sebring.
Q. Well now that we have your ethical principles clearly in mind, do you feel that every experiment which you instigated in the past followed these principles, that every experiment instigated by you in the past followed these principles?
A. Since I instigated only one, namely, the sea water experiment, I am convinced that what was done by me corresponds to the principles I just set forth.
Q. Do you feel that any experimental plan that did not comply with the ethical principles would be criminal?
A. You asked whether I believed any other experimental plan that did not meet the principle I set forth would be criminal -- is that what you asked?
Q. That is what I asked, yes.
A. That I can't say because I know nothing of my own knowledge of the plans for the other experiments.
Q. Well, do you think it would be unethical?
Q. Any experiment which did not meet the regulations as set forth by you here on this witness stand?
A. I cant answer that question either because to do so I should have to know all of the conditions and I don't know them.
Q. Dr. Becker Freyseng, as I understand it, in 1941 you assumed this position as Assistant Referent in the Referat for Aviation Medicine in the Medical Department of the Chief of the Medical Services of the Luftwaffe, is that correct?
A. In August 1941 I became an Assistant Referent in the Referat for Aviation Medicine in the Office of the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate, yes.
Q. How many Assistant Referents were there?
A. I said yesterday that only a few of the Referats had Assistant Referents. I believe that there were perhaps two other Referents -in other Referats, not in the Referat for Aviation on Medicine -- which had assistant Referents.
Q. What was the total number of personnel in the Referat for Aviation Medicine?
A. I think I told you that yesterday in some detail. Besides Professor Anthony and myself there was a clerk and sometimes there was a soldier to help around the office, and I believe during Dr. Anthony's time there was a second female helper instead of a soldier.
Q. Then there were never more than four people in the Referat for Aviation Medicine.
A. That is right.
Q. And only two had authority, that is the Referent and the Assistant Referent.
A. That is right.
Q. Where was the office of the Referat for Aviation Medicine located?
A. Until August 1943 it was in a building of the Tempelhof Airdrome and from 1943 on it was in the barracks camp of Saalow near Zossen, about 50 kilometers from Berlin.
Q. Where was the Office of the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe, namely, Hippke, and later Schroeder?
A. That was until 1943 in Berlin in the same building in the Tempelhof Airdrome, and from 1943 on it was also in the barracks camp Saalow, near Zossen.
Q. Physically how far were the offices of the Referent for Aviation Medicine from the Office of the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe?
A. In Berlin, Hippke's office was on the second floor and our office was on the third floor in the same part of the same building, and in the barracks camp at Saalow the barracks in which the various offices were perhaps fifty to eighty meters apart.
Q. Well now in May 1944 you became the Referent in the Referat for Aviation Medicine, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So during the time at issue in this trial we had two Referents from August 1941 on Anthony was the Referent in the Referat for Aviation Medicine up until May 1944, and after that time you became Referent?
A. Yes, the change took place about the 15 May 1944.
Q. Were the duties of the Referent in the Referat for Aviation Medicine limited to merely the phere of aviation medicine?
A. I believe I already described that at great length. My real duties were limited to the field of aviation medicine.
Q. Did you have any other fields in which you were active?
A. Yesterday I said that from July on of 1944, that is, I was also medical Referent with the Research Leadership of the Air Ministry, and until the beginning of 1944 I carried on research of my own in the Medical Research Institute. I cannot recall any other duties at the moment.
Q Well now didn't, as a matter of fact, all assignments pass through your office when you were Referent to Schroeder -- all research assignments?
A I described that at great length. I said that the Referat for Aviation Medicine, aside from its 95% aviation assignments, also did purely formal work for the rest of the research assignments, even if not aviation medical assignments or in other fields.
Q Well, then could it be construed that the office you held was more or less a clearing house for all research assignments?
A Could you perhaps explain what you mean by the expression clearing house?
Q Now most of these assignments had to have allocations, various materials, had to receive subsidies, money, have regulations to be abided by. Now, was your office the office wherein these matters were taken care of for all research assignments of the Luftwaffe?
A I had thought that I had discussed this so exhaustively already that I would not have to go into it again. However, -----
Q Dr. Becker-Freyseng, before you continue I want to tell you that my reason for asking you this is that perhaps in your direct examination you were too elaborate, so elaborate that it became very confusing to me and I am trying to straighten myself out now. So, if you will be brief and answer my questions briefly perhaps I can understand you more clearly.
A I shall be only too happy to try to.
A In our office there were always roughly one hundred current assignments at one time, 95 of themn concerning the field of aviation medicine. These assignments were taken care of by my Referat formally, so far as their contents were concerned. I took care of the formal and organizational aspects of the other 5 assignments of this hundred. You mentioned funds necessary. Perhaps I should tell you that -
Q We will get to that later, Doctor, when going into that point. Then, in brief, all research assignments made by the Luftwaffe came through the office of Becker-Freyseng, irrespective of whether or not they dealt with aviation medicine?
A Yes, after I became Referent in 1944 they all went through my Referat, that is right.
Q Thank you, Doctor. Now, during the course of Anthony's term as Referent, if I understand you correctly, he did not have the authority to issue orders; is that correct?
A That is so. No Referent had the right to issue orders.
Q Well now, did you have the authority to issue orders when you became Referent?
A No more than any other Referent. None of the Referents had the authority to issue orders.
Q Well, now, suppose you were interested in some particular research and in order to initiate a program you must have orders so that you could have Haagen or any one of your consultants at various universities who worked on a particular problem commence their work, who would issue that order?
A Research assignments were issued only by the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate himself personally and signed by him, before the first of January 1944 by Hippke, after that by Professor Schroeder.
Q Then, in brief again, a Referent had no authority whatsoever to issue orders, is that correct?
A That's right.
Q Now, you have stated here in direct examination that during Anthony's term as Referent in the Referat for Aviation Medicine you were merely an assistant Referent, that you were not a deputy; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q Then you had no authority to issue instructions to the employees in Anthony's absence, is that correct?
A May I ask what employees you are talking about?
Q Well, the other two employees in your office?
A Well, of course, I could dictate a letter to then or something like that.
Q Suppose Anthony went on an extended trip, how could you carry on the business of the office, would you lock the door of the office then and take a vacation?
A No, above me was my departmental chief who was competent for my department and who gave me my assignments. I had my own room to which the departmental chief sent me the documents I was to work on. But Anthony's room was really locked up, that is so.
Q Has the departmental chief an expert in the field of aviation medicine?
A My two departmental chiefs could be considered specialists in the field of aviation medicine, because the first was Generalarzt Dr. Martius, who had previously been the directing doctor of the German Aviation Sport Association, and consequently he knew about aviation. And the second one was Oberstarzt Dr. Merz, who was himself a good pilot and knew a good deal more about flying than I did, for example.
Q Assume for the moment that Anthony was on a trip and an important problem came up in the field of Aviation Medicine wherein it was necessary for orders to be issued. To whom would you turn?
A It is very easy to answer that question. Such a problem would have come to the office in writing in the normal course of events, at least let us assume so. Then this report or this inquiry, before it reached the Referat, would have been seen by the department chief. Then the department chief would either have reached a decision immediately himself or he would have asked me to find certain documents for him on the basis of which he could make his decision. Or, if this was a field which the department chief knew was within the special field of Anthony's work, then the department chief -- and this often happened when Anthony was on trips would have ordered that efforts be made to reach Anthony by telephone and to put the problem to him. Those are the main possibilities.
Q Being hypothetical again for a moment, assume that Anthony decided that it was necessary to initiate research in the field of high altitude, or rescue from high altitude and he wanted to commission Benzinger in his institute at Rechlin, or Ruff in his institute at Adlershof, or Weltz in his institute at Munich, to conduct research along those lines, who would initiate the research order? Anthony?
A Under no circumstances.
Q Now, doctor, do you have Document Book No. 12 in front of you? That's document No. NO-306 in the typhus experiments Document Book, on page
A I merely have a few documents from that Document Book.
Q This is page 74 of the English, Your Honor. It's document NO-306 that you discussed yesterday, Dr. Becker-Freyseng, wherein you pointed to the last sentence in the letter. This is a letter from Rose to Haagen.
A I have that document here.
Q You pointed to the last sentence in this letter, which states as follows: "It will take some time until 2-F produces its new research order, as Anthony is on a duty trip for several weeks." And you indicated to the Tribunal that this sentence substantiated your position that you were unable to act in Anthony's absence and that you were not by this token his deputy. Now, isn't it apparent from this sentence that Anthony had the authority to issue a research order?
A No, that is not apparent at all.
Q It certainly is, doctor. Read it.
A The sentence reads somewhat differently in the original than from what I just heard, over the earphones. The translation says: "Its new research assignments". However, in the copy I have here it says "Until 2-F can produce the new research order."
MR. HARDY: I won't quibble with you about the translation, because all day yesterday the translators translated the word research order. Whether it be research assignment or research order, that is immaterial.
The assignment or order initiated from Anthony, according to Rose. Now I want you to bear in mind that if you attempt to state Rose didn't know the inner workings of your office, then you must also bear in mind that refutes your argument that you were not a deputy to Anthony, if Rose didn't know what was going on in your office. Isn't it true here from this sentence, from reading this sentence, that Anthony had the authority to issue a research assignment or order?