A That is not to be seen in this sentence at all. Now, let me say regarding the translation, that it is not a question of the translation "research order" or "research assignment", but what you read me before was read to me that "it would be quite a while before 2-F gave out its research assignment", but here it says "until 2-F produces the new research order".
Q That's right. Just what I said, "produces its new research order". I'll ask the interpreters kindly to turn to Document Book #12, the German edition thereof, and read the last sentence as it is in the document book which will be an exact quotation of what I have just read in the English.
Interpreter reads sentence in German.
A That's just what I read, and it doesn't correspond exactly to what I heard from the interpreters before.
Q Now, this states that "it will take 2-F some time to produce its new research order", 2-F being the Referat for Aviation Medicine, and the chief thereof was one Anthony. Now, how could Anthony produce a research order? He didn't have that authority.
A There is nothing here to the effect that Anthony will issue this research order, but only that it will take some time before the order is issued, because so long as Anthony is away the order can't be worked on and, consequently, cannot be put to the departmental chief, or the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate, for signature.
Q Then it is true that all research orders initiate from the Referent's office and that the signature of Schroeder was merely a formality, is that true? Or did Schroeder know the contents of each and every research order?
A It had to be shown to him by the department chief, and I can say again, in this connection, this particular research assignment surely did not initiate from the Referat for Aviation Medicine, but certainly from the Referat for Hygiene, which was interested in such vaccine matters. The assignment went through the Referat for Aviation Medicine that is, through Anthony's office only so that the formal and organizational aspects could of it and prepare it for the signature of the department chief or the chief of the Medical Inspectorate.
Both the Referat for Hygiene and the Referat for Aviation Medicine was subordinate to the same department chief, so that if Anthony, or later I, submitted a research assignment to him that really concerned the Hygiene Referat then, of course, the Hygiene Referat had already oriented him about the matter.
Q Then that is most interesting to me, Doctor. Then I can assume that every research assignment issued in behalf of the Luftwaffe was known to Schroeder. Every detail of it. Because he issued it. It was his order. Nobody else's.
A That is true only after 1 January 1944.
Q That is when he became chief. That is correct. After he became Chief of the Medical Services of the Luftwaffe, Schroeder was personally acquainted with each and every research order that emanated from the Luftwaffe.
AAfter he signed new research assignments, he knew that such an assignment existed, of course, but he could not possibly have known the details of such an assignment because when such an assignment was given that was only the beginning of the research, at which time, as we know, the details are not even known. Otherwise there would be no need to issue a research assignment.
Q Who knew the details?
A Only the scientist himself who worked on the research assignment, and he only knew the details after he had finished the research.
Q Whenever it became necessary to issue a research order, did Professor Schroeder sit down by himself and figure out what order should be issued?
A Certainly not.
Q He took the advice of the various Referats?
A The various Referats or consultants or the commissioned specialists or whoever it might be. That differed from case to case.
Q Then, in essence, the particular research order would have been draw up by the Referant for Schroeder's signature? Is that what you're trying to convey to me?
A The research assignment, for example, in the field of aviation medicine in 1944 was drawn up, dictated by me after the scientist in question had generally made an application and had told me exactly why he wanted to receive a research assignment. This draft of a research assignment I then submitted to my department chief. He either made changes in it or approved it as it was. Under some circumstances, he turned it down immediately. That sometimes happened. Then we had it rewritten and it was put to the chief of staff, and if he was in agreement with it then it went to the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate for the final decision.
Q Perhaps I gained an incorrect impression from the testimony of Professor Schroeder here before this Tribunal, Dr. Becker-Freyseng. I have the impression from the testimony of Professor Schroeder that you more or less dealt with Professor Schroeder directly without going through any intermediaries. Isn't that the impression he created here?
A I don't believe so. I believe that impression arose because we are sitting next to each other in the dock here without the representatives of the offices in between. Without first speaking to the department chief and the chief of staff I could not go to Schroeder personally or directly.
Q Didn't Schroeder say that whenever any of these research assignment problems came up he always turned that over to Becker-Freyseng, on page 3618 of the transcript?
A It is quite possible that he said that, but I think if you had asked him more exactly just how that was done he would certainly have said that if he, for example, received a report that concerned an aviation medical research assignment, the report went first to the chief of staff, who sent it to the department chief, who sent it me.
Q Well now, I think we have fairly well cleared up the scope of your authority as a Referant. Now, I'd like to know, Dr. Becker-Freyseng, what authority you had over the various institutes of the Luftwaffe, such as the Institute at Adlershof, the Institute at Munich, and various other institutes?
A None at all.
Q But Professor Weltz told me, here on the witness stand, that his subordination was to Luftgau VII - that is, the regional organization of the Luftwaffe in Munich - for disciplinary measures, and to the Office of Anthony for scientific reasons. Don't you recall that? It seems somewhat strange to me that the chief of one of your institutes felt for a number of years that his superior was Anthony, and later Becker-Freyseng, for scientific purposes, and for disciplinary purposes, the Luftgua.
A Let me remind you that Dr. Weltz said in answer to Dr. Tipp's question that this testimony referred to the fact that scientifically, of course, he was subordinate to the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe, and when he said that he was subordinate to Anthony's office he simply wanted to express by so saying that he knew that aviation medical matters were handled in Anthony's Referat.
Q Are you trying to create the impression, Doctor, that Professor Weltz didn't know who he was working for, for five years of six years?
A I said explicitly that Weltz said in answer to Dr. Tipp's question exactly what he meant by that previous testimony.
Q We'll let the Tribunal weigh that.
Were any other institutes subordinate to you, Dr. Becker-Freyseng?
A I just said that no institutes were subordinate to me. Consequently, there were no other institutes that were subordinate to me.
Q This is a good breaking point, Your Honor. I'm going to another subject.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until 9:30 o'clock Tuesday morning.
(A recess was taken until 0930 hours, 27 May 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American MilitaryTribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 27 May 1947, 1015, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I. Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain if the defendants are all present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all defendants are present in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court.
Counsel may proceed.
MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal, before I start the continuation of cross examination I have one problem to take up with the Tribunal. Defense counsel for the defendant Becker-Freyseng has requested that the witness Dr. Eugen Haagen be called before this Tribunal. They have also requested that the case of Becker-Freyseng, Schaefer, and Beiglboeck be completed before Dr. Haagen is called to the stand as a witness in behalf of Becker-Freyseng in as much as they do not want to interrupt the continuity of the sea water evidence. Prosecution is in agreeance with that and, if it meets the approval of the Tribunal, it is suggested that the case of Becker-Freyseng be completed, then the case of the defendant Schaefer, and the defendant Beiglboeck, and then the witness Haagen be called before this Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal adopts the suggestion of counsel and that procedure will be followed.
MR. HARDY: Thank you, Your Honor.
BECKER-FREYSENG - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Doctor, during the course of your direct examination I understood you to say that when you assumed your duties as assistant Referent in the Referat for Aviation Medicine in 1941 that one of your major tasks was the remodeling of low pressure chambers, in as much as low pressure chambers existent in Germany at that time did not meet modern requirements. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Can you kindly tell us whom you engaged to manufacture a new low pressure chamber?
A. I never engaged anyone, but the building of the new low pressure chambers was started by my departmental chief or by whoever has signed that order. A firm was entrusted with that task, Zeuzen at Frankfurt on the Main.
Q. How many low pressure chambers did you order at that time?
A. During my direct examination I explained that in 1941 we were not concerned with ordering new low pressure chambers but with the modernization of those chambers which were already available. I estimate that at that time we had twenty to twenty-five chambers that had to be remodeled that way. During the course of the war we had another few chambers and at the end of the war there were about thirty to thirtyfive chambers.
Q. Then did the manufacture or reconstruction of each chamber take place in this factory in Frankfurt?
A. No, the Frankfurt factory sent their engineers to the place where the low pressure chambers were located, because they were firmly built into the ground. They were so-called immovable chambers and the firm sent a number of men to whatever place the low pressure chamber was located.
Q. Were there any other manufacturers of low pressure chambers other than at the Frankfurt plant?
A. No.
Q. What I am driving at, Dr. Becker-Freyseng, is that I recall that when Ruff needed spare parts for his low pressure chamber it seems to me that he sent his representative to Cologne to secure the spare parts.
Now, who in Cologne would produce or manufacture spare parts for low pressure chambers, or were such parts available in any hardware store, for instance?
A. From my own knowledge I cannot say with what spare parts we were concerned. I am not informed about the particulars in this matter. I do know, however, that the firm Leibold in Cologne manufactured pumps. I assume that when procuring spare parts from Cologne Dr. Ruff turned to the firm Leibold. However, I know no particulars about that.
Q. Now, as I understand it from other conversations with people at Heidelberg, and during your testimony here, that you are decidedly an expert in the field of high altitude research, and I noticed that you are particularly familiar with the construction of low pressure chambers. Now, could you tell me just what particular equipment might go out of order in connection with pumps in a low pressure chamber? For instance, does a pump have anything to do with the barometer, electrocardiogram, realizing fully, doctor, that I am not familiar at all with the mechanics of a low pressure chamber and I am anxious to determine just what might go out of order in connection with a pump so that it would have to be replaced?
A. Well, I may repeat that I don't know in detail what actually went out of order.
Q. Barometer? Would a broken barometer have any connection with pump equipment?
A. I can't determine any direct connection between these two matters.
Q. What is the purpose of the barometer on a low pressure chamber?
A. The barometer serves to determine the exact altitude.
Q. What causes the barometer to rise and fall?
A. The rise and fall of the mercury is caused by the rise and fall of the pressure in the chamber.
Q. And what causes the rise and fall of the pressure in the chamber?
A. The pumps letting in the air or pumping it out again.
Q. And then would it be possible that the manufacturer in Cologne wherein Dr. Ruff attempted to secure spare parts for his pumps -- that barometers for low pressure chambers could be obtained from that source?
A. I wouldn't assume that, because the firm manufacturing such barometers was the firm Fuess in Berlin. I know of no firm for barometers in Cologne.
Q. Now, doctor, in a low pressure chamber can you tell us in the connection with the controls of a low pressure chamber just how far the various barometers and other dials are from one another. That is, relatively how far would the electrocardiogram be from the control and the barometers? Can you attempt to describe to this Tribunal just what the picture is of the equipment which is on a low pressure chamber?
A I must say the following in that connection. The installation of the electrocardiograph was a part of the low pressure chamber. However the electrocardiograph was used for the low pressure chamber, it could be placed at various parts, either inside or outside the chamber. Since I was not personally present during these experiments, I cannot give you any description which would correspond to the truth. In other words, how the various instruments were placed in relation to one another.
Q Could you, for instance, Dr. Becker-Freyseng, conduct an experiment alone? In other words, if you were conducting an experiment and using the electrocardiogram, could you conduct the experiment and manipulate the controls without any assistance?
A I would have to have one technical assistant or an engineer, and I think that then I would be able to perform a normal experiment. At any rate, I did perform numerous of such experiments.
Q Have you ever performed experiments in the course of your work in the field of high altitude -- that is, either prior to the end of the ear or at the Aero Medical Center in Heidelberg -- and used the electrocardiograph?
A Yes. I think that was before the war. I may draw your attention to one thing, however. From the description which Dr. Romberg gave here, about the way how the electrograph he was using worked, it became evident to me that this was a special model not used by us in our institute. This was an instrument where the cardiac output could be observed through a tube.
Q Just what is the express purpose, Doctor -- I want to get your definition of the express purpose of an electrocardiograph? What does it tell us?
A The purpose of an electrocardiograph is to register the electrical currents produced through the work of the heart.
Q Can you tell from the study of the electrocardiograph whether or not a person in a low pressure chamber, undergoing an experiment, is in danger?
AAs I already said before, I never performed any experiments, where we could observe danger for our experimental subjects by means of the electrocardiograph. We used other methods in order to make that observation. After what I heard here from Dr. Romberg on the witness stand, I know, or I can confirm, that by means of the electrocardiograph one is in a position to carry out such an examination.
Q Well, prior to the war -- to the end of the war, pardon me, what was the highest altitude that any of your experiments had attained? Did you go up to 20,000 meters in your experiments ever, prior to the end of the war?
A I personally was engaged in other experiments and my highest altitude was only 15 kilometers.
Q Now, Doctor, these low pressure chambers, they were under the control of the referent, is that correct, for Aviation Medicine?
A Yes, after they were taken over by us.
Q Now, that was in 1941? The low pressure chambers were taken over by your office; that is, the office of Anthony?
A Now, this is not exactly right. That was already earlier. The low pressure chambers which had been taken over by the Medical Inspectorate, and that also held true in peace, were handled by the referat for Aviation Medicine.
Q Did you have any further connection or authority over the allocation of the low pressure chamber after you had once assigned it to a particular institute?
A No.
Q Then, in other words, when you assigned a low pressure chamber to, say, Ruff's Institute, to Institute Weltz, or to the institute at Rechlin, where Benzinger was the commanding officer, after the assignment then you had no further ado with that low pressure chamber? Is that it?
A No.
Q Suppose Dr. Ruff wanted to send the low pressure chamber to Rechlin? Benzinger called him on the telephone and said: "Dr. Ruff, I'd like to use your low pressure chamber for two or three weeks."
Could Dr. Ruff transfer the low pressure chamber to the Institute at Rechlin without superior orders?
A That is something different again. The institutes and the other smaller research stations had their own low pressure chambers which were firmly installed. In Dr. Ruff's case we are concerned with a very special type of chamber, a motorized mobile chamber. The German Luftwaffe only had four of such mobile motorized chambers. Dr. Ruff explained here, in detail, that the low pressure chamber which was at his disposal for some time had been furnished to him on the basis of a very special approval by the Medical Inspector Professor Hippke. It was naturally furnished to him and to his institute and had he, for instance, wanted to transport this chamber to Dr. Benzinger at Rechlin he would have had to ask for permission for that from Professor Hippke.
Q And, of course, professor Hippke would then consult with you inasmuch as you were his expert on low pressure chambers?
A Yes, normally that would have to be assumed.
Q Well, did he consult with you when Ruff asked to transfer the low pressure chamber to Dachau?
A No, he didn't do that.
Q That's rather unusual, isn't it?
A It wasn't unusual in that case because this chamber had not yet been taken over by the Medical Inspectorate officially. Dr. Ruff had explained, and I can only repeat it, that this chamber had been sent to the German Experimental Institute for Aviation from the firm Zeuzen in order to be equipped there with their latest equipment, such as breathing and communication equipment, and I as the competent referent for these questions, took over this chamber at the end of July or during the first days of August, 1942, in collaboration with a captain of the Medical Corps, Dr. Ernst Kellersmann, who confirmed this fact through an affidavit which Dr. Ruff has already submitted.
Q Well then, if I understand you correctly, Doctor, the mobile low pressure chamber at Ruff's institute at Berlin-Adlershof was not under the supervision of the Medical Inspectorate until July, 1942?
Is that correct?
AAt any rate, not under the supervision of the referat Aviation Medicine. After what I heard here, the Medical Inspector had to send the approval for the transfer of these chambers from Berlin to Munich.
Q Well now, when did you become -- on what date -- the day and month -- did you become Assistant Referent in the referat for Aviation Medicine?
A I believe that was the 8th of August, 1941.
Q And you then assumed, as one of your more important tasks, this low pressure chamber business, is that right?
A I believe I explained it in detail that I considered one of my main tasks to be the modernization of the low pressure chambers.
Q Then, every low pressure chamber in the Luftwaffe was of interest to you, was it not?
A I believe that one word was lost during the interpretation and it was the word "ortsfest", immobile.
Q Well then, in other words, you had nothing to do with the mobile low pressure chambers? No jurisdiction over those whatsoever?
A. In that connection I have to tell you the following: the immobile low pressure chambers had all been built before the war, and for that reason were built in correspondence to the research regulations as they prevailed before the war as to their resistance to high altitude. During his inspecttion in the year 19?1 Dr. Ruff had found out that these old immobile low pressure chambers no longer sufficed for modern requirements. The modernizing of these immobile low pressure chambers became my main task. The mobile low pressure chambers on the other hand were all built during the beginning of the War. For that reason they all complied with these requirements I just mentioned, so that it was no longer necessary to remodel these mobile low pressure chambers. In addition, the low pressure chambers were all subordinated to the air fleet, were ommitted by the air fleet in order to examine and instruct the pilots of the various flying units. From the moment when by order of the Medical Inspectorate I took over this low pressure chamber, together with Captain Kellersmann, this low pressure chamber had also been subordinated to an air fleet, and after a short stay in the Alps for research purposes was sent for lecture purposes to the Troops.
Q. Well, then in summation, Doctor, after August 1941 you had jurisdiction over the permanent low pressure chambers, but did not have any authority over the mobile low pressure chambers and would not have jurisdiction in any manner whatsoever over the low pressure chamber used at Dachau until July 1942, but that prior to that time the jurisdiction over that mobile chamber was purely in the hands of Ruff and Hippke, is that correct?
A. This entails such an enormous amount of individual questions that I cannot possibly answer it with just one answer.
Q. You can answer just one of them; first of all I will ask them individually; after August 1941 you were assigned the task of remodeling low pressure chambers for the Luftwaffe, is that correct?
A. Yes, this task was assigned to me.
Q. That duty assignment did not include work on mobile low pressure chambers?
A. No, not on motorized low pressure chambers.
Q. When was the first time that you had anything to do with low pressure chambers, that is mobile low pressure chambers?
A. Do you mean when I for the first time had anything to do with mobile low pressure?
Q. At any rate when did you have any jurisdiction over ----- when did you have any authority as referent in the referat over these mobile low pressure chambers?
A. You mean the mobile ones don't you?
Q. The mobile?
Q. As far as I remember that was approximately at the end of July 1942. When, in collaboration with the already mentioned Captain Kellersmann, I took over the low pressure convoy for Dr. Ruff.
Q. Alright, then you had jurisdiction over the mobile low pressure chambers -- pardon me. We will qualify it, Doctor -- you had jurisdiction over the single mobile low pressure chamber used at Dachau prior to July 1942?
A. I can only tell you what I heard here. I heard that Dr. Ruff obtained the approval for the use of these chambers from Professor Hippke. In other words, at that time he didn't consider himself competent enough to send this chamber to Dachau on his own initiative, but obtained Hippke's approval for that.
Q. Then Ruff and Hippke had jurisdiction over the low pressure chamber and consider it in the same light as an orphan child?
A. It was no orphan child. I would designate this circumstance as the birth of the child.
Q. Alright. We will go on, Doctor. In connection with your testimony concerning research assignments within the Luftwaffe, whenever a research assignment order was issued, and at this point I will not quibble with you about the originator of the orders, that is the person with authority to give the orders, but when a research assignment was issued, who supplied the funds to carry out that assignment?
A. The funds were supplied by the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe, and after the 1st of April 1944 that was done by the Office of the Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe.
Q. Didn't your chief have anything to do with the funds at all?
A. The Referat of Aviation Medicine had nothing to do with the funds. There was a Referat Budget with its own administration staff, and it was only the task of the Fererent for Aviation Medicine to solve the question in cooperation with the Budget Referent whether there was anything against the reason given for any research work, and the Budget Referent then confirmed his approval by making a sign on the original research assignment to that effect.
Q. Now, just a moment, Doctor, it is my understanding that all research assignments in the field of Aviation Medicine had to pass through the Referat for Aviation Medicine Office after May 1944, and prior to that time the Office of Anthony who approved------
A. May I interrupt you shortly. I think you were saying May 1944, were you?
Q. Yes. Now who approved the allocation of funds for the particular research which was ordered by the Chief of the Medical Services or by your office?
A. In that connection I may point out to you that my Referat did not order the furnishing of these funds, but only suggested them. The approval for such funds was reserved for the Medical Chief himself.
Q. Now, we are getting down to something, Doctor. Then after it was determined that a research assignment should be made in the field of Aviation Medicine, the approval for the assignment would be made by your office, is that correct, because Professor Shroeder certainly couldn't study all these things. He was a busy man. You would have to study the assignment and determine whether or not it was necessary at this time, inasmuch as you had a lack of manpower and a war going on; now, the research assignment must have been approved in the Referat for Aviation Medicine wasn't it?
A. I don't quite understand what you said. Did you say it was my task to approve all research assignments.
Q. Who approved the research assignment wherein it was necessary to allocate funds to carry it out, who approved those?
A. The approval for any research assignment was reserved for the Medical Chief and before for the Medical Inspector. It was the task of the Referat to furnish the necessary data in order to make that decision.
Q. In other words, the Referat would suggest what decision should be made? Now, in your position as Referat after May 1944 did you have the power to pay sums of money for experimental purposes?
A. In my capacity as Referat with the Chief of Medical Services I did not have such authority.
Q. Did your Chief, that is Professor Schroeder, know of what you were doing, did he have any idea of what your duties were?
A. I would assume that.
Q. He tells me that you had the power of Attorney, nevertheless, to pay sums of money for experimental purposes?
A. Can you tell me about the connection in which Professor Schroeder made that statement. I think there must be an error. Not a single referent could place his signature to a grant of funds. That could only be done by the Chief of the Medical Services for any annual grants.
Q. Then it is your contention that Professor Schroeder did not know his job; is that it,
A. I would rather believe that there must have been some other misunderstanding during your conversation with Professor Schroeder. I am sure that Professor Schroeder was very well versed with his task and no error could have been possible.
Q. Well, now, in these research assignments, Doctor, when did you first report to Professor Rostock concerning research assignments of the Luftwaffe?
A. I remember one time, that was in the summer of 1944, when we sent a list of all research assignments to Professor Rostock' office. I cannot give you the exact date, it could either have been in July or August 1944.
Q. Why did you send reports to Rostock's office?
A. If I remember correctly, I was ordered to do so by my medical chief, Professor Schroeder. I don't believe there was a request made by Rostock's office, however, I can no longer tell with certainty.
Q. Well, now, you received an order from your medical chief to send reports to Rostock in 1944; is that correct?
A. I probably did not get this order personally from my medical chief, but I got it from my departmental chief, however, in the final analysis it did come from him.
Q. Did you understand at that time that Rostock's position was chief of science and research of the Reichscommissar for Health and Sanitation under Dr. Brandt?
A. I think that I knew that at that time.
Q. How often did you send reports to Rostock?
A. Such collective reports, as the report concerning the 97 research assignments, was only sent out once as far as I remember by the office of the chief of the Medical Services. Later on copies of newly issued research assignments were sent to Professor Rostock's office.
Q. Then you sent a collective report for the first time to Rostock in 1944 and thereafter you sent him a copy of each research order; is that right?
A. Yes, he received a copy of those research assignments issued later. There were only very, very few, however.
Q. Did you send him a report on the sea-water experiments?
A. I am sure that I did not, because that was no research assignment.
Q. Did Rostock have any reason to know about the sea-water experiments?
A. I know of no such reasons.
Q. Were you ever at a meeting concerning the sea-water experiments and at such meeting a representative of Rostock was present?
A. It is possible that at the last meeting that took place I think at the end of September 1944 at the Flakturm at the Zoo, when Professor Beiglboeck was speaking about the cause and the results of experiments, a representative of Professor Rostock was present. This is quite possible. I know for certain, however, that Professor Rostock was not personally present.
Q. Do you know whether or not your predecessor, Anthony, sent reports to Rostock?
A. No, I know nothing of that.
Q. You don't exclude the possibility, however?
A. It is highly impossible because Rostock's office came into appearance only in the year of 1944.
Q. It came into appearance in January of 1943, didn't it, Doctor, actively?
A. I cannot say that. It was only in the summer of 1944 that I learned of the office of Rostock.
Q. Looking at the evidence here, we see the authority for the status of the office was given in 1943?
A. Yes, I believe I remember having heard of here, but it always takes some time before any such office starts working.
Q. It takes a whole year?
A. Well, I can only say that from my point of view and as far as I could see, I only know of Rostock's office in the year of 1944.
Q. Well, now these research assignments which were ordered by the chief of the medical service or by the medical inspectorate, accompanying the assignment a certain amount of money was allocated; what did you direct or what did the Medical Inspectorate direct the researchers to do in the way of reporting? Did you have some check on just what was happening to your money,
A. Yes.
Q. How often did you request the particular scientist; how often did you require reports from the particular scientist?
A. Are you now speaking about reports regarding the research or regarding the use of the money?
Q. Regarding the use of the money.
A. The accounts regarding the money were made at the end of the budget year after the money had been used. Only such amount of money was distributed as was expected to be used during the course of one year.
Q. How often did you require them to report on the results of their research?
A. Most of the research men were asked to send half yearly reports, however this was not done in every case because considering the situation at that time there may not have been anything to report every half year. Enough confidence was placed in the various research workers and it was assumed that they would report any way had they found anything worth while, however, it was stated on the research assignments that they were requested to send in reports every half year/
Q. Doctor, when did you first hear of the high altitude experiments at Dachau?